Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[ThePaineTrain]

Trying to reason out the physics of this in my head...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shaft lean only affects AoA if the club is swinging (i.e. the clubhead is actively rotating along an arc)? That is, if you just held a club at 15 degrees lean and slid it laterally along the ground at the ball, your AoA would be 0 degrees.

 

And if you isolated the swing so the butt of the club was fixed to a point and let gravity do all the work, the AoA would be exactly equal to the shaft lean at impact (and would only be affected by how far behind/ahead of the fixed center of the arc the ball is placed)?

Edited September 30, 2023 by ThePaineTrain

[MK7Golf21]

Depends on the shot really. As a default, I had always been taught when I was a kid to get the ball on the ground and rolling instead of flying it farther, better chance to go in that way. There are certainly times when I hit the high soft one though. 

[airjammer]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cx0vzSQxTqH/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

i watch a lot of Rory. I don’t recall him ever playing a shot that his backswing looked like that. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxtT0r9N1Ex/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

looks a lot like Victor…I wonder if Rory had drunk some of the kool-aid

 

[Qegurezi]

5 hours ago, airjammer said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cx0vzSQxTqH/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

i watch a lot of Rory. I don’t recall him ever playing a shot that his backswing looked like that. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxtT0r9N1Ex/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

looks a lot like Victor…I wonder if Rory had drunk some of the kool-aid

 

The giveaway is the onlooking players turning straight around to Hovland.  some definite collaboration IMO.

[Chunkitgood]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:42 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

I have been a shallow bounce guy as well.  Joe is a friend and he and I are going to discuss this in the near future in person.  At this point it’s likely both work to different degrees for different people and shallow didn’t work for VH.  In my game I’m generally a shallow guy, but often hit certain shots steeply for affect.  
 

It could also be a case of steep bounce delivery is in fact optimal, but harder to produce for average golfers. (Emphasis added.)

 

…..or steep is good for everyone and as we study, we learn better ways to do and teach things.

Well, yeah, could be.

 

The thing is, the same could be said about any technique in golf, or anything other human undertaking for that matter.

[GolfTurkey]

It has been interesting watching the Ryder Cup with the debate about this technique in the back of my mind.

 

I think it's fairly obvious that the low-mid trajectory, high spin shot is the default shot for those guys unless the lie or stuff that needs to carried dictate otherwise.

Edited October 1, 2023 by GolfTurkey

[umamimami]

Rory had an amazing lie for that shot. I think the spinner is especially sticky to elevated greens.
 

The ball comes in just a bit flatter than if it had to travel back down to the same elevation it was shot from.  Also lands earlier in the travel meaning you can put more speed in (more spin/more carry/energy). 
 

Because of the shallow(er) landing angle you still get a few bounces, which is great for confidence knowing you don’t have to try and drop this thing only a flagstick away from the hole.

[gators78]

Does anyone have a good answer of how you can be 10*+ down and not take a big divot? I’m not sure if there is a specific video on the Patreon page that addresses this that I might’ve missed. They keep saying you can be that far down with still just bruising the ground, but I think I need a bit more context. 

 

I get that some divot is ok, but I’m struggling with bigger divots using this approach.

[hackerboy]

Gators78. I’m a 10 handicap now so take this answer with a grain of salt. I’ve been working on this shot for awhile, with Trackman. I can pull this shot off on the range half the time now. Reasons for very little divot are: 1. Open club face with some bounce engaged. As a none professional this is the part I could never get my head around until I saw the good shot results. The shaft lean seems to take away same of the bounce, but it definitely helps, and all pros open the club. 2. Parametric acceleration- main reason I believe.  Per photo below, the hand low point is around right thigh.  Then hands are coming up (depending on technique chest/left shoulder coming up and then back which raises low point into impact). Again, I’m a weekend duffer but love working on this shot, and have seen Trackman numbers with attack angles between 4-10 degrees with many having little if any divot. I still get divots on sticky into the grain attempts, and lately have been trying some of those with off the toe tries with mixed results. Others on this forum suggested toe hit. But pros can all pull those off easily. Someone posted Suh hitting the shot and I freeze framed swing positions. You can see before inpact his left shoulder going up and back, and the parametric acceleration drawing explains the ball leveling.   

