Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[AFcelica]

i read this whole thread and i still dont know the answer to this question. 

 

is joe saying, for example micklesons hinge and hold or iteach basic chipping method which also has shaft lean and weight forward, or say the video from paddy harrington posted earlier, is the right way to hit that lower spinny chip and the whole argument is just how negative of AOA on trackman is best or is joe teaching a different technique to get similar results?

 

Edited February 22 by AFcelica

[GolfTurkey]

6 hours ago, AFcelica said:

i read this whole thread and i still dont know the answer to this question. 

 

is joe saying, for example micklesons hinge and hold or iteach basic chipping method which also has shaft lean and weight forward, or say the video from paddy harrington posted earlier, is the right way to hit that lower spinny chip and the whole argument is just how negative of AOA on trackman is best or is joe teaching a different technique to get similar results?

 

 

I would say there is a primary and secondary argument.

 

Starting with the secondary one, Mayo believes that a 27-30 degree launch spinner is the most accurate short game shot and should be the default shot if the situation allows.

 

The primary argument is that Mayo believes that the best way to hit that shot with the highest margin for error and best chance of clean contact is to be 10 or more down.

[indianagolf2]

Brian is very head strong and is not open to other ideas...unless he likes the instructor already. His discussion with mayo..was very harsh and condescending.  .not a,fan of Manzella at all. 

[Brian Manzella]

Hey "indianagolf2"....

 

Just for your information.

 

I've hit close to 2000 pitch shots since I got back from the PGA Show. I test EVERYTHING that comes down the pike. 

 

Even though I was 99.9999% sure of my arguments with Joe at Open Forum were correct (they 100% were), I hit tons of those 2000 shots attempting to make the exact shot that was being recommended. 

 

I've also had a few other golfers hit a couple to see what happens at 10° and "attempted 10° down" across a cross section of players.

 

Here's the scoop:
 

-10° is a trick shot. 

 

The 27° launch angle, 8000+ spin shot is best done around 6-8° down.

 

You have NO IDEA unless you watch the whole Open Forum video (and have some accounts from people in the audience) what was going on in the room while the presentation was occurring.

 

Mayo took a shot at me when I clapped for Ridyard's question.

 

Me and Joe have a "past" and it contributed as well. 

 

500+ pros were getting SOLD some questionable ideas. I stood up for many of them.

 

If you don't like me, it's ok with me. At least I stand by my comments with my own name and I have done a ton of answering questions on this forum, doing supporting videos, and literally answering dozens of calls and emails and messages from pros around the whole on this subject.

 

For free.

 

And for the last time....SPINNING THE BALL A BUNCH on a useable PGA TOUR level pitch shot has VERY LITTLE to do with angle of attack.

 

10° down for a large sample size of golfers would produce horrific results as far as percentage of solid contacted shots.

 

😉

[indianagolf2]

6 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

Hey "indianagolf2"....

 

Just for your information.

 

I've hit close to 2000 pitch shots since I got back from the PGA Show. I test EVERYTHING that comes down the pike. 

 

Even though I was 99.9999% sure of my arguments with Joe at Open Forum were correct (they 100% were), I hit tons of those 2000 shots attempting to make the exact shot that was being recommended. 

 

I've also had a few other golfers hit a couple to see what happens at 10° and "attempted 10° down" across a cross section of players.

 

Here's the scoop:
 

-10° is a trick shot. 

 

The 27° launch angle, 8000+ spin shot is best done around 6-8° down.

 

You have NO IDEA unless you watch the whole Open Forum video (and have some accounts from people in the audience) what was going on in the room while the presentation was occurring.

 

Mayo took a shot at me when I clapped for Ridyard's question.

 

Me and Joe have a "past" and it contributed as well. 

 

500+ pros were getting SOLD some questionable ideas. I stood up for many of them.

 

If you don't like me, it's ok with me. At least I stand by my comments with my own name and I have done a ton of answering questions on this forum, doing supporting videos, and literally answering dozens of calls and emails and messages from pros around the whole on this subject.

 

For free.

 

And for the last time....SPINNING THE BALL A BUNCH on a useable PGA TOUR level pitch shot has VERY LITTLE to do with angle of attack.

 

10° down for a large sample size of golfers would produce horrific results as far as percentage of solid contacted shots.

 

😉

That's a very informative post....no doubt your a top 100 instructor. My question to you is...is the technique Mayo is using with Hovland just luck or bound to fail? As to history you have with him. ..that happens. But, why do others have to listen to the approach without knowing said history...like myself. 

[Brian Manzella]

My "History" with Joe has NOTHING—absolutely nothing—to do with my take on 10° down being the best way to get a 27° launched, 8000+ skinny pitch.

 

The technique is no more likely to fail than any other procedure, in the short term, in the hands of a talented player. Long term? I think after you hit a few really bad ones in the heat of a big event, you may switch to easier on the heart.

