Clubface square or closed to the intermediate target?

[ShawLF]

5 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Ball going left, you'll think to swing in to out more if you're a drawer. You'll think to pull harder left and hold the face open if you're a fader.

right. I think if we talked about swing direction and AoA (and not path) this would be more clear to people. Problem is that most launch monitors don't show swing direction and low point, so we're all stuck talking about path.

[Deadaimz]

For what it is worth my buddy hits his full iron shots with his face closed at address. He is a very good golfer and it works for him.

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, ShawLF said:

right. I think if we talked about swing direction and AoA (and not path) this would be more clear to people. Problem is that most launch monitors don't show swing direction and low point, so we're all stuck talking about path.

I'm going to guess that about 2% of typical golfers understand aoa and swing direction variables. And only .1 of those 2% truly understand it. 

 

Path is easy to understand. But yeah, AoA, specifically, is an area where compensations will be made...or more specifically, low point...

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

For what it is worth my buddy hits his full iron shots with his face closed at address. He is a very good golfer and it works for him.

Yep, you very much can. But you can definitely make it harder on yourself.

 

But like anything in this game, if you can figure out how to make the ball do what you want and you can make that same move over and over and over then let it ride.

 

Furyk

Ray Floyd

Moe Norman

Deadaimz's friend...

 

Kind of like those t-shirts in the 90s

 

Paris

Rome

London

"Insert your podunk hometown"

[Zitlow]

The forward press doesn't just kickstart the swing it also gives you a preview of impact if you allow your hands and arms to press forward with the lower body. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

31 minutes ago, ShawLF said:

Do you feel that your club face is more "open" on wedges vs. a 4i at address?

 

Per my post above path is a byproduct of swing direction, AoA and low point. Assuming a constant swing direction, a wedge ball position is farther back and swing plane and AoA are steeper (making path more to the right), so the face must be more open at impact to hit a straight shot vs a 4i.   

 

I wouldn't say so, but also my swing tendencies (as a righty) lead to a more rightward path (or swing direction) with my longer clubs. Possibly ingrained from years of playing but I know I can pretty reliably put the club on the ball and get the flight and shape I want and with my setup I'm simply looking to allow that to happen. More closed leads to nothing but disaster for me and my own tendencies.

[MPStrat]

Closing the face at address is essentially tricking yourself into a stronger grip. This might be terrible or it might not.

 

But you can't really do anything at address to cheat the dynamics of the golf swing at full speed.

[Chunkitgood]

16 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

This has been discussed before, but I'd like to settle this debate once and for all if possible.

 

Please make sure that you fully understand the concept before making half-baked comments like "you'll be hooking it all day", or "that's just a band aid for a bigger swing flaw", etc. I'm bringing up a legit idea as proposed by a PGA professional.

 

I would like to leave swing path itself out of the argument. For all intents and purposes, the swing path is down the line or very near to down the line. There's no need to nitpick the little nuances of swing path.

 

Like many of you, I've been aiming the irons directly at an intermediate target for well over a decade. The argument presented directly challenges the validity of doing this.

 

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

 

Here's the logic behind the argument:

• Impact position is drastically different from address position.
• A good impact position will almost always have some amount of forward shaft lean.
• Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.
• If the face is closed to the intermediate target at address, it will square up to it at impact because of forward shaft lean.
• If the face is squared up to the intermediate target at address, you most often should end up with a push because of forward shaft lean at impact.

 

Feel free to comment and get involved regardless of your ability, but I'm hoping to get comments from skilled golfers and those who have knowledge of the concept.

 

A lot to unpack here.

 

Not worth it, except to say that’s why a golf grip is what it is, “strong” to some degree.

 

Suggestion:

 

Try it out, see if it works.

 

Although…They say Nicklaus used an intermediate target because he did not see so good.

 

 

[Nels55]

17 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

This has been discussed before, but I'd like to settle this debate once and for all if possible.

 

Please make sure that you fully understand the concept before making half-baked comments like "you'll be hooking it all day", or "that's just a band aid for a bigger swing flaw", etc. I'm bringing up a legit idea as proposed by a PGA professional.

 

I would like to leave swing path itself out of the argument. For all intents and purposes, the swing path is down the line or very near to down the line. There's no need to nitpick the little nuances of swing path.

