Is The Search For The Original Ball Compulsory After A Better Provisional Played?

[EmperorPenguin]

Suppose a golf course ends on a par 3, and in a match a player needs a par on the final hole to win the match.  He shanks his tee shot into the woods and announces a provisional ball.  The provisional finishes in the hole for a hole in three.  Can his opponent compel a search for the original?

[rogolf]

No, the opponent cannot compel the player to search for the original.  However, the opponent can search for the original and if a ball is found by the opponent before the player removes the ball from the hole, the player must identify the found ball.  If it is his original, the player must then continue play with that ball.

The "moment of truth" is when the player removes the provisional ball from the hole.  That is equivalent to making a stroke with the provisional ball from a spot nearer the hole than where the original is likely to be and takes the original ball out of play.

There are rumours about the player racing towards the hole and the opponent racing towards the woods. 🫤

[Mr. Bean]

I cannot understand that this question has been asked on this forum again...

 

Well, short memory is something extremely few people admit for themselves...

 

 

Edited April 14 by Mr. Bean

[Hawkeye77]

Been asked and/or discussed a few times just in the past twelve months. Posting to post - and par 3 is irrelevant. 

Edited April 16 by Hawkeye77

[Augster]

This I like to call the “sprint rule”.

 

I badgered the USGA many times to get this amended, enough so that I’ve given up. 
 

In your scenario, the player who holes out for the 3 can RUN to the hole and try to pull the ball from the cup. For the par to stand, the player needs to pull the ball from the cup before the opponent or FC runs to where the first ball likely lies and YELL “a ball” has been found and the player MUST come ID it. 
 

It’s stupid. 
 

The easy solution is that the player should be able to declare any ball they have played as “lost” at any time. Much like how a player can declare a ball unplayable, even when it’s totally playable. 
 

If one goes down this rabbit hole, they’ll discover all manner of convoluted hypotheticals where declaring a ball lost won’t work. But in the real world, it would work flawlessly 100% of the time. “My provisional is excellent, I’m declaring the first ball lost. Okay?” “Okay.”

 

Really, really hard to see how that wouldn’t work. 

[antip]

First a stroke into the woods. Yep, that happens. Then a hole out with the provisional. Er, never seen nor heard of it outside a rule-site hypothetical. And it happened in match play. Call me when it happens. With evidence.

 

I have ticked two of those boxes - an opponent had a hole in one. Problem was he skipped step one. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

This I like to call the “sprint rule”.

 

I badgered the USGA many times to get this amended, enough so that I’ve given up. 
 

In your scenario, the player who holes out for the 3 can RUN to the hole and try to pull the ball from the cup. For the par to stand, the player needs to pull the ball from the cup before the opponent or FC runs to where the first ball likely lies and YELL “a ball” has been found and the player MUST come ID it. 
 

It’s stupid. 
 

The easy solution is that the player should be able to declare any ball they have played as “lost” at any time. Much like how a player can declare a ball unplayable, even when it’s totally playable. 
 

If one goes down this rabbit hole, they’ll discover all manner of convoluted hypotheticals where declaring a ball lost won’t work. But in the real world, it would work flawlessly 100% of the time. “My provisional is excellent, I’m declaring the first ball lost. Okay?” “Okay.”

 

Really, really hard to see how that wouldn’t work. 

 

Rules are written to be coherent. Being able to declare a ball lost makes the Rules non-coherent.

 

And honestly, how often does this happen that you hole your provisional on a par3 or on any kind of hole? And from those highly numerous cases how often it is highly important for the opponent of other players in the group to go and try to find that original ball?

 

Really...

 

EDIT: Btw, you may always ask your opponent or players in your group not to search for your original ball if you feel continuing with your provisional is a better choice for you. So far I have never encountered a situation where that request had not been honored. And like antip, I have never seen nor heard of such par3 case so I doubt that is worth changing the Rules from coherent to non-coherent...

 

 

Edited April 15 by Mr. Bean

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

The easy solution is that the player should be able to declare any ball they have played as “lost” at any time. Much like how a player can declare a ball unplayable, even when it’s totally playable.

 

No, because the player would have a choice between two balls (potentially) in play.

 

A ball is either "lost" or it is not. It's a factual matter, not a matter of opinion or choice.

 

Edited April 15 by iacas
added second line

[davep043]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

The easy solution is that the player should be able to declare any ball they have played as “lost” at any time. Much like how a player can declare a ball unplayable, even when it’s totally playable. 

