Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

Monte maybe it will take your game to another level? The missing piece like VH. It sure won't hurt to have that shot in your arsenal. Look forward to hearing about your discovery on the shot. 

Definitely working on it myself.  I use myself as a Guinea pig when I hear new ideas that make sense to me.

[Three_Jack]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Definitely working on it myself.  I use myself as a Guinea pig when I hear new ideas that make sense to me.

 

Pretty cool to hear that you trying different stuff at this point in your career and your knowledge base.

[Bob M]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Joe and I are in the process of putting a school together in Vegas.  Trying to make it work out for both of our schedules.  I’m anxious to see him teach this to a 8-15 cap.

 Me too! I find what Joe is saying, and how elite golfers are using it, fascinating and am trying to take what will work for a 15-20 capper like me. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I think Joe's method really requires elite arc height and low point control to work well, which is likely to take much more time to develop than I have to give it. 

 

BTW, I really like BJ Doucett's videos on BBG...and have also gotten a lot out of UTB 2.0! 

[Nard_S]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:41 AM, Deadaimz said:

 

 

This is pretty much how I do it. Sternum & weight left, right hand on top, good connection too. The idea of a chip follow through being as relevant as a full swing follow through helps.I get a lot of spin and a lot of consistency from it. If I want it higher w/ less spin, I move the ball up in stance but motion is the same. I will say I can control the bite of deloft with finger roll of lead hand too, so I can soften or harden that aspect.To me "use the bounce " is a thought to keep the hands and motion moving through which still matters in chipping. That stabby, stall thing has purpose but in general, it is not good and leads to a ton of inconsistent results. So you can call it "use the bounce" but I see it as keep things moving forward.

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Bob M said:

  I think Joe's method really requires elite arc height and low point control to work well, which is likely to take much more time to develop than I have to give it

I’m glad you brought up arc height. This is a good point. But not just with Joe’s method. There aren’t many great chippers who drop-kick everything off of tight lies. It’s just that a slight drop kick is a better miss than laying the sod over it. 
 

IMO, the reason one of the big differentiating factors between pros and ams is low point control has some to do with pressure shifts and body positioning, but you can do all of those things right and still fat it and thin it regularly. 
 

There is more to it. Good low point control is more complicated than pressure shifts. Controlling the arc height is as or more important. 

[PracticeSwinger]

20 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

There is more to it. Good low point control is more complicated than pressure shifts. Controlling the arc height is as or more important. 

Low point control, from driver to putter has to be the most important aspect of the golf swing... once you always make sure your drives go a decent amount, your approaches are relatively pin high and that the vast majority of your putts result in a tap in - tough to play bad golf from there... how you go about to make sure you have complete low point control, now that's a different story

[GolfTurkey]

Ok here's the GolfTurkey rant of the day...

 

There seems to be some discounting of the steep chipping method on account that it requires some low point control, arc height control etc. (not withstanding that graphic from Adam Young that it may tolerate greater arc height variability).

 

Everything outside a two foot putt in golf is effing difficult (and yippers struggle with those too). The best in the world hit some stinker shots every time they tee it up and the greatest athletes in the world routinely flounder when they try golf for the first time.

 

Putting has less club head speed and differences in lies than chipping, and yet starting the ball on the intended  line with the intended speed is incredibly difficult. It takes technique, coordination, skill acquisition, repetition etc.

 

Every and any technique in golf requires the player to be able to control arc height, low point, club head speed, path, face etc. There is no such thing as an automatic or easy technique. We are talking about some techniques maybe making things a little less hard and some making things a little more hard, but never easy. Using the bounce has been flogged to death for years and yet the vast majority of golfers still suck at chipping, it ain't easy.

 

If your only criticism of any technique is that it requires some skill, then in the immortal words of Billie Eilish, "duh".

[MPStrat]

8 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

There seems to be some discounting of the steep chipping method on account that it requires some low point control, arc height control etc. (not withstanding that graphic from Adam Young that it may tolerate greater arc height variability).There is no such thing as an automatic or easy technique. We are talking about some techniques maybe making things a little less hard and some making things a little more hard, but never easy. Using the bounce has been flogged to death for years and yet the vast majority of golfers still suck at chipping, it ain't easy.

