Recent Bandon Dunes Course Conditions - Yikes...

[Stevens24]

They post the aerating schedule on the website for 2 years. You can see 24’ and 25’ schedule. Plan accordingly 

[jvincent]

Just to provide a current update, here's an update from today, the last day of out trip.

 

Old Mac greens are in great shape.

Trails and Pacific are also good with the exception 11 on Pacific and one green on Trails. Can't remember which one.

Sheep Ranch is still in the poa grow in phase so its patchy/bumpy.

Bandon is in rough shape. They done a full aeration and heavily sanded. There are many areas that are more sand than grass. The discount for Bandon is appropriate.

[italianstallion]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:28 PM, Stevens24 said:

They post the aerating schedule on the website for 2 years. You can see 24’ and 25’ schedule. Plan accordingly 

It’s still not a guarantee they’re going to punch when they say they will. I went mid-June last year paying summer rates and they had aerated a couple of the courses within 3 weeks of our arrival. Sheep Ranch greens were toast, and Old Mac’s weren’t very good either. 
 

They must’ve gotten and actually listed to the feedback they got from last year when no discounts were given, and that’s good to see. I’m perfectly understanding of the fact that foot traffic, weather, and other elements can conspire to create poor course conditions, but when you’ve booked 2 years in advance paying premium rates, a little acknowledgement that the courses aren’t premium shape goes a long way. I think a 25% discount is very fair, and would’ve certainly changed my perception of the place had they extended that to us. 

[Stevens24]

21 hours ago, italianstallion said:

It’s still not a guarantee they’re going to punch when they say they will. I went mid-June last year paying summer rates and they had aerated a couple of the courses within 3 weeks of our arrival. Sheep Ranch greens were toast, and Old Mac’s weren’t very good either. 
 

They must’ve gotten and actually listed to the feedback they got from last year when no discounts were given, and that’s good to see. I’m perfectly understanding of the fact that foot traffic, weather, and other elements can conspire to create poor course conditions, but when you’ve booked 2 years in advance paying premium rates, a little acknowledgement that the courses aren’t premium shape goes a long way. I think a 25% discount is very fair, and would’ve certainly changed my perception of the place had they extended that to us. 

Well Feb and March are 50% of prime rates and much of that is due to potential condition issues. Yes 175 is still a lot but courses like Pebble are the same rate all 12 months. And on the Oregon course in an El Nino year. I am going in May and am going to enjoy the total experience. But i agree that they should try to be ahead of the curve on the customer service side. 

[TexasTurf]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:49 PM, italianstallion said:

It’s still not a guarantee they’re going to punch when they say they will. I went mid-June last year paying summer rates and they had aerated a couple of the courses within 3 weeks of our arrival. Sheep Ranch greens were toast, and Old Mac’s weren’t very good either. 
 

They must’ve gotten and actually listed to the feedback they got from last year when no discounts were given, and that’s good to see. I’m perfectly understanding of the fact that foot traffic, weather, and other elements can conspire to create poor course conditions, but when you’ve booked 2 years in advance paying premium rates, a little acknowledgement that the courses aren’t premium shape goes a long way. I think a 25% discount is very fair, and would’ve certainly changed my perception of the place had they extended that to us. 

They could easily solve this issue by offering a salary to get people in there that know what they are doing. But the Keiser family never will.

[Stevens24]

22 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

They could easily solve this issue by offering a salary to get people in there that know what they are doing. But the Keiser family never will.

They have had 31.7 inches of rain this year and it has rained 73% of the days. You are going to have a couple of holes have issues. Good to know I won’t be seeing you there 

Edited April 9 by Stevens24

[kkelway]

On 4/2/2024 at 10:35 PM, TexasTurf said:

That's just bad construction / drainage. Easy fix. Definitely not just a bad weather issue.

 

Easy fixes galore!

[TexasTurf]

7 hours ago, Stevens24 said:

They have had 31.7 inches of rain this year and it has rained 73% of the days. You are going to have a couple of holes have issues. Good to know I won’t be seeing you there 

USGA specs are drainage on greens at water conductivity at minimum of 6 inches per hour. So all that water over the entire season should have drained in a total of about 5 hours if built correctly. But kill the messenger, I get it.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/course-care/2004 USGA Recommendations For a Method of Putting Green Cons.pdf

Edited April 9 by TexasTurf

[TexasTurf]

1 hour ago, kkelway said:

 

Easy fixes galore!

Fix the subgrade, or build it correctly in the first place instead of cutting corners, Carl Spacler would have done it better.

[mallrat]

I’m not sure if you are serious or not.

 

Their Director of Agronomy is as good as they come and the Supers and Assistants are outstanding. Including bringing them in on multiple other properties during the grow in phase. No short cuts have been spared in the building of those courses and they are probably some of it not the best draining courses in the US. There are probably only a handful of courses in the US that get as much play as all of those courses do and this is the real issue, of which 1/2 of those go dormant. The only other time they have had any real issues is during the transition from fescue to Poa. 