Edited October 2, 2023 by hackerboy
Forgot some things

[Trippels]

44 minutes ago, gators78 said:

Does anyone have a good answer of how you can be 10*+ down and not take a big divot? I’m not sure if there is a specific video on the Patreon page that addresses this that I might’ve missed. They keep saying you can be that far down with still just bruising the ground, but I think I need a bit more context. 

 

I get that some divot is ok, but I’m struggling with bigger divots using this approach.

 

[CSagan]

1 hour ago, gators78 said:

Does anyone have a good answer of how you can be 10*+ down and not take a big divot? I’m not sure if there is a specific video on the Patreon page that addresses this that I might’ve missed. They keep saying you can be that far down with still just bruising the ground, but I think I need a bit more context. 

 

I get that some divot is ok, but I’m struggling with bigger divots using this approach.

 

I’ve seen Tiger describe it as cover it and throw. If you really hold the angle you’ll dig…just get your sternum slightly ahead of the ball and release the angles. 

[ThePaineTrain]

9 minutes ago, CSagan said:

 

I’ve seen Tiger describe it as cover it and throw. If you really hold the angle you’ll dig…just get your sternum slightly ahead of the ball and release the angles. 

 

If the club isn't swinging, then the shaft lean has no effect on AoA. The clubhead is at the end of a moving pendulum, you can move the pivot point of the pendulum (your hands) up and forward, as long as the low point of the pendulum is in front of the ball, the path of the head at impact is negative AoA. But if you've stopped the pendulum from swinging by holding the angle, the AoA is more or less locked to whatever your hands are doing through impact, and the only way to get negative at impact would be to plant the clubhead into the ground.

Edited October 2, 2023 by ThePaineTrain

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, CSagan said:

 

I’ve seen Tiger describe it as cover it and throw. If you really hold the angle you’ll dig…just get your sternum slightly ahead of the ball and release the angles. 

 

if you hold the angle and just turn your upper body without releasing the clubhead it is actually super shallow angle of attack. If you throw the clubhead out, the clubhead goes farther down into the ground and will take a deeper divot. Misconception people have. DJ is a good example, very shallow impact and has a huge angle into the ball. It's also the reason you can stay down into the ball more with a held angle vs throwing it out you have to stand up so you don't stick it into the ground. 

 

Other factor, your upper body will turn more with a held angle, pull the left shoulder higher and reducing angle of attack. Throwing the clubhead out tends to stall upper body rotation so left shoulder doesn't get as high, again reason you will stand up more to shallow it. The reason Clark is standing up with his head in that chip to shallow it.

Edited October 2, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[PracticeSwinger]

56 minutes ago, ThePaineTrain said:

 

If the club isn't swinging, then the shaft lean has no effect on AoA. The clubhead is at the end of a moving pendulum, you can move the pivot point of the pendulum (your hands) up and forward, as long as the low point of the pendulum is in front of the ball, the path of the head at impact is negative AoA. But if you've stopped the pendulum from swinging by holding the angle, the AoA is more or less locked to whatever your hands are doing through impact, and the only way to get negative at impact would be to plant the clubhead into the ground.

Total guess on my part, so take it with a grain of salt. Photo of the 'parametric acceleration' I posted earlier in the thread (not that the club is accelerating, just the overall path) that comes from the hands going up and left (rotating through) along with your chest raising is what has the club going in with negative AoA just at impact and then immediatly just brushes the grass, without digging, the bounce helping also even though you're coming in steep : 'instaneous negative AoA' that gets zero'ed out in a hurry if you will... always what I thought pros where practicing just besides the ball, feeling the brushing thud, without any dig

[me05501]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:46 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

 It’s why I teach a high launch low spin shot to most golfers because it’s easier to predict the results and doesn’t require as much practice..  Which is the vertical shaft deliver bounce method that prevails with most better short game instructors.  IMO, this method that worked for VH is for more highly skilled players.  
 