Golfers cannot ever get away with hitting the ball fat with the steeper method, but they have a license to hit the ball fat every time with the shallower method and that’s a good thing because it is likely to happen more often with that technique anyway. 

 

IMO the shallower method allows golfers to be less penalized while using “worse” technique. I think that’s about the only clear advantage to it as a stock shot. I don’t think it’s better overall, though. 

[slytown]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:53 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Travis Fulton posted this before and after of Hovland.  This is part of how you are steeper without hitting down.  
 

I think this is a big deal and a large part of how I teach short game.  Ams that have low point issues will  make significant shifts to the right side and if you notice, most good short gamers move their head toward the target in the backswing.  

 

You just don’t have enough time to get left on shorter swings, so I say start left and stay left.

 

 

Im a believer in shifting/staying left in the backswing on not just short game shots, but partial wedges, flighted irons and shots out of the trees.  I call it the 4 lefts.  Players of all handicap levels love it.

 

 

 

I was talking to my wife about this and it was a lightbulb moment for her. She struggles blading the ball on short shots.  I showed her how to assess lies in the rough and how putting weight in the front is good for most lies and putting weight in your middle or on the back foot helps with fluffy lies. It was also a good lesson in spin. She always putts off of the fringe, and I showed her that covering the ball with a wedge and weight on your front for a chip shot adds some spin and control around the green versus putting, especially for downhill shots from the fringe.

 

[Nard_S]

Low point control is in setup and in minimizing hand &arm dominance. Delegating more swing path to sternum/shoulder and leaving face control/shaft lean to hands is how you neutralize that variation.

[MK7Golf21]

I've only taken one chipping lesson and was from a short game/putting guru instructor years ago. He wanted me to keep my nose over my front foot, two clubheads between feet, handle always pointing in middle of body no matter ball position for high or low shot, rotate with the upper body and hit with the right shoulder, lower body doesn't really move. Looks similar to those pictures Monte posted of Victor before and after. I'll have to say I haven't really stuck with the nose over front foot but maybe I should revisit.

[Zitlow]

@MPStrat Does Mayo use the steeper method on pitch shots?

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

@MPStrat Does Mayo use the steeper method on pitch shots?

Yes 

[airjammer]

I’ve been a steep angle of attack chipper for 20 years now. Once I leaned the low launch angle spinner I was hooked. I’ve overdone the shaft lean though and that’s pretty much all I can hit. My local courses don’t really require a high launch angle chipping/pitching action to hold greens so it generally doesn’t punish me except when I go for my annual Arizona golf trip as I get short sided. 

[Golfbeat]

Some more on the topic.

 

 

 

[Deadaimz]

Hard video to watch

[DaveGoodrich]

I haven't watched all the videos linked in this thread, but would it be fair to say that the technique Mayo is promoting is basically just a small normal iron swing (downward AOA, forward shaft lean, ball first contact), but with your ball position/upper body/weight all pre-set forward?  

 

I think the emphasis of "steep" vs. "shallow" as the difference between these techniques has the potential to mislead some folks.  12 degrees is 2 minutes on a clock.  So to visualize 12*, think of a line going from 13 minutes after the hour through the center of the clock.  Most of us, intuitively, would probably think of that as pretty shallow, and when you think of it this way, it is pretty easy to see why this can be done without taking much of a divot.  I suspect that many of us probably picture something steeper than that when trying to visualize a -12* AOA, and many of us who "use the bounce" may actually already be close to that much "down."    I think the real differences between the techniques has more to do with ball position, weight distribution, and shaft lean at impact.  So some folks may not be well served by the thought of needing to be "steeper" on their short game shots.  I see way more folks that are too steep, rather than too shallow, but that is because they have the ball back in their stance, etc.  

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, DaveGoodrich said:

I haven't watched all the videos linked in this thread, but would it be fair to say that the technique Mayo is promoting is basically just a small normal iron swing (downward AOA, forward shaft lean, ball first contact), but with your ball position/upper body/weight all pre-set forward?  

