What do you do to square the club face on downswing?

[MannJ]

How do you do it?
Do you have to be deliberate with this? 
Does the same motion apply to half wedge and pitch shots?

 

I am struggling with this. 
I have a flat back swing, closed clubface at top, and my arms get stuck on the downswing. I realized recently that I am essentially flipping. I can play decent golf like this (8 to 12 hcp) but I want to do better, and be more consistent. 
 

I have recently tried pulling the handle towards my trail leg in/after transition and realized what I was missing. I am making stronger contact and flight at a higher trajectory. I think it’s the first time I have actually felt the mass of the club behind my hands into impact BUT the club face is still a bit erratic like that. 
 

I think I need a deliberate arm move in transition to both get my arms in front of me and get the clubface square so I can just turn into the ball. 
 

So, hoping to find something of a consensus. 
What do you do?
 

[Ri_Redneck]

The release is the result of proper swing sequencing. There should be no conscious manipulation to cause it. What you are doing that is inhibiting your success must be seen to be diagnosed. Please post DTL (Down The Line) and face-on videos so we have a place to start. Multiple swings in each video wouldn't hurt either.

 

BT

[MannJ]

This is where I was at yesterday with it, trying to pull the handle down in downswing to keep the club in front of me. 

[MannJ]

This is where I was at yesterday with it, trying to pull the handle down in downswing to keep the club in front of me. 
 

So no one consciously tries to square the club face, or keep club in position?

[Nard_S]

Like swing, very Hogan-esque.

 

Lead hand weak a bit, might help to slightly strengthen.

 

Something that might help, rotate knuckles more downward (more of a forearm rotation) at P6, has done me a lot of good, ymmv.

 

 

[Justsomeguy]

I don't see much wrong there. Definitely not a coach or anything, but if I saw you out there it's definitely a competent swing.

I went from lots of fadey spinny balls to draw or sometimes hook through making damned sure my face was either neutral or slightly closed at address. I'd never had a good sight line on that part of the setup. At some point I got a good handle on it with a bit of grip change (ok so lots of things), and my whole game changed. Now I've got to practice an open face just to overcorrect away from my typical miss (straight pull or pull hook).

Ymmv.

[Ri_Redneck]

OP, do you have any sensation that you are "doing something" with your hands through contact. OR, are the hands just releasing on their own due to the swing?

 

BT

[me05501]

16 hours ago, MannJ said:

This is where I was at yesterday with it, trying to pull the handle down in downswing to keep the club in front of me. 
 

So no one consciously tries to square the club face, or keep club in position?

 

 

There are plenty of people out there teaching that a conscious closing of the face is normal and should happen in every swing. You'll read about the "reverse motorcycle move" and similar. Essentially it's an intentional flexing of the lead wrist slightly before or after transition. Tyler Ferrell is a big proponent of this. 

 

I could never get that move to work for me with consistency. My brain associates that move with pulling on the handle and it seems to wreck my timing. I don't blame the instructors but I realized it's not the right fit for me. 

 

There are other pros teaching a swing that relies on maintaining connection between the torso and arms. The general idea is that if you don't let your arms drift away from your body's turn you won't need to re-synch them or manipulate the path or face angle to square it up. Adam Porzak is a great example of this. 

 

This way of thinking suits me better. It feels simpler and more repeatable and causes me to focus most on making a good turn of my ribcage/core to power the swing. IMO the hands aren't passive but they move mostly in reaction to the weight of the club moving through space. 

[MannJ]

4 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

OP, do you have any sensation that you are "doing something" with your hands through contact. OR, are the hands just releasing on their own due to the swing?

 

BT

At times, but not regularly, I feel a rapid twist of my left wrist. It’s like the position I have my hands in near impact has held to its end and the rotation of my arms make my hand quickly unhinge or turn over. 
Normally in the past I never purposely feel like I’m doing anything with my hands and have no sensation of them doing anything. 

[MannJ]

5 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

 

There are plenty of people out there teaching that a conscious closing of the face is normal and should happen in every swing. You'll read about the "reverse motorcycle move" and similar. Essentially it's an intentional flexing of the lead wrist slightly before or after transition. Tyler Ferrell is a big proponent of this. 