I’m probably going to co-host a school with Joe in Vegas in December. I’m curious to see if he teaches this to less skilled golfers….and how.

 

If there’s a good way to help a 10-20 cap control low point this way, I’d be the next  to move to it.  I love do it this way myself and already teach the setup and pressure shift positions that are involved, I’m just a little  leery about having a 15 deliver bounce with a more vertical hand path.

 

 

Perfectly said. I was able to digest all the stuff from UTB2.0 and put it in my bag immediately and have never looked back. What VH is doing seems like it would require a lot of maintenance. 

 

Maybe it's an F-150 vs. Rousch Mustang kind of deal. 

[ThePaineTrain]

15 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Total guess on my part, so take it with a grain of salt. Photo of the 'parametric acceleration' I posted earlier in the thread (not that the club is accelerating, just the overall path) that comes from the hands going up and left (rotating through) along with your chest raising is what has the club going in with negative AoA just at impact and then immediatly just brushes the grass, without digging, the bounce helping also even though you're coming in steep : 'instaneous negative AoA' that gets zero'ed out in a hurry if you will... always what I thought pros where practicing just besides the ball, feeling the brushing thud, without any dig

My understanding of it, which may be wrong and also may be exactly the same as yours, is that while the club is swinging like a pendulum, the club head is traveling tangent to that arc. Shaft lean at impact needs to be dynamic, if the shaft angle isn't changing in this pic, then the path of the head matches the upper arc exactly, but as long as it's in the process of swinging, it's contributing negative, then 0, then positive AoA to the head.

[MPStrat]

The other part of this is that digging some isn’t the end of the world when you’re trying to hit this shot. Digging a massive trench is obviously not ideal, but taking a small divot or not taking any divot is fine. Some of it will depend on course conditions. All things equal, with a -10 aoa, there is going to be more turf disturbance on softer, wet ground than if the ground is very firm and dry. Not to mention things like upslope vs downslope that can affect things. 

Below is Jordan Spieth talking about how he hits this shot and how he and Phil often try to “cover the ball” with the clubface which is not the same thing as when people talk about how the body covers the ball.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cxec6MPL2H2/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

He is talking about how they are trying to drive the ball into the ground with a delofted clubface. They are starting with a wide open clubface, sometimes fanning it more open in the backswing and from there rotating and delofting the clubface trying to drive the ball into the ground. This “wide open to closed” motion is also what helps keep turf interaction reasonable.

[RacineBoxer]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:46 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

The issue I have and I’m going to talk to Joe about this.  Mid to high cap ams struggle when they spin pitches too much….add low launch and it’s problematic.  It’s why I teach a high launch low spin shot to most golfers because it’s easier to predict the results and doesn’t require as much practice..  Which is the vertical shaft deliver bounce method that prevails with most better short game instructors.  IMO, this method that worked for VH is for more highly skilled players.  
 

I’m probably going to co-host a school with Joe in Vegas in December. I’m curious to see if he teaches this to less skilled golfers….and how.

 

If there’s a good way to help a 10-20 cap control low point this way, I’d be the next  to move to it.  I love do it this way myself and already teach the setup and pressure shift positions that are involved, I’m just a little  leery about having a 15 deliver bounce with a more vertical hand path.

 

This is where my head is at too. Maybe not even just high handicappers. I'm a 4-5 handicap and I taught myself how to pitch with my 60* and I worked hard to minimize taking divots around my local practice green and I think I just intuitively taught myself to launch it low with a lot of spin. However, I've pretty much abandoned that technique the last 3-4 years for the more shaft vertical, shallower to the ball, utilize the bounce, using my 54 instead and my chipping & pitching has gotten way more consistent. My bad shots are a ton less bad. And I still chip/pitch it pretty low with a lot of spin. What I'm usually thinking is the Andrew Rice analogy of landing a plane. I don't use trackman so what I think and what I feel could be very different than what I actually do but I'm definitely onboard with the stand closer, shaft vertical approach. 

