Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[GolfTurkey]

Ok this is getting OT, but a fun fact is that in Australia Bermuda grass is commonly known as "Couch" grass (because you would rather be lying on the couch than chipping off it?), the pronunciation of which might make other nationalities giggle:

 

http://youtube.com/shorts/-2w9ShngDeo?feature=shared

 

 

[Hstead]

Where I am, most of the courses have run off areas that are four plus feet lower than the green surfaces.  The areas are tightly mown bermuda.  Most of the courses have bermuda greens as well and often are very firm and run at least 11 and most around 12 on the stimp.  I moved here from Ohio two years ago.  Totally different game around the greens and requires a totally different technique.  I had to overhaul my short game.

 

I am lucky to play where Gibby Giolbert III plays,  Gibby has won the Champions Tour Q school and kept his card a few years out there.  He is an exceptional ball striker, his short game is sick, but his putter keeps him from winning.  

 

Gibby helped me quite a bit with my short game.   I joined the Short Game Chefs site right after Gibby changed everything about my technique.  According to Gibby, the way he plays his shots, which is using the bounce and trying to have as little shaft lean as possible, is the over whelming method used on the Champions Tour and other Tours.  His words, not mine.  

 

Gibby taught me basically the exact same method SGC uses.

 

My short game has improved and is better than it has been in my life.  

 

Around here, when you are five or six feet below the green and they are really firm and running 12 on the stimp, 6K rpms are not going to help you at 29* launch.  You better hit it higher and soft and be able to stop the ball with the decent angle because no amount os spin is going to keep the ball on the green if it comes in lower.  Not to mention, you better not be steep into the grain on wet bermuda.  Good luck with that and also stopping on firm fast greens.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Hstead

[GolfTurkey]

2 hours ago, Hstead said:

Around here, when you are five or six feet below the green and they are really firm and running 12 on the stimp, 6K rpms are not going to help you at 29* launch.  You better hit it higher and soft and be able to stop the ball with the decent angle because no amount os spin is going to keep the ball on the green if it comes in lower.  Not to mention, you better not be steep into the grain on wet bermuda.  Good luck with that and also stopping on firm fast greens.

 

Hehe, this is going to be a fun debate over the next few months because it's so contrary to the mainstream. I also wish it wasn't behind a pay wall (I know it's for a good cause).

 

Mayo had Webb Simpson demonstrate that exact same shot off wet into the grain Bermuda with a green above his feet (yes Webb Simpson, I know...he does also show 10+ cap ams hitting this shot)

 

He also has videos of random pro's (not taught by Mayo) who let him film and/or measure short game shots. Xander hit a nipper for him and when Mayo told him he was ten down you could hear the surprise in Xander's voice when he exclaimed "ten!!"

 

[MonteScheinblum]

21 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Hehe, this is going to be a fun debate over the next few months because it's so contrary to the mainstream. I also wish it wasn't behind a pay wall (I know it's for a good cause).

 

Mayo had Webb Simpson demonstrate that exact same shot off wet into the grain Bermuda with a green above his feet (yes Webb Simpson, I know...he does also show 10+ cap ams hitting this shot)

 

He also has videos of random pro's (not taught by Mayo) who let him film and/or measure short game shots. Xander hit a nipper for him and when Mayo told him he was ten down you could hear the surprise in Xander's voice when he exclaimed "ten!!"

 

Having played at a high level for 40 years and having taught players at every skill level…….I’ll repeat my instinct is some will do one way, some will do the other and some will do both based on the shot at hand.

[GolfTurkey]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Having played at a high level for 40 years and having taught players at every skill level…….I’ll repeat my instinct is some will do one way, some will do the other and some will do both based on the shot at hand.

And I would be surprised if you’re wrong (Mayo also talks about the differences in spin loft when hitting high shots, cool that you will get this all first hand). 

 

I think there are a couple misconceptions I see amongst the critics. Firstly, even if it’s low(ish), it’s not a “hot” flight. The same impact dynamics that create the low launch/high spin also create a low ball speed so it’s a soft flight. Reminds me a lot of how good players used to pitch with balatas, as a kid I used to watch the tour pro based at my club hit low one hop stoppers with balatas  onto our rock hard chipping green and I couldn’t comprehend it. 
 

The other thing is that 27-29 may be lower than what people are used to with a 60, but it’s not that low. We’re not talking a worm-burner bump and run, that’s still double the launch angle of a 6 iron.

[MPStrat]

14 hours ago, Hstead said:

My short game has improved and is better than it has been in my life.  

That’s awesome.  But I think Viktor would say the same thing. He’s playing on greens as fast as yours and faster. Plenty of different grass types as well. 

