Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[bbeard10]

I joined GolfWRX sometime back when I was in bed for about six weeks recovering from surgery. I had read that it was a fun site and a much more positive site than another site called Bombsquad. And I had a lot of fun reading GolfWRX while I was healing. Later I joined BombSquad and found that it was really not all that negative of a site. Just recently I joined The Cameron Collector and have really had a blast leaning about the various Scotty Cameron putters, headcovers, etc. All and all I have had a really great experience learning from all three sites more about golf and golf clubs than I ever imagined......until this evening. Specifically, I came across this thread regarding a Cameron putter called the "Mini", and as I read this thread, I have concluded that I have never read more vicious and vindictive, and downright hateful comments made by a number of GolfWRX members. Until tonight, I thought this was a fun loving and relaxed site that operated in the spirit of the game and the gentlemen who play it. Not anymore. I am very disappointed in all of you who have posted such negative comments in this thread about fellow golfers. You should be ashamed. If golf is a gentleman's game, then a number of you on this thread don't need to be playing it.

 

This is well and good but honestly I felt like I got home late one night and my mom was waiting for me in my bedroom or something. Like previously said, it's a golf forum and there is little nostalgia to be had. Glad you decided to post for the first time though.

 

And Stage, that was well put, you are the voice of reason for sure.

[stage1350]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

AM&E would never make it. Since the letters aren't perfectly straight, they could be considered "dancing." And nobody else is allowed to use dancing letters.

 

Ironically, someone can copy a WRX putter cover and sell it with no problem from AM&E. Again, the dollar has spoken... :rolleyes:

[Six Pints]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

 

 

AWESOME IDEA!!

I'd buy one. Since it was your idea you can have 1/5...

[Ed Settle]

OUCH! Thanks for throwing me under the bus, backing up, and running me over, blowing me up, flaming and torching me, all to make a point, on what would be ridiculous, IF you had done it. Thanks!

 

-Dave (married to my high school sweetheart with three wonderful kids)! Billings. LOL!

 

 

Sorry Dave, PM me and I'll buy one of your Anser copies.

 

Sorry, Biscuity, but I don't make anser copies! But, please do PM me if you are interested in a MACHINE! There are literally millions of unique custom options and combinations that you just can't get with any old copy, or even an original anser2 (or a newport2).....

 

Cheers,

 

-Dave

 

 

WOW.

 

Dave, I applaud you for taking the high road. Well played. :good:

 

+2 This thread has a life of it's own. The information revealed has been eye opening.

Unfortunantly there have been some innocent victims.

 

Dave, you make beautiful putters. Sorry you got dragged it to this. Good Luck.

[wentorf11]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

 

 

AWESOME IDEA!!

I'd buy one. Since it was your idea you can have 1/5...

 

I think that all of the headcovers would need to have the avatar on one side and 1/5 on the other, every head cover 1/5...lol

[psygolf]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

AM&E would never make it. Since the letters aren't perfectly straight, they could be considered "dancing." And nobody else is allowed to use dancing letters.

 

Ironically, someone can copy a WRX putter cover and sell it with no problem from AM&E. Again, the dollar has spoken... :rolleyes:

+1 *NO CHANCE that would be made by them now. Maybe it's time am&e had some competition...how hard would it to figure out the machines & grade of leather they use to make their headcovers, someone needs to "knock-off" -sorry, I mean "pay homage" to their designs. Seems fair...

[Bucken77]

Mr. Billings that was me who posted in this thread about saving for a Machine and how you have handled yourself in this thread has made it a certainty that I will be getting one.

[MrParr1Noid]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

 

 

AWESOME IDEA!!

I'd buy one. Since it was your idea you can have 1/5...

 

We're sorry but the "5th" seems to have been misplaced. :wave:

[psygolf]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

 

 

AWESOME IDEA!!

I'd buy one. Since it was your idea you can have 1/5...

