Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[doctor220]

On 10/4/2023 at 12:00 PM, GungHoGolf said:

Good example and drill for the long flat spot with no divot you can get with a good pitching action:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqvDUqLAmqF/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Think flat spot is a misnomer. The arc is not going to be truly flat it will be just less steeply arcing. 

[sjn1]

As an aside really, as this thread  has got way beyond my level of expertise ;

I saw a video of Brett Rumford  a while ago, who was reputedly a short game master, in which he says how he has some forward shaft lean at impact on short game shots ,including (and this was the interesting bit for me anyway) in bunker shots.  

Rumford wants some shaft lean as the club enters the sand, with the lean only gone at a point ahead of the ball,  which is also the low point of travel for the club.  This idea works much better for me than trying to get the club shaft vertical at impact.

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

Think flat spot is a misnomer. The arc is not going to be truly flat it will be just less steeply arcing. 

Agree - as posted in the images before; my uneducated guess is AoA 8-10ish down delivering 45-50ish of dynamic would still present the bounce of the wedge (if you have 10-12-14 of it) and not the leading edge - no dig, but still a 'thud' / scrapping the tight lie - along with hand path and body rotating, getting taller... what you see players practicing just besides the ball prior to their shot

[ThinkingPlus]

18 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Agree - as posted in the images before; my uneducated guess is AoA 8-10ish down delivering 45-50ish of dynamic would still present the bounce of the wedge (if you have 10-12-14 of it) and not the leading edge - no dig, but still a 'thud' / scrapping the tight lie - along with hand path and body rotating, getting taller... what you see players practicing just besides the ball prior to their shot

That's true, but doesn't do much for those of us who play low bounce wedges. Nothing to do, but learn how to not dig while still delivering a good amount of AOA.

[Lefthook]

I’ve given this topic some thought.

 

I think what it … the spin magic … boils down to is a very small swing radius combined with release through the ball. 
 

So acute wrist set combined with minimal hand travel.

 

 

[umamimami]

Agree with lefthook. Check out that recent Rory shot - he used his wrists to elevate that club immediately. Same with Viktor.

 

 

 

I’ve been working with this shot a lot. I’ve gleaned that Pete Cowens bunker grip - the butterfly- plays quite well with this shot. If you’ve been squaring the clubface too much up / releasing this is especially relevant.

 

The butterfly grip soft-locks your wrist joint and prevents you from closing the face past a certain point. So open the club face as desired, assume a butterfly grip and then you can pickup the club with your wrists/ set early your wrists early and there’s no worry of overly releasing the club.

 

Best part is that any concern with getting overly steep can be addressed mid swing by accelerating- since the butterfly prevents excessive closure of the clubface you can just get faster (and spinnier?) to get to the ball. At worst you high spinner that plops out 50-75% of intended.  Once you’ve practiced, your intention is steep there no reason to worry about being thin.

 

edit: it’s a lot like a bunker shot except you actually hit the ball.  Also I don’t know if that grip is Pete’s but I got it from his instruction.

Edited October 7, 2023 by umamimami

[ThePaineTrain]

The spin isn't caused by the lean angle itself, it's cause by the fact that the angle is being released.

 

If you held a club at 10 degrees forward lean and just moved your hands horizontal, your AoA would be 0: the clubhead would just be sweeping flat along the ground and your spin loft would be exactly the dynamic loft. Because the shaft angle is in the process of going from >10 degrees before impact to <10 degrees after impact, at the moment of impact the clubhead is moving downwards, giving you the negative AoA. But you need to be throwing the angle away at the moment of impact

[CardsChamps11]

It seems like the Joe Mayo philosophy is what James Ridyard has preached for a while. Has anyone ever subscribed to his site or taken his courses before? I would like to take them to get an understand of how this method is utilized throughout the array of shots.

[Lefthook]

15 minutes ago, ThePaineTrain said:

The spin isn't caused by the lean angle itself, it's cause by the fact that the angle is being released.

 

If you held a club at 10 degrees forward lean and just moved your hands horizontal, your AoA would be 0: the clubhead would just be sweeping flat along the ground and your spin loft would be exactly the dynamic loft. Because the shaft angle is in the process of going from >10 degrees before impact to <10 degrees after impact, at the moment of impact the clubhead is moving downwards, giving you the negative AoA. But you need to be throwing the angle away at the moment of impact

So true, but you can add some spin by being step and keeping she swing radius short. As much ball contact as far away from the center of the ball as possible … yet solid.

[Trippels]

Maybe I've misunderstood, but does the low trajectory high spin shot require you to hit low on the face? Which is why you need bring the handle up when leaning it forward to avoid a strike high on the blade?

And does the bounce of the wedge affect this?

[MPStrat]

Adam Young joining Joe Mayo making the case for more shaft lean, less bounce and a steep angle of attack.

 

Very interesting graphic 

[GolfTurkey]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Adam Young joining Joe Mayo making the case for more shaft lean, less bounce and a steep angle of attack.

 

Very interesting graphic 

 

 

I also liked his analogy in the comments section that using the bounce is like driving a safer car that's easier to crash.

 

Next time I'm in the car, I'm going to yell "use the airbags" at my wife!

[MPStrat]

[Three_Jack]

This is incredible stuff. I mean, I think the using the bounce stuff was great, but this just takes that idea(brusing the turf not digging), but now getting even more forgiveness(more area of the face to hit it for a functional shot)....

 

This is gonna shave lots of strokes off for lots of people.

 

Now I'd love to hear more about technique or intents for delivering the club like this.

[PracticeSwinger]

16 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Adam Young joining Joe Mayo making the case for more shaft lean, less bounce and a steep angle of attack.