 

I absolutely would NOT teach 10° down to a clinic of 10, 100, 1000, or 102,000 people as their standard pitch. Or their standard spinny pitch shot.

 

It is simply NOT the best way to hit that particular shot.

Edited February 25 by Brian Manzella

[CasualLie]

From the looks of the social media feeds, Joe is steering clear of Brian and now has his sights on Parker.  Why? Who knows...???  Golf instructors having a healthy debate is one thing, even the occasional "crossing the line of courtesy/respect" is no big deal.  But the passive aggressive social posts are double talk nonsense (and I am talking about Mayo).  You don't get to post in bold "I never said shallow was wrong"..."I never said you can't do it a different way"..."I never said I disagree with (insert coach X)"... then proceed to be a one trick pony posting a bunch of 10 down trackman/quad snaps pretending like you are all nice and helpful; and not expect you are going to get some flack.

 

It's been well stated by other respected instructors here, the Mayo shot has its time/place, it might even have a more disproportional time/place on PGAT conditions in the hands of the best in the world...maybe...but to call it the end all be all technique for those struggling around the greens is ridiculous.

 

Brian has done a great job explaining the science and where the optimum is, just as shortgamechef has done a great job explaining in layman terms why a 10 down miss means you are chipping again.

[nitram]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:57 AM, Nels55 said:

Anyway is the idea of using less lofted clubs to hit low spin chips and pitches a totally separate issue from this debate?

 

If the shot is relatively flat, not dealing with a lot of undulation, or you're not chipping to a considerable elevated green, then yes, most are better off with the lower spin chips with the straighter faced clubs. The get it on the ground as quickly as possible and let it roll chip works better for most golfers because it is more predictable.  Most ams/weekenders don't have the time or won't practice either of the wedge shots mentioned within this thread. You have to get pretty salty with the shot Mayo is prescribing to be able to depend on it under pressure. And most golfers (outside WRX) simply won't do it, at least enough to become proficient.

 

The putt with loft or whatever you want to call it doesn't depend on spin to be effective, which is the key. You simply practice to know your air-to-roll ratio with each club and to hit your spot(s) on the green.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

 

If the shot is relatively flat, not dealing with a lot of undulation, or you're not chipping to a considerable elevated green, then yes, most are better off with the lower spin chips with the straighter faced clubs. The get it on the ground as quickly as possible and let it roll chip works better for most golfers because it is more predictable.  Most ams/weekenders don't have the time or won't practice either of the wedge shots mentioned within this thread. You have to get pretty salty with the shot Mayo is prescribing to be able to depend on it under pressure. And most golfers (outside WRX) simply won't do it, at least enough to become proficient.

 

The putt with loft or whatever you want to call it doesn't depend on spin to be effective, which is the key. You simply practice to know your air-to-roll ratio with each club and to hit your spot(s) on the green.

Yes.  LOL I have noticed that it is possible to skull a seven iron chip shot and have go about the same distance as a flushed shot.  Definitely more forgiving and I have friends who putt or chip and run from well off the green if there is nothing major like sand or water in the way.  When they do have to pitch the ball it can get pretty ugly.

[AFcelica]

After having a vokey d grind for the last 2 seasons I thought my low point control was just not good enough to use the bounce. Got a callaway z grind and now I can actually slide the club under the ball with ease. Can even hit an open faced vertical shaft pitch of lenolium lol. Who knew I was sabotaging myself 🤷‍♂️

[ej002]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:14 PM, Brian Manzella said:

I've been working on a comprehensive video all week. Should be finished tomorrow. 

 

When Joe was looking for everyone to agree with him on the 10°+ down increased the chance for solid hit (in that clip posted above), NOBODY said a peep. Because practically nobody agrees with that.

 

Too risky a move to claim "more solid shots"....

Remember when he posted here as TallVolFan or whatever his name was and asked us all for advice?  Should we dig those threads up for fun?  Last time we did that everyone sat in the penalty box for a while and all the threads got locked. Could never take the dude serious.   Didn't Viktor already fire him?   

[indianagolf2]

2 hours ago, ej002 said:

Remember when he posted here as TallVolFan or whatever his name was and asked us all for advice?  Should we dig those threads up for fun?  Last time we did that everyone sat in the penalty box for a while and all the threads got locked. Could never take the dude serious.   Didn't Viktor already fire him?   

First off, fire him isn't the case and victor has gone thru 7 instructors already. The chipping Victor learned was exceptional under Mayo . I ran into someone who's brother plays to a,plus 2.8 and is working with mayo and likes the results. Mayo was,dojng alot of work I thought with Grant waite...who's exceptional. I watched the Perez and Mayo video and liked it. I doubt Joseph mayo is a dumb or bad instructor. 