In most cases, the Rules require a player to stick with a choice he makes.  When a Provisional Ball is played, its because the Player wants to be able to play the Original Ball if it is found.  That's his CHOICE, he could just as easily have chosen to play that second ball under Stroke and Distance.  To allow him to LATER make the same choice (S&D), essentially to reverse a choice he's already made, is completely inappropriate.  

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No, because the player would have a choice between two balls (potentially) in play.

 

 

This is actually the crux here.

 

I hit a drive into the woods. I hit a provisional ball onto the fairway. Then I go to search my original and find it. Now I can choose between two options which is not what the Rules allow, i.e. Rules are coherent.

 

What @Augster proposes would

1) turn the Rules upside down, and

2) slow the play as people hit provisionals and then run back and forth to check which ball is better to continue with.

 

Huge NO to that proposal.

[EmperorPenguin]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

And honestly, how often does this happen that you hole your provisional on a par3 or on any kind of hole? And from those highly numerous cases how often it is highly important for the opponent of other players in the group to go and try to find that original ball?

It can happen anywhere, especially among hackers.  A simple case is a par 4 where one player hits his tee shot into foot-tall rough and his opponent hit his into jail so severe it is better to play a provisional and play that ball if it lies in the middle of the fairway.  He may think The provisional in the fairway lying three would be way better than his playing five since I know he will take three whacks from the spinach to get to my provisional.  Just abandon the original.

[Augster]

This is why I don’t discuss this anymore, because the replies border on preposterous. It’s almost like nobody has ever played golf and doesn’t know how golf works. 
 

The player simply does not have a “choice between balls in play”. In the EXACT scenario I described, and to a lesser extent the hypothetical the OP described, the player simply turns to their opponent or FC and says. “I’m declaring the first one lost”. Simple. There is no choice between balls. 
 

BEFORE he plays the provisional ball he doesn’t KNOW where his first ball is and how good he’s going to hit the provisional. So he will declare the ball a provisional. When the player murders the provisional, he then declares the first one lost. 
 

It’s really not that hard. 
 

To the “a ball is either lost or it’s not” is also wrong. I can tee again, hitting 3, while I see my ball in plain sight lying in the fairway. Is it actually lost? No, we can see it. But by hitting another ball, hitting 3 from the tee, my actions are deeming it “lost”. Just like my action of saying, “I’m declaring the first ball lost” does. There is zero difference besides your playing partners wondering why you’d hit 3 from the tee when your first ball is in the fairway. 
 

Lastly, where in what world would a player be able to run back and forth between a provisional ball and his FOUND BALL in play???? If you find your ball, the provisional ball is no longer valid. What are you even talking about? Have you read the Rules??? This is so preposterous it’s WAY beneath you Bean. 
 

I can go through the Rules of Golf step by step if I have to. A player strikes his first ball from the tee. He doesn’t see where it went and declares a provisional. This is all legal and in the Rules, you can look it up if you’d like. The player rips his provisional to a spot he’s more than likely going to find it, and decides not to hit another provisional, even though he may have been allowed to. 
 

If he or someone else finds his first ball, that’s his ball in play. Really, look it up, it’s a Rule. The provisional is no longer a valid ball. 
 

The only thing that would be added to the Rules is a player could declare the first ball lost at any time before it is found, and continue play with the provisional ball lying 3. 
 

It’s really not that complicated. 
 

I can walk you through the Rules again if it is. I’m here all week. 
 

 

[EmperorPenguin]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

EDIT: Btw, you may always ask your opponent or players in your group not to search for your original ball if you feel continuing with your provisional is a better choice for you. So far I have never encountered a situation where that request had not been honored. And like antip, I have never seen nor heard of such par3 case so I doubt that is worth changing the Rules from coherent to non-coherent...

This can become hostile.  If the player announces abandoning the original and the opponent defies him and searches for the original, if a ball is found the player does not have the right to refuse acknowledgement of the ball in question on the grounds that he declared the original ball lost?

[sui generis]

45 minutes ago, Augster said:

“I’m declaring the first one lost”.

 

Just say that before playing that provisional (which, of course, is no longer a provisional). Now you're covered. 😉

 

I recall once saying to my group, "This is not a provisional."

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

This is why I don’t discuss this anymore, because the replies border on preposterous. It’s almost like nobody has ever played golf and doesn’t know how golf works.