 

Like many of you, I've been aiming the irons directly at an intermediate target for well over a decade. The argument presented directly challenges the validity of doing this.

 

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

 

Here's the logic behind the argument:

• Impact position is drastically different from address position.
• A good impact position will almost always have some amount of forward shaft lean.
• Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.
• If the face is closed to the intermediate target at address, it will square up to it at impact because of forward shaft lean.
• If the face is squared up to the intermediate target at address, you most often should end up with a push because of forward shaft lean at impact.

 

Feel free to comment and get involved regardless of your ability, but I'm hoping to get comments from skilled golfers and those who have knowledge of the concept.

 

I developed a tendency to setup with the face closed without realizing it and it took a while to train my eye using an alignment aid to get the face square at setup.  With face closed I tended to pull hook my shots and since I worked to square up my alignment I am hitting the ball straighter.  This is just another case of every golfer is different and requires different setup and swing parameters.  There is no one right way to setup and swing, its all about matchups. 

 

Also path is something that I work on constantly as I tend to vary a lot from inside out to outside in depending on how I am swinging.  Just another case of differences between golfers.  

[ShawLF]

25 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I wouldn't say so, but also my swing tendencies (as a righty) lead to a more rightward path (or swing direction) with my longer clubs. Possibly ingrained from years of playing but I know I can pretty reliably put the club on the ball and get the flight and shape I want and with my setup I'm simply looking to allow that to happen. More closed leads to nothing but disaster for me and my own tendencies.

I'm the same way - otherwise I get too much of a fade with long irons. My sense is that the best players either set up a little more closed and/or add more hip depth in the downswing to shift their swing direction more to the right with longer irons. Trackman publishes some combine numbers. Here are JTs. While they don't publish swing direction/face/path/AoA, you can see that with shorter shots he's working the launch direction both ways. But with shots 160 yds and longer launch direction is consistently to the right for every shot.

 

https://dk-9a31.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/The-Justin-Thomas-TrackMan-Combine.pdf

 

 

[Smash Factors]

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

...for this to be true you would have to remove so many human variables as to make the conclusion only applicable to robots and a very small minority of golfers. Face orientation at address alone does not have a great correlation with face orientation throughout the swing.

 

 

It would have to apply to many golfers though.

 

Regardless of skill level, most everyone has shaft lean at impact that wasn't there at address, and there's not a tremendous difference between face angle at address and face angle at impact. It does change though via shaft lean. The angle of the face ends up very near to what it was at address, so we can just ignore all the "human variables" and what is happening throughout the swing. If there was a huge difference between the two then those variables become more critical for this discussion.

 

This is also why path isn't so important in this discussion. We're talking about where the club is at address and where it ends up at impact. You could be swinging on many different paths. It would not change the fact that the face opens at impact via shaft lean.

[ShawLF]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I'm going to guess that about 2% of typical golfers understand aoa and swing direction variables. And only .1 of those 2% truly understand it. 

 

Path is easy to understand. But yeah, AoA, specifically, is an area where compensations will be made...or more specifically, low point...

 

yeah you're probably correct about that. What's interesting to me is that no one needs to explain to a kid how to draw or fade a soccer ball, tennis ball, hockey puck, etc (I didn't play golf until recently so that may be true of golf as well). But give an adult a golf club and they often can't figure it out - especially across the different clubs in their bag. My long irons were wipey fades that just fizzled in the last 1/5th of the flight. My coach explaining that I needed a more negative AoA was all I needed to turn that into a draw that I could control.

 

[Smash Factors]

4 hours ago, ShawLF said:

Seems the confusion around this topic probably comes from analyzing the swing in 2-D, and not considering the fact that the club is swung on a 3-D plane.

 

I think you're making things too complicated.

 

The face is more open at impact because of the position of our body and forward shaft lean.

 

After you address the ball, you can take a preview of your impact position by imitating it, and then go back into a normal address position. You'll see the difference between the two.

[ShawLF]

3 minutes ago, Smash Factors said:

After you address the ball, you can take a preview of your impact position by imitating it, and then go back into a normal address position. You'll see the difference between the two.

 

yeah I understand more where you're coming from. Address vs. impact is the point you're making. Maybe this is akin to putting where someone that closes the face more in the back stroke than opening it in the forward stroke having the face a touch more open at address?

