Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[MPStrat]

Manzella vs Mayo

[Golfbeat]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Manzella vs Mayo

 

So we don't need a very steep angle of attack to hit a nice spinning shot. Is steep easier for the average player than a bit more shallow?

[ALIF]

On 1/7/2024 at 5:27 PM, Soloman1 said:

What’s the problem with differing methods?

 

Is there a rule that only the pentatonic scale can be used in a guitar lead?

 

Is there only one way to cook BBQ?

Well, I do like my ribs wet, not dry. So for me that is the only way to cook barbecued ribs. LOL.

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

So we don't need a very steep angle of attack to hit a nice spinning shot. Is steep easier for the average player than a bit more shallow?

 

It depends on who you ask.
 

As I mentioned previously in this thread, there are plenty of advantages to a steeper angle of attack but IMO forgiveness is not necessarily one of them. If a golfer has crappy technique a 10* angle of attack becomes even more unmanageable. So to answer your question I don’t necessarily think steep is “easier” but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth learning to hit the shot and being able to execute it well is IMO a sign of solid technique. 

 

Mayo has 2 theories that are fairly debatable.
 

1. the 27-30* launch angle is necessary to be among the elite pitchers of the ball

 

2. A 10* downward angle of attack gives golfers a better chance at high quality friction compared to a shallower angle of attack 

 

I guess the first one can actually be proven and he states in the video that Jon Sinclair also made the case for it.  The second is a tough one to actually prove completely true or false. 

Edited February 5 by MPStrat

[Hawkeye77]

38 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Manzella vs Mayo

 

Kind of rude and the equivalent of panel discussion thread jacking, IMO.

 

Don't know the personal context, and seems personal to one person - feel bad for the audience.

[mstuewe]

23 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

So we don't need a very steep angle of attack to hit a nice spinning shot. Is steep easier for the average player than a bit more shallow?

I think the point was, if spin loft is the same in 2 scenarios, then the angle of attack and shaft lean is what brings the launch down to 27-29 degrees.  Otherwise you end up with a high launch pitch shot.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Kind of rude and the equivalent of panel discussion thread jacking, IMO.

 

Don't know the personal context, and seems personal to one person - feel bad for the audience.

I agree with you. The ending in particular was rough. 

There is one postive about it, though. We effectively heard the unfiltered arguments of both sides of this issue.

 

Was there too much emotion and ego involved here? Absolutely. But this is way better than the usual “everyone is brilliant” political dishonesty and the, “all good teachers agree” stuff. 
 

The way I see it, let’s get this stuff out there and talk about it. 

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

So we don't need a very steep angle of attack to hit a nice spinning shot. Is steep easier for the average player than a bit more shallow?

 

If the spin loft is 55° or so, you get right about the max spin regardless of the AoA. You could have +25° AoA if the ball was somehow suspended somewhere and if you had -30° loft… you'd get the same amount of spin at the same speeds. The spin loft doesn't care where it's pointing - it cares only about the amount. And ~55° is the peak of the spin loft "mountain."

 

That's @Brian Manzella's point. And it's an accurate one, and one with which Joe agreed.

 

Where they disagree is whether you'll be better off hitting 12° down (with 43° dynamic loft) or maybe 4° down (with maybe 51° dynamic loft).

 

Obviously if you're -12°/43°, you'll see launches around 27° or whatever, and if you're -4°/51°, you'll see launches around 35°. But the spin should be the same if all the other parameters (speed, contact location, etc.) are the same.

 

Whether one is "more forgiving" than the other… depends on a lot of other little things.

 

4 minutes ago, mstuewe said:

I think the point was, if spin loft is the same in 2 scenarios, then the angle of attack and shaft lean is what brings the launch down to 27-29 degrees.  Otherwise you end up with a high launch pitch shot.

 

That spins the same, though, and 35° isn't all that high. It's just higher than maybe 27°. 😄 

[Deadaimz]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Manzella vs Mayo

Where can I find the full video

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

Where can I find the full video

Not sure but if you do, please post here. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That's @Brian Manzella's point. And it's an accurate one, and one with which Joe agreed.

 

That's not his entire point. I posted a bit too quickly. And of course I tagged him, so he can come on here and tell you his point better than I can, but…

 

His point was also that you might improve some people trying to hit it without hitting down much at all (maybe they're trying to hit down at -1° or something), and maybe they'll start hitting it better at -5° or -6°, but his contention is that a lot of people will start getting better to a point, and then start getting worse again as they go past some number well before you get to -10° or -12°.