 

Very interesting graphic 

Even better on Twitter with all the illustrations... with shaft lean + the extreme 12 down AoA (shown here) it's not what people think it would look like, as if you were digging to China... if your AoA is less than your wedge bounce - you are, in fact, 'using the bounce' to brush the grass and not dig by exposing your leading edge... while the generic concept of 'use the bounce' thrown around can be dangerous because you can effectively expose the front of your wedge and have it contact higher on the ball, if you don't have enough shaft lean and/or downward AoA

[Bob M]

Adam Young has a section of "The Strike Plan" devoted to the importance of arc height control, so the graphic above makes complete sense to me. Furthermore, James Ridyard has several videos on his YT channel related to this topic which are really interesting.

 

My takeaway is that having plenty of bounce helps those of us who have less than stellar arc height control, whereas for elite players who do have such control it is much less important, hence the prevalence of LWs with 4*-6* of bounce. Finally as Padraig Harrington says in his chipping video "the bounce saves you". 

[Glock917]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:51 AM, MPStrat said:

But they achieve it differently. Short game chef posted his flightscope numbers a few days ago and is down 4* with 56* of dynamic loft. 

This is what Mayo is teaching:

 

 

I always loved playing my lowish pitch spinner with my 60* from the fairway. Its easy to control distance and fun to hit.  I just play my ball on my left heel with weight forward and clip the grass with my handle pointing to my right pocket on followthrough. Never knew my club dynamics when I do this until I got on a trackman recently and voila.  

 

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

12 hours ago, Bob M said:

Finally as Padraig Harrington says in his chipping video "the bounce saves you". 

 

I think the full context of what Padraig says re. the bounce is important.

 

He says it's the most over-used term when it comes to chipping, you should never practice to use the bounce, you should never bounce the club into the ball, you should hit ball first etc. and that it can save you when you get it wrong.

 

Bounce discussion starts at 8:25

 

 

[Doodlebug87]

His new short on Instagram is great, testing out a new wedge, 30 yard low spinner with over 7000 rpm and then he shows the face to the camera, it has no grooves!

 

This aside, for fun last night I was testing how much I could juice the technique by aggressively rotating - managed 60 yard carry with nearly 11k rpm at 23 degree launch with a 60 degree wedge, unsure I'd have the bollocks to try it on the course 😄

[Bob M]

11 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

I think the full context of what Padraig says re. the bounce is important.

 

He says it's the most over-used term when it comes to chipping, you should never practice to use the bounce, you should never bounce the club into the ball, you should hit ball first etc. and that it can save you when you get it wrong.

 

Bounce discussion starts at 8:25

 

Yup, great video on chipping!

[Deadaimz]

 

 

[Golfbeat]

The concept of leaning forward in the back swing reminds me of this oldie but goodie.

 

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

This was a really interesting before and after with PGA Tour player Jim Herman.

 

Before, taking divots and chunking chips with a -3.2 degree AoA:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CycCQ3Yvns0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

 

After, nipping it at 10+ degrees down with minimal turf disturbance:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CycEjCUPy9n/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

This episode of PING Proving Grounds Pod with May, he goes into great detail on this approach and examples from working with Viktor.  A really great listen

 

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-ping-proving-grounds-114661768/episode/episode-20-joe-mayo-125012360/

[MPStrat]

9 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

This was a really interesting before and after with PGA Tour player Jim Herman.

 

Before, taking divots and chunking chips with a -3.2 degree AoA:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CycCQ3Yvns0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

 

After, nipping it at 10+ degrees down with minimal turf disturbance:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CycEjCUPy9n/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

 Remarkable

[MonteScheinblum]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:41 AM, Deadaimz said:

 

 

BJ is a good friend and we teach at the same facility.  We discussed teh VH thing today.  

[Trippels]

46 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

BJ is a good friend and we teach at the same facility.  We discussed teh VH thing today.  

And what conclusions were made?

Should I write you an angry email about getting my money back for the "Use the bounce 2.0" course even though it's been working well?

[MonteScheinblum]

51 minutes ago, Trippels said:

And what conclusions were made?

Should I write you an angry email about getting my money back for the "Use the bounce 2.0" course even though it's been working well?

LOL.

 

They are two different shots.  Ones a high spin, one’s a low spin.

 

I’m still open to find out it’s an easier way for less than elite players.  I’m not sold on that yet.

 

Joe and I are in the process of putting a school together in Vegas.  Trying to make it work out for both of our schedules.  I’m anxious to see him teach this to a 8-15 cap.

 

I practiced it some in the bay to get the numbers right.  I like the shot, just not 100% sold on it for being easier.  I worked on it with BJ today and he feels the same.

 

If you’re not going to be open to new ideas that people are having success with, despite it being outside your narrative, it’s time to give up and become a passive aggressive, dismissive, condescending internet troll. 😜

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Deadaimz]

Monte maybe it will take your game to another level? The missing piece like VH. It sure won't hurt to have that shot in your arsenal. Look forward to hearing about your discovery on the shot. 

[ezpz]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

LOL.

 

They are two different shots.  Ones a high spin, one’s a low spin.

 

I’m still open to find out it’s an easier way for less than elite players.  I’m not sold on that yet.

 

Joe and I are in the process of putting a school together in Vegas.  Trying to make it work out for both of our schedules.  I’m anxious to see him teach this to a 8-15 cap.

 

I practiced it some in the bay to get the numbers right.  I like the shot, just not 100% sold on it for being easier.  I worked on it with BJ today and he feels the same.

 

If you’re not going to be open to new ideas that people are having success with, despite it being outside your narrative, it’s time to give up and become a passive aggressive, dismissive, condescending internet troll. 😜

 

 

What's the tl;dr on hitting this type of chip shot? Over the last couple of years I've gotten pretty good at using the bounce (definition of pretty good for me as an am is avoiding big mistakes LOL) but would love to fool around with this.