AMG Driver Video

[Golfbeat]

Another quality video and so timely!

 

 

 

[KD1]

At the 7min 30sec mark they show an overhead gears view. In the takeaway the avatar's hips slightly open to the target to pull the club away before rotating and re-centering. What do y'all think about this tiny hip opening move in general?

 

I have to ask because I suddenly started doing this little move about 2 weeks ago and don't know that I've heard any one talk about it much. This view shows exactly what I felt I was doing in my mind's eye anyway. This is the Henrik Stenson takeway, correct?

Edited August 28, 2023 by KD1

[jonsnow]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

At the 7min 30sec mark they show an overhead gears view. In the takeaway the avatar's hips slightly open to the target to pull the club away before rotating and re-centering. What do y'all think about this tiny hip opening move in general?

 

I have to ask because I suddenly started doing this little move about 2 weeks ago and don't know that I've heard any one talk about it much. This view shows exactly what I felt I was doing in my mind's eye anyway. This is the Henrik Stenson takeway, correct?

I've noticed as I push off my left side to shift pressure to my trail side per Dr. Kwon, my left hip opens slightly. 

[virtuoso]

A great piece of info is the act of shifting back to the left without triggering forward rotation....and super advanced is slight continued hip wind up as you fall back toward the target. You never, ever see an amateur doing that. Ever.

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

A great piece of info is the act of shifting back to the left without triggering forward rotation....and super advanced is slight continued hip wind up as you fall back toward the target. You never, ever see an amateur doing that. Ever.

Ya it’s kind of a rubbing your belly and patting your head thing and IMO possibly the most counterintuitive move in the swing. It’s not that difficult to execute once understood, but if it is difficult it’s because of the impulse we all posses to hit the gas pedal too early. 

 

A lot of the debates on here are about sequencing and “what happens and when”
 

My take is:
 

Dynamic golf swings start with hitting the gas to some degree in the takeaway and then float “to the top” while backswing and transition pieces are happening at the same time. 

 

The alternative start with a flat footed, clubhead first, slow, mechanical takeaway that’s varies swing to swing, reach some sort of “top” followed by their firing impulse. Could be arms, could be butt or shoulder spinning. 
 

In that case they hit the gas pedal with their arms or their rotation before any of what @virtuoso explained, happens. We can do “stuff” with the arms and the body, but pushing the the gas pedal to the floor too early is why so many stink. Many don’t really have any sort of transition piece and they don’t know that a lot of it happens while the shoulders are still turning in the backswing. 
 

That’s generally why I disagree with some of the “fire the arms sooner” band aids because it often doesn’t get to the real problem. 

[virtuoso]

49 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

That’s generally why I disagree with some of the “fire the arms sooner” band aids because it often doesn’t get to the real problem. 

 

Agreed in the sense that if you were doing the medicine ball throw downrange (or even into the ground at p7.5) you wouldn't actually drop your arms down to P6 truly independently. There is other work going on--the debate centers around how much work and what type of work. And the various tribes have gone to their corners. In the same room with real people talking to each other, there is more agreement than expressed through keyboardery.

Edited August 28, 2023 by virtuoso

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

 

Agreed in the sense that if you were doing the medicine ball throw downrange (or even into the ground at p7.5) you wouldn't actually drop your arms down to P6 truly independently. There is other work going on--the debate centers around how much work and what type of work. And the various tribes have gone to their corners. In the same room with real people talking to each other, there is more agreement than expressed through keyboardery.

Yes and it’s all about what makes sense to people.  If you believe in the work of Dr. David Wright, which I do, you can’t tell a lower core person upper body feels and vice versa.

 

In this vein, to discount the “feel” of arms working down independently is very short sighted when you have the likes of Tiger Woods, Justin Rose, Bryson Dechambeau and Padraig Harrington saying so. 
 

Most tour players are mid core and you can tell them about any feel and they will make it work.  
 

Most human beings are upper, most golfers have been inundated with all lower body feels.  You could make a case that’s why most golfers have their arms trailing in the sequence.  
 

If you have spent thousands of hours on the lesson tee, your own feel biases are persuaded to change. Eliminating one avenue of thought, limits how many people you can assist.

 

Keyboardery….I’m stealing that.

[johnrobison]

Just in case anyone skimmed over it...