[virtuoso]

5 hours ago, ej002 said:

Remember when he posted here as TallVolFan or whatever his name was and asked us all for advice?  Should we dig those threads up for fun?  Last time we did that everyone sat in the penalty box for a while and all the threads got locked. Could never take the dude serious.   Didn't Viktor already fire him?   

…paging Doctor Loomis…

[mystic]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:26 AM, Brian Manzella said:

Hey "indianagolf2"....

 

Just for your information.

 

I've hit close to 2000 pitch shots since I got back from the PGA Show. I test EVERYTHING that comes down the pike. 

 

Even though I was 99.9999% sure of my arguments with Joe at Open Forum were correct (they 100% were), I hit tons of those 2000 shots attempting to make the exact shot that was being recommended. 

 

I've also had a few other golfers hit a couple to see what happens at 10° and "attempted 10° down" across a cross section of players.

 

Here's the scoop:
 

-10° is a trick shot. 

 

The 27° launch angle, 8000+ spin shot is best done around 6-8° down.

 

You have NO IDEA unless you watch the whole Open Forum video (and have some accounts from people in the audience) what was going on in the room while the presentation was occurring.

 

Mayo took a shot at me when I clapped for Ridyard's question.

 

Me and Joe have a "past" and it contributed as well. 

 

500+ pros were getting SOLD some questionable ideas. I stood up for many of them.

 

If you don't like me, it's ok with me. At least I stand by my comments with my own name and I have done a ton of answering questions on this forum, doing supporting videos, and literally answering dozens of calls and emails and messages from pros around the whole on this subject.

 

For free.

 

And for the last time....SPINNING THE BALL A BUNCH on a useable PGA TOUR level pitch shot has VERY LITTLE to do with angle of attack.

 

10° down for a large sample size of golfers would produce horrific results as far as percentage of solid contacted shots.

 

😉

I was front row for this. 99.9% correct is being conservative. 
The wedge is used differently for almost every shot you hit meaning you need different spin lofts all the time.  There is no one way to do it. 
we’ve had launch monitors on tour ranges for almost 2 decades and just recently we’re talking about 10 or 20 down on a wedge. Why didn’t people see this a decade ago?   Maybe because it wasn’t happening.
Steepness, using the bounce, shaft lean, and short Game divots are so misunderstood at the instruction level how can this forum have the faintest idea.  

 

[nepatriotsfan]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:49 AM, mystic said:

I was front row for this. 99.9% correct is being conservative. 
The wedge is used differently for almost every shot you hit meaning you need different spin lofts all the time.  There is no one way to do it. 
we’ve had launch monitors on tour ranges for almost 2 decades and just recently we’re talking about 10 or 20 down on a wedge. Why didn’t people see this a decade ago?   Maybe because it wasn’t happening.
Steepness, using the bounce, shaft lean, and short Game divots are so misunderstood at the instruction level how can this forum have the faintest idea.  

 

What instructor(s) do you think have the best understanding of how to teach all short game shots? Thank you.

[Deadaimz]

All I know is be shallow utb was my belief for a decade and my short game never much improved.  It was probably me and my understanding but once I used a more downward feeling shot my game has improved over 6-7 strokes. I attribute much my improvements to the jm method. Just my 2cents

[hackerboy]

I feel the same way.  For me the main issue is grain.  Half the chips and pitches here are into very sticky grain. Catch a few blades of grass and shot is dead. I’ve tried every possible wedge bounce and sole, and with shallow angle of attack the bounce does not save many shots (especially uphill and slightly moist). I just find the steep attack angle  with head initially moving forward to have more room for error. Can be a hero down grain with both methods.  

[mystic]

10 hours ago, nepatriotsfan said:

What instructor(s) do you think have the best understanding of how to teach all short game shots? Thank you.

All the instructors you have heard of are great, I’ve worked with many.  
but even at the tour level, things are still not well understood.  For example, bounce, we think of it as a number rather than where the “bounce mountain” is located and it’s not just the grind style. That stuff matters. For example A 45° spin loft is good for a lot of shots but the launch Angle can vary immensely with that 45

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:49 AM, mystic said:

...Steepness, using the bounce, shaft lean, and short Game divots are so misunderstood at the instruction level how can this forum have the faintest idea.  

 

I wasn't at the presentation (obviously; I'm just a mere double-digit hacker), but it might be good if indeed the golf short game student public is misunderstanding these concepts, to define our terms.

 

What do those four terms you mentioned mean when you say them, and what are we the general public supposed to learn from them?

 

Personally, even though I have been practicing a given type of chip that is more of a crisp lofted-club putt---and in practice, being quite consistent with line and carry---I do occasionally hit lower shots that still stop abruptly.  I wouldn't mind knowing what I'm doing differently there, how to replicate it, and what the 'process windows' are.