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by ShawLF
typo

[Smash Factors]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

The brain will do things to the path and hands that you can’t account for.

Right, but notice that anytime someone brings up the idea of addressing the ball with an open face, none of this is a problem. The brain doesn't "do the opposite" or "reverse what you throw at it."

 

But when we talk about a closed face at address, suddenly all these things become an issue.

[bladehunter]

30 minutes ago, Smash Factors said:

Right, but notice that anytime someone brings up the idea of addressing the ball with an open face, none of this is a problem. The brain doesn't "do the opposite" or "reverse what you throw at it."

 

But when we talk about a closed face at address, suddenly all these things become an issue.

I am not trying to be obtuse.  But I don’t see your point.  You can do you .  No judgment.  I just am telling you what I’ve seen. The player that starts with a shut face and is good. Is rare.  I can name a few shut  faced players.  One is a 12 handicap , the other I’d give 9 a side and not worry about.  
 

I am not a trackman expert but i do know this. Leave the face a hair open to path , and it’s not a big miss … shut it to a square path the same amount and it’s going left of left.  You’d have to have an extension in to out path to play that way. 

[golfarb1]

19 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

This has been discussed before, but I'd like to settle this debate once and for all if possible.

 

Please make sure that you fully understand the concept before making half-baked comments like "you'll be hooking it all day", or "that's just a band aid for a bigger swing flaw", etc. I'm bringing up a legit idea as proposed by a PGA professional.

 

I would like to leave swing path itself out of the argument. For all intents and purposes, the swing path is down the line or very near to down the line. There's no need to nitpick the little nuances of swing path.

 

Like many of you, I've been aiming the irons directly at an intermediate target for well over a decade. The argument presented directly challenges the validity of doing this.

 

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

 

Here's the logic behind the argument:

• Impact position is drastically different from address position.
• A good impact position will almost always have some amount of forward shaft lean.
• Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.
• If the face is closed to the intermediate target at address, it will square up to it at impact because of forward shaft lean.
• If the face is squared up to the intermediate target at address, you most often should end up with a push because of forward shaft lean at impact.

 

Feel free to comment and get involved regardless of your ability, but I'm hoping to get comments from skilled golfers and those who have knowledge of the concept.

 

There are possible issues with all of the above points

1. Impact is drastically different . While this is a generally true statement , some players ( like Mike Malaska  ) have opened their pelvis  and ribcage very little at impact . Other  players preset shaft lean towards their inner lead thigh at setup   or do so dynamically like Henrik Stenson or preset their weight distribution to their lead leg  at SETUP

2. Although top players generally deloft the clubhead and have considerable shaft lean at impact , players with less clubhead speed will suffer from such considerable delofting of the clubhead , so less( but some)  shaft lean is often  more desirable . The reason for this is  insufficient  clubhead loft at impact causing less ball height and less overall carry. 

3. Forward shaft lean will  place the hands ahead of the clubhead.
 

EVERYTHING the SAME , this will point the clubhead more to the right at impact . 
HOWEVER , there are a number of other factors which have an effect upon the orientation of the clubface at impact . Among these factors are ribcage rotation ,trail wrist extension at the top and last parallel, supination/ pronation of the forearms  and path 

 

Because  the golf clubhead is swung on an ARC , the place where the clubhead contacts the ball is a factor in orientation of the clubhead and the path  .
Generally the more forward that the ball is contacted , the more outside-in the path and the more closed the clubhead . The more back that the ball is contacted the more inside-out the path and more open the clubface.

 

Actually changing your aim toward an intermediate target may not even be necessary , since taking a STRONGER  lead hand grip will often lead to your desired results . 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by golfarb1

[Petethreeput]

12 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

Simply not true though, right? There's way too many scratch golfers out there for all of them to be playing from an open face.

I am sure there are, but that isn't the premise of the post which is below...

 

19 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

Jack has seen way more golfers than I have, and knows a lot more than I do, and he disagrees 100% so I have to assume he disagrees with you.  I also set up open and play a draw and have been encouraged to do so.

[KMeloney]

3 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

It would not change the fact that the face opens at impact via shaft lean.

 

This just isn't a "fact" -- at least shaft lean doesn't automatically cause the face to open.