Why is late wrist set a power leak?

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Neither did the guy on the right.

LOL

[tthomasgolfer605]

3 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Bryson used to be kind of laid off if I remember correctly, when he was into the “one plane” shaft angle the entire swing idea. Think it was working with  Como when he started going across the line. The across the line helps him hit a draw on everything. He also intentionally tries to hit it on the toe for gear effect.

He was always across the line. He purposely didn't let his wrists hinge fully in his old swing  vs. letting them hinge late like he does now. He went from short of parallel to parallel which makes it look more across.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Neither did the guy on the right.

Completely different conversation. Scottish lag is starting the handle of the club before the clubhead. I don’t think the guy on the right is a cautionary tale of using a shift to trigger momentum before the club moves. An early trigger happens before the hands even take the club away. 

[Valtiel]

16 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is excellent work and whether or not you need more and/or early depends on what happens after this.  I get clients regularly that fit one the following categories.

 

1.  At this point in the swing, the left arm and shaft is a straight line.

2.  In the Bryson Scottie range and get severe arm over run and/or severe float load.

3.  Having the appearance of a 60/70 angle here with lead wrist in severe extension.

 

1 and 3 are just not acceptable to play their best golf and quite literally need the opposite feel to get in range of those group.

 

#2 needs to gravitate toward the bottom of the group.

Yeah if there is any pattern i've noticed around the forums it's the same as what you're stating here; too little is too common. I blame the combo of it just being a difficult thing to do correctly with the fact that so many instructors AND announcers have used the terrible phrase "take the wrists out of the equation" when referring to pros hitting really good "control" shots. Also Steve Stricker who announcers have used to ruin a generation of golfers. 😆

Surprise surprise, he'd fit right in the middle of the chart:


 

3 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Bryson used to be kind of laid off if I remember correctly, when he was into the “one plane” shaft angle the entire swing idea. Think it was working with  Como when he started going across the line. The across the line helps him hit a draw on everything. He also intentionally tries to hit it on the toe for gear effect.

Yeah I was looking at his 2016-2018 swing the other day, definitely more laid off. Good call on the toe shots btw, i'm pretty sure it was that evolution of his driving approach that created so much friction with Cobra.

[MPStrat]

Stenson is always a good visual for shifting before the club moves because he is one of the most deliberate. Some tour players are more subtle. A shift before the club moves isn’t Scottish lag. That’s a misunderstanding of cause and effect

 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah if there is any pattern i've noticed around the forums it's the same as what you're stating here; too little is too common. I blame the combo of it just being a difficult thing to do correctly with the fact that so many instructors AND announcers have used the terrible phrase "take the wrists out of the equation" when referring to pros hitting really good "control" shots. Also Steve Stricker who announcers have used to ruin a generation of golfers. 😆

Surprise surprise, he'd fit right in the middle of the chart:


 

Yeah I was looking at his 2016-2018 swing the other day, definitely more laid off. Good call on the toe shots btw, i'm pretty sure it was that evolution of his driving approach that created so much friction with Cobra.

“Taking your wrists and hands out if the swing is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard”……Tiger Woods.

 

100% on Stricker.  I’d say between 5-10 times a year someone comes in with either the shanks, or “powerless” swing and here is the exact conversation.  Shanks from a huge float load leading to narrow and extended lead wrist.  Powerless from properly unloading a “no hinge” swing.

 

I say the impetus is lack of hinge is at left arm parallel, they have a severe obtuse angle at p3 and sometimes a straight line.

 

Their response…..”Yes, I’m trying to take the hinge out so I can be consistent like Steve Stricker.”

 

I show them a side by side and they throw up.  “Why did I do this.”

 

The shakers stop shanking when they hinge earlier and the powerless guys gain 10+% chs in a few minutes.

[Shilgy]

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Stenson is always a good visual for shifting before the club moves because he is one of the most deliberate. Some tour players are more subtle. A shift before the club moves isn’t Scottish lag. That’s a misunderstanding of cause and effect

 

 

 

 

If it’s my post of the hickory player also starting with a weight shift ala Hogan you’re referring to here you missed the point.

 

Hey! Or perhaps I did.  
 

Would you agree you could have the one piece takeaway no wrist set swing AND the weight shift first?  My understanding is what is being discussed is the degree of wrist set and which moves first….clubhead or hands back.  I would argue that stills…or even most videos… are virtually impossible to tell which started first….unless of course it’s the extreme of the hickory player pick of a century ago.