 

I could never get that move to work for me with consistency. My brain associates that move with pulling on the handle and it seems to wreck my timing. I don't blame the instructors but I realized it's not the right fit for me. 

 

There are other pros teaching a swing that relies on maintaining connection between the torso and arms. The general idea is that if you don't let your arms drift away from your body's turn you won't need to re-synch them or manipulate the path or face angle to square it up. Adam Porzak is a great example of this. 

 

This way of thinking suits me better. It feels simpler and more repeatable and causes me to focus most on making a good turn of my ribcage/core to power the swing. IMO the hands aren't passive but they move mostly in reaction to the weight of the club moving through space. 

I was actually working on this very thing yesterday evening. Keeping arms connected and in front of me. I generated really crisp contact with this. It did feel like I lost club head speed but I won’t know until I get to the range. Not really worried about that aspect of it too much. 
If you will, take a look at this in compassion to the previous video and see what you think, in terms of what might be problematic 

[KMeloney]

With that flat of a backswing, you look to me like you could use some "tumble"/"Malaska move" into the ball. Might be worth trying out.

[me05501]

25 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I was actually working on this very thing yesterday evening. Keeping arms connected and in front of me. I generated really crisp contact with this. It did feel like I lost club head speed but I won’t know until I get to the range. Not really worried about that aspect of it too much. 
If you will, take a look at this in compassion to the previous video and see what you think, in terms of what might be problematic.

 

 

I'm not qualified to do that! 

 

There's a ton of helpful information on Porzak's youtube channel if you wanna learn more about that method.

 

I think I've heard Adam say that nailing the setup and takeaway can determine around 80% of the outcome of a shot (assuming you don't introduce any manipulations after that). Beyond that point you just focus on turning in balance. It makes way more sense to me than trying to do anything with my hands at a specific and critical moment. 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

I was actually working on this very thing yesterday evening. Keeping arms connected and in front of me. I generated really crisp contact with this. It did feel like I lost club head speed but I won’t know until I get to the range. Not really worried about that aspect of it too much. 
If you will, take a look at this in compassion to the previous video and see what you think, in terms of what might be problematic 

There’s no wrist hinge in either of the two videos.

 

 

[third-times-a-charm]

I use the "Jesus take the wheel" approach.

[MannJ]

45 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

There’s no wrist hinge in either of the two videos.

 

 

I know. I’m not sure when or how I have ingrained the late/no hinge into my swing. Probably from when I was a kid. I have tried hinging earlier, and it still looks the same. I am not sure as is it is hurting me any, so I haven’t stressed about it too much. 

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I know. I’m not sure when or how I have ingrained the late/no hinge into my swing. Probably from when I was a kid. I have tried hinging earlier, and it still looks the same. I am not sure as is it is hurting me any, so I haven’t stressed about it too much. 

It keeps your swing flat and combined with the right hip moving forward in the doesn’t aren’t really helping you out.

 

to me looking through some your other threads there really isn’t much change in your swing 

[GungHoGolf]

I consciously start flexing my lead wrist in transition (“motorcycle move”) while doing the NTC Cast A, and feel like I keep flexing it as much as I can through impact (doesn’t stay in flexion, but that’s my feel). I also feel left forearm supination from P6-P8.

 

After a few years of doing this, I don’t have to think much about it, of course, but early on it in the learning curve it was a very deliberate move. It was the cure for my OTT flippy swing I had when getting serious about golf later in life.

[MannJ]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

It keeps your swing flat and combined with the right hip moving forward in the doesn’t aren’t really helping you out.

 

to me looking through some your other threads there really isn’t much change in your swing 

I have noticed it doesn’t look near as different as it feels. It’s not much different for sure. The book is pretty old so I’m not really trying to totally re-write it. Just a little editing hopefully 

[Righty to Lefty]

The club face will square itself if you are in the right location to the ball.  By that I mean if your upper body as getting deep as it possibly can in the down swing you have no choice but to release the clubhead through impact and this should become very reliable over time.  The hard part is making the adjustments as you fatigue during a given round of golf or practice session.  You have to monitor every shot that you hit and measure that against what you expected to happen then adjust accordingly.  Not even swing robots with their perfect swing motion manages the club face perfectly but you have to try and come as close as you can while realizing that there is only one point along your swing arc that will match your intentions and the ball must be present at that location.  You should be assessing very closely the start direction of every shot that you hit, but also don't try manipulate the face, rather try to see your club in slow motion entering impact and see it striking the ball just prior to your club face squaring to your target while just letting you swing motion happen.  Am I making sense? 

