Joe Mayo vs Shortgamechef DEATH MATCH (not really, I'm click baiting)

[rthrbgolfing]

I have alos been following this but my problem is i do not know which question he is responding to with this. Is there another video that says do not hit down or just common day instruction? Also, with the head moving forward and down, aren't you just moving low point in front of the ball?

[jonsnow]

I may have missed it but can someone explain the concept of "spin loft"? I keep reading it but don't understand it.

[Santiago Golf]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:58 AM, RichieHunt said:

I agree with Joe on the subject.  I know that Joe is basing a lot of this off his work with one of the greatest short game players in the past 15 years in Brian Gay.  Brian had a much steeper AoA and higher Spin Loft than originally though.  I also know that he's based it off what many other great short game players are doing with their spin loft as well.

I also remember going to a Kelvin Miyahira clinic and being taught out of this (moving the head forward and creating a steeper AoA).  As much as I respect Kelvin's knowledge, at the time he was into the shallow bounce technique.  I was using more of the technique that Viktor is using (unwittingly) and my short game was really good and I hardly ever practiced it.

 

I remember Kelvin remarking how good my short game was on those shots and I was 'making the sound' that good short game players on Tour make, but he wanted me to get a little less grass.  I then changed to the shallow bounce technique and quite frankly my short game hasn't been nearly as good.  

 

So I'm going back to my old technique, now I just have to remember how to get back to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Side topic, I'd love to hear more about your lessons with Kelvin

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

I may have missed it but can someone explain the concept of "spin loft"? I keep reading it but don't understand it.

Spin Loft is one of two metrics responsible for how much spin is imparted to the golf ball. The other element is clubhead speed. The formula is:

 

Spin Loft = Dynamic Loft minus Angle of Attack

 

For example, with a 60 deg wedge, if you deliver 45º of Dynamic Loft (with 15º forward shaft lean), and you're hitting down on it with an AoA of -10º, doing the math would be 45 - (-10) for a spin loft of 55º... which is about the ideal spin loft for max spin. Any higher spin loft and ball may slide up face instead of grabbing it, any lower spin loft and you're adding ball speed instead of maxing out spin.

 

Here are the kind of numbers Joe Mayo likes (from his IG):

 

More: https://blog.trackmangolf.com/spin-loft/ (TrackMan's site appears to be down right now)

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[GolfTurkey]

Regarding variability in spin rates, I wonder:

 

1. How much is normal in the short game vs the long game? We're used to seeing tables of numbers and standard deviations for the long game, but not the short game.

 

2. Whether some of it is Trackman battling with short shots, the same way that radar struggles indoors and requires metallic dots or RCT balls. Crane hit two high shots in the high shot video that looked very similar to the naked eye. TM had virtually the identical spin loft for the two shots (60.2 vs 60.9) and yet one spun at 4900 and the other at 2500. There was also a video where TM couldn't pick up the AoA at all for whatever reason.

Edited September 21, 2023 by GolfTurkey

[doctor220]

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Regarding variability in spin rates, I wonder:

 

1. How much is normal in the short game vs the long game? We're used to seeing tables of numbers and standard deviations for the long game, but not the short game.

 

2. Whether some of it is Trackman battling with short shots, the same way that radar struggles indoors and requires metallic dots or RCT balls. Crane hit two high shots in the high shot video that looked very similar to the naked eye. TM had virtually the identical spin loft for the two shots (60.2 vs 60.9) and yet one spun at 4900 and the other at 2500. There was also a video where TM couldn't pick up the AoA at all for whatever reason.

Sometimes TM will double or halve the spin, would guess that’s the issue. Would be weird/impossible for shot to spin literally half as much  if contact and spin loft are similar 

[Deadaimz]

7 hours ago, MPStrat said:

As long as we can acknowledge that the two methods are different, we can discuss the pros and cons and our own preferences. I’m glad that has been accepted.

 

Joe has been adamant that “his shot” must be a strength in the arsenal to be among the elite around the greens on tour.

