TUGR Golf Rankings - How is this not the only accepted method of ranking?

[bscinstnct]

I’ll agree that owgr is not representative of the exact rankings as they should be. Rahm will fall into owgr oblivion but we know he’s a top golfer. 

 

But also that it’s not possible to accurately rank liv guys once they leave the  pga tour because 

 

Anthony Kim 🤣

 

So, it’s really just “you made your bed”

 

 

[HulaGolfMom]

15 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

no ones done that so how could they factor that in

https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/after-owgr-raises-concern-sebastian-munoz-clarifies-past-comments
He definitely didn’t putt with the same mindset as he would’ve a playing a conventional tournament, I slightly misspoke, but the general point is the same.

[King_Slender]

5 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I’ll agree that owgr is not representative of the exact rankings as they should be. Rahm will fall into owgr oblivion but we know he’s a top golfer. 

 

But also that it’s not possible to accurately rank liv guys once they leave the  pga tour because 

 

Anthony Kim 🤣

 

So, it’s really just “you made your bed”

 

 

 

It actually is.  A guy who is 33 strokes off the lead in TUGR would be at the bottom of the TUGR rankings. 

 

To be fair, nobody really cares about the world rankings once you get outside the Top 100 - Tours can let all the Anthony Kim, Tony Romo, and Steph Curry's play that they want - they won't rank anywhere. 

[King_Slender]

4 minutes ago, HulaGolfMom said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/after-owgr-raises-concern-sebastian-munoz-clarifies-past-comments
He definitely didn’t putt with the same mindset as he would’ve a playing a conventional tournament, I slightly misspoke, but the general point is the same.

 

The same could be said for a guy who is sitting in solo third who might not be aggressive on a putt that could get him into a tie for second because he also doesn't want to run it 10 feet by and end up tied for third.  Same could be said for pros who back stop other competitors by not marking their ball on the green - this happened on #10 at Riviera just this year when ball that should have rolled over and probably been a bogey hit a competitor ball that should have been marked and made birdie instead.  

 

These minor idiosyncrasies are negligible and balance out.

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, King_Slender said:

 

It actually is.  A guy who is 33 strokes off the lead in TUGR would be at the bottom of the TUGR rankings. 

 

To be fair, nobody really cares about the world rankings once you get outside the Top 100 - Tours can let all the Anthony Kim, Tony Romo, and Steph Curry's play that they want - they won't rank anywhere. 

 

What I meant was that the field of liv is so fragmented with a majority of players that never were ranked, were poorly ranked when they joined, and/or there isn’t enough data on them to accurately rank them against 

 

The other 1000+ players who have been participating in a golf ecosystem with a multiple more data points and frames of reference 

 

LIV is impossible to accurately rank for now and it will be years before it is possible. 
 

All we know is that a LIV field is sorta kinda a good field compared to say The Players. The same way an average pga tour event is.

 

But the problem is that it’s been impossible to rank guys like Bryson, DJ, PR, or all the aging euros. Or these liv rookies

 

So, they just need to accept they can’t be ranked

 

Its just up to the majors to make the call

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

16 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

It actually is.  A guy who is 33 strokes off the lead in TUGR would be at the bottom of the TUGR rankings. 

 

To be fair, nobody really cares about the world rankings once you get outside the Top 100 - Tours can let all the Anthony Kim, Tony Romo, and Steph Curry's play that they want - they won't rank anywhere. 

So by that account LIV events are a quick 3 rounds between 20 or so buddies (and that's according to TUGR rankings!) ?... that makes a legitimate case for meritocracy haha!

Edited March 4 by Varry_Hardon

[HulaGolfMom]

10 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

The same could be said for a guy who is sitting in solo third who might not be aggressive on a putt that could get him into a tie for second because he also doesn't want to run it 10 feet by and end up tied for third.  Same could be said for pros who back stop other competitors by not marking their ball on the green - this happened on #10 at Riviera just this year when ball that should have rolled over and probably been a bogey hit a competitor ball that should have been marked and made birdie instead.  

 

These minor idiosyncrasies are negligible and balance out.

He clearly said he was thinking of the team aspect, that is the clear issue that the OWGR has with LIV.

[jdl]

1 minute ago, HulaGolfMom said:

He clearly said he was thinking of the team aspect, that is the clear issue that the OWGR has with LIV.

Yes, but more of a minor issue compared to the lack of turnover on the LIV tour, IMO.

[bcjim]

32 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

no ones done that so how could they factor that in

Surely some shots have been struck with team results in mind.  For example: Unreasonably risky (or conservative) shots in an attempt to improve or preserve the team placing.

[Dutch1008]

Despite it's name, OWGR is not a ranking system, it's a qualification system. A system put in place and agreed upon by the governing bodies, the major championships, and 20 professional tours. Playing well in sanctioned events earns points, the more points you earn the more access to events you get. It's that simple. All of these invested parties agree on the characteristics of sanctioned events. It's not just a system for the majors, it's a system for organizing professional golf. 

 

OWGR is not trying to answer the question, who's the best player? or is X better than Y? They are asking, "who deserves to participate in X based on their performance in sanctioned events?". 

 

If you want to rank golfers, use datagolf.  

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Joaquin Niemann is the best golfer in the world right now and he is ranked #72….#OWGRbroken.

On the flip side….last year Gooch won 3 events on the vaunted LIV tour.  He also played in 6 events with ranking points with a high finish of t12 and MC’s in both majors he played in.  #OWGRworkingjust fine.

[jimecherry]

9 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Surely some shots have been struck with team results in mind.  For example: Unreasonably risky (or conservative) shots in an attempt to improve or preserve the team placing.

for that to be the case players would have to be privy of team score before every shot at the end and shotgun start makes that hard.

Edited March 4 by jimecherry

[jimecherry]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

On the flip side….last year Gooch won 3 events on the vaunted LIV tour.  He also played in 6 events with ranking points with a high finish of t12 and MC’s in both majors he played in.  #OWGRworkingjust fine.

are you purposely ignoring all the other cases of #owgrnotworkingjustfine ;}

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, jimecherry said:

are you purposely ignoring all the other cases of #owgrnotworkingjustfine ;}

Here’s the question I’ve raised in this discussion for a bit over two years.  At the time of starting a bunch of guys on LIV we’re in the top 100.  Guys at the tail end of their career …we all know who they are.  With the closed shop that is LIV at this point if they were getting ranking points they would probably still be highly ranked.  And a Gooch would be in the top 5 off his three wins last year.

[King_Slender]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

So by that account LIV events are a quick 3 rounds between 20 or so buddies (and that's according to TUGR rankings!) ?... that makes a legitimate case for meritocracy haha!

 

Like the Hero World Challenge?

[King_Slender]

34 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Surely some shots have been struck with team results in mind.  For example: Unreasonably risky (or conservative) shots in an attempt to improve or preserve the team placing.

 

But players with significant paychecks on the line finishing Top 10 but no chance of winning don't get conservative to preserve their position to improve their payout? 

 

This is a massive non-issue.

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Like the Hero World Challenge?

Agree - that event should never count towards a world ranking

[RobS]

The Majors can change their criteria anytime they want.  They can make the OWGR obsolete outside of the participating tours by using another ranking system or a combination of qualifying and arbitrary invitations.  It doesn't seem like the Majors are unhappy with the OWGR at present time though.  Given that 2 of the Majors were instrumental in creating the OWGR, they're probably in no rush to abandon it or abandon the rules that the member tours bought into.  

[King_Slender]

36 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Here’s the question I’ve raised in this discussion for a bit over two years.  At the time of starting a bunch of guys on LIV we’re in the top 100.  Guys at the tail end of their career …we all know who they are.  With the closed shop that is LIV at this point if they were getting ranking points they would probably still be highly ranked.  And a Gooch would be in the top 5 off his three wins last year.

 

Using TUGR they would continue to fall because they are performing poorly against the competition they are competing against.  That's why using a comparative strokes-based system like TUGR or Data Golf makes more sense than an arbitrary "strength of field"  based system.

 

Let's take 3 LIV Players as an example and their relative score to par in each tournament this year.  I'll randomly pick Cam Smith, Kevin Na, and Ian Poulter.

 

Mayakoba

Cam Smith -7

Kevin Na -3

Ian Poulter E

 

Las Vegas

Cam Smith -5

Kevin Na -1

Ian Poulter -4

 

Jeddah

Cam Smith -1

Kevin Na -7

Ian Poulter +4

 

Comparatively, looking at their scores:

• Smith is 2 strokes over 3 events better than Na, or 0.67 strokes per round
• Smith is 13 strokes better than Poulter over 3 rounds, or 4.33 strokes per round
• Na is 11 strokes better than Poulter over 2 rounds 3.67 strokes per round (the exact difference between how Smith performed vs. Na vs. Smith versus Poulter.

Instead of just doing this with 3 players in the same event, you can do it with hundreds of players across events they don't even play in and determine, in a very general sense "Scottie Scheffler is XX strokes better than Richard Bland because Scottie competes well with LIV guys in the majors who consistently beat Bland in the LIV tournaments." 

 

It's a very elegant ranking system.

Edited March 4 by King_Slender

[bscinstnct]

12 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Like the Hero World Challenge?

The field of the hero can and does turnover based on owgr turning over

 

LIV has no qualification criteria beyond Greg Norman’s mandate

 

And as a closed shop, the turnover is limited or possibly nil

 

 

[jimecherry]

5 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

The field of the hero can and does turnover based on owgr turning over

 

LIV has no qualification criteria beyond Greg Norman’s mandate

 

And as a closed shop, the turnover is limited or possibly nil

 

 

think tiger will reinvite rahm to this years hero ;}

Edited March 4 by jimecherry

[bscinstnct]

2 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

think tiger will reinvite rahm to this years hero ;}

 

Hopefully the deal gets done and he will!

 

Rahm looks like he’s getting annoyed with the mumble rap already 🤣

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Using TUGR they would continue to fall because they are performing poorly against the competition they are competing against.  That's why using a comparative strokes-based system like TUGR or Data Golf makes more sense than an arbitrary "strength of field"  based system.

 

Let's take 3 LIV Players as an example and their relative score to par in each tournament this year.  I'll randomly pick Cam Smith, Kevin Na, and Ian Poulter.

 

Mayakoba

Cam Smith -7

Kevin Na -3

Ian Poulter E

 

Las Vegas

Cam Smith -5

Kevin Na -1

Ian Poulter -4

 

Jeddah

Cam Smith -1

Kevin Na -7

Ian Poulter +4

 

Comparatively, looking at their scores:

• Smith is 2 strokes over 3 events better than Na, or 0.67 strokes per round
• Smith is 13 strokes better than Poulter over 3 rounds, or 4.33 strokes per round
• Na is 11 strokes better than Poulter over 2 rounds 3.67 strokes per round (the exact difference between how Smith performed vs. Na vs. Smith versus Poulter.

Instead of just doing this with 3 players in the same event, you can do it with hundreds of players across events they don't even play in and determine, in a very general sense "Scottie Scheffler is XX strokes better than Richard Bland because Scottie competes well with LIV guys in the majors who consistently beat Bland in the LIV tournaments." 

 

It's a very elegant ranking system.

Not so elegant though.  Cam is X number of strokes better than who? Guys that only compete on LIV and no longer in any majors or ranked events?  So what?

[Rapidcat]

Just now, bscinstnct said:

 

Hopefully the deal gets done and he will!

 

Rahm looks like he’s getting annoyed with the mumble rap already 🤣

 

He's getting annoyed because he can't win as easily as he might have hoped.

 

He'll be one unhappy and an embarrassed dude if he doesn't win this season. 

[GwrxMod]

This has become another LIV vs PGA topic.  🔒