 

What? No.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The player simply does not have a “choice between balls in play”. In the EXACT scenario I described, and to a lesser extent the hypothetical the OP described, the player simply turns to their opponent or FC and says. “I’m declaring the first one lost”. Simple. There is no choice between balls.

 

Yes there is. He knows the approximate location of two balls, and gets to decide to either look for and play the first one, or ignore it and take the second one he holed (or hit to an inch, or whatever). Additionally, if you simply got to "declare" a ball as lost, he could look for a minute in the "nice" area, and if he didn't find the ball, "declare" it lost then… as his opponent came over to help look for it in the deeper, nastier stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

BEFORE he plays the provisional ball he doesn’t KNOW where his first ball is and how good he’s going to hit the provisional.

 

 

It's still a ball in play.

And this could be abused like crazy, any time a player hit his ball into a spot where you couldn't see it, the player could say "I'm hitting a provisional" and then, if they hit that one really well, "declare" that the first ball is lost. If they hit it poorly, they could look for their first ball.

 

Your position on this is silly.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

It’s really not that hard.

 

Right back atcha.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

To the “a ball is either lost or it’s not” is also wrong. I can tee again, hitting 3, while I see my ball in plain sight lying in the fairway. Is it actually lost? No, we can see it.

 

That's not a lost ball. That's a player proceeding under stroke and distance, which they can do at almost any time. It's a matter of fact whether a ball is lost, even if you "find" it after 3:00. "There it is, right there!" No, it's lost, by rule.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

But by hitting another ball, hitting 3 from the tee, my actions are deeming it “lost”.

 

No, your actions are taking stroke and distance. Not "deeming" it lost. A player cannot deem a ball lost.

 

1 hour ago, Augster said:

I can walk you through the Rules again if it is. I’m here all week. 

 

I suggest you do more reading, of not only the Rules, but also of the responses you've gotten (likely almost any time you've shared this idea).

[Colin L]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:37 AM, Augster said:

If one goes down this rabbit hole, they’ll discover all manner of convoluted hypotheticals where declaring a ball lost won’t work. But in the real world, it would work flawlessly 100% of the time. “My provisional is excellent, I’m declaring the first ball lost. Okay?” “Okay.”

 

Really, really hard to see how that wouldn’t work. 

 

If my memory of the history of this is correct, there is a serious flaw here.   For a short spell, I thinkl in the 60s, the Rules did allow you to declare a ball lost and so the experience of that is not hypothetical.  It was, hovever, a fairly short experience as it was found not to work at all well, never mind flawlessly.

 

A case of been there, tried it, didn't like it.  Maybe that's why the USGA proved immune to your badgering? 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

This can become hostile.  If the player announces abandoning the original and the opponent defies him and searches for the original, if a ball is found the player does not have the right to refuse acknowledgement of the ball in question on the grounds that he declared the original ball lost?

 

Like I wrote, I have never encountered such situation but every time a player says "let's move on" nobody has started / continued search.

 

It might happen in a situation where both players in match play have played a provisional and one or the other decides to search for the opponent's ball just to annoy them and potentially put them back to the tee if original ball is found in a suitable place (i.e. totally unplayable). These cases must be extremely rare and certainly not worth changing the Rules.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

BEFORE he plays the provisional ball he doesn’t KNOW where his first ball is and how good he’s going to hit the provisional. So he will declare the ball a provisional. When the player murders the provisional, he then declares the first one lost. 
 

 

You still seem to ignore the choice the player has here.

 

When a player hits a provisional he has a CHOICE to either look for the original (if he hit a poor provisional) or declare the original lost (if he hit a good provisional). Rules do and should not give a player that choice. You MUST decide whether you hit a provisional or invoke S&D.

 

And do not forget that the pressure to hit a provisional is far lesser than hitting a 3rd off the tee.

 

P.S. I know for a fact that when Rules were changed in 2019 the Ruling Bodies did concider the option of continuing with a provisional ball in case the original ball was so unplayable that the player needs to invoke S&D (as it is today). I do not know why this idea was buried but I might guess it is because of the CHOICE a player should not have.

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 

If my memory of the history of this is correct, there is a serious flaw here.   For a short spell, I thinkl in the 60s, the Rules did allow you to declare a ball lost and so the experience of that is not hypothetical.  It was, hovever, a fairly short experience as it was found not to work at all well, never mind flawlessly.

 

A case of been there, tried it, didn't like it.  Maybe that's why the USGA proved immune to your badgering? 

