Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[Deadaimz]

12 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

Honestly, this is such a kookbird debate. Look, if you wanna spend your life trying to get 10* down and have a lob wedge go no higher than your ankle just to impress your buds, then hey, live your life. Or, you can learn a variety of shots that work in specific situations for the kinds of courses you play and the kinds of conditions you face. Whatever you think of JT and his resting b***ch face, he has all the shots. I'll take his short game over whatever Trackman Mastro is serving up any day of the week.

JM is not saying this shot is the be all save all. It seems this should be a stock shot for anyone around the greens and is backed by data.

[GolfTurkey]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRHLA7u3nc/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Deadaimz]

16 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRHLA7u3nc/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

I love the information provided by Mayo. He is providing a foundation based of data for a optimal pitch shot.

[GolfTurkey]

6 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

I love the information provided by Mayo. He is providing a foundation based of data for a optimal pitch shot.

 

Agreed, some will says that's too technical but I think more solid data and information is always beneficial.

 

e.g. I used to ding far more trees that I was trying to hook / slice the ball around when the common orthodoxy was that path determined starting direction. 

[Deadaimz]

10 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Agreed, some will says that's too technical but I think more solid data and information is always beneficial.

 

e.g. I used to ding far more trees that I was trying to hook / slice the ball around when the common orthodoxy was that path determined starting direction. 

Knowledge, information is so powerful especially when consistently measured. It gives us hacks a target to achieve

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Deadaimz said:

I think I'm struggling with how to create the down. I know he has videos where it is hinge and release the com but the one video that stood in my mind is vh saying he feels like he is throwing it straight down. Which is what I feel I am doing maybe why I'm not getting the desirable spin numbers? I do know though that this technique feel for for me is the best feeling for pitching I've ever had and the most consistent. The only thing left is to verify on a round of golf.

Shaft lean, quite negative AoA, but not digging to China through long flat spot from hand path and body rotation; Porzak’s ABR : ‘always be rotating’, finishing tall and facing the target (my interpretation)

[MPStrat]

Joe posted a video of Justin Suh hitting the low spinner:

 

 https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxZHwW_vUpT/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

No hanging left. Still a shift into the trail side before he takes away the club:

 

 

 

Good view of his lateral sequence:

 

 

 

 

 

[rooski]

When I first started taking golf seriously a couple years ago I was able to hit absolutely ripping one hop stoppers on any green and in trying to learn the 0 shaft lean strategy I've totally lost it.

 

I think what Mayo is saying is exactly how I used to do that, very exciting to run into all this lately

Edited September 20, 2023 by rooski

[rooski]

Also this is Phil thinking "I tried to teach all these guys hinge and hold 15 years ago"

 

[Nard_S]

The key to good chipping is using upper body rotation and very little lower rotation. It will have shaft lean & arrive shallow.

[GolfTurkey]

Example of too shallow:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuZh3aUqc3R/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[baudi]

In stead of all the blahdiblah etcetera Mr. Professional Golf Swing Guesser could have handed over VH the highest lofted wedge in the bag (72 for me) and then simply ask to hit crisp low chips. End of lesson. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

 

[doctor220]

7 hours ago, Scottbox said:

Honestly, this is such a kookbird debate. Look, if you wanna spend your life trying to get 10* down and have a lob wedge go no higher than your ankle just to impress your buds, then hey, live your life. Or, you can learn a variety of shots that work in specific situations for the kinds of courses you play and the kinds of conditions you face. Whatever you think of JT and his resting b***ch face, he has all the shots. I'll take his short game over whatever Trackman Mastro is serving up any day of the week.

30 launch isn’t really low , it’s just not high. 
 

Don’t really understand the JT comment. JT isn’t trying to help you have a good short game. It’s just a discussion on how to hit the short game shots that pros hit 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, baudi said:

In stead of all the blahdiblah etcetera Mr. Professional Golf Swing Guesser could have handed over VH the highest lofted wedge in the bag (72 for me) and then simply ask to hit crisp low chips. End of lesson. 