 

We're sorry but the "5th" seems to have been misplaced. :wave:

If a headcover is made, maybe the dude could show one finger (the middle one) on one hand, and five fingers on the other to signify how he feels about the 1/5

[Arafel]

I also wanted to added that if it isn't already foregasim's avatar neededs to be made into a head cover...

 

 

 

 

:good:

 

 

 

AWESOME IDEA!!

I'd buy one. Since it was your idea you can have 1/5...

 

We're sorry but the "5th" seems to have been misplaced. :wave:

If a headcover is made, maybe the dude could show one finger (the middle one) on one hand, and five fingers on the o

ther to signify how he feels about the 1/5

 

How about this? Take a quick look because I'll be taking it down shortly. :tongue: :cheesy:

[shawnee]

thanks Stage for keeping it real man...

[biscuity]

Jay, I own original Bullseye putters with no flange. I was under the impression that John Reuter did the original non-flanged versions and TP helped design the flanged version. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

Mr. Biscuity,

 

I hate to inform you, that your distaste for Mills putters has been compromised.

 

I'm not really interested in TP Mills, Bettinardi, Sunset Beach, Byron. I own several Pings, maybe I should post in there? I have an original Zebra from the 70's, a few Wilson 8813, and a few original Reuter Bullseyes,

 

 

T.P. was one of the designers of the Bullseye.

 

 

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Co.

[Jesperday]

Foregasim-

 

Couple questions or thoughts:

 

1.) What is Bob's side about the mini? That he presented it to Scotty/Scotty's wife when he found out they were having a child? After that, did Scotty order more to give to his close friends that were expecting? Did Bob decide to keep a couple after Scotty ordered some hence the one in his office?

 

2.) Why did Scotty and Bob part ways? Were they really that close or was Bob simply doing work for Scotty? Why would Scotty sue Bob when they parted ways? I just cant imagine sueing a FRIEND unless something big was at stake. I could imagine having to sue a business partner though.

 

3.)What was Scotty's relationship with Byron Morgan? How exactly did Byron "show him the ropes"? Probably good for a different topic but I'm interested.

 

I find all these pretty interesting and if anyone has any insight please post.

[finalist]

3.)What was Scotty's relationship with Byron Morgan? How exactly did Byron "show him the ropes"? Probably good for a different topic but I'm interested.

 

I do know Byron Morgan, John Ortega, and Donald Cameron were partners for a short time. They created the original internal hosel metal driver before Callaway. I've held one the drivers and I'll just say shaft technology has come a looong way! Cameron left... there's a whole story behind that.

 

Also Cameron worked for Ray Cook under Kia Ma for a period of time too. Cameron started off as a telephone sells person. That roll allowed Cameron to meet a lot of Pros and build a relationship which was very helpful down the road.

 

VERY early in Cameron's youth he worked for a VW repair shop. It was there while molding the putty or whatever the stuff is to fix dents that Cameron learned some hand skills.

 

 

 

Also there has been some responses to Byron being the first MINI anser style producer.

There is a Japanese magazine (Alba) with comic strip in where the main character's prize possession is a JohnByron DH-9

[Arafel]

3.)What was Scotty's relationship with Byron Morgan? How exactly did Byron "show him the ropes"? Probably good for a different topic but I'm interested.

 

I do know Byron Morgan, John Ortega, and Donald Cameron were partners for a short time. They created the original internal hosel metal driver before Callaway. I've held one the drivers and I'll just say shaft technology has come a looong way! Cameron left... there's a whole story behind that.

 

Also Cameron worked for Ray Cook under Kia Ma for a period of time too. Cameron started off as a telephone sells person. That roll allowed Cameron to meet a lot of Pros and build a relationship which was very helpful down the road.

 

VERY early in Cameron's youth he worked for a VW repair shop. It was there while molding the putty or whatever the stuff is to fix dents that Cameron learned some hand skills.

 

 

 

Also there has been some responses to Byron being the first MINI anser style producer.