Obviously there are many instances when tour pros will choose not to use the low spinner. But learning this shot and the movements needed to execute this shot improved Viktor’s play around the greens immensely. I think that’s pretty notable.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxNOFGDt6o9/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Hstead]

I haven't paid for the patreon membership so I do not know what Mayo is teaching and am obviously confused but that video you linked from instagram sure looks like he is trying to throw the shaft lean away and use the bounce?  He also references slowing the ball speed down which is everything SGC teaches, reducing ball speed.

 

What am I missing?  Viktor seems to be trying to throw the shaft lean away and slow the ball down.  Same as SGC and the same thing Gibby taught me.

[Deadaimz]

There is video where he is trying to get Ben Crane to get a target vsp of 80°. Is that ideal for the method? He didn't really explain much as to why high vsp. Does it correlate to shaft lean?

[MPStrat]

 

 

It’s really as simple as this…

 

If someone wants to hit the 30* launch low spinner, they can’t do it without shaft lean. I’ve seen him post golfers using a 60* wedge with dynamic loft numbers of 40-47ish. I saw one he posted at 50* that he considered somewhat of an anomaly. The more loft, the more you have to hit down to launch it low, the greater risk of losing friction and losing spin. 
 

Mayo is teaching that you don’t have to throw away shaft lean or have a static loft delivery like short game chef and others prefer to slow the ball down. That’s one of the main concepts on his Patreon.

 

That’s not an opinion.

 

Steep angle of attack doesn’t mean steep ground interaction. It doesn’t mean some crazy steep shaft over the top move.  

 

If you donate the price of a sleeve of balls, you can learn about it.

[getitdaily]

Am.i the only one going into cam Mccormick technical overload with discussion on launch angles and spin rates on chip shots...? Lol.

[MPStrat]

57 minutes ago, Hstead said:

He also references slowing the ball speed down which is everything SGC teaches, reducing ball speed.

But they achieve it differently. Short game chef posted his flightscope numbers a few days ago and is down 4* with 56* of dynamic loft. 

This is what Mayo is teaching:

 

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Am.i the only one going into cam Mccormick technical overload with discussion on launch angles and spin rates on chip shots...? Lol.

Thankfully we have those numbers or we would be sitting in golfwrx status quo “every good player does and every good teacher teaches the same thing” land

 

The numbers help define the differences

[getitdaily]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

Thankfully we have those numbers or we would be sitting in golfwrx status quo “every good player does and every good teacher teaches the same thing” land

 

The numbers help define the differences

Oh I know. I'm just ribbing a bit. This discussion reminds me of the golf channel series with Mccormick where he had his TM and iPad out going over spin numbers on various chips and pitches. 

 

Found myself in a drooling stupor...

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Thankfully we have those numbers or we would be sitting in golfwrx status quo “every good player does and every good teacher teaches the same thing” land

 

The numbers help define the differences

Also gives me opportunity to use a favorite gif...

 

Anyone here launch their 60 around 30 degrees and spin it 7k rpm on a 10 yard chip? 

 

 

[jonsnow]

33 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Also gives me opportunity to use a favorite gif...

 

Anyone here launch their 60 around 30 degrees and spin it 7k rpm on a 10 yard chip? 

 

 

You don't?

[MPStrat]

 

[Deadaimz]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Also gives me opportunity to use a favorite gif...

 

Anyone here launch their 60 around 30 degrees and spin it 7k rpm on a 10 yard chip? 

 

 

I've been trying on a tru golf simulator and the best I can do is 4000 rpms. Not sure how their spin number relate to tm. And unfortunately I trugolf does not give you aoa or dynamic loft but if does give you launch numbers which I have been able to consistently get it to 35-25° launch angle.

[MPStrat]

Beyond what has already been mentioned, after watching all of the videos on his channel I can sort of sum up the philosophy for those interested. Joe has mentioned most of this on his instagram over the last year.

 

He believes that:

 

-A slow moving golf ball is imperative for short game shots.

 

-A sub 30* launch angle is necessary for accuracy. This is where the strokes are gained on tour. If a tour player is launching it above 30*, they are losing strokes to the field in the short game.

 

-Struggling chippers overwhelmingly have the low point too far behind the ball. This is the root of their problems.

 

I think many would agree with this assessment. 

 

Where the road splits is that while accepting this fact, some, like short game chef and many others, advise a shallower angle of attack claiming that the miss will be a less harmful drop-kick as opposed to a chunk.

 

Joe's theory is instead: fix the low point. He believes that a steep angle of attack, if achieved "properly" is the main ingredient in creating a repeatably functional low point in the short game.

 

[Deadaimz]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Beyond what has already been mentioned, after watching all of the videos on his channel I can sort of sum up the philosophy for those interested. Joe has mentioned most of this on his instagram over the last year.

 

He believes that:

 

-A slow moving golf ball is imperative for short game shots.