 

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

to discount the “feel” of arms working down independently is very short sighted when you have the likes of Tiger Woods, Justin Rose, Bryson Dechambeau and Padraig Harrington saying so.

 

[Hilts1969]

11 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

Another quality video and so timely!

 

 

 

 

Good stuff 

[Zitlow]

People lose the stretch too early by coming over the top in an effort to swing down the target line.

 

He isn't artificially holding his shoulders back, he's directing the energy to right field.   

 

Walter Hagen

 

 

 

[chrisf60526]

Keep these videos coming.  My driver is killing me.  

[golf-RN]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

People lose the stretch too early by coming over the top in an effort to swing down the target line.

 

He isn't artificially holding his shoulders back, he's directing the energy to right field.   

 

Walter Hagen

 

 

 

I think the magic move is the cigarette, when it burns the lead shoulder, it is instinctive to move the lead shoulder down then up and back out of the way lol

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, johnrobison said:

Just in case anyone skimmed over it...

 

 

 

Ben Hogan says to start the downswing with the lower body

 

Freddie couples says he goes as hard as he can with his hips in the downswing

 

Cameron Champ says he tries to get his bet buckle to the target as soon as possible in the downswing

 

Jordan Spieth says he tries to turn and burn in the downswing 

 

I could list more..

 

Just like Justin Rose, these golfers are all describing their individual feels.

 

My point was specifically in regard to how @virtuoso said he’s never, ever seen an amateur with a transition piece as he describes it. In that case, if you try to fix a butt or shoulder spinner by firing the arms, you are trading one early impulse for another. 

[jonsnow]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes and it’s all about what makes sense to people.  If you believe in the work of Dr. David Wright, which I do, you can’t tell a lower core person upper body feels and vice versa.

 

In this vein, to discount the “feel” of arms working down independently is very short sighted when you have the likes of Tiger Woods, Justin Rose, Bryson Dechambeau and Padraig Harrington saying so. 
 

Most tour players are mid core and you can tell them about any feel and they will make it work.  
 

Most human beings are upper, most golfers have been inundated with all lower body feels.  You could make a case that’s why most golfers have their arms trailing in the sequence.  
 

If you have spent thousands of hours on the lesson tee, your own feel biases are persuaded to change. Eliminating one avenue of thought, limits how many people you can assist.

 

Keyboardery….I’m stealing that.

Here's how you attribute keyboardery properly:

First time you use it, "As viruoso once said..."

Seond time you useit, "I heard a guy say one time..."

Third & every time thereafter, "Like I always say..."

[virtuoso]

10 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

Here's how you attribute keyboardery properly:

First time you use it, "As viruoso once said..."

Seond time you useit, "I heard a guy say one time..."

Third & every time thereafter, "Like I always say..."

That works for me.

 

Tomorrow’s word of the day is: Jargoneer

Edited August 29, 2023 by virtuoso

[virtuoso]

Wow, I thought I invented both keyboardery and Jagoneer. Nope, I just looked them up—they already exist. But the official definitions are exactly as I envisioned they should be.

 

Keyboardery: The act of playing a piano (or other keyboard instrument) in order to impress someone or to attract attention, especially if said playing is loud and obnoxious.

 

Jargoneer: 

jargoneer (plural jargoneers)

1. (rare, sometimes capitalized) A person who uses a great deal of jargon when speaking or writing, especially one who seems to relish such a manner of expression.

Use example, “No Mr Havencamp, you are not shifting your weight; you are moving your center of pressure such that you can create more vertical force.”

 

[MK7Golf21]

15 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Wow, I thought I invented both keyboardery and Jagoneer. Nope, I just looked them up—they already exist. But the official definitions are exactly as I envisioned they should be.

 

Keyboardery: The act of playing a piano (or other keyboard instrument) in order to impress someone or to attract attention, especially if said playing is loud and obnoxious.

 

Jargoneer: 

jargoneer (plural jargoneers)

1. (rare, sometimes capitalized) A person who uses a great deal of jargon when speaking or writing, especially one who seems to relish such a manner of expression.

Use example, “No Mr Havencamp, you are not shifting your weight; you are moving your center of pressure such that you can create more vertical force.”

 

jargoneer, that’s a good one for most golf instruction these days. 