[wagolfer7]

Here's my 2 cents.  There's a few different issues.  But I think overall intent needs to change.  Eventually you need to let the arms / shoulders go.  If you just turn everything together, your going to get the arms late and you start tilting away from the target too much.  You need some width.  

 

Your finish really tells the story.  Arms completely collapsed.  Arms just going along for the ride.  

 

      

 

Coming through impact you can see that if you don't let your arms go, your body will start tilting away from target to allow you to reach the ball. 

 

Few things to try and help get the right feel.

 

#1) Pause drill.  Pause at the top and fire those arms down.  

#2) Medicine Ball Toss - through the ball towards the target.  Makes you feel the arms / shoulders extend to the target.

#3) Club Throwing - throw club towards the target.  Yes literally throw it.  Same feel idea as #2.  

 

 

[MannJ]

17 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The club face will square itself if you are in the right location to the ball.  By that I mean if your upper body as getting deep as it possibly can in the down swing you have no choice but to release the clubhead through impact and this should become very reliable over time.  The hard part is making the adjustments as you fatigue during a given round of golf or practice session.  You have to monitor every shot that you hit and measure that against what you expected to happen then adjust accordingly.  Not even swing robots with their perfect swing motion manages the club face perfectly but you have to try and come as close as you can while realizing that there is only one point along your swing arc that will match your intentions and the ball must be present at that location.  You should be assessing very closely the start direction of every shot that you hit, but also don't try manipulate the face, rather try to see your club in slow motion entering impact and see it striking the ball just prior to your club face squaring to your target while just letting you swing motion happen.  Am I making sense? 

Yes. It sounds like a visual description of feel. 
one question though, you said getting your upper body as deep as possible. I assume you mean basically keeping your hips back away from the ball as far as possible? If not please explain. If so please elaborate. 
Keeping my hips from moving towards the ball has been impossible in an effort by itself. I don’t know how to create upper body depth

[Ri_Redneck]

4 hours ago, MannJ said:

At times, but not regularly, I feel a rapid twist of my left wrist. It’s like the position I have my hands in near impact has held to its end and the rotation of my arms make my hand quickly unhinge or turn over. 
Normally in the past I never purposely feel like I’m doing anything with my hands and have no sensation of them doing anything. 

In your face on video, I notice that your grip is fairly neutral (not strong). I generally see players with that type of grip shallow some during transition to help with the release. I don't see any shallowing going on in either of your DTL videos Looks more "1 Plane swingish"). That may be why you feel you're needing to make a move to get the club square.

 

I use a 1 Plane swing also, but have a fairly strong grip. That allows me to let my swing square the clubface. Just curious, if you hit a ball and just let your hands do what they will, what is the ball flight? If it's a push fade/slice, then you may benefit from a bit stronger left hand position.

 

BT

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

Yes. It sounds like a visual description of feel. 
one question though, you said getting your upper body as deep as possible. I assume you mean basically keeping your hips back away from the ball as far as possible? If not please explain. If so please elaborate. 
Keeping my hips from moving towards the ball has been impossible in an effort by itself. I don’t know how to create upper body depth

This is a video that I made for a friend a few days ago that hopefully explains things more clearly. I think the best way to get deeper into the swing is through physical fitness and stretching.  Let me know if you have any further questions.  R to L

[GoGoErky]

3 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a video that I made for a friend a few days ago that hopefully explains things more clearly. I think the best way to get deeper into the swing is through physical fitness and stretching.  Let me know if you have any further questions.  R to L

Or he could work on proper pressure shifting and getting the hips wit work properly while hinging the wrist early in the takeaway, none of which require any physical fitness training. 
 