 

So throwing the idea of Hogan weight shift first is not germane to the discussion…

 

Or I’m way off base.  Let me know guys.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 Would you agree you could have the one piece takeaway no wrist set swing AND the weight shift first? 

 

So throwing the idea of Hogan weight shift first is not germane to the discussion…

 

Or I’m way off base.  Let me know guys.

The discussion on the last page was the claim that someone made that the momentum of the hands and arms moving causes the shift to the trail side

 

What I was showing is that it’s the opposite. The shift to the trail side helps create the momentum to take away the club.

[BombinJim]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Sure, i'll explain how I think this happens first and then tie that in to your swing from back in July that we spoke about. This will contain a few moving parts so bear with me. 

The general idea is that the wrists need to set at *some* point in the swing, and the issue comes when it's either done incorrectly or involuntarily, almost always mixed with a hand/arm path issue (more on that below). "Incorrectly" is normally via excessive or exclusive extension/flexion, often early in the backswing, and this is the move that gets the club sucked back inside and behind the hands. An involuntary setting of the wrists can then happen under the weight of the club at the top of the backswing, because with excessive extension/flexion (lateral folding of the wrists) often comes a complete lack of upward hinging (radial deviation, something that gets somewhat forced at the top of the backswing. When this happens, particularly when there are club path issues, that forced wrist setting sends the club in a bad direction and you see the common pattern of excessive cupping of the lead wrist and loss of extension in the trail wrist, two moves that send the club across the line. Unfortunately at that point the very thing you need to get the club BACK on plane correctly is a rewind/reassembly of what broke down with the wrists in the first place, which is functionally impossible given the small amount of time available in transition to do so. I'm sure someone out there does something similar, but i've never seen it personally. 

Now in your case it's a bit different because based on your swing from August/September you had a couple improper compensations and your follow up (which I missed) contained a good first attempt at the wrist preset drills designed to help alleviate this, but I can see where you're still struggling and i'll follow up on that thread shortly. 👍

Many thanks for the explanation. I’ve been thinking about the vertical hinge and how I need to do that portion of the wrist set earlier. I almost think one needs to do that earlier than they think so they can oppose the force of the club in the opposite direction before the arms reach the top, otherwise the forced over hinge will happen. Anyway, looking forward to your follow-up.

[Streetscape]

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Yep, he's a little later than most. I'm just saying that it's detrimental to balance and timing to manipulate the club by starting the clubhead first. 

  

One piece takeaway.

 

 

 

 

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the first few frames of this video specifically show him moving the clubhead (Well technically he shifts first, but I digress) before anything else.

[Shilgy]

16 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The discussion on the last page was the claim that someone made that the momentum of the hands and arms moving causes the shift to the trail side

 

What I was showing is that it’s the opposite. The shift to the trail side helps create the momentum to take away the club.

It can’t be both? Depending on the player and their individual swing characteristics?

[virtuoso]

 

[MPStrat]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It can’t be both? Depending on the player and their individual swing characteristics?

Well it can be whatever it is. It’s possible to lack dynamics in the takeaway and move the clubhead first. It’s possible to use a shift to help create momentum . 
 

Someone for example like @getitdaily doesn’t lack those dynamics and Intuitively probably would never make a golf swing standing flat footed and actually move the clubhead first. However, many amateurs lack these dynamics and need to learn how to properly create momentum in the takeaway. 

[EagleAteBirdie]

A late wrist set is fine as long as you are skilled and strong enough to control the change of direction in the transition.   Some amateurs set late, only for the club to bounce at the top, forcing an early release.  The remainder of their downswing is the body fighting to catch up with the club. 

[MPStrat]

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Drew Cooper did a great video using swing catalyst data on how the force of movements of the club, hands and arms creates the shift.  I couldn’t find the link.

I asked Drew about this. He said: “I definitely don’t have a video like that. Maybe something was misunderstood or I might have worded something poorly.”

Edited November 8, 2023 by MPStrat

[getitdaily]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It can’t be both? Depending on the player and their individual swing characteristics?

 

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Well it can be whatever it is. It’s possible to lack dynamics in the takeaway and move the clubhead first. It’s possible to use a shift to help create momentum . 
 