There is a Japanese magazine (Alba) with comic strip in where the main character's prize possession is a JohnByron DH-9

 

 

These putter makers actually designed one of the most influential drivers in recent golf history? That does sound like another thread.

[finalist]

well yes and no. There were no patents I believe? Callaway created the success.

Also remember, These three guys were not soley puttermakers back then. This is decades ago and I know Byron has done everything from wedges, drivers, retail shops, shaping surf boards, building go-carts, etc. John Ortega was a local O.C. pro, and Donald was the younger guy who worked around all these guys. It's simply stunning when you hear how so many of the guys we think of as puttercraftsman all had ties to one another in the 1980s. Some were just metal finishers like Kia Ma while others were just line workers who got lucky (I'm not talking about Cameron or Byron). The 1980s southern California golf industry must have been quite an experience and at least a great part of golf history.

 

[hodges]

JR I wasn't going to post again but you made a statement that I agree with so wholeheartly that I find I must reply.

"It is sad where this thread has gone."

 

Amen brother, Amen, I agree with you 1,000%

 

Some people would say I pick on you, that I nit pick your posts pointing out inconsistencies. Well like I said before you are a fountain of information and if I see something I think is wrong I am going to tell you or anyone else. I don't believe anybody is bullet proof. Hell look at me, I posted bad info about Nick and had to admit it and apologize.

 

 

I still think the issue is in the details. Ordering "putters" and making enough putterheads to fill an order appears to have caused the situation that is confusing to some. The entire post where Mat references a conversation he had with Jim Butler is

"i know this is old but was at table rock today and got some good info on this putter, me and jim had a talk about classic putters, he told me 8 were made but only 5 were actually finished heads, rumors about some being destroyed he wasnt sure on. just bring back a great thread.

mat"

Jim comments confuse me to, looks like Bob's head is finished to me. I have never seen the other 2.

Maybe he meant 5 finished putters? Maybe he is just wrong and not a reliable source to quote

 

I posted this reply to Kevin on another site when he asked "the description on Scotty's website states "There were fewer than 5 of these putters produced before the merger with Titleist." I think that's where people, me included, get confused about the number. To many "fewer than 5" means either 1, 2, 3, or 4. And if there is one stamped "1/5" then how come the others aren't stamped 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5?" (I think you asked something like that here but I am too lazy to search back for the post :) )

I have thought about that statement for a few days and I think I finally understand it.

"There were fewer than 5 of these putters produced before the merger with Titleist."

If you define a putter as a golf club, and a golf club has a shaft and grip, maybe Scotty knows that the unaccounted for head was never made into a putter. He may not know where it is any longer, but he knows that he didn't make it into a putter. I lose track of things all the time and I bet Scotty has more things that I have. He might have stamped the first one 1 of 5 intending to turn all the heads into putters. But it looks like it didn't happen.

 

An explanation like this would seem to clear up the confusion with the website on why there is a "1 of 5" and why there are "fewer than 5 putters".

 

It satisfies my curiosity whether it works for anyone else or not.

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

So there is no confusion below is a full copy of my first post in this thread, the second post and reply to Nick's original post that started the thread. Unlike what Buscuit says, my comment about "Complete BS" was preceded by this quote from Nick "When Cameron requested the putter be made he ordered 5 of them." Nick has stated in his posts on this site that it was a fact that only 5 were made that were ordered by Cameron and went on to imply that Bettinardi manufactured additional unauthorized copies of the Mini. His comments in reference to this were "Complete BS" and that is not an opinion that is a fact.

 

Additional educational information was posted by me; some information known to many and some not; some of the information was easily verifiable and some was not and this was intentional. After the people demanded proof, sources, etc. I sat back and waited. Then the other side decided to start with their character assignation and the typical responses that are designed to direct an educational and informative topic into a thread comprised of personal insulting banter which then turns people off from reading the thread and learning about information that the other side does not want people to know.