 

-A sub 30* launch angle is necessary for accuracy. This is where the strokes are gained on tour. If a tour player is launching it above 30*, they are losing strokes to the field in the short game.

 

-Struggling chippers overwhelmingly have the low point too far behind the ball. This is the root of their problems.

 

I think many would agree with this assessment. 

 

Where the road splits is that while accepting this fact, some, like short game chef and many others, advise a shallower angle of attack claiming that the miss will be a less harmful drop-kick as opposed to a chunk.

 

Joe's theory is instead: fix the low point. He believes that a steep angle of attack, if achieved "properly" is the main ingredient in creating a repeatably functional low point in the short game.

 

With Joe I stand! The slow moving ball? What are the parameters for a slow moving ball I'm guessing mph and spin?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Deadaimz
Android

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

With Joe I stand! The slow moving ball? What are the parameters for a slow moving ball

Spin loft.  As spin loft decreases, the ball moves faster. 

[GolfTurkey]

6 hours ago, Hstead said:

 

What am I missing?  Viktor seems to be trying to throw the shaft lean away and slow the ball down.  Same as SGC and the same thing Gibby taught me.

 

I'm pretty sure that's "old" Viktor

[GolfTurkey]

The cool thing about taking TM to the practice green is that it takes the guessing and feels out of the equation.

 

I remember a thread on here some years ago where Dan C pointed out that Stan Utley was teaching no shaft lean at impact without realising that he had a ton of lean himself, kind of like Xander's WTF reaction when he heard he was 10 down on a short pitch.

 

This technique looks totally normal, it's definitely not a downward thrust of the club like you're killing a snake while dragging the handle, which is the mental image what a steep AoA with lots of shaft lean evokes. I bet way more tour players and good ams are doing this without realising it.

 

 

[Ezgolfer]

16 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

The cool thing about taking TM to the practice green is that it takes the guessing and feels out of the equation.

 

I remember a thread on here some years ago where Dan C pointed out that Stan Utley was teaching no shaft lean at impact without realising that he had a ton of lean himself, kind of like Xander's WTF reaction when he heard he was 10 down on a short pitch.

 

This technique looks totally normal, it's definitely not a downward thrust of the club like you're killing a snake while dragging the handle, which is the mental image what a steep AoA with lots of shaft lean evokes. I bet way more tour players and good ams are doing this without realising it.

 

 

This.. Lots of good club scratch have this down without the mental imagery of hitting down….

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Ezgolfer said:

This.. Lots of good club scratch have this down without the mental imagery of hitting down….

The mental imagery of hitting down can create major problems. I think some who are confused about what Mayo is teaching assume 2 things:

 

This technique requires the mental imagery of hitting down

 

Steep is bad and means digging 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by MPStrat

[Ezgolfer]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The mental imagery of hitting down can create major problems. I think some who are confused about what Mayo is teaching assume 2 things:

 

This technique requires the mental imagery of hitting down

 

Steep is bad and means digging 

 

 

 

Exactly …..

What I meant to say was that they don’t kno they are hitting down unless shown the trackman numbers…..

We are on the same page…..

[Deadaimz]

38 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The mental imagery of hitting down can create major problems. I think some who are confused about what Mayo is teaching assume 2 things:

 

This technique requires the mental imagery of hitting down

 

Steep is bad and means digging 

 

 

 

I think I'm struggling with how to create the down. I know he has videos where it is hinge and release the com but the one video that stood in my mind is vh saying he feels like he is throwing it straight down. Which is what I feel I am doing maybe why I'm not getting the desirable spin numbers? I do know though that this technique feel for for me is the best feeling for pitching I've ever had and the most consistent. The only thing left is to verify on a round of golf.

[Bob M]

I also signed up for Joe's Patreon site and am finding the content really interesting and informative.

 

Regarding the 30* or less launch angle, both James Ridyard and Andrew Rice have advocated this for years and Joe likely has too. Furthermore, I see similarities with Padraig Harrington's chipping technique in that he also advocates having the low point well in front of the ball, and that the bounce "is there to save you". Basically, I suspect that the various methods aren't really as different as they seem to be. 

[Scottbox]

Honestly, this is such a kookbird debate. Look, if you wanna spend your life trying to get 10* down and have a lob wedge go no higher than your ankle just to impress your buds, then hey, live your life. Or, you can learn a variety of shots that work in specific situations for the kinds of courses you play and the kinds of conditions you face. Whatever you think of JT and his resting b***ch face, he has all the shots. I'll take his short game over whatever Trackman Mastro is serving up any day of the week.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Scottbox

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, Bob M said:

Basically, I suspect that the various methods aren't really as different as they seem to be. 

I watched short game chefs videos earlier this year. The methods are very different. Both in theory and execution. Apples and Oranges.