Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[DShepley]

39 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

No need for 3d data.  






Cut and paste from another thread.
 

Nelly isn't pinned until her chest rotation catches up to her arms.  She has moved her arms across her body.

 

After impact when her arms straighten and her lead shoulder moves up and back, the upper arm gets pinned.  If her body was driving and the arms were passive, her arms would be pinned in the first picture wouldn't they?

Edited January 17 by DShepley

[Hidraw]

3 hours ago, DShepley said:

Nelly isn't pinned until her chest rotation catches up to her arms.  She has moved her arms across her body.

 

After impact when her arms straighten and her lead shoulder moves up and back, the upper arm gets pinned.  If her body was driving and the arms were passive, her arms would be pinned in the first picture wouldn't they?

That looks weird for the usually excellent swing of Nelly's.
We could find slow motion videos of the best players and study closely.
Nevertheless, I claim that keeping both arms straight after impact is a misconception and wrong instruction.
 

[MonteScheinblum]

It doesn’t look like he’s keeping the left arm passive against the chest letting it fall with gravity and just tilting and turning.  I hear this guy won a few tournaments.

[Trippels]

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It doesn’t look like he’s keeping the left arm passive against the chest letting it fall with gravity and just tilting and turning.  I hear this guy won a few tournaments.

 

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, DShepley said:

Nelly isn't pinned until her chest rotation catches up to her arms.  She has moved her arms across her body.

 

This is partially true. This can also be a harmful illusion. It looks like here hands are even with her belt buckle when they are really more on the trail side of her body. She hasn’t really moved her arms “across her body” here. 

 

[DShepley]

12 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

That looks weird for the usually excellent swing of Nelly's.
We could find slow motion videos of the best players and study closely.
Nevertheless, I claim that keeping both arms straight after impact is a misconception and wrong instruction.
 

Not pinned here either

 

or here

 

 

or here

 

or here

 

How many do you want to see?

[DShepley]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

This is partially true. This can also be a harmful illusion. It looks like here hands are even with her belt buckle when they are really more on the trail side of her body. She hasn’t really moved her arms “across her body” here. 

 

She certainly hasn't pinned her arm against her chest 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, DShepley said:

She certainly hasn't pinned her arm against her chest 

That’s not her pattern

[virtuoso]

4 hours ago, Hidraw said:

No need for 3d data.  






Cut and paste from another thread.
 

Agreed

[Zitlow]

Don't try to keep up with the speed of the shaft by dragging the club with your left arm. 

 

 

The shaft catches the left arm and then passes the left arm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Don't try to keep up with the speed of the shaft by dragging the club with your left arm.

 

I don't think anyone's saying that.

 

7 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

The shaft catches the left arm and then passes the left arm.

 

Wow, really?!?! </s>

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Don't try to keep up with the speed of the shaft by dragging the club with your left arm. 

 

 

The shaft catches the left arm and then passes the left arm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any examples of it not catching the arm?...just so we know what not to do. I like visuals.

[Hidraw]

5 hours ago, DShepley said:

Not pinned here either

 

or here

 

 

or here

 

or here

 

How many do you want to see?

That is before she fires her second-stage engine - extension of the left side sending the left shoulder upward and away from the target line.  This creates large g force leveraging the left arm and club to "fall" forward.  When the leverage is spent, the left arm simply follows the left shoulder and that is when the pinning look appears.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Hidraw said:

We could find slow motion videos of the best players and study closely.

 

Or, better yet… we could study 3D data of what the best players do.

 

I realize a lot of this is "pictures are easy to find, and post, and so they're almost the best of what we have," but trying to "analyze" photos is fraught with danger, as a ton of poor conclusions can be reached. People will also see what they want to see.

[Hidraw]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Or, better yet… we could study 3D data of what the best players do.

 

I realize a lot of this is "pictures are easy to find, and post, and so they're almost the best of what we have," but trying to "analyze" photos is fraught with danger, as a ton of poor conclusions can be reached. People will also see what they want to see.

I know, I know.  Acceleration vectors are difficult to see.  But ton of poor, irrelevant and harmful conclusions can be reached by analyzing data too.

I like this research paper a lot 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761476/

It is stated there that the instantaneous radius of curvature of the hub path (hand path) is minimum at impact.
How do you conclude from that data?

 

Edited January 18 by Hidraw

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

How do you conclude from that data?

 

I don't know — I'm not really gonna read that right now. It doesn't seem to be on topic.

 

Edited January 18 by iacas

[Hidraw]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I don't know — I'm not really gonna read that right now. It doesn't seem to be on topic.

 

Oh, yes.  It is highly relevant to the topic.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

Oh, yes.  It is highly relevant to the topic.

 

Impact ≠ "the top of the backswing."

[Hidraw]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Impact ≠ "the top of the backswing."

Climax ≠ Foreplay

Sorry ladies, I couldn't resist.

 

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I know, I know.  Acceleration vectors are difficult to see.  But ton of poor, irrelevant and harmful conclusions can be reached by analyzing data too.

I like this research paper a lot 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761476/

It is stated there that the instantaneous radius of curvature of the hub path (hand path) is minimum at impact.
How do you conclude from that data?

 

You should start a thread about the harmful conclusions that can be drawn from analyzing 3D data. That would be a very interesting thread that we could all learn from. We have a few guys here that have access to that data and it would be a great debate.

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

You should start a thread about the harmful conclusions that can be drawn from analyzing 3D data. That would be a very interesting thread that we could all learn from. We have a few guys here that have access to that data and it would be a great debate.

Data is data and as long as it is correct it can be useful if applied correctly.  I watched some really smart folks do some amazing data analysis when I was working.  I also saw a few dimwit managers make some incredible leaps of the imagination on sketchy data to try to get their way or prove something that was obviously incorrect.  I think that we sometimes see both ends of that spectrum here.

Edited January 18 by Nels55
typo

[Zitlow]

The club catches her left arm at impact. If she casted the club it would be out of sequence and it would catch up before impact which is no bueno. 

 

The club is being thrown from via her right shoulder, arm and hand from the ground up. Her right elbow unfolding works like a differential in a car accelerating the clubhead. 

 

Tension in her shoulders, arms or hands would block the flow of energy to the clubhead. 

 

 

The downswing is set up by the backswing and is basically a shift, turn and throw. The lower body brings the upper body, the upper body brings the right shoulder, the right shoulder brings the arm and the arm brings the hand. 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Zitlow

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some Mac video clips, nice. Share more of those when you post, interesting to see what Mac has to say over the years on the swing even if it's right/wrong.

[virtuoso]

23 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Some Mac video clips, nice. Share more of those when you post, interesting to see what Mac has to say over the years on the swing even if it's right/wrong.

MK, just go to Kevin Ralbovsky's you tube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/@kevinralbovsky4621/videos

 

Edited January 18 by virtuoso

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Data is data and as long as it is correct it can be useful if applied correctly.  I watched some really smart folks do some amazing data analysis when I was working.  I also saw a few dimwit managers make some incredible leaps of the imagination on sketchy data to try to get their way or prove something that was obviously incorrect.  I think that we sometimes see both ends of that spectrum here.

I agree. It doesn't matter how exact the science is, there will always be someone who thinks they know better or who makes invalid claims about it. Unfortunately unless you're in a medium where reasoned concensus matters you will always run into that, and the world and internet at large tend to not be such a medium. An office with a bad manager who rules by fiat definitely isn't. 

 

The big issue here is that unless people call out bad claims they go unchecked. You also have posters who try to say those claims are valid because they're someone's opinion, as though that will prevent the injuries from bad technique or get back wasted time and energy. 

[Zitlow]

56 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Some Mac video clips, nice. Share more of those when you post, interesting to see what Mac has to say over the years on the swing even if it's right/wrong.

 

The orientation of the shaft and face as the club swings on the proper plane is my main takeaway from Mac. 

 

IMO most swing flaws would be sorted out just by knowing how the club should move along the inclined plane. Form follows function

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShowMe]

Very confusing, all these different swing theories.  I just try to hit the ball at 7 o'clock (Noon being the part of the ball closest to the target) with my right shoulder as hard as I can.  Don't even think about what my arms or hands are doing.  They just follow along naturally.  Very repeatable with reliable results.

[GolfTurkey]

6 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I think that we sometimes see both ends of that spectrum here.

 

We definitely see all ends of the spectrum on here.

[Hidraw]

16 hours ago, virtuoso said:

You should start a thread about the harmful conclusions that can be drawn from analyzing 3D data. That would be a very interesting thread that we could all learn from. We have a few guys here that have access to that data and it would be a great debate.

I have high regards for you from reading your posts.

The days of conflict management, tribal (departmental) wars, are over for me.
To me golf swing is a hobby, like model airplanes, but with my body as the toy.
To the professions, it is their livelihood, much gain and loss at stake.

Data, data where is the usable information.
Really, the mechanical principle required for a sound golf swing is rather simple.
I am seeking for fundamentals as opposed to minutiaes that promoted for marketing purpose.

I have seen demonstration of golf swings with left hand only, and with right hand only.  Each is functional though not very powerful.  I bet that the same mechanical principle is applicable for the left and right side swing.  Can data helps fit the left side and right side swings seamlessly together.  Time to head for the lab.  
 

[virtuoso]

54 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

I have high regards for you from reading your posts.

The days of conflict management, tribal (departmental) wars, are over for me.
To me golf swing is a hobby, like model airplanes, but with my body as the toy.
To the professions, it is their livelihood, much gain and loss at stake.

Data, data where is the usable information.
Really, the mechanical principle required for a sound golf swing is rather simple.
I am seeking for fundamentals as opposed to minutiaes that promoted for marketing purpose.

I have seen demonstration of golf swings with left hand only, and with right hand only.  Each is functional though not very powerful.  I bet that the same mechanical principle is applicable for the left and right side swing.  Can data helps fit the left side and right side swings seamlessly together.  Time to head for the lab.  
 

That’s where you and I differ though. Bio-mechanically, I think how the left and right arm work by themselves tells us very little about how they work together.

 

You might be able to make an argument that the trail hand only can replicate a similar sequence and pull slack out of the system similar to both hands, but the lead hand by itself is utterly useless as a training tool. It can be made to work but it would mislead you as too what should happen with both hands attached.

Edited January 19 by virtuoso