 

After waiting I posted sources and third party verifiable "proof" that what I was saying was true. Not one person arguing that I had posted lies and was an evil anonymous person could refute anything I posted or contradict any of the information I posted other than by personal attacks and trying to divert the topic to something else, usually personal and negative.

 

If you all have not figured it out yet, Buscuit knows very little about the history of any putter makers, the history of putters, or the history of any of the internet fourms he posts about. The words he posts, and you can not say it is actually information because that would imply that it is informative and it is not, have nothing to do with what took place. He posts with the sole intention of ruffling feathers and causing others to respond in a negative and argumentative manner thereby derailing the original direction the thread was taking. The primary reason this thread has taken the turn it has is because of the posts made by Buscuit and that was his intention.

 

You will never see a post from me where I have made a comment about Cameron making a "Copy" improved or not, of someone else's original design, unless there is still a patent or trademark on the design or it is obvious that he is taking credit for his work as being his "original" work and his idea or design. Most putters and other stuff are based upon designs of others; patents expire for a reason and once they do it allows others to use that persons designs. How this thread has turned into a discussion of Cameron copying others designs is beyond me. That is an old and boring topic and does nothing to educate or inform anyone, it only starts arguments from guys like Buscuit that have nothing else to contribute.

 

It is sad where this thread has gone.

 

..... When Cameron requested the putter be made he ordered 5 of them.

 

Complete BS. In fact in a post on another site, Jim butler, perhaps the person closest to Scotty from the early days that is still connected stated that 8 were made. The story about 5 started when only 5 could be accounted for, in other words the Cameron experts could only determine where 5 of them were. When it came out that Bettinardi had one and that there were 2 more that could be accounted for, the Cameron experts then changed the story to insinuate that there were only 5 "authentic" Mini's that Bettinardi's and the others were some how not legit.

 

Bob Bettinardi and Scotty Cameron were friends and business partners. Bettinardi designed and manufactured the Mini and the first one was made as a gift for Scotty's wife when she was pregnant with their first child. Some of the others were then given to others as gifts.

 

Bettinardi is still making this head, it is the 3/4 BB-1. If Scotty designed and created this head shape do you not think he would have patented or trademarked the design and that he would be screaming bloody murder that Bettinardi has been making this head style for a couple of years?

 

By the way, the Mini head shape is very similar, but slightly different than the original Byron Morgan DH-9 and the current Mini DH-89 that Byron is making. Byron's head shape is a little more chunky and was made years before the Mini was made. Byron and Scotty were really good friends at one point and shared not only manufacturing space but ideas as Byron took Scotty under his wing in the late 80's and tutored him on the fine points of putter making and customization.

 

Nick it is posts like yours that show the true type of people that are connected to Cameron and that destroys any and all credibility of anything you guys post.

 

 

PS: None of the Classic series of putters from 1993 and 1994 originally came with plastic on the grip. Plastic was added after they were sold, mostly by the Japanese distributors and collectors. More than likely this putter originally was owned by a Japanese collector and then made its way to the States.

[Jesperday]

well yes and no. There were no patents I believe? Callaway created the success.

Also remember, These three guys were not soley puttermakers back then. This is decades ago and I know Byron has done everything from wedges, drivers, retail shops, shaping surf boards, building go-carts, etc. John Ortega was a local O.C. pro, and Donald was the younger guy who worked around all these guys. It's simply stunning when you hear how so many of the guys we think of as puttercraftsman all had ties to one another in the 1980s. Some were just metal finishers like Kia Ma while others were just line workers who got lucky (I'm not talking about Cameron or Byron). The 1980s southern California golf industry must have been quite an experience and at least a great part of golf history.

 

+1 Ryan! I think it would be awesome to start a History Thread for all of these guys. No bashing but simply for everyone to learn and appreciate these guys and what they went through! Its the history that makes me appreciate these putters as much as anything.

[texas-ex]

How does one get to "Scotty" from Donald T. Cameron?

