Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[MonteScheinblum]

Travis Fulton posted this before and after of Hovland.  This is part of how you are steeper without hitting down.  
 

I think this is a big deal and a large part of how I teach short game.  Ams that have low point issues will  make significant shifts to the right side and if you notice, most good short gamers move their head toward the target in the backswing.  

 

You just don’t have enough time to get left on shorter swings, so I say start left and stay left.

 

 

Im a believer in shifting/staying left in the backswing on not just short game shots, but partial wedges, flighted irons and shots out of the trees.  I call it the 4 lefts.  Players of all handicap levels love it.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[RichieHunt]

I agree with Joe on the subject.  I know that Joe is basing a lot of this off his work with one of the greatest short game players in the past 15 years in Brian Gay.  Brian had a much steeper AoA and higher Spin Loft than originally though.  I also know that he's based it off what many other great short game players are doing with their spin loft as well.

I also remember going to a Kelvin Miyahira clinic and being taught out of this (moving the head forward and creating a steeper AoA).  As much as I respect Kelvin's knowledge, at the time he was into the shallow bounce technique.  I was using more of the technique that Viktor is using (unwittingly) and my short game was really good and I hardly ever practiced it.

 

I remember Kelvin remarking how good my short game was on those shots and I was 'making the sound' that good short game players on Tour make, but he wanted me to get a little less grass.  I then changed to the shallow bounce technique and quite frankly my short game hasn't been nearly as good.  

 

So I'm going back to my old technique, now I just have to remember how to get back to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

Edited September 3, 2023 by RichieHunt

[Scottbox]

An eye-opening video that I think is pertinent to this thread:

 

 

[bell70]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, PostandGhost said:

I hate to be "that guy" who stresses over the details however I think it's important to use the correct vernacular when talking about this subject.  It feels like most people associate "steep" with hitting down on it.  The D plane deacon is not advocating to get steep by hitting down on it.  Hovland is getting a downward AoA but he is not hitting down, I know that sounds confusing.  What he has figured out is pretty brilliant.  All in due time...

Right on the nail. I recently bought Joe's patreon and he touches on this a lot. People hear "steep" and automatically imagine beaver pellets around the green....

[BeTheBall_]

This video on getting forward with the upper body drastically improved my chipping

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGyu2xhM170?si=k95DSy0ZCsHQlPCw

[Ezgolfer]

16 hours ago, BeTheBall_ said:

This video on getting forward with the upper body drastically improved my chipping

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGyu2xhM170?si=k95DSy0ZCsHQlPCw

Thanks … This is exactly what Hovland is doing .Ankle high one stop hoppers.

Tiger did this without trackman… amazing 

Get your shag bags out and hit ones without contacting blades of grass and practice……

[Chunkitgood]

If you analyze it in terms of how the ball and club interact, the old traditional way is better.  Unless a speciality shot a la Seve is required.

 

If you analyze it in terms of you’re likely to not do it exactly right, using bounce is better…except that as with all efforts to avoid error, it opens up the way for new and different errors.

 

Doing anything the right way is more consistent, reliable, and accurate.  But you have to learn to do it.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Joe posted Hovland’s trackman numbers.  This is me and the numbers are similar across the board.  
 

As you can see, doesn’t look “weird” or steep.

[MPStrat]

Really good explanation of why shaft lean is necessary to hit this shot. Joe answers a question posed by Larry Rinker:
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxJ6RUMNQOQ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[MPStrat]

Probably the best and most detailed post yet on why using the bounce with a vertical shaft at impact makes it impossible to achieve the launch angles of the best green-side wedge players in the world. These guys launch it sub 30. Usually 27-29*
 

The cliffs notes is that without the benefit of shaft lean, the angle of attack would have to be so extremely downward, aside from being extremely difficult to achieve and requiring potentially problematic movements, it would cause the spin loft to reach excessively high levels, destroying friction and reducing spin. 

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRHLA7u3nc/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[gators78]

The system has done wonders for Viktor that’s for sure. I’m on his page and it is counter to a lot of what’s been taught around shortgame the last few years. He’s reverse engineered how to get a ball in a sub 30* launch with high spin…you need a good bit of shaft lean, ball first contact (definitely not skidding into the ball), and then double digits down angle of attack.

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

28 minutes ago, gators78 said:

The system has done wonders for Viktor that’s for sure. I’m on his page and it is counter to a lot of what’s been taught around shortgame the last few years. He’s reverse engineered how to get a ball in a sub 30* launch with high spin…you need a good bit of shaft lean, ball first contact (definitely not skidding into the ball), and then double digits down angle of attack.