 

Truth is, I like both depending on the situation. If I’m trying to stick a pitch shot to a back pin, I’m not hitting a high soft floater.  There are many instances when I would, though.
 

Where some might disagree is that I think you can be great at both shots and suck terribly at both shots. Neither method works well without good technique and practice. I think once good technique is established less practice is needed to remain serviceable.

 

I also think a beginner who is terrible around the greens should learn Joe’s shot first. It think there are elements that could help their full swing as well, though they should know there are differences.

 

I think your criticism of Crane’s variability in spin is a fair one. This could also be called a variability in friction. Which could also be called variability in contact. Variability in friction and spin due to the always unavoidable human error is one of the cons in Joe’s techinique. Neither technique is superior in all areas.
 

.

I can't imagine there not being any variability in any shot your doing in golf. It does not exist imo. Only iron Byron comes close.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Deadaimz

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Sometimes TM will double or halve the spin, would guess that’s the issue. 

Definitely could be. But contact was definitely the issue on some of them.

 

If we are strictly talking about spin, high quality friction is the biggest factor. Whichever technique or trackman numbers result in high quality friction are going to put a lot of spin on the ball. You can spin it a ton with both methods. 
 

I think Joe would say his method gives the golfer the best chance at great contact and therefore high quality friction. I think short game chef would say his method is more forgiving if contact is poor. I would probably agree with both. 
 

Being somewhere in between the two, like Tiger was with Como is where you get the worst of both worlds 😂 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Deadaimz said:

I can't imagine there being any variability in any shot you’re doing in golf. It does not exist imo.

 

Please explain

[Deadaimz]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

Please explain

Humans are human and you cannot make the same stroke over and over even pros are not immune. They do way better than us mortals but they are too mortals and making the same numbers on tm repedealty is unlikely.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Deadaimz
🍺

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Deadaimz said:

Humans are human and you cannot make the same stroke over amd over even pros as by numbers they are not immune. They do way better than uns mortals but hey are too mortals and making the same numbers on tm is unlikely.

Ok yes I agree with everything you just said. Your first post said you can’t imagine there being any variability in any shot in golf 😂 

 

[Deadaimz]

Just now, MPStrat said:

Ok yes I agree with everything you just said. Your first post said you can’t imagine there being any variability in any shot in golf 😂 

 

I can't make the same stroke putting consistently so I'd imagine pitching chipping there is even more variability between strokes.  I'd imagine there would be just as much variability with use the bounce method as there would be with shaft lean strike down aoa method. I will say I prefer shaft lean negative aoa method than the former. It works way better for me and feel I can better my game.

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

I can't make the same stroke putting consistently so I'd imagine pitching chipping there is even more variability between strokes.  I'd imagine there would be just as much variability with use the bounce method as there would be with shaft lean strike down aoa method. I will say I prefer shaft lean negative aoa method than the former. It works way better for me and feel I can better my game.

The variability in motion using shallow vs steep will be similar. The resultant shot might not be.
 

Short game chef would argue that his method is superior because of that. I would disagree that it’s superior overall, but I think that’s one area it probably wins. That doesn’t make it better overall IMO 

[umamimami]

On The Mark Podcast with Parker McLachlin (Shortgamechef)

 

at 35:06 on Spotify

 

Parker is asked about posture stuff and listen to his reply.

 

It’s all situational folks.

 

I think we’d all benefit from practicing and honing a library of shots rather than chasing specific numbers. Learn to hit down and when it’s appropriate. Learn to be shallow and when it’s appropriate.

 

It’s not the shot that you want to hit, it’s the shot that you have  that best fits the lie and the target and the lay of the land. 
 

[baudi]

18 hours ago, jonsnow said:

You carry a 72 degree wedge? Did it come with a face mask?

OT

I play a lot of short par 3.  There are many situations for the types of shots I must to/want to/ learn to  own.  

For bigger courses I carry 53 and 58 MG as seen in the avatar. This head is the complete opposite killed edge, short flange high bounce.