[Stevens24]

6 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

USGA specs are drainage on greens at water conductivity at minimum of 6 inches per hour. So all that water over the entire season should have drained in a total of about 5 hours if built correctly. But kill the messenger, I get it.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/course-care/2004 USGA Recommendations For a Method of Putting Green Cons.pdf

While the ground can drain it,  it does not mean grass can survive it. 

[Seamus_MacDuff]

9 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

USGA specs are drainage on greens at water conductivity at minimum of 6 inches per hour. So all that water over the entire season should have drained in a total of about 5 hours if built correctly. But kill the messenger, I get it.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/course-care/2004 USGA Recommendations For a Method of Putting Green Cons.pdf

 

USGA spec greens have their limitations, one of which being the inability to build highly contoured greens.  And the resort has some really bold, contoured greens that could not have been built if they were to USGA specifications.

[italianstallion]

8 hours ago, mallrat said:

I’m not sure if you are serious or not.

 

Their Director of Agronomy is as good as they come and the Supers and Assistants are outstanding. Including bringing them in on multiple other properties during the grow in phase. No short cuts have been spared in the building of those courses and they are probably some of it not the best draining courses in the US. There are probably only a handful of courses in the US that get as much play as all of those courses do and this is the real issue, of which 1/2 of those go dormant. The only other time they have had any real issues is during the transition from fescue to Poa. 

 

Which to me opens up a whole new can of worms. The business has prioritized making profits over maintaining good course conditions. They could drop to half the tee times and get back to good course conditions, but they've created a massive resort that is undoubtedly expensive to run. From their perspective it is better that their rooms/tee sheets are filled with people rather than have their greens be filled with grass.

 

Declaimer if it isn't obvious already: I'm not as enamored with the place as most people are.

[Stevens24]

7 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

 

Which to me opens up a whole new can of worms. The business has prioritized making profits over maintaining good course conditions. They could drop to half the tee times and get back to good course conditions, but they've created a massive resort that is undoubtedly expensive to run. From their perspective it is better that their rooms/tee sheets are filled with people rather than have their greens be filled with grass.

 

Declaimer if it isn't obvious already: I'm not as enamored with the place as most people are.

Bandon’s limitation is rooms. This is not some Municipal launching groups

off every 6 minutes. The reason you need to book 18-22 months out is lodging. If you watch the cameras there are gaps constantly. And in reality it is maybe 3-5 greens out of 90. 

[kkelway]

If every business doesn’t prioritize profits (being ethical as a given) then they should be a non profit. I believe in supply, demand, and resulting price as being fair and efficient. Bandon is at the very least fair (second round half and 3rd free!), but imo the best trip package out there.  If you plan it right you can get 6+ world class rounds in one trip at great value. 
 

it’s not like we’re talking about condition issues every month every year. A lot of it recently was on Sheep, a new course in transition. And now Bandon with record rainfall. I’ve gone 6x since 2015 including last year and never has poor course conditions been remotely on my mind. Bandon and Trails were pristine enough to hold the US Amateurs not too long ago (the most enjoyable to watch imo). 

 

My main issue is now is it’s so much more packed it’s hard to book and moving tee times is getting challenging. So I hope more people feel it’s “not worth it” so spots open up and prices drop - but not gonna happen. 

 

 

 

 

[TexasTurf]

14 hours ago, Seamus_MacDuff said:

 

USGA spec greens have their limitations, one of which being the inability to build highly contoured greens.  And the resort has some really bold, contoured greens that could not have been built if they were to USGA specifications.

Contours help drainage, water goes downhill. Don't know what you're trying to get at here.

[TexasTurf]

22 hours ago, mallrat said:

I’m not sure if you are serious or not.

 

Their Director of Agronomy is as good as they come and the Supers and Assistants are outstanding. Including bringing them in on multiple other properties during the grow in phase. No short cuts have been spared in the building of those courses and they are probably some of it not the best draining courses in the US. There are probably only a handful of courses in the US that get as much play as all of those courses do and this is the real issue, of which 1/2 of those go dormant. The only other time they have had any real issues is during the transition from fescue to Poa. 

Just put a grass in that doesn't transition. Fescue and poa only barely tolerate cold and stop growing, then immediately die in heat if it isn't in shade. Bent loves cold and warm and grows throughout if it's kept dry enough. It's grass, not rocket science, but it requires effort, not bailing out every day early afternoon.

[mallrat]

36 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

Just put a grass in that doesn't transition. Fescue and poa only barely tolerate cold and stop growing, then immediately die in heat if it isn't in shade. Bent loves cold and warm and grows throughout if it's kept dry enough. It's grass, not rocket science, but it requires effort, not bailing out every day early afternoon.

What? Fescue thrives in that type of environment. Ireland and Scotland are the same environments basically.  In the PNW there is zero chance you are keeping Poa out. Bent shuts down longer than either of those two and almost goes dormant for 4-6 months a year and in no way are you keeping it dry enough. 
 

 

[vallygolf]

9 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Just put a grass in that doesn't transition. Fescue and poa only barely tolerate cold and stop growing, then immediately die in heat if it isn't in shade. Bent loves cold and warm and grows throughout if it's kept dry enough. It's grass, not rocket science, but it requires effort, not bailing out every day early afternoon.

Amazing.  You just solved all greens problems in the PNW sitting in front of your computer.  I hope all the ignorant architects and superintendents get a chance to read what you wrote.  You seem very very smart.

[david.c.w]

I have only been to Bandon once, and I loved it.  Wonderful overall experience.  That being said, I found the courses to be fine.  Not great.  Old Mac was my favorite.  Trails has grown on me over the years since I played it.  Sheep ranch was awesome but really is just a big field.  Pacific and Bandon blended together for me.  I was there in October and the greens must have been running at max of 9.  So slow.

 

People should go to Bandon for the golf experience, not the golf courses. 

 

Side note on conditions.  I am about as far away from an agronomist as you can get, but I am not sure bent can handle 35k - 40k rounds per year.  I also thought that the theory behind some of the architecture was "take what the land gives you", so it is not supposed to be cut and shaped and drained and turned into a perfect course.

 

[knock it close]

40 minutes ago, vallygolf said:

Amazing.  You just solved all greens problems in the PNW sitting in front of your computer.  I hope all the ignorant architects and superintendents get a chance to read what you wrote.  You seem very very smart.

Truly one of the most arrogant comments I've seen on WRX, just plant bent in the PNW, that will solve all the poa issues🙄

[puttnforthe8]

Just now, knock it close said:

Truly one of the most arrogant comments I've seen on WRX, just plant bent in the PNW, that will solve all the poa issues🙄

 

"arrogant" is not the word I would use! 🤔 

 

[Golfnuck]

40 minutes ago, puttnforthe8 said:

 

"arrogant" is not the word I would use! 🤔 

 

 

Perhaps misinformed.

[knock it close]

1 hour ago, Golfnuck said:

 

Perhaps misinformed.

except he works in turf grass and uses it to talk down to the regulars even when he's woefully ignorant of PNW grasses. That's arrogance. 

[mallrat]

4 hours ago, david.c.w said:

I have only been to Bandon once, and I loved it.  Wonderful overall experience.  That being said, I found the courses to be fine.  Not great.  Old Mac was my favorite.  Trails has grown on me over the years since I played it.  Sheep ranch was awesome but really is just a big field.  Pacific and Bandon blended together for me.  I was there in October and the greens must have been running at max of 9.  So slow.

 

People should go to Bandon for the golf experience, not the golf courses. 

 

Side note on conditions.  I am about as far away from an agronomist as you can get, but I am not sure bent can handle 35k - 40k rounds per year.  I also thought that the theory behind some of the architecture was "take what the land gives you", so it is not supposed to be cut and shaped and drained and turned into a perfect course.

 

If they did 40k per year the grass would be thriving. Last I heard (which was pre-Covid) they were pushing almost 80k. 

[jvincent]

18 hours ago, mallrat said:

If they did 40k per year the grass would be thriving. Last I heard (which was pre-Covid) they were pushing almost 80k. 

 

I talked to the director of golf when I was there for the Solstice last year. Across all 5 courses they had over 250K rounds the year before. There is no more off season. People are there all year.

 

I'm sure Bandon/Pacific get a little more play than the others so 70k+ is not out of line for those two.

[me05501]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:56 AM, david.c.w said:

I have only been to Bandon once, and I loved it.  Wonderful overall experience.  That being said, I found the courses to be fine.  Not great.  Old Mac was my favorite.  Trails has grown on me over the years since I played it.  Sheep ranch was awesome but really is just a big field.  Pacific and Bandon blended together for me.  I was there in October and the greens must have been running at max of 9.  So slow.

 

People should go to Bandon for the golf experience, not the golf courses. 

 

Good courses get overhyped to the point that they could never live up to some people's expectations. And once they are considered top courses they become almost immune to well-intended criticism. 

 

There are more good holes than bad at Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines South, and (ahem) Augusta National...but it's close. Some of the holes on these courses are compromised to say the least. Sacrilege! 

 

[italianstallion]

3 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

Good courses get overhyped to the point that they could never live up to some people's expectations. And once they are considered top courses they become almost immune to well-intended criticism. 

 

There are more good holes than bad at Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines South, and (ahem) Augusta National...but it's close. Some of the holes on these courses are compromised to say the least. Sacrilege! 

 

 

Completely agreed. No course is immune to bad holes, or at the very least, less than spectacular holes. Every course can be criticized. I haven't played it, but I hear much more of how great Royal County Down's front nine is than anything at all about the back nine. That in itself is a criticism right there, and that's a course that's consistently ranked as one of the best three courses in the world. The Bandon courses certainly shouldn't be immune. 

[TexasTurf]

Both masters leaders have been preparing on our club's greens in Dallas for the last 2 weeks, not some poa or fescue weed grass you call greens. But I have no idea what I am doing.

[SnowbirdTom]

6 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Both masters leaders have been preparing on our club's greens in Dallas for the last 2 weeks, not some poa or fescue weed grass you call greens. But I have no idea what I am doing.

 

Texas isn't the Pacific northwet by a long shot.  Your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance.