Are golf rules always good?

[JustCurious]

Today at The 3 Irish Open

Golf rules are always good?

Read what happened to Italian Francesco Molinari at The 3 Irish Open today, after breaking the course record yesterday with an outstanding 63....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8509203


.....Molinari's marker, Peter Hanson, accidentally transposed the Italian's scores on the 12th and 13th holes.
Molinari had a four-putt double-bogey on the 12th but signed for a par four. He then signed for the double-bogey on the 13th which he had parred.

[jaskanski]

Not the rules fault is it? A lesson learned for Mr. Molinari. I bet he doesn't sign many contract agreements without checking the small print - why make the same mistake on a card?

In short, rules are rules and they're always good.

[arkstorm]

Not the rules fault is it? A lesson learned for Mr. Molinari. I bet he doesn't sign many contract agreements without checking the small print - why make the same mistake on a card?

In short, rules are rules and they're always good.

 

Rules are rules and they're always good? Rules are changed all the time. I think this rule is shortsighted, particularly in light of the fact that he signed for the correct overall score. It is an arcane rule whose time has gone.

[dabdias]

One question, what would happen if the two players disagreed on the scores? Is there anyone else keeping score? Can you use TV to untie?

[Matt727]

Happened to me before, sucks... now every time I play a tournament I check hole-by-hole 3 times haha...learned that lesson

[JustCurious]

Yes, you're right, but I was suggesting a different consideration.

 

In this case the score for the round was the same, simply two holes inverted by the marker, without any advantage for the player.

And he was two off the leader.

 

Don't you think that's too much to be disqualified for situations like this?

 

I know that somebody in the past has lost a major for something similar, but wouldn't be more fair to give the player a second chance to correct his mistake, instead of disqualifying him?

[CMUgol4]

For professional tournaments there should be a professional person for recording the scores....not a volunteer, but still retain the score bearer.

 

Where these guys make a living week to week there's no need for having a paycheck taken away for a wrong card (with no ill intent)...not needed in this day and age. It just seems a little too traditional now.

[SadTrombone]

In tournament golf, you don't sign for nor are you responsible to add up an 18 hole score. You sign for the score you made on each of the 18 holes. The committee is responsible for adding the numbers up, not the player. Signing for a 63 doesn't matter at all. He signed for other than what he actually made and was penalized appropriately.

 

-mini

[larrybud]

IMO, it's an archaic rule for professional golf.

 

Could you imagine: "The New York Giants have been disqualified from the Superbowl for their winning score of 26 when they forgot about the missed extra point and signed for a 27."

 

Put it towards other sports and it is silly.

[yoonie]

IMO, it's an archaic rule for professional golf.

 

Could you imagine: "The New York Giants have been disqualified from the Superbowl for their winning score of 26 when they forgot about the missed extra point and signed for a 27."

 

Put it towards other sports and it is silly.

 

On the other hand, can you remember (or even imagine) an occasion when an NFL team fails to tabulate its score correctly? Tom Coughlin not noticing when 2 point go up instead of 3 for a field goal? When the point of the game is scoring and you're not keeping good track of your own, you deserve what you get. I don't see why the PGA doesn't simply have official scorekeepers though, just for simplicity.

[D'KRUSHER]

IMO, it's an archaic rule for professional golf.

 

Could you imagine: "The New York Giants have been disqualified from the Superbowl for their winning score of 26 when they forgot about the missed extra point and signed for a 27."

 

Put it towards other sports and it is silly.

 

On the other hand, can you remember (or even imagine) an occasion when an NFL team fails to tabulate its score correctly? Tom Coughlin not noticing when 2 point go up instead of 3 for a field goal? When the point of the game is scoring and you're not keeping good track of your own, you deserve what you get. I don't see why the PGA doesn't simply have official scorekeepers though, just for simplicity.

====================

Cant screw up Tennis.

Cant Screw up all the other individual sports in Competition.

 

Gosh, Look at Auto Racing.. and the use of Technology there in saying who has the Pole, who Won..it's now down to 1/100 ( maybe 1/1000 ) of a second..and Tech helps all race long- who came out of pits first etc..

 

Golf-Purely the Tracking Score, not any other rules..., this Archaic rule should be changed- & that guy Vincenzo whom at the Masters should have won, he should have been given a Green Jacket, IMO.

 

As discussued before- the hyper TV coverage, any wobble of the ball, rules infraction, all "caught" in todays game..so more penalties for today's players. This change will giv'em a bit breathing room, IMO. Play Ball- Let the Best Player Win !

[yoonie]

Why can't you screw up scoring tennis(because the athlete would notice if the official was mis-scoring the game)? Why not any other competitive individual sports? As a former archer, I can tell you there's at LEAST one sport where it's possible to mess up scoring.

 

As for auto racing, is there any conceivable way for a racer to keep his own time? Your analogy is terribly...well, unanalagous.

[mat562]

In tournament golf, you don't sign for nor are you responsible to add up an 18 hole score. You sign for the score you made on each of the 18 holes. The committee is responsible for adding the numbers up, not the player. Signing for a 63 doesn't matter at all. He signed for other than what he actually made and was penalized appropriately.

 

-mini

 

The textbook answer.

 

I know this - even as someone who's never played professionally. For a tournament professional to not know it - or to not expend sufficient effort to check that he was signing for the correct set of scores - is simply a goof on the player's part. It's unfortunate, tragic, call it what you like, but any way you distill it, it's his own fault. However much sympathy and outrage you can muster, it's ultimately a very simple rule that's really quite easy to not fall foul of if you simply take the time and effort to properly check a card after the round. I've never signed for an incorrect score in my life, because I've always had it drilled into me that a round of competitive golf isn't over until you've checked your card sufficiently well that it precludes any chance of there being a ****-up; and then made sure you've signed it.

 

It's an old fashioned rule, certainly. Probably a bit anachronistic. But, it has the advantage of being really quite simple, easy to follow, and totally unambiguous; so it very effectively removes any grey areas and gives every man jack in the field an agreed set of rules to abide by when it comes to marking and checking the scores properly and a standard penalty when they don't.

 

It's not a rule that needs changing. It's one that needs some attention paid to it.

[D'KRUSHER]

Why can't you screw up scoring tennis(because the athlete would notice if the official was mis-scoring the game)? Why not any other competitive individual sports? As a former archer, I can tell you there's at LEAST one sport where it's possible to mess up scoring.

 

As for auto racing, is there any conceivable way for a racer to keep his own time? Your analogy is terribly...well, unanalagous.

 

=====

In Tennis.. I have never known the Player to get disqualified for scoring a wrong score.

 

In Racing, dont you think there was a wrong decisions made back in the day whom was on the Pole, or whom won ? Auto Racing today- unless the stuff malfunctions.. no way to give someone a wrong victory or Pole.

Yup, the driver's not "scoring" but this example shows how in the advance of tech, using the tech. its better for comp, IMO.

Also, I bet that when they started racing...early 1900's- they guy did eyeball themselves.. and decided amongst themselves whom won.

An honest mistake, a scorecard sign in the wrong area, a score marked HIGHER than actual on a hole...all these should be rid'of.

 

Interestingly, if I remember right - 5 yrs ago- Paddy was winning a Euro event, ahead by 5, on his way to the course record.. and signed a higher than actual score. Paddy was D-Q'd.

[youngwaldo]

Put in a higher score for the hole, the score stands. Put a lower score for the hole , DQ. Rules are there for a reason, I don't think all of them are fair but if you want to play the game play by the rules.

 

Wk

[SNIPERBBB]

Here is a simple solution..give each player their own scorecard or their caddies so if the scorecard is screwed up its their own fault. If not, they better start keeping track of their scores in their yardage books during their round(or snatch a few scorecards from the pro shop). I know what score I have at the end of the round all the time but I can often forget what happened from one hole to the next..especially after a trainwreck hole.

[ssp]

A bit harsh in my opinion. I would not want to win in this situation. Seems like a technicality and the best player did not win for that tourney (although not done... you get my point).

 

If I recall ... one of the orginal rules in golf... do what is fair. I don't see a DQ for this type of scorecard mistake as Fair.

 

Anybody remember the Stadler putting down the towel to keep his pants clean while he kneeled to hit that shot? Building his stance?....please.

[iloverickystevekarl]

Rule will change soon. There is too much money at stake nowadays and it constantly drags golf backwards. They should at least allow a grace period where the golfer can rectify a mistake if it is picked up.

[mat562]

It's always the player's fault if the scorcard is screwed up. Simple as that.

 

The fact that someone else marks the card that is ultimately submitted is immaterial. The player themselves keep a tally of their score, which is intended to be checked alongside the other card. The fact that they mark their own scores means that they have their own record that can subsequently be compared with that of their playing partner and scorer. It's a foolproof method that, if carried out correctly, means that there's a quick and convenient way to challenge any discrepancies and ensure that they are corrected before the tournament card is signed and submitted - and only when all parties are happy that it's correct.

 

Having a card marked by an opponent is a time-honoured way of adding a measure of transparency to the scoring system. It's been the way of things in both amateur and professional golf for decades and, if it's done properly, it quite literally is foolproof. Not all tournaments, even at professional level, have the facility for an on-course marker to be present with every group and there really is no reason to change a system that works because of the odd mistake that, if the players are honest (as Harrington was in the aftermath of his relatively recent mistake), is entirely down to them and inattention or a lack of care on their part.

 

Checking a card properly takes less than a couple of minutes. It doesn't require any special skills, the ability to be multilingual or anything out of the ordinary with regard to intelligence or mathematical ability. Do it however you like, but ultimately you need to make sure that eighteen numbers in eighteen corresponding boxes are correct. You don't even need to add them up. Nor are you penalised if you do add them up and make a goof. It's not quite something that a monkey could do, but it's close. All those that are clamoring for an alternative; what do you propose? There really isn't a simpler or more transparent method that effectively takes account of the fluid nature of scoring than the one we've already got. It doesn't need to be changed. If there's a mistake, in every case it's because the player has dropped a clanger - not because the system's outdated or impractical.

[seena_beena]

i agree with Mat

[HeadonaStick]

If you can't add you should quit and go back to school... if you can add then check your card. How hard is that?

[RichB]

Uhh...

 

How does one transpose two scores if he is keeping the card as they play?

Shouldn't he be marking the score after immediate completion of the hole?

Not a good practice to mark scores *a coupla holes later*.

[stage1350]

For everyone complaining about the scorecard issue, I don't hear anyone talking about the 15th club.

 

It's a mistake too, right? Why should he suffer too, right?

 

It's simple. The rules are in place and you have to follow them, lest you get disqualified. Doesn't matter if it's a "small" rule or a big rule.

[DaveLeeNC]

The PGA Tour really needs to revisit this. Having somebody else keep your score (when the LAST thing on that person's mind is your play) is just asking for trouble.

 

Assume that Arnie is in the junk on the left next to a clump of something and getting a ruling from an official regarding relief. Jack is in a similar mess on the other side of the course. The ONLY way to implement this 'keep the other guys score' thing is to require Jack to stay with Arnie, participate in the ruling/drop (or whatever), watch the stroke or strokes taken, and then both trudge over to the other side of the course and repeat the whole process.

 

This doesn't happen and I assume that when Jack (for example) records Arnie's score on this hole he asks Arnie what happened. The alternative would be for Jack has to run down the official that was there and ask him. The process really makes no sense in a PGA Tour event.

 

dave

[golfismygame]

The Rule on a legal scorecard is very, very simple - especially for the pro's.

 

18 scores, a signature, and the markers signature.

Nothing more is required for a card to be legal.

No date, no name, no points, no math, no handicap.

 

They do this for a living....and they still get it wrong!! :blink:

[Freddie Klien]

I agree its not difficult to check 18 numbers in the correct sequence, he doesn't even have to add them up. Lets not forget he had a really good score here, how many times do you all check your cards when you put in a good score I must check mine at least ten times.

 

He deserves all that he gets maybe it will teach him to check his scores properly

[Bomb and Gouge]

A scorecard error like that is a result of laziness! No excuse in this situation- IMO

 

I've had markers screw things up but we catch it when we go over the scores after the round. It takes about two minutes to go over both cards!

[DaveLeeNC]

Just because a rule is easy to follow doesn't mean that it is a good rule. And this one makes no sense in the context of PGA Tour golf. Some examples.

 

1) I once followed Retief Goosen in an early round of a TPC event a number of years ago. There was a gal also following him who was built better than your typical Hooters waitress but not wearing as much clothing. He had no idea that she was around - just like he had no idea what the heck his competitors was doing (even though he was responsible for 'scoring' for one of them.

 

2) Ben Hogan was famous for not having a clue as to what was happening to the others in his group ( in stroke play)

 

3) When competitor A disappears into the woods you will virtually NEVER see 'his marker' follow him. His marker has no clue as to what is going on.

 

There are typically hundreds to many thousands of people watching players hit the ball. There is only ONE person with both the incentive to "get it wrong" (although I will admit that this has probably never happened intentionally) and has a role in the competition (like playing golf) which is actually compromised by paying careful attention to the competitor - and that is the person that is responsible for recording the score. Of course the person responsible for recording the score has ZERO accountability for doing it correctly.

 

Multi-million dollar purses on the line and this is how it is managed. This is not sensible (even if it is theoretically 'easy' to do).

 

dave

[krustyburger]

Just because a rule is easy to follow doesn't mean that it is a good rule. And this one makes no sense in the context of PGA Tour golf. Some examples.

 

1) I once followed Retief Goosen in an early round of a TPC event a number of years ago. There was a gal also following him who was built better than your typical Hooters waitress but not wearing as much clothing. He had no idea that she was around - just like he had no idea what the heck his competitors was doing (even though he was responsible for 'scoring' for one of them.

 

2) Ben Hogan was famous for not having a clue as to what was happening to the others in his group ( in stroke play)

 

3) When competitor A disappears into the woods you will virtually NEVER see 'his marker' follow him. His marker has no clue as to what is going on.

 

There are typically hundreds to many thousands of people watching players hit the ball. There is only ONE person with both the incentive to "get it wrong" (although I will admit that this has probably never happened intentionally) and has a role in the competition (like playing golf) which is actually compromised by paying careful attention to the competitor - and that is the person that is responsible for recording the score. Of course the person responsible for recording the score has ZERO accountability for doing it correctly.

 

Multi-million dollar purses on the line and this is how it is managed. This is not sensible (even if it is theoretically 'easy' to do).

 

dave

 

You've given three good examples why every player should take the time to review the scores before they sign for them.

 

You make it sound like the marker's score is final. It's not, every player keeps their own score, and it isn't too difficult to make sure the marker's scores are the same as your own. In fact it's really quite simple. I'm pretty sure a five-year old could do it.

[EasyDDI]

Hi guys!

 

I understand this rule can sound harsh especially in Molinari's situation. I can understand that it looks really unfair when it brings you no advantage. However golf is about responsibility. It is one of the pillars supporting the game. This is the only game that I know of where you can call a penalty upon yourself.

 

If any of you is any familiar with biggest sport on earth: football (soccer for the Americans), a multi-billion dollars sport, they know that in this sport, both players and management have forgone responsibility: they all blame the referee and try to cheat him and his team at every opportunity. You can have the most despicable imaginable behaviour with players and management alike throwing fits at the smallest real or imaginary mistake not going their way done by the referee. They loose, it is the referee's fault with constant criticism of the professionalism of the referees or not so subtle hints that they are corrupted. This is what is happening when responsibility is forgone by the most important actors of the sport, the players themselves. Now imagine a football player admitting to a foul, that'll be the day!

 

As the Romans would put it: dura lex, sed lex (Molinari should know that better than most :-)). It the end, rules are supporting the integrity of the game.

 

Cheers,

Easy