Learning to play the 72 reminded of learning to strike a  #1 iron I used to have. It is very, very tough. It took me half a year to get used. 

My regular chipping improved to the point that I am pretty confident with a 64 in the regular course. 

If Anyone is in for a challenge; the target below is 6 yards away on a crown with a severe slope; distance to bush 2 feet, 4 ft high. Goal is to leave the ball within 1 yd.

For this spot I use a 68.

 

[doctor220]

7 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

I can't make the same stroke putting consistently so I'd imagine pitching chipping there is even more variability between strokes.  I'd imagine there would be just as much variability with use the bounce method as there would be with shaft lean strike down aoa method. I will say I prefer shaft lean negative aoa method than the former. It works way better for me and feel I can better my game.

It doesn’t have to be the same exact stroke but it will be very similar. The face and path numbers of good golfers are pretty consistent. The spin being literally halved between shots is a massive massive difference that doesn’t really happen to elite golfers attempting to hit the same shot

Edited September 22, 2023 by doctor220

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

It doesn’t have to be the same exact stroke but it will be very similar. The face and path numbers of good golfers are pretty consistent. The spin being literally halved between shots is a massive massive difference that doesn’t really happen to elite golfers attempting to hit the same shot

Might be a bit of a side story to this thread or are we doomed from the beginning spin wise? I have no idea. I think we all can relate on the chipping green, hitting comparable shots, when you think contact was similar (definitely not exactly the same obviously) but one hops and stops while the other releases a few feet past. Always thought I caught one low or toe side or grass between the ball and face or wettish - or is it just that sometimes it just doesn't grab the face as much? and spins half, and runs off... if that's the case, good luck... guessing they're elite because they deliver the club far more consistently than the weekend warrior, it doesn't just 'don't grab as much from time to time'

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, doctor220 said:

It doesn’t have to be the same exact stroke but it will be very similar. The face and path numbers of good golfers are pretty consistent. The spin being literally halved between shots is a massive massive difference that doesn’t really happen to elite golfers attempting to hit the same shot

This is true 

[MPStrat]

49 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Might be a bit of a side story to this thread or are we doomed from the beginning spin wise? 

 

You could also ask “should amateurs be using super spinny shots of any kind around the green”? I think the answer is it depends. SGC certainly teaches super spinny shots and I think there’s more risk for variability in friction with the shallow method. This is one of the reasons Joe is teaching what he does. 

 

For the amateur golfer, depending on skill level, there are going to be precision issues with both methods. It’s still very possible for golfers to have huge variations in spin and chunk and blade a pitch with the shallow method. But I’d still stay it’s a little more forgiving. 
 

I don’t think that’s reason enough to avoid learning and practicing what Joe is teaching. Among other benefits, at the end of the day it’s a fun shot to have. 

[GungHoGolf]

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cxew1AsuQrZ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[GolfTurkey]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgqIBDvt31/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

This helps to put the height into perspective. On that 16.7 yard chip launched at 27.8 degrees by a PGA Tour player, if Rory was standing in the way at the shot's apex, it would have cleared his head by over a foot.

[Deadaimz]

He just posted Marcus Allen doing the low launch dart.

[doctor220]

12 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgqIBDvt31/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

This helps to put the height into perspective. On that 16.7 yard chip launched at 27.8 degrees by a PGA Tour player, if Rory was standing in the way at the shot's apex, it would have cleared his head by over a foot.

I mean it’s a 16 yard shot what are people talking about, if you’re 16 yards away and having to hit it high over something that isn’t common like the greenside bush picture above. 

[Bob M]

13 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgqIBDvt31/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

This helps to put the height into perspective. On that 16.7 yard chip launched at 27.8 degrees by a PGA Tour player, if Rory was standing in the way at the shot's apex, it would have cleared his head by over a foot.

 

The other thing which jumped out at me is the low point...7.7" ahead of the ball. Padraig Harrington really emphasizes getting the divot (low point) well ahead of the ball in his chipping video. 