His issue is technique not fitness

[nikos74]

Seems to me that you are sliding a bit and that is causing your rotation to stall out.  When that happens subconsciously it throws the timing of the release off.  Delay your weight shift a bit and focus on doing a pressure shift to the lead side first.

[MonteScheinblum]

The biggest issue in this swing by a wide margin is the Uber slow backswing.  It is completely throwing off the sequencing of the transition.  Leading to lower club head speed and loss of face and path.  I synced up the swing with Ernie Els.  If you’re just reaching the top of the swing and the Big Easy is basically don’t with his swing, slow smooth tempo disease is the diagnosis.  It’s a pandemic I see multiple times per week.  You only have two choices when your backswing is Uber slow.  Come down slow, have a poor transition…..and dreaded door #3 both.  Need to get a metronome, tour tempo app or go with Nike drill until backswing matches that of a good player.

 

Side note, you don’t want the club in front of you.  You want your arms not behind you and the club to be as far behind you as you can physically accomplish the right way.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

Or he could work on proper pressure shifting and getting the hips wit work properly while hinging the wrist early in the takeaway, none of which require any physical fitness training. 
 

His issue is technique not fitness

Hey man...do the splits....like right now...I mean your body will just do what you say it will let you tell it. Oh you aren't currently capable of doing the splits and would have to work up to it...well a golf swing is no different.  And your suggestion about basically disregarding physical fitness is just flat out silly because the fact that you gloss over and act like me saying to the athlete to make their body as capable as possible along the way as if it is bad advice is ridiculous.  Yeah sure just tell your hips to do something they aren't likely capable of doing at the moment and hurt yourself.  "Hinge your wrists early in the takeaway".....what...do you think about precisely when your tibialis anterior muscle flexes when you walk...of course you don't, unless you are injured? Golf is swinging a stick that happens to strike a ball at a fundamental level just like walking is basically leaning forward and catching yourself before you fall on your face. We are all terrible at it in the beginning but over time we get pretty good at our "walk motion," well a swing motion is no different.  Swing the stick, observe the resulting ball flight, and adjust your position in relation to the ball accordingly and retest.  Wrist angles or pressure shift are never mentioned to a child new to the game, and even if they were for some reason, the kid would have no clue what you are talking bout, yet here we are being told that it is the key to unlocking one's golf game as adults. Nevertheless OP I hope that my posts made you think and once again if you have any other questions of me let me know.  Take care. R to L

[MannJ]

3 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

In your face on video, I notice that your grip is fairly neutral (not strong). I generally see players with that type of grip shallow some during transition to help with the release. I don't see any shallowing going on in either of your DTL videos Looks more "1 Plane swingish"). That may be why you feel you're needing to make a move to get the club square.

 

I use a 1 Plane swing also, but have a fairly strong grip. That allows me to let my swing square the clubface. Just curious, if you hit a ball and just let your hands do what they will, what is the ball flight? If it's a push fade/slice, then you may benefit from a bit stronger left hand position.

 

BT

I will check out a stringer grip. Thanks

[MannJ]

49 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The biggest issue in this swing by a wide margin is the Uber slow backswing.  It is completely throwing off the sequencing of the transition.  Leading to lower club head speed and loss of face and path.  I synced up the swing with Ernie Els.  If you’re just reaching the top of the swing and the Big Easy is basically don’t with his swing, slow smooth tempo disease is the diagnosis.  It’s a pandemic I see multiple times per week.  You only have two choices when your backswing is Uber slow.  Come down slow, have a poor transition…..and dreaded door #3 both.  Need to get a metronome, tour tempo app or go with Nike drill until backswing matches that of a good player.

 

Side note, you don’t want the club in front of you.  You want your arms not behind you and the club to be as far behind you as you can physically accomplish the right way.

Monte, should I just try to quicken my BS? My swing speed, or clubhead speed is not necessarily slow. My driver speed is 104. So not super fast but I’m 45 and weigh about 150. My point being I feel like I’m getting decent distance. But I get my tempo being slow throwing off my sequence so could you suggest how to improve that?

[MonteScheinblum]

Yes you have to quicken your backswing if you want to hit the ball better.