 

In other words…

 

-1° - crap

-3° - better

-5° - great

-7° - eh

-9° - not good

-11° - bad as -1° was for that person

 

(He's not saying everyone will have the same scale, just that he disagrees with Joe's assertion that almost everyone or the vast majority will hit it better at -10°+.)

 

And like I said, he can correct me if I've gotten that wrong.

 

Edit: Also, before anyone here makes judgments about who was a "jerk" or something in that video between Brian or Joe (or JR making funny faces 🤣), the video obviously starts in the middle, and I'd withhold further judgment until you at least saw the whole video. Brian also from what I understand didn't grab the mic or anything, he was given the mic and encouraged to ask Joe the questions that we see cut into the middle there.

 

Edited February 5 by iacas
Added Edit section

[ThinkingPlus]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's not his entire point. I posted a bit too quickly. And of course I tagged him, so he can come on here and tell you his point better than I can, but…

 

His point was also that you might improve some people trying to hit it without hitting down much at all (maybe they're trying to hit down at -1° or something), and maybe they'll start hitting it better at -5° or -6°, but his contention is that a lot of people will start getting better to a point, and then start getting worse again as they go past some number well before you get to -10° or -12°.

 

In other words…

 

-1° - crap

-3° - better

-5° - great

-7° - eh

-9° - not good

-11° - bad as -1° was for that person

 

(He's not saying everyone will have the same scale, just that he disagrees with Joe's assertion that almost everyone or the vast majority will hit it better at -10°+.)

 

And like I said, he can correct me if I've gotten that wrong.

 

Edit: Also, before anyone here makes judgments about who was a "jerk" or something in that video between Brian or Joe (or JR making funny faces 🤣), the video obviously starts in the middle, and I'd withhold further judgment until you at least saw the whole video. Brian also from what I understand didn't grab the mic or anything, he was given the mic and encouraged to ask Joe the questions that we see cut into the middle there.

 

I like JR. He agrees that all techniques have merit depending upon situation and there isn't a "one size fits all" solution.  He also has quite a few videos discussing difficult lies and how to handle them.  I really like that. If I goof a chip or pitch from a nice lie, then it's on me.  Sometimes, though, I just can't figure out what to do with the squirrely lies. He has helped in that regard.

[Hawkeye77]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's not his entire point. I posted a bit too quickly. And of course I tagged him, so he can come on here and tell you his point better than I can, but…

 

His point was also that you might improve some people trying to hit it without hitting down much at all (maybe they're trying to hit down at -1° or something), and maybe they'll start hitting it better at -5° or -6°, but his contention is that a lot of people will start getting better to a point, and then start getting worse again as they go past some number well before you get to -10° or -12°.

 

In other words…

 

-1° - crap

-3° - better

-5° - great

-7° - eh

-9° - not good

-11° - bad as -1° was for that person

 

(He's not saying everyone will have the same scale, just that he disagrees with Joe's assertion that almost everyone or the vast majority will hit it better at -10°+.)

 

And like I said, he can correct me if I've gotten that wrong.

 

Edit: Also, before anyone here makes judgments about who was a "jerk" or something in that video between Brian or Joe (or JR making funny faces 🤣), the video obviously starts in the middle, and I'd withhold further judgment until you at least saw the whole video. Brian also from what I understand didn't grab the mic or anything, he was given the mic and encouraged to ask Joe the questions that we see cut into the middle there.

 

 

Which is why I mentioned, for example, I didn't know the personal context (and obviously not the context of the entire discussion), but seemed more confrontational than was called for and . . . . I've never seen anything of Manzella's where I haven't thought he seems like a pretty nice guy and I'm guessing he is.  So a bit surprising to me and the areas of agreement/points made kind of get lost in the "volume", so to speak - certainly doesn't change my opinion of him or anyone there based one one snippet.  

 

 

Edited February 5 by Hawkeye77

[MonteScheinblum]

I’m familiar with the ideas of every member on that panel.  I know a few of them quite well.  All very smart, all with very good ideas.

 

The ones I know are good people who have a genuine interest in finding the “truth” as it is.

 

Here is the problem.  The sniping from the cheap seats on forums and social media gets old.  Everyone has their tipping point, no matter how thick your skin is.  When 1 idiot calls you a moron for saying 2+2 is 4, you laugh.  When a few dozen do it, you still laugh.  When a few hundred do it, it becomes tiresome.

 

You should see the deleted comments from my Instagram and TikTok on ideas that would be generally accepted here even by the most ardent criticizers of what I say.
 

If you throw a thimble full of water in an empty 8 oz glass, it’s barely noticeable.  If you throw that same thimble of water into the same glass that’s full to the brim, it spills over.

 

To me this video is the thimble into the full to the brim glass for both Joe and Brian.  Both very smart, both very good people.

 

 

Edited February 5 by MonteScheinblum

[Binson]

Given the same spin-loft, is there a benefit to launching sub-30 vs. 33-35?

 

If you're hitting -11.5 vs. -7.5 AoA with the same spin-loft, what makes the one that is -7.5 with 33 degrees of launch worse than the one that is -11.5 AoA with 29 degree launch?

 

 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m familiar with the ideas of every member on that panel.  I know a few of them quite well.  All very smart, all with very good ideas.

 

The ones I know are good people who have a genuine interest in finding the “truth” as it is.

 

Here is the problem.  The sniping from the cheap seats on forums and social media gets old.  Everyone has their tipping point, no matter how thick your skin is.  When 1 idiot calls you a moron for saying 2+2 is 4, you laugh.  When a few dozen do it, you still laugh.  When a few hundred do it, it becomes tiresome.

 

You should see the deleted comments from my Instagram and TikTok on ideas that would be generally accepted here even by the most ardent criticizers of what I say.
 

If you throw a thimble full of water in an empty 8 oz glass, it’s barely noticeable.  If you throw that same thimble of water into the same glass that’s full to the brim, it spills over.

 

To me this video is the thimble into the full to the brim glass for both Joe and Brian.  Both very smart, both very good people.

 

"Some of my friends want the new law/bill/roadway/stadium/whatever. Some of my friends are opposed to it. Me? I support my friends."

 

😄 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Binson said:

Given the same spin-loft, is there a benefit to launching sub-30 vs. 33-35?

 

If you're hitting -11.5 vs. -7.5 AoA with the same spin-loft, what makes the one that is -7.5 with 33 degrees of launch worse than the one that is -11.5 AoA with 29 degree launch?

 

Depends on the shot, the person hitting it, the conditions, etc.

 

Joe's contention is that more people will hit the -11.5° one more solid, Brian thinks the -7.5° is going to be hit more solid.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Binson said:

Given the same spin-loft, is there a benefit to launching sub-30 vs. 33-35?

 

If you're hitting -11.5 vs. -7.5 AoA with the same spin-loft, what makes the one that is -7.5 with 33 degrees of launch worse than the one that is -11.5 AoA with 29 degree launch?

 

 

According to what Mayo and apparently Jon Sinclair believe, accuracy is lost with the higher launching of the two. People can share their opinions but I don’t think the answer to this question agreed upon among short game gurus. I could be wrong. 

[The Mad Bomber]

9 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

Where can I find the full video

There's a free sign up through Short Game Chef. I did it and it's worth a watch.

 

I'm sad that I'm so late to the party on this one, I admittedly don't spend a lot of time in the WRX Academy section. After watching that video, I'm convinced that Mayo is a bit of a one trick pony. He's derived his 10º+ down AoA based solely off the spin loft calculation of some 10 year old data of launch angle and dynamic loft in the D-Plane. I was watching Hovland hit green side shots with him and you immediately notice a couple things. 1 - yeah, Hovland is really steep. 2 - He's got the face WAY open, which is the old way to prevent laying the sod over it at that AoA. I couldn't ever imagine advocating this for anyone that was struggling. Even though Hovland was poor by tour standards, his sense of the bottom of the arc is still light years better that an average am.

One of the biggest contentions that came out of the seminar is that if you're coming in at -2º with a little bit of bounce exposed and you hit an inch or even more behind the ball, you're somewhat okay. A clean strike flies and produces spin and a drop-kick doesn't fly as far but it also spins less and will run out. If you're 10º+ down, it doesn't matter how much bounce you have, if you hit it 3/4" behind the ball, you're still chipping - that's just a fact. I know Mayo has had some success with elite players, but I think his approach for the masses is flat out quackery. I've been down both roads and I say "quackery" because I've never seen someone that was struggling around the greens suddenly get better contact by using a technique that requires MORE precision than shallow w/bounce approach.

Edited February 6 by The Mad Bomber
sp

[GolfTurkey]

Sheesh, by the tone of that video, we almost witnessed an actual death match

[Deadaimz]

I love Mayos teaching of the short game. I'm a hack and pitching and chipping has been my biggest struggle. I subscribed to his patreon and finally broke 80 using his method. For me using the shallow method resulted in me catching them thin and subsequently chunking. I'm much more consistent using ball back ball first technique and there is still much more room for improvement. 

[Deadaimz]

@The Mad Bomber where do you sign up for the free video? I couldn't find it on the site. 

 

NVM I found the link on his instagram site.

Edited February 6 by Deadaimz

[CardsChamps11]

Does Joe Mayo advocate for this same method for all shots around the green? There are so many shots you are forced to hit around the green and it seems like there is an argument over one of them

[Santiago Golf]

45 minutes ago, CardsChamps11 said:

Does Joe Mayo advocate for this same method for all shots around the green? There are so many shots you are forced to hit around the green and it seems like there is an argument over one of them

 

In reality though, most golfers (recreational players who don't practice) should have 1 to 2 shots in their arsenal around the green. I standard pitch shot and higher lofted shot. If they have to hit it low, putt it (hybrid/fairway wood if wet/sticky grass). Having more shots doesn't make it any easier. The reward zone for a PGA/LPGA Tour player is 8 feet (if their shots ends up at 9 feet versus 25 feet, there is no statistical decrease). The reward zone for a good recreational player (single diget) is 4 feet. No am practices enough to hit shots inside 4 feet more than once a round where they must elevate the golf ball. 

 

Just learn to hit it solid (Ball then ground) with mid launch and learn to control distance with swing length. You start losing less shots around the green. Its incredibility difficult for recreational players to gain shots around the green a long period of time 

[leezer99]

22 hours ago, The Mad Bomber said:

There's a free sign up through Short Game Chef. I did it and it's worth a watch.

 

I'm sad that I'm so late to the party on this one, I admittedly don't spend a lot of time in the WRX Academy section. After watching that video, I'm convinced that Mayo is a bit of a one trick pony. He's derived his 10º+ down AoA based solely off the spin loft calculation of some 10 year old data of launch angle and dynamic loft in the D-Plane. I was watching Hovland hit green side shots with him and you immediately notice a couple things. 1 - yeah, Hovland is really steep. 2 - He's got the face WAY open, which is the old way to prevent laying the sod over it at that AoA. I couldn't ever imagine advocating this for anyone that was struggling. Even though Hovland was poor by tour standards, his sense of the bottom of the arc is still light years better that an average am.

One of the biggest contentions that came out of the seminar is that if you're coming in at -2º with a little bit of bounce exposed and you hit an inch or even more behind the ball, you're somewhat okay. A clean strike flies and produces spin and a drop-kick doesn't fly as far but it also spins less and will run out. If you're 10º+ down, it doesn't matter how much bounce you have, if you hit it 3/4" behind the ball, you're still chipping - that's just a fact. I know Mayo has had some success with elite players, but I think his approach for the masses is flat out quackery. I've been down both roads and I say "quackery" because I've never seen someone that was struggling around the greens suddenly get better contact by using a technique that requires MORE precision than shallow w/bounce approach.

 

It asked me for a credit card even though the cost was $0.00. Now I'm not a paranoid tinfoil wearing hat type of guy but there's no need for my CC to be associated with another site that will get hacked in six months. 

[virtuoso]

Please, please everyone, let’s put the machines away. Let’s take our 20 yard shot, put the handle just a smidge forward, the face a smidge open, and just brush the grass under the ball with the sole….and be done with it.

[MPStrat]

Mayo making his case
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3EG_ClPoFi/?igsh=MXFqZjlkbGhxZ2oyZw==

[Deadaimz]

Mayos case is solid

[Zitlow]

It's a sign of mental weakness when someone becomes agitated with people who disagree with their ideas. When I see it here it just tells me they aren't so secure in their belief system. 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

It's a sign of mental weakness when someone becomes agitated with people who disagree with their ideas. When I see it here it just tells me they aren't so secure in their belief system. 

Well………..I agree that there is no shortage of belief systems here at Golfwrx, but I would disagree that there is a shortage of security in said systems. People seem entirely too secure…..same types of quips and platitudes despite numerous examples of  evidence to the contrary.