[GungHoGolf]

12 minutes ago, Bob M said:

 

The other thing which jumped out at me is the low point...7.7" ahead of the ball. Padraig Harrington really emphasizes getting the divot (low point) well ahead of the ball in his chipping video. 

 

AoA is roughly equal to 1.1-1.2X your low point in inches, which is a crude way of measuring your AoA without a launch monitor when hitting off grass and taking divots.

 

The low point is at the center of your divot, so if you mark your ball position with a tee to the side, then measure to the center of your divot in inches and multiply by 1.1, you’ll be close to your AoA.

[mizunotpz]

I think different players have talent for different techniques. I had the yips for a few seasons after being a good chip and pitch player since I was a kid and an elite junior amateur, but having no idea what I was doing. So it was almost like having to learn how to walk again. So I digged deep thinking Im gonna get better than I was before the yips. Took some time to figure out how steep or how shallow I should be. But I practised and practised (500-600 shots per week) and watched and studied and got better and better. But for me I found out that I could pick from them all: Ridyard, Utley, Dan Grieve, Faxon, Cowen. In the end it was 3 things that helped me get out of the mess and it was a Monte video were he said keep the lower body still (my knees tried to help the ball forward, very bad idea) and Raflewski in a TXG video saying "dont be afraid of the ground". This really helped explain to me why I struggled on the course (cause in practise I was often doing well). Third thing was grip pressure, so thats the only thing I still focus on. But 50-50 setup for pitch, ball in the middle for standard shots, then I adjust one ball width back or forward in the stance depending on what launch I need and set the wrists early going back. I do have shaft lean at impact, but tried to get rid off it but couldnt (unless for flop shots) but when I studied the sole off my wedge I could clearly see I was using the back part of the sole/bounce so I just stopped trying to get the shaft vertical. Ive always liked the lower pitch shot with ball contact lower on the face anyway. That feels at home. So to summarize, its the old "find out what works best for you" that helped me the most in the end AND of course sticking to one method and not listen to every youtube chip instruction video. Some of those "experts" might not be better than you. And most of it is so basic and doesnt adress real issues like Monte or Dan Grieve, two great instructors who arent afraid of discussing the complicated stuff.

[glk]

best info I've found in one spot is in this 8 year old video - can see his youtube/instagram pages for more info or purhase some of his videos.

 

 

[Doodlebug87]

So I was curious to try this and had some good success. Only using a skytrak so unsure on AoA, but quite easily managed circa 20 yard carry, sub 30 launch and over 5000 rpm with a 60 degree. What's more, a slightly longer backswing and more aggressive turn through the ball and it's possible to maintain the characteristics out to about 40-50 yards. It really feels similar to a punch or stinger. My only real thoughts were head down and forward during takeaway, turn hard through the ball. It will take some confidence pulling it off during a round as the margin for error is definitely smaller than using the bounce..... good to have more shots in the kit bag for different situations

[hackerboy]

Having been a member of GolfWRX for 16 years this November, and read many many many forum topics (from equipment to instruction etc), I have to say this may be my favorite thread.  There are obviously dozens of extraordinary threads on all phases of the game.  But the expression of different techniques, theories, trackman correlation, real success of some golfers, etc, combined with the fact that any of us could potentially hit this shot (iow, don’t need 120mph clubhead speed or being under 65 yrs of age) make this special.  The low spinner is a wonderful shot on so many levels, and I believe it improves all aspects of one’s game (technique, Trackman concepts/correlations, ball flight laws etc). Thanks to all contributors. 

[tacklingdummy]

My take on how Hovland chips with the shaft leaning forward and steeper AoA is that he is exposing the bounce.  Hovland opens the clubface enough to increase/incorporate the bounce even though he has quite a bit of shaft lean that over leans the bounce degrees on the wedge and has a steeper AoA. Also, of course opening the face increases the spin loft. Both methods from Mayo and McLachlin are good. It is just player preference on what method works for them.