Someone for example like @getitdaily doesn’t lack those dynamics and Intuitively probably would never make a golf swing standing flat footed and actually move the clubhead first. However, many amateurs lack these dynamics and need to learn how to properly create momentum in the takeaway. 

I believe it can and SHOULD be both. 

 

I think what's getting lost is that the moves aren't mutually exclusive. One can shift right and start the momentum while also starring to set the club up with proper wrist action. 

 

If you just shifted right and used momentum then you drag the handle. If you just move the club back with the wrist set then you get too narrow.

 

It's a combination of both. To me, the varying degrees of feel of which one dominates goes back to rear post vs center post vs front post players.

 

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

 

I believe it can and SHOULD be both. 

 

I think what's getting lost is that the moves aren't mutually exclusive. One can shift right and start the momentum while also starring to set the club up with proper wrist action. 

 

If you just shifted right and used momentum then you drag the handle. If you just move the club back with the wrist set then you get too narrow.

 

It's a combination of both. To me, the varying degrees of feel of which one dominates goes back to rear post vs center post vs front post players.

 

That I agree with.

 

In Manuel de la Torre teaching it’s like a column of soldiers marching.  The leader is in front(the hands) and starts the column marching.  But watching them he isn’t “first” they move together.

 

In this case a player might need or desire the feel of the hands moving or he may need or desire to feel the slight weight shift.  Either way they need to move together.

 

Either one will give poor results if actually done “first” without the other.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

 

I believe it can and SHOULD be both.

 

As always feels are feels. 

 I’m speaking in relation to the conversation of what creates the momentum and what moves first. The shift is what creates the momentum to take the club away, and the other side argues that forces of the hands and arms muscles taking the club away before a shift is what creates the shift. Two clearly different views. 

 

As I’ve said, I give a thumbs up to the feels you’re using knowing that you aren’t missing the dynamics of the shift. 

[Zitlow]

It might be subtle for some but the pressure shifts to the right foot to maintain balance as the hands and arms swing the club back. Others forward press left and rebound right which creates momentum. 

 

 

Tiger isn't vertical hinging, rolling and horizontal hinging as the first move off the ball like I've seen promoted here. 

 

As you turn the left arm internally rotates from the upper arm down, you don't have to think about it or make it happen. As the right arm folds radial deviation and dorsal flexion happen opening the blade on plane and cocking the hands. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Zitlow

[virtuoso]

Movement should originate at the center of gravity......unless you're sitting down.

[MPStrat]

23 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Movement should originate at the center of gravity......unless you're sitting down.

And I’m all for using feels that run counter to this to help promote better sequencing. 
 

But that doesn’t make it correct to say that “the takeaway should be clubhead first” or “the movement of the hand and arm muscles are what initiates the swing and/or create the shift” 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

And I’m all for using feels that run counter to this to help promote better sequencing. 
 

But that doesn’t make it correct to say that “the takeaway should be clubhead first” or “the movement of the hand and arm muscles are what initiates the swing and/or create the shift” 

The mass/muscles close to the center of gravity may only move an inch while the club head is moved 2 feet, but nevertheless. I can't think of any athletic movement that wouldn't be ignited close to the center of mass....at least if the entire body is involved, ignition at the center of mass would make sense.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

That I agree with.

 

In Manuel de la Torre teaching it’s like a column of soldiers marching.  The leader is in front(the hands) and starts the column marching.  But watching them he isn’t “first” they move together.

 

In this case a player might need or desire the feel of the hands moving or he may need or desire to feel the slight weight shift.  Either way they need to move together.

 

Either one will give poor results if actually done “first” without the other.

This is correct.  These movements aren’t mutually exclusive.  As I said before there are two discussions.  What actually happens and what you need to feel.  It’s been measured, the club head accelerates first in most good/elite backswings.  This is the same discussion as what happens on the downswing.  The lower body leads the downswing.  By .02 seconds.  It’s automatic, you can’t not do that.  However, intentionally leading with the lower body and intentionally not moving the hands and arms because they come later is why the overwhelming majority of golfers have poor sequences.  The human brain can’t actively discern .02 seconds.  If you try and actively move the club head first in the takeaway and not shift pressure to trail foot, that would look even more hideous than the poorly sequenced downswing. The backswing sequence is opposite to downswing sequence. As I said earlier, Drew Cooper’s video is very good on this subject.  
 

Way more golfers move the club head very late than vice versa.
 

During Covid I probably made thousands of swings on my pressure mat with my hadkmotion on.  I have had hundreds of golfers do the same.  What actually happens and what you think and what you see on video and with the naked eye are very different.  
 

When you initiate movement of the club head, the shift happens dynamically……with one caveat.  It’s not the contrived massive hinge you see a few golfers do.  
 

It’s EXTREMELY difficult to not shift the center of mass to the trail side first move when the club head and hands move.  You almost have to try and  not do it on purpose.  There’s a reason the hands get outside the trail hip quickly.  However, you can easily shift the bodies center of mass and have the wrists actually unhinge.  You see some long drivers do that.  
 

If you put on a hack motion and put the pressure mat/plate display in front of you, you’d find pretty quickly the moves you have to do to get the club head moving without the body shifting feels and looks horrible.
 

 

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

As I said before there are two discussions.  What actually happens and what you need to feel.  

 
Yeo it’s your feel. No problem with your feel.

 

Drew Cooper has never made a video saying the clubhead starts first or that the clubhead initiates the shift. He literally said so himself, to me. His words “I definitely don’t have a video like that” 
 

I am in awe that the “its impossible to initiate the downswing with the hands” internet taking point is now being used for the takeaway 😂 god help us

 

Something has to move the clubhead, the clubhead won’t move on its own. It’s possible to initiate the backswing with a lower body trigger/shift or to initiate the backswing with hand and arm muscles while standing flat footed. 

 

This is why there are many videos on AMG and Kwon’s channel covering step drills. To do step drills properly, you wouldn’t initiate the takeaway by starting the clubhead in the backswing first. One of the main purposes of step drills to teach amateurs what it feels like to use momentum to take the club away instead of a static clubhead first takeaway.

For many ams this doesn’t come natural and won’t just happen. It is like the rubbing your belly and patting your head thing. 

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When you initiate movement of the club head, the shift happens dynamically…

Can you expand on this? Is there a video, detailed description, or “feels” for this? Basically, if players are coming from a one piece takeaway or turn everything from the sternum background, what initiates the movement of the club head to help set the wrists early enough/correctly. 

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question or has been addressed elsewhere. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Can you expand on this? Is there a video, detailed description, or “feels” for this? Basically, if players are coming from a one piece takeaway or turn everything from the sternum background, what initiates the movement of the club head to help set the wrists early enough/correctly. 

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question or has been addressed elsewhere. 

Not a dumb question.  If it was easy, everyone would have a good takeaway and a very small percentage of golfers have one.  The short answer is I have a lot of videos on my channel about this, but you have to address the issue you have. The one piece takeaway, in and of itself, is not inherently bad.  The problem is a large percentage of golfers misinterpret it and do it wrong.  Rotating the hips early, setting hinge late, sucking arms inside, etc.  Here is a video I made which is a feel that nothing moves but the wrists to start, but as you can see when I demonstrate, I shift and turn plenty,.  I posted it earlier in the thread. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=NjNoeDNvazJlcHFu

 

[ac6]

On 10/27/2023 at 7:48 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Well said….and another big issue….late wrist set often leads to arm over run….and good luck sequencing with that.  Tom Kim can do it, most can’t.

 

Tom Kim can definitely sequence it, but could he be getting more power out of his swing if he didn't set late and then release early? He isn't a long hitter by Tour standards. 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, ac6 said:

 

Tom Kim can definitely sequence it, but could he be getting more power out of his swing if he didn't set late and then release early? He isn't a long hitter by Tour standards. 

I just made this exact point in another thread and TK was who I had in mind.

 

I say this about successful young players with other moves that aren’t quite as efficient as they could be.  Sam Bennett with his excess right bend.  Koepka with his restricted hip turn.  
 

“You’re here, don’t mess with it now.  Make 100 mil, then when you taper off or it starts to hurt, come see me.”

 

That’s what I’d tell them if they asked me . The Jason Day journey.  He waited a year or two too long, but glad he won again after freeing up.

[Valtiel]

19 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s what I’d tell them if they asked me . The Jason Day journey.  He waited a year or two too long, but glad he won again after freeing up.

That was definitely cool to see, both the win and the significantly less restricted hip turn. 2022 on the left, 2015 on the right. 

[MonteScheinblum]

25 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

That was definitely cool to see, both the win and the significantly less restricted hip turn. 2022 on the left, 2015 on the right. 

…and ironically, considering the war of words on here an social media, unload the right elbow earlier to shallow.