[virtuoso]

2 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

jargoneer, that’s a good one for most golf instruction these days. 

No one will turn a 10 hdcp into a 15 faster than a Jargoneer.

[naj959]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Ya it’s kind of a rubbing your belly and patting your head thing and IMO possibly the most counterintuitive move in the swing. It’s not that difficult to execute once understood, but if it is difficult it’s because of the impulse we all posses to hit the gas pedal too early. 

 

A lot of the debates on here are about sequencing and “what happens and when”
 

My take is:
 

Dynamic golf swings start with hitting the gas to some degree in the takeaway and then float “to the top” while backswing and transition pieces are happening at the same time. 

 

The alternative start with a flat footed, clubhead first, slow, mechanical takeaway that’s varies swing to swing, reach some sort of “top” followed by their firing impulse. Could be arms, could be butt or shoulder spinning. 
 

In that case they hit the gas pedal with their arms or their rotation before any of what @virtuoso explained, happens. We can do “stuff” with the arms and the body, but pushing the the gas pedal to the floor too early is why so many stink. Many don’t really have any sort of transition piece and they don’t know that a lot of it happens while the shoulders are still turning in the backswing. 
 

That’s generally why I disagree with some of the “fire the arms sooner” band aids because it often doesn’t get to the real problem. 

I tend to hit a few pulls every round and spin the shoulders open too fast. What you wrote really struck a chord with me. In theory, if I start transitioning while my shoulders are still turning back it should be near impossible to open them too fast? Never thought of it that way but it makes sense to me. Thanks. 

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

Ben Hogan says to start the downswing with the lower body

 

Freddie couples says he goes as hard as he can with his hips in the downswing

 

Cameron Champ says he tries to get his bet buckle to the target as soon as possible in the downswing

 

Jordan Spieth says he tries to turn and burn in the downswing 

 

I could list more..

 

Just like Justin Rose, these golfers are all describing their individual feels.

 

My point was specifically in regard to how @virtuoso said he’s never, ever seen an amateur with a transition piece as he describes it. In that case, if you try to fix a butt or shoulder spinner by firing the arms, you are trading one early impulse for another. 

Of course. That's mostly what we have to describe what we're doing. Feels. No disagreement at all with that and with Hogan, Couples, or anyone else feeling what they feel. Or with what a good sequence is. But when I feel that I have to move my arms sooner than my impulse says to, it's not a bandaid - it's the feel I have to have to produce a good sequence.

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

But when I feel that I have to move my arms sooner than my impulse says to, it's not a bandaid - it's the feel I have to have to produce a good sequence.

The big difference is that the feel of moving the arms, doing things with the arms and doing things with wrists and “firing the arms” are not the same thing.  

“Firing the arms” which I’ve heard for 10 years on here, is talked about as a fix for those who are supposedly “firing the body” — firing happens in the downswing.  
 

Beginners often think the swing is “backswing-downswing” many who have learned on the internet think it’s “backswing-transition-downswing” which is almost, if not equally as bad. It’s really something like “backswing-transition-more backswing-downswing” 

 

Most amateurs are missing any semblance of a good transition. Transition sets the stage to fire. Trying to band aid the lack of a transition by firing something earlier makes things worse. That’s the root of the problem in the first place. This is what most amateurs do already.

 

[MPStrat]

7 hours ago, naj959 said:

In theory, if I start transitioning while my shoulders are still turning back it should be near impossible to open them too fast? 

I like how you are thinking
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by MPStrat

[Nard_S]

11 hours ago, MPStrat said:

if you try to fix a butt or shoulder spinner by firing the arms, you are trading one early impulse for another. 

Not at all. Everything involved is re-calibrated. The transition has to get slower and done earlier and there needs added patience to allow arms to fire to right spot. The hip firing, the shoulder firing gets  slightly delayed, so in essence it's all smoother.The intent to fire hands/arms sets things correct and puts everything in proper perspective. Sequencing never changed  but the rhythm, amplitude & cadence does. A lot of disagreement here is a language barrier thing.  

 

The "hold the hands up" approach has limited merit and  has had people doing bad things for a long time. It's warped my idea of good swing and glad I don't listen to it anymore.

[virtuoso]

It amazes me that people have such strict allegiances to certain "feels."

 

It is probably not likely that anyone, including tour pro's, have feel directly and precisely aligned with reality.