 

I’m not so sure about that. Viktor was really struggling. When you carry around the misconception that steep is bad in the short game like he did, his low chip would probably come off the face hot and out of control. 

 

[jonsnow]

Trying to reconcile these two schools of thought is very confusing to me. I always thought I was supposed to keep the left wrist firm & have a little shaft lean on short pitch shots unless I was trying to hit a flop. I've always struggled with low point control with my default being to hit most of these shots a little heavy. I also thought it was a death move to get the clubhead behind you going back but Parker likes the club more "rounded", I think is the term he uses, going back. I've watched as much of both SGC & JM without signing up for either & the more I watch the more confused I get.

[MK7Golf21]

lets not forget what modern golf instruction did to Tigers chipping in 2014 +

 

 

[MPStrat]

21 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

lets not forget what modern golf instruction did to Tigers chipping in 2014 +

 

 

Joe has a post about this on his patreon. He goes into more detail but believes during this time Tiger’s low point was too far behind the ball. 

[MK7Golf21]

14 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Joe has a post about this on his patreon. He goes into more detail but believes during this time Tiger’s low point was too far behind the ball. 

 

it was right when he went to Como. I think Como was trying to get him less steep possibly and he was in between patterns with Foley. They were saying he was trying to throw the right hand into it for bounce instead of handle dragging and was jamming the leading edge behind the ball. Still, was caused by modern golf instruction. 

[baudi]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

I’m not so sure about that. Viktor was really struggling. When you carry around the misconception that steep is bad in the short game like he did, his low chip would probably come off the face hot and out of control. 

 

Well, yes. This practice supports JM's theory.  A chip with a LLL-wedge requires a clean strike, with a downward blow and some extra shaft lean. Without doing anything extreme, misses (fat, skull) look really ugly. Do it right and you rehearse at least 1 good chip shot around the green.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

it was right when he went to Como. I think Como was trying to get him less steep possibly and he was in between patterns with Foley. They were saying he was trying to throw the right hand into it for bounce instead of handle dragging and was jamming the leading edge behind the ball. Still, was caused by modern golf instruction. 

Interesting. Now that you mention it I remember Tiger saying after chunking several chips about how it was a new release pattern he was trying. 

[umamimami]

3 hours ago, jonsnow said:

Trying to reconcile these two schools of thought is very confusing to me. I always thought I was supposed to keep the left wrist firm & have a little shaft lean on short pitch shots unless I was trying to hit a flop. I've always struggled with low point control with my default being to hit most of these shots a little heavy. I also thought it was a death move to get the clubhead behind you going back but Parker likes the club more "rounded", I think is the term he uses, going back. I've watched as much of both SGC & JM without signing up for either & the more I watch the more confused I get.

 

Jon they are advocating for two different styles/types of shot. You can’t reconcile the techniques because they, when done as advocated, require different inputs and will produce different results  
 

If you’re looking to improve your game take these two styles out to the chipping green and figure out the differences and when one is more appropriate than the other.

 

From my testing, I preferred mayos method on a downslope to an elevated green, such as in a bowl near a bunker, over SGchefs. 
 

Conversely, SGChefs method appeals to me when the hole is on a plateau that the green slopes up towards. 
 

Of course you can make both methods work but I think it’s a percentage play that’s unique to each golfer and their ability and the shot that’s in front of them.

 

Knowing thyself is more helpful than knowing how other people do it.

 

You catch a lot fat. You know this about yourself, it’s probably the best way for you to improve. Trust your awareness and follow it and it will guide you towards improvement in ways that internet strangers cannot. But here I am as a stranger, suggesting towel drill chips XD

[GolfTurkey]

My random musing for the day is that it's often said on this site that if there are one or a small number of tour pro's doing something different in the full swing to the rest of them (e.g. Daly and Bubba's overswing, Furyk and Wolff's loop, Ray Floyd's inside takeaway etc.) then those are outliers that have probably grooved other pieces in their swing to offset a more difficult way of doing things. 

 

Using the same logic, could be concluded that Day and Stricker are great at the short game DESPITE their technique, not because of it? 

[MPStrat]

17 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

My random musing for the day is that it's often said on this site that if there are one or a small number of tour pro's doing something different in the full swing to the rest of them (e.g. Daly and Bubba's overswing, Furyk and Wolff's loop, Ray Floyd's inside takeaway etc.) then those are outliers that have probably grooved other pieces in their swing to offset a more difficult way of doing things. 

 

Using the same logic, could be concluded that Day and Stricker are great at the short game DESPITE their technique, not because of it? 

Good question.
 

I don’t subscribe to the theory that tour players with unique moves succeed despite them. That’s sort of an oversimplified and arrogant stance IMO. There is too much we don’t know about humans swinging a golf club to make that claim. 
 

Day and Stricker’s short game technique works at a high level for them and others. But also, I’ve never seen their trackman numbers to know if they’re actually really shallow when they’re trying to launch it low. 
 

[MPStrat]

[Deadaimz]

8 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I wonder who he is talking about.

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, Deadaimz said:

I wonder who he is talking about.

Not sure but someone should tell him that when using the word “value” that golf instruction is not a commodity.

Just kidding @johnrobison 😂 

[baudi]

Joseph Mayo is all about Joseph Mayo and how Joseph Mayo invented and reinvented himself to be Joseph Mayo. 

It is not that I disapprove his findings (as notably stated above) but man it is golf instruction not rocket science.

So how many debates does he need to prove himself in the theomachy of golf titans? 

He should grow up, use less words and act as a professional. 

 

 

 

[jonsnow]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:51 AM, baudi said:

In stead of all the blahdiblah etcetera Mr. Professional Golf Swing Guesser could have handed over VH the highest lofted wedge in the bag (72 for me) and then simply ask to hit crisp low chips. End of lesson. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

 

You carry a 72 degree wedge? Did it come with a face mask?

[Hstead]

So I joined the patreon and watched all of the videos.  In my humble opinion, this is a lot about semantics, and playing two different types of shots.  In Joes videos, he has Ben Crane hit a high soft floater with a shallow angle of attack.  In my opinion, this is the shot Parker teaches and this is a shot that every good golfer must have.  Joe admits that he doesn't think every shot requires a double digit AoA and certainly the high floater doesn't.  I am not talking about a flop shot, I am talking about a high soft pitch that you control the run-out distance with the decent angle vs spin, although I can hit a high floater with spin too.  It is easy, you just open the face more and add speed.  This is more of what the "use the bounce" instructors teach.

 

The shot Joe is talking about is more of a chip by my definition and not pitch.  Joe argues that it is like throwing darts and more accurate.  That is 100% golfer dependent and debatable.  For me, it all depends on the shot at hand which is more "accurate".  Steph Curry doesn't shoot 3's on a low trajectory because it is more accurate.  Again, depends on the circumstances, the lie, the slope, green firmness, speed, etc.  I feel like I am just as accurate all things being equal with a high shot.

 

The shots I am talking about are 25 yards and less, greenside.  If I am 40+ in the fairway, then I am 100% launching it sub 30 and controlling the trajectory with max spin.  But around the greens, if there are slopes, and the greens are fast and firm like the ones I play daily, then I prefer the higher softer shot.

 

The high shot in my opinion is easier to control.  The examples Joe has on patreon of pros hitting his preferred shot are all over the place with their spin.  Sometimes Ben Crane spins is 4100 and a two shots later spins is 6500.  To me, that is less consistent than the higher softer shot that isn't spin dependent.   Ben hits four shots from 15 yards.  The first two run well past the hole and he would have had putts over 10 feet.  The next one he hits a foot and the next one he holes out.  That isn't consistent.

 

I also believe that higher handicap players would benefit more from the "use the bounce" model because it has a larger margin of error.  You can hit 3" behind the ball and get a decent results.  

 

Here is a video I shot real quick this morning.  I didn't have the camera set in the ideal position because I was aiming 10' left to allow for the slope, so the plane looks a little steeper and more outside than reality.  This shot was 22 yards, and I had to carry it about 15 yards and let it drift down the slope.  Greens were average firmness and running close to 11 on the stimp.  The lie was tight super wet bermuda into the grain.  You can hear me splashing the ground before I hit the first one.  The first shot is Joe's method and my guess is launched no more than 27* and had quite a bit of spin.  The second shot is more of what Parker teaches and had a peak height of 12+ feet would be my guess and little spin.  You can see with the Parker shot I hit at least an inch behind the ball intentionally.  Both resulted in the same distance putt.

 

 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, Hstead said:

So I joined the patreon and watched all of the videos.  In my humble opinion, this is a lot about semantics, and playing two different types of shots.  In Joes videos, he has Ben Crane hit a high soft floater with a shallow angle of attack.  In my opinion, this is the shot Parker teaches and this is a shot that every good golfer must have.  Joe admits that he doesn't think every shot requires a double digit AoA and certainly the high floater doesn't.  I am not talking about a flop shot, I am talking about a high soft pitch that you control the run-out distance with the decent angle vs spin, although I can hit a high floater with spin too.  It is easy, you just open the face more and add speed.  This is more of what the "use the bounce" instructors teach.

 

The shot Joe is talking about is more of a chip by my definition and not pitch.  Joe argues that it is like throwing darts and more accurate.  That is 100% golfer dependent and debatable.  For me, it all depends on the shot at hand which is more "accurate".  Steph Curry doesn't shoot 3's on a low trajectory because it is more accurate.  Again, depends on the circumstances, the lie, the slope, green firmness, speed, etc.  I feel like I am just as accurate all things being equal with a high shot.

 

The shots I am talking about are 25 yards and less, greenside.  If I am 40+ in the fairway, then I am 100% launching it sub 30 and controlling the trajectory with max spin.  But around the greens, if there are slopes, and the greens are fast and firm like the ones I play daily, then I prefer the higher softer shot.

 

The high shot in my opinion is easier to control.  The examples Joe has on patreon of pros hitting his preferred shot are all over the place with their spin.  Sometimes Ben Crane spins is 4100 and a two shots later spins is 6500.  To me, that is less consistent than the higher softer shot that isn't spin dependent.   Ben hits four shots from 15 yards.  The first two run well past the hole and he would have had putts over 10 feet.  The next one he hits a foot and the next one he holes out.  That isn't consistent.

 

I also believe that higher handicap players would benefit more from the "use the bounce" model because it has a larger margin of error.  You can hit 3" behind the ball and get a decent results.  

 

Here is a video I shot real quick this morning.  I didn't have the camera set in the ideal position because I was aiming 10' left to allow for the slope, so the plane looks a little steeper and more outside than reality.  This shot was 22 yards, and I had to carry it about 15 yards and let it drift down the slope.  Greens were average firmness and running close to 11 on the stimp.  The lie was tight super wet bermuda into the grain.  You can hear me splashing the ground before I hit the first one.  The first shot is Joe's method and my guess is launched no more than 27* and had quite a bit of spin.  The second shot is more of what Parker teaches and had a peak height of 12+ feet would be my guess and little spin.  You can see with the Parker shot I hit at least an inch behind the ball intentionally.  Both resulted in the same distance putt.

 

 

As long as we can acknowledge that the two methods are different, we can discuss the pros and cons and our own preferences. I’m glad that has been accepted.

 

Joe has been adamant that “his shot” must be a strength in the arsenal to be among the elite around the greens on tour.

 

Truth is, I like both depending on the situation. If I’m trying to stick a pitch shot to a back pin, I’m not hitting a high soft floater.  There are many instances when I would, though.
 

Where some might disagree is that I think you can be great at both shots and suck terribly at both shots. Neither method works well without good technique and practice. I think once good technique is established less practice is needed to remain serviceable.

 

I also think a beginner who is terrible around the greens should learn Joe’s shot first. It think there are elements that could help their full swing as well, though they should know there are differences.

 

I think your criticism of Crane’s variability in spin is a fair one. This could also be called a variability in friction. Which could also be called variability in contact. Variability in friction and spin due to the always unavoidable human error is one of the cons in Joe’s techinique. Neither technique is superior in all areas.
 

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