 

 

 

 

The issue I have and I’m going to talk to Joe about this.  Mid to high cap ams struggle when they spin pitches too much….add low launch and it’s problematic.  It’s why I teach a high launch low spin shot to most golfers because it’s easier to predict the results and doesn’t require as much practice..  Which is the vertical shaft deliver bounce method that prevails with most better short game instructors.  IMO, this method that worked for VH is for more highly skilled players.  
 

I’m probably going to co-host a school with Joe in Vegas in December. I’m curious to see if he teaches this to less skilled golfers….and how.

 

If there’s a good way to help a 10-20 cap control low point this way, I’d be the next  to move to it.  I love do it this way myself and already teach the setup and pressure shift positions that are involved, I’m just a little  leery about having a 15 deliver bounce with a more vertical hand path.

Edited September 17, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

There is a time and a place for all sorts of shots around the green. This is the high spin, low trajectory dart that is seen in all of the greatest pitchers of the ball on tour. Joe believes that this technique is extremely valuable for the average golfer because it is the easiest way for them to control their low point. He talks about that in great detail.

 

If anyone is interested in learning, his Patreon is $15/month. It’s worth a look if you’re trying these things. Some assumptions that one might have about how to accomplish the angle of attack could be a disaster. I’ve also seen some well intentioned ideas mentioned in this thread that are going to make achieving this impossible. I think there are also some misconceptions that could be drawn from reading the article.

 

To start

 

setup:

 

55 front foot/45 back foot - don’t lean into the front foot a ton at setup or it could encourage falling back into the trail side during the motion. 

 

ball position:

 

middle to slightly back with the handle forward

There is a lot more to it, and I would give more but the proceeds of his Patreon page are going toward a good cause and I don’t want to take away from it. 

[GolfTurkey]

9 days after knee surgery I was too intrigued by this and paid for the Patreon, watched all the videos and cleared myself to start chipping (no brain no pain).

 

I had the chipping yips after trying all the use the bounce stuff, and my solution to a bad shot was to try to get even shallower.

 

Going cross-handed “fixed” the yips. I noticed that my AoA was steeper cross handed because it’s very difficult not to set the wrists going back and unhinge coming down, and the funny thing is I thought it was wrong but didn’t care because I was getting much better results.

 

My club’s new chipping green is a nightmare that scares off most members because the turf is so tight with uneven lies and the green is rock hard and sloped. Within 10-15 min I got Mayo’s method and was hitting filthy nippers. I think it’s easier than anything else I have tried; the main thing (for me) was to let the club drop and not push/pull the handle.

[karl1111]

4 hours ago, gators78 said:

The system has done wonders for Viktor that’s for sure. I’m on his page and it is counter to a lot of what’s been taught around shortgame the last few years. He’s reverse engineered how to get a ball in a sub 30* launch with high spin…you need a good bit of shaft lean, ball first contact (definitely not skidding into the ball), and then double digits down angle of attack.

 

 

 

 

How do you use the bounce if its ball first?

[GolfTurkey]

53 minutes ago, karl1111 said:

How do you use the bounce if its ball first?

Don’t think I heard him mention the bounce in one of his videos.

 

It’s all about making clean contact and having low point after the ball; it’s the polar opposite of the school of thought that you should intentionally semi drop-kick the ball. 

[MonteScheinblum]

27 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Don’t think I heard him mention the bounce in one of his videos.

 

It’s all about making clean contact and having low point after the ball; it’s the polar opposite of the school of thought that you should intentionally semi drop-kick the ball. 

I can’t speak for others, but the way I describe it is do it just in case you don’t hit the ball first.  

[Trippels]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

IMO, this method that worked for VH is for more highly skilled players.  

Is this new method that worked for him needed to be a high skilled player, is it the most common among pros? Or is there unlimited potential with the safer technique you tend to teach?

[MonteScheinblum]

19 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Is this new method that worked for him needed to be a high skilled player, is it the most common among pros? Or is there unlimited potential with the safer technique you tend to teach?

A highly skilled player makes good use of the low launch high spinning shot.  I hit it for years until someone told me it was bad.  A highly skilled player also needs a high launch low spinning shot at times. 
 

The better the player, the more shots you want in your arsenal.

 

The way VH was doing it before was bad for any technique, IMO.

 

Way too far into right side.

 

I want to have more discussion with JM before I say definitively “the old way” is better for less skilled golfers.  At the current time I believe it is, but would love to hear I’m wrong.  I want the easiest way.

[pusb365]

Pleased to see this topic and the cause of Hovland's success. 

 

For the last few years I've been trying to improve my chipping by being shallow and use the bounce. 

 

Despite being a reasonable player, 2hcp, I just couldn't get the hang of it. My main issue was distance control as I just couldn't predict how the ball was going to come off the club face - sometimes it would be high and soft, sometimes low and spinny, sometimes it would roll out. 