Edited August 29, 2023 by virtuoso

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

The "hold the hands up" approach has limited merit and  has had people doing bad things for a long time. It's warped my idea of good swing and glad I don't listen to it anymore.

 

I’m not arguing for your misunderstanding of  “hold the hands up” 

 

What I am doing is agreeing with Jack Nicklaus that you can’t release the club too soon *as long as you get to your left side first* However, “getting to your left side” is oversimplified and I would say you can’t release the club too soon as long as you have a good “transition” that happens in the backswing, first. The overwhelming majority of ams don’t have this. Firing impulses don’t fix that problem, they make it worse.

[johnrobison]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

The big difference is that the feel of moving the arms, doing things with the arms and doing things with wrists and “firing the arms” are not the same thing.  

“Firing the arms” which I’ve heard for 10 years on here, is talked about as a fix for those who are supposedly “firing the body” — firing happens in the downswing.  
 

Beginners often think the swing is “backswing-downswing” many who have learned on the internet think it’s “backswing-transition-downswing” which is almost, if not equally as bad. It’s really something like “backswing-transition-more backswing-downswing” 

 

Most amateurs are missing any semblance of a good transition. Transition sets the stage to fire. Trying to band aid the lack of a transition by firing something earlier makes things worse. That’s the root of the problem in the first place. This is what most amateurs do already.

 

I agree that what many people perceive when they see a good player swing isn't exactly what's happening. I don't disagree with the sequencing of events. But that's all a very academic understanding that's almost irrelevant to the student when you're standing on the practice tee trying to help them make better contact.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, johnrobison said:

I don't disagree with the sequencing of events. But that's all a very academic understanding that's almost irrelevant to the student when you're standing on the practice tee trying to help them make better contact.

If someone wants to reach a higher level of ball striking, they need to understand it from an academic perspective but also have the ability to understand it and execute within the context of their own swing. 

[virtuoso]

31 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I agree that what many people perceive when they see a good player swing isn't exactly what's happening. I don't disagree with the sequencing of events. But that's all a very academic understanding that's almost irrelevant to the student when you're standing on the practice tee trying to help them make better contact.

Point A: What the player is actually doing.

Point B: What the player should be actually doing.

A to B: The teacher finding the right "feel" language to get the player to actually change. It would be nice if the teacher knew what was actually happening. The feel is different for different players.

Edited August 29, 2023 by virtuoso

[Nard_S]

57 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I’m not arguing for your misunderstanding of  “hold the hands up” 

 

What I am doing is agreeing with Jack Nicklaus that you can’t release the club too soon *as long as you get to your left side first* However, “getting to your left side” is oversimplified and I would say you can’t release the club too soon as long as you have a good “transition” that happens in the backswing, first. The overwhelming majority of ams don’t have this. Firing impulses don’t fix that problem, they make it worse.

In agreement with everything except your last statement.

 

However you desire to see it, you will always fire the hands, you can pretend it doesn't happen but it does anyway, so it's a question of when & how hard and is the body working along with it  to that end. 

 

And if your too lazy about it all, or just disconnected, it becomes a synchronized swimming thing where you magically time everything to get straight path and face and that dispersion will keep you frustrated and ball speed will be luke warm to boot. The compensations needed will have you circling the drain of suckage forever too. I lived it.

 

If you acknowledge the importance of hand speed, then you can gear all other things towards enabling it to high success. It's actually a simpler perspective to work from. It's not be all, it's starting point to work from. So firing impulses matter a ton.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Nard_S

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

In agreement with everything except your last statement.

 

However you desire to see it, you will always fire the hands, you can pretend it doesn't happen but it does anyway, so it's a question of when & how hard and is the body working along with it  to that end. 

 

And if your too lazy about that  it all, or just disconnected, it becomes a synchronized swimming thing where you magically time everything to get straight path and face and that dispersion will keep you frustrated and ball speed will be luke warm to boot. The compensations needed will have you circling the drain of suckage forever too. I lived it.

 

If you acknowledge the importance of hand speed, then you can gear all other things towards enabling it to high success. It's actually a simpler perspective to work from. It's not be all, it's starting point to work from. So firing impulses matter a ton.

Just to clear it up for me, what precisely does "firing the hands" mean?