 

From Rules History we can read that your memory serves rather well. In 1952 provisional was allowed for various reasons and the player had the option to continue play with either of the balls if both were found. In 1968 this was overruled and the player must abandon provisional if the original ball is found in bounds.

 

Edited April 16 by Mr. Bean

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

From Rules History we can read that your memory serves rather well. .....

 

Now there's a novelty.    Thanks for cheering me up.

[nikos74]

IMO the rule should be you either a)have 5 minutes to find the original and play it OR b)S and D applies.

 

Either way the player who hit the bad shot gets penalized and the burden is not on the opponent to find anything.

Edited April 16 by nikos74

[Imp]

4 hours ago, nikos74 said:

IMO the rule should be you either a)have 5 minutes to find the original and play it OR b)S and D applies.

 

Either way the player who hit the bad shot gets penalized and the burden is not on the opponent to find anything.

Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then abandon thy search for thy ball, who, being naughty hiding from my sight, shall snuff it.

 

Edit: Missing this last line here... You know it's not 5 minutes anymore, right? It's three.

Edited April 16 by Imp

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

IMO the rule should be you either a)have 5 minutes to find the original and play it OR b)S and D applies.

 

 

So you mean I must walk 250 yds to search for my original ball and if I cannot find it I will walk another 2 x 250 yds to invoke S&D?

 

Have you thought this through..? 🤔

[nikos74]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So you mean I must walk 250 yds to search for my original ball and if I cannot find it I will walk another 2 x 250 yds to invoke S&D?

 

Have you thought this through..? 🤔

You don't have to search for it.   You can simply play your 3rd shot from the tee box immediately by declaring it.

 

Or you can hope for a playable lie to save a stroke on the hole, in which case you would search for it.

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

You don't have to search for it.   You can simply play your 3rd shot from the tee box immediately by declaring it.

 

Or you can hope for a playable lie to save a stroke on the hole, in which case you would search for it.

So completely do away with the Provisional Ball, a concept which has been in the rules for more than 130 years?  

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

1) You don't have to search for it.   You can simply play your 3rd shot from the tee box immediately by declaring it.

 

2) Or you can hope for a playable lie to save a stroke on the hole, in which case you would search for it.

 

1) This is exactly how the Rule is today. Although you do not have to declare anything, you just hit another ball, that will automatically become your ball in play.

 

2) And then you  would return to the tee if you cannot find it, right? Makes wonders to pace of play 😂

 

 

 

Edited April 16 by Mr. Bean

[nikos74]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) This is exactly how the Rule is today. Although you do not have to declare anything, you just hit another ball, that will automatically become your ball in play.

 

2) And then you  would return to the tee if you cannot find it, right? Makes wonders to pace of play 😂

 

 

 

What motive does the player have to search for their ball in the weeds or trees if their provisional is on the fairway?  Only the opponent does if they are not shy about losing money or pride, hence the task falls upon them.

 

Disregarding POP, which I agree has importance, it should be up to the player hitting the bad shot to decide the least damaging course of action.

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

What motive does the player have to search for their ball in the weeds or trees if their provisional is on the fairway?  Only the opponent does if they are not shy about losing money or pride, hence the task falls upon them.

 

Disregarding POP, which I agree has importance, it should be up to the player hitting the bad shot to decide the least damaging course of action.

It is up to that player - when he is standing on the tee after his initial shot, he can choose to hit a provisional or to put another ball into play from there. 

Many players are reluctant to make that choice and to directly put another ball into play from the tee - they are hoping for a miracle wrt the original ball.

Edited April 16 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

What motive does the player have to search for their ball in the weeds or trees if their provisional is on the fairway?  Only the opponent does if they are not shy about losing money or pride, hence the task falls upon them.

 

 

I don't follow. You were the one suggesting dispensing with provisional in your post 3 hours ago. And as @rogolf suggested the original just might be in a playable spot, that is why those competitive rounds tend to be slow as every ball will be searched for, most of them full three minutes if not found sooner.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

What motive does the player have to search for their ball in the weeds or trees if their provisional is on the fairway?

 

Seriously ?

 

At least 1 shot, maybe 2.

 

Ever watch the pros on TV. They hit all manner of difficult shots from the weeds and trees onto the green and even sometimes make birdies from ridiculous places.

 

OK, none of us are pros (OK, a few are) but as others suggest, since you likely can't see where your stray ball is you may at least have a chance to chop it out into the fairway, maybe even further towards the green than where your provisional is and lie only 2, instead of 3.