 

I think the emphasis of "steep" vs. "shallow" as the difference between these techniques has the potential to mislead some folks.  12 degrees is 2 minutes on a clock.  So to visualize 12*, think of a line going from 13 minutes after the hour through the center of the clock.  Most of us, intuitively, would probably think of that as pretty shallow, and when you think of it this way, it is pretty easy to see why this can be done without taking much of a divot.  I suspect that many of us probably picture something steeper than that when trying to visualize a -12* AOA, and many of us who "use the bounce" may actually already be close to that much "down."    I think the real differences between the techniques has more to do with ball position, weight distribution, and shaft lean at impact.  So some folks may not be well served by the thought of needing to be "steeper" on their short game shots.  I see way more folks that are too steep, rather than too shallow, but that is because they have the ball back in their stance, etc.  

 

Joe who teaches both the best in the world and regular golfers says he sees the opposite among both. When you say you are seeing way more folks who are too steep on their pitch shots you are talking about turf disturbance. That is not the same as angle of attack. To really know the angle of attack, launch and spin, it must be measured on a good launch monitor like trackman. 
 

Some of the videos you didn’t watch and a lot more on his patreon disprove some of your theories. 
 

This shot requires more down and across than you’d ever want to be with even a short iron or pitching wedge. There us often more to learning this technique than simply pre-setting forward and ball back. You also don’t want to pre-set too much weight forward or it will have the opposite effect of what was intended. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by MPStrat

[iacas]

On 10/17/2023 at 2:14 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m still open to find out it’s an easier way for less than elite players.  I’m not sold on that yet.

 

Yeah. I think the "use the glide" type pitch shots are more forgiving and a bit easier to get. Especially if the player can be "lazy" enough to let gravity and the club do enough for you.

 

I don't know that I agree with Joe that the bounce is irrelevant. Maybe for this shot (and I don't even really agree for this shot, because it can give you the confidence and feel how the club interacts after the ball is gone, that still matters), but not for your other shots with your wedges. Glide/bounce still matters for those.

 

Also, stopping the ball with trajectory is, IMO (open to changing it, but it's IMO for now) more consistent for many than stopping it with spin.

 

But, this is a useful shot.

 

On 10/17/2023 at 4:16 AM, ezpz said:

What's the tl;dr on hitting this type of chip shot? Over the last couple of years I've gotten pretty good at using the bounce (definition of pretty good for me as an am is avoiding big mistakes LOL) but would love to fool around with this.

 

You might already have this shot.

 

I thought this was something different, so I tried it for awhile. Turns out I was already capable of hitting this shot. I set up with the ball even slightly forward, the toe down but the face rolled open just a little. 60° wedge. Weight left. During the backswing, I let my head move down and forward a little (more left side tilt than you'd think, by a bit), and then I'd let my head come up a bit but still be forward on the downswing.

• -11°
• 5200 RPM
• Ball traveled 10.3 yards
• Ball stopped about 7 feet after it hit

I played today and hit three of these shots when necessary. The other times… I played a higher, softer shot that stopped with trajectory.

[ewaldbeukes]

I had found this info somewhere before and I chipped really well... then some swing changes and ala Tiger it all went to poo. Started getting the weight and sternum forward again and it cleaned up all the contact.

 

You dont have to chip and pitch like this, but you owe it to yourself to try it at the very least.

[CasualLie]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:56 PM, iacas said:

 

Yeah. I think the "use the glide" type pitch shots are more forgiving and a bit easier to get. Especially if the player can be "lazy" enough to let gravity and the club do enough for you.

 

I don't know that I agree with Joe that the bounce is irrelevant. Maybe for this shot (and I don't even really agree for this shot, because it can give you the confidence and feel how the club interacts after the ball is gone, that still matters), but not for your other shots with your wedges. Glide/bounce still matters for those.

 

Also, stopping the ball with trajectory is, IMO (open to changing it, but it's IMO for now) more consistent for many than stopping it with spin.

 

But, this is a useful shot.

 

 

You might already have this shot.

 

I thought this was something different, so I tried it for awhile. Turns out I was already capable of hitting this shot. I set up with the ball even slightly forward, the toe down but the face rolled open just a little. 60° wedge. Weight left. During the backswing, I let my head move down and forward a little (more left side tilt than you'd think, by a bit), and then I'd let my head come up a bit but still be forward on the downswing.

• -11°
• 5200 RPM
• Ball traveled 10.3 yards
• Ball stopped about 7 feet after it hit

I played today and hit three of these shots when necessary. The other times… I played a higher, softer shot that stopped with trajectory.

 

Great post.

 

Other factors are "talent" and situational.  I played a lot of golf with this guy who was a short hitter, white tees he was deadly.  A totally messed up swing that robbed him of power but straight.  And really good hands around the green.  He used loft to stop the ball around the hole.  Me, I use everything from 8i - 60 playing chips wherever possible using spin/roll.  The guy would always get on my case about it trying to show me his technique.  He just wouldn't understand I have not been playing as long as him so I don't have that talent for lob type shots everywhere,. I'll hit them when necessary (short-sided or going over a bunker), but I'm going to pick the chip shot wherever possible because for me, I'm confident, and a lot less can go wrong.

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

*facepalm*

Edited October 24, 2023 by GolfTurkey
blindness

[iacas]

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Here's a nice video by James Ridyard explaining some of the AoA stuff in depth.

 

Yes, it's like five posts up. 😄 

[GolfTurkey]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Yes, it's like five posts up. 😄 

 

Takes a while for things to arrive in Australia

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Takes a while for things to arrive in Australia

 

And they're upside down.

[Glock917]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:56 PM, iacas said:

Also, stopping the ball with trajectory is, IMO (open to changing it, but it's IMO for now) more consistent for many than stopping it with spin.

 

What is cool about this shot that I have discovered is that with the margin of error i have, which I deduce it to the first groove and up to 4th groove, it can play both types with the same swing and intention. 

 

Lets say I hit it on that 1st to 2nd groove it will come out lower with tons of spin while on the high side around the 4th will come out increasingly higher with less spin. The satisfying part is that they both have relatively the same carry. 

 

[Deadaimz]

I feel like I'm stealing at his patreon price the information and details I've received have for exceeded the cost imo. The new video that came out I would have never thought that wanting a dirty face would be beneficial. In retrospect it seems logical.

[umamimami]

Keeping up with Mayo’s Patreon I’ve seen a bunch of Hovlands swings. I’m starting to think a bunch of higher handicaps would really benefit from Mayo’s type of short game advice. Hovland makes a bunch of the typical “swing faults” work for him in the full swing. He definitely doesn’t have a prototypical swing pattern.
 

I think the “use the bounce camp” is great for people who have more typical/“taught” patterns. If you’re a yoink it inside and scoop it type player - then learning what Mayo advocates will help. Certainly it will give you a way to get higher spin rates and less blades around the green while not being a huge departure from your typical swing pattern.

 

Getting rotary and using the bounce is great, but if you’ve built the rest of your game around a totally different pattern then I can totally see that you’re going to dread hitting delicate chips because all of the advice is telling you to do something that you pretty much don’t do anywhere else on the course. How could a casual player develop finesse/distance-control with a motion that they don’t do anywhere else? These players don’t use their torso rotation to power the swing, why should we expect them to be able to fine-tune the amount of force generated with their turn at all?

 

On the other hand I think that a lot of “use the bounce “ camp claims (perhaps rightfully so) that by learning their technique you’ll see improvement in your distance shots too. I think they’re right - if your goal is to transition to a more shallow and rotation type swing. 

[Deadaimz]

Are grooves on a wedge as important as we think (myth) or is technique the biggest factor? Mayo and Hoveland prove they can get really good numbers with a groove less wedge.

[GolfTurkey]

2 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

Are grooves on a wedge as important as we think (myth) or is technique the biggest factor? Mayo and Hoveland prove they can get really good numbers with a groove less wedge.

 

Yes, on a perfect lie with no debris / moisture involved