 

I just felt like I had to keep at it, as any other way was 'wrong' and that you have to be shallow to chip well. 

 

I'm absolutely not knocking anyone who teaches that method or anyone who uses it, and it's my fault for sticking at it when it wasn't working, but I'm looking forward to going back to being steep and having shaft lean and feeling like I'm not doing the wrong thing! 

[MPStrat]

[GolfTurkey]

Explained totally differently, but I reckon this is almost exactly the same technique as what Mayo is teaching:

 

\

 

[Brian Manzella]

One of the great things about the internet is everything is time-stamped.

 

https://x.com/brianmanzella/status/1600483849359826944?s=20

 

 

[MPStrat]

9 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

One of the great things about the internet is everything is time-stamped.

 

https://x.com/brianmanzella/status/1600483849359826944?s=20

 

 

You and Joe have similarities in how you explain the backswing for this shot. Beyond that, there are some key differences in his downswing preferences. Particularly through the bottom. 

[gators78]

18 hours ago, karl1111 said:

How do you use the bounce if its ball first?

You don’t use the bounce, at least not before hitting the ball. 
 

There’s a lot in his videos and it’ll take a while to process. I’ll do a poor job framing it but one of the arguments is angle of attack, and specifically being “shallow,” doesn’t inherently mean it’s better. You could be 2* down and still hit it fat, or hit a line drive. Can it work and be helpful in certain cases, yes absolutely. 

 

The “hmm interesting” thing for me was Ben Crane is helping Joe do a bunch of these videos. Ben used to be I think with James Siekmann who was a big early proponent of using bounce. This stuff seems totally the other direction. 

This isn’t giving anything away since he posted it on his IG, but the test is trying to hit a shot 15 yards, with sub 30* launch, and have over 5,000 rpms. With a 60* wedge. It’s only possible if you’re doing the technique correctly. 

[umamimami]

Echoing Monte's Post above:

 

Mayo illustrates how a high handicapper might swing in one the earlier SG videos. in one of his Patreon videos from early August.

The method that SGChef suggests appears to my eyes to play better for the high handicapper, who might be prone to doing what Mayo illustrates. If you struggle with chucking your hands, then getting that club upright at impact will guide you away from that error. But you lose out on stopping power. Tragically, the method SGChef uses denies you the shaft-lean that you need in Mayo's method for a low chip shot.

 

So if you're a tidier player, Mayo's method has downwards components from which you can gain a dart/laser that spins.

 

There's a cost to simplifying the motion. If only in comparison to the results the more complex motion offers. On the upside, SGCHef's method offers a decrease in difficulty and potentially a decrease in likelihood of you making a massive mess when you hit your first chip in a week.

 

[GolfTurkey]

1 hour ago, umamimami said:

Mayo illustrates how a high handicapper might swing in one the earlier SG videos. in one of his Patreon videos from 

So if you're a tidier player, Mayo's method has downwards components from which you can gain a dart/laser that spins.

 

There's a cost to simplifying the motion. If only in comparison to the results the more complex motion offers. On the upside, SGCHef's method offers a decrease in difficulty and potentially a decrease in likelihood of you making a massive mess when you hit your first chip in a week.

 

it’s an interesting one and I know from bitter experience that stuff that works around the practice green doesn’t necessarily work on the course, but I don’t see anything inherently complex in the Mayo method. 
 

Every method has a few key things you have to do for it to work, and I don’t see anything difficult prescribed. I also think that if someone gets it wrong it’s most likely going to be when they don’t get low point after the ball (still waiting to see someone skull a chip because low point is far after the ball).

 

If low point is back from the ball then almost by definition the shaft won’t be leaning as much and the bounce could engage and save the shot, provided the turf conditions allow it. 

[Deadaimz]

6 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Sure would be intresting if devolps some new wedge technology.  I wonder how different it could be from what is already out. Great thread BTW, I'll definitely be joining the patreon as my pitching could really use some major help.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Deadaimz
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[doctor220]

9 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Grooves stuff drives me crazy . It’s about face roughness if we’re talking fairway shots. 

[Brian Manzella]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

You and Joe have similarities in how you explain the backswing for this shot. Beyond that, there are some key differences in his downswing preferences. Particularly through the bottom. 

I have no idea how he explains anything about a short game shot. I put a lot of my ideas on social and anyone can access them–in fact, I want them to.

 

I never saw anyone ever explain it the way I did in my Twitter video before I did my video. And I look at a LOT of stuff and probably lead the world in attending large seminars, so I've seen a lot.

 

For the record, I'd pay to see a short game teach off. Even better, I'd love to be involved.