[RacineBoxer]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:39 PM, Qegurezi said:

The giveaway is the onlooking players turning straight around to Hovland.  some definite collaboration IMO.

 

I don't think so. I think they were just looking at each other like "holy sh## did you see that?". It was an eyeballs popping out of your head type of shot because of the level of difficulty and the precision to which he pulled it off. That was extremely difficult to do. 

[Valtiel]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:38 PM, airjammer said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cx0vzSQxTqH/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

i watch a lot of Rory. I don’t recall him ever playing a shot that his backswing looked like that. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxtT0r9N1Ex/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

looks a lot like Victor…I wonder if Rory had drunk some of the kool-aid

 

Rory has pulled off an almost identical shot back several seasons ago, it's a rare one for him but nothing new. Super impressive though and always really fun to watch. 

[Zitlow]

Pro Tip: Don't play pool with this guy for money.

 

[Glock917]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:42 AM, gators78 said:

Does anyone have a good answer of how you can be 10*+ down and not take a big divot?

 

Im a semi decent player but I relish the short game and feel its one of my strengths. I love playing this shot because it comes out low with a slew of spin. I also use my 60* T grind as well and on a level surface in normal conditions dont really take a divot more like a brush. You do have to feel like your hands coming up to level out the club its really hard to explain in text obviously but I recently saw this video which I thought was insightful.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUBylq3k2pM?si=964cwwzl6mvgeC_g

 

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

Good example and drill for the long flat spot with no divot you can get with a good pitching action:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqvDUqLAmqF/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Soloman1]

Yep, flat spot. The hands are rising, the pivot of the pendulum is not fixed.

[gators78]

3 hours ago, Glock917 said:

 

Im a semi decent player but I relish the short game and feel its one of my strengths. I love playing this shot because it comes out low with a slew of spin. I also use my 60* T grind as well and on a level surface in normal conditions dont really take a divot more like a brush. You do have to feel like your hands coming up to level out the club its really hard to explain in text obviously but I recently saw this video which I thought was insightful.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUBylq3k2pM?si=964cwwzl6mvgeC_g

 

 

 

This might be where I’m getting confused, But isn’t that counter to his Viktor/Sasho analysis video where he says the force of his hands is only like half a MPH up? Maybe his body is standing up and he’s not really pulling with the hands…I dunno.

 

I also have a 60* T grind and haven’t dared try this yet with that club because I might leave it in the ground compared to when I try with my 14* 56 that is already taking big chunks.

[hackerboy]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Good example and drill for the long flat spot with no divot you can get with a good pitching action:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqvDUqLAmqF/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

I am not worthy. That is a work of art. I could try this, but looks like a low self-esteem set up. 

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, gators78 said:

This might be where I’m getting confused, But isn’t that counter to his Viktor/Sasho analysis video where he says the force of his hands is only like half a MPH up? Maybe his body is standing up and he’s not really pulling with the hands…I dunno.

Most here have not seen that video. But yes in practice it does run counter to it. 

[Deadaimz]

Mind blown 58° ping glide wedge, 9° down, 7300 spin rate, 45° dynamic loft, launch angle of 27° and zero grooves🤯

[RacineBoxer]

Boom. For the Viktor stuff fast forward to 11 minute mark: 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by RacineBoxer

[hackerboy]

2 hours ago, RacineBoxer said:

Boom. For the Viktor stuff fast forward to 11 minute mark: 

 

My favorite movie is The Deerhunter. I know I’m addicted to golf when I liked parts of this just as much (well, I’ve seen Deerhunter 25+ times, so a little old- plus DeNiro is weak at spin loft). Seriously, good stuff. Thanks for posting. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by hackerboy