[Jesperday]

Foregasim-

 

Couple questions or thoughts:

 

1.) What is Bob's side about the mini? That he presented it to Scotty/Scotty's wife when he found out they were having a child? After that, did Scotty order more to give to his close friends that were expecting? Did Bob decide to keep a couple after Scotty ordered some hence the one in his office?

 

2.) Why did Scotty and Bob part ways? Were they really that close or was Bob simply doing work for Scotty? Why would Scotty sue Bob when they parted ways? I just cant imagine sueing a FRIEND unless something big was at stake. I could imagine having to sue a business partner though.

 

3.)What was Scotty's relationship with Byron Morgan? How exactly did Byron "show him the ropes"? Probably good for a different topic but I'm interested.

 

I find all these pretty interesting and if anyone has any insight please post.

 

 

Anyone???

[ngrigsby]

I can't believe that this thread is still going...! 21 pgs?!!!

[markheardjr]

I posted on page 18 about the Mizuno putters Scotty took back and put X's across "Mizuno." I thought it was interesting history and I don't have all the story. I'm sure one of these legends of the flatstick can explain more for us.

[markheardjr]

To that new member...

:offtopic2:

 

For what it's worth... I am one of the original memebers on here, #141. I too joined here because BSG banned me for undeserved reasons. I found a great deal on Callawaypreownedgolf.com in the Pro Tour Spec section and passed the info along to other BSG folks. (I got a BB2 tour issue with a Matte Blue Diaman like 5 years ago when they were rarer than a 1/5 mini for only $199!) Todd "bighitter" deleted my post and said Callaway could had to pay for advertising. I responded with..."I'm sorry, I'm not affiliated with Callaway. I merely saw a good deal and wanted to pass it along to the members here." That got me banned for 2 weeks. Upon my return, low and behold...(Here's the good part....) Todd aka "bighitter" had some brand new Tour Issue Callaway stock to move. The same stuff I just posted about 2 weeks earlier. I called him out and got banned for life. well, I'm back on there only to see his BS from time to time, but under a different name.

 

To the new memeber that is turned off by this thread I say...FINALLY!!! Finally a website allows these things to get hashed out. Every other website would have shut this down long ago. GolfWRX founders, Richard and Ryan, are allowing this to go on. They pick and choose what to let go. BSG vs. GolfWRX threads have been let go for a while too. Honestly, BSG is only out to sell you their equipment. When's the last time you saw a thread on Mizuno there? Tourstage? Titleist? Been a while. They artificially and purposefully bump the threads of crap they have to sell. That's all they are. Even their B/S/T cost money to list in! GolfWRX isn't selling you anything. Yes they have banners for advertising, only to keep this site running, not for profit. They actively attempt to not align themselves with a particular company. Thankfully the industry acknowledes their efforts and we have free giveaways because of how great this site is! When's the last time BSG gave away something entirely for free? Been a while... I don't want to thread jack on that debate, but please...GolfWRX members enjoy far more freedom of speech than over at BSG. Try posting GolfWRX on BSG..."Nope" will be autofilled instead. That's just the start of their censorship. Censorship happens all over the web. Less here than other places. I suggest to the newbie's that they stick around here, they will get better info and with less bias than other places. Back on topic, sorry for the rant...

 

:ontopic:

[xxio]

I think you know I was kidding about the Anser comment. I wanted to say "Newport copy" but thought that might be too much. :)

 

I really like the look of your putters and the adjustability. I've checked out your web sites a few times and almost pulled the trigger when you were having the Fathers Day promotion. I've just never had one in my hand to try out the feel, otherwise I'd probably own one right now.

 

 

OUCH! Thanks for throwing me under the bus, backing up, and running me over, blowing me up, flaming and torching me, all to make a point, on what would be ridiculous, IF you had done it. Thanks!

 

-Dave (married to my high school sweetheart with three wonderful kids)! Billings. LOL!

 

 

Sorry Dave, PM me and I'll buy one of your Anser copies.

 

Sorry, Biscuity, but I don't make anser copies! But, please do PM me if you are interested in a MACHINE! There are literally millions of unique custom options and combinations that you just can't get with any old copy, or even an original anser2 (or a newport2).....

 

Cheers,

 

-Dave

 

 

Actually noone knew you were kidding. There was no indication. But so that there are no further misunderstanding as to intent.

 

There are these things called emoticons on the upper left side when you reply to a post that you can click on. When you click on an appropriate one the tone of your message changes. When you don't use one some remarks may be interpreted as being "snide" or personal attacks. A lot of the posts here could totally change tone if these were used.

 

Sometimes as well when you unintentionally forget to include that emoticon, you get called out on it, and you sincerely wish to convey your supposedly true feelings, the proper internet etiquette has been to apologize in the next post where you address that topic or in some other cases, which is what I hope happened here, is that a PM is sent the poster you have offended with a much more personal apology :)

[RookieBlue7]

He meant a sticker that says "made in China". Also the putters alluded to by Foregasim are in a different time frame from the ones you posted.

 

I'm not 100% but the controversial putters that were supposedly cast in Asia then shipped over to the US for stamping/engraving was the Studio Stainless or Style line and the Bullseye style heads? Anyone with shaft bands from those putters?

 

Which begs the question if a raw head is finished/engraved someplace else what would the "made in" be? I know the original TM300 heads had heads that were all Japan from start to finish (Made in Japan sticker), then some were forged in Japan but finished in Taiwan (Made in China stickers).

 

My understanding of the law, according to a documentary I watched a few months ago (on Discovery Channel or TLC, can't remember which) discussed the "Made in America" moniker and the change in it's meaning today. It basically said that as long as the final phase of the "production" was completed in America it could have the stamp on it, even if the majority of the manufacturing was done elsewhere. The funny thing about the whole report? At the end they were discussing it, and said that the American Flag is one of the most outsourced items for sale in America. The large companies outsource the labor of sewing and assembling it to China and the grommets on the flag, the last item assembled, were put in in here in America, and thus the "Made in America" patch was sewn on (also here, so it's actually the last step), and was perfectly legal.

[xxio]

He meant a sticker that says "made in China". Also the putters alluded to by Foregasim are in a different time frame from the ones you posted.

 

I'm not 100% but the controversial putters that were supposedly cast in Asia then shipped over to the US for stamping/engraving was the Studio Stainless or Style line and the Bullseye style heads? Anyone with shaft bands from those putters?

 

Which begs the question if a raw head is finished/engraved someplace else what would the "made in" be? I know the original TM300 heads had heads that were all Japan from start to finish (Made in Japan sticker), then some were forged in Japan but finished in Taiwan (Made in China stickers).

 

My understanding of the law, according to a documentary I watched a few months ago (on Discovery Channel or TLC, can't remember which) discussed the "Made in America" moniker and the change in it's meaning today. It basically said that as long as the final phase of the "production" was completed in America it could have the stamp on it, even if the majority of the manufacturing was done elsewhere. The funny thing about the whole report? At the end they were discussing it, and said that the American Flag is one of the most outsourced items for sale in America. The large companies outsource the labor of sewing and assembling it to China and the grommets on the flag, the last item assembled, were put in in here in America, and thus the "Made in America" patch was sewn on (also here, so it's actually the last step), and was perfectly legal.

 

 

Thank you for the contribution. I know different countries have different requirements.

 

Strange that I live in a 3rd world country and our "Made in" laws seem stricter than that.

 

Puttermakers in general have to be more open then if this is a correct legal interpretation. Was it mentioned in the documentary if a certain percentage of the work had to be performed in the US or let us say for putters.... stamping and milling of a face would be enough to make it a USA product. In the garment industry over here, my friend who makes clothes tell me they can make the shirt into the general pattern and ship it overseas. Once any sewing or attaching of zippers is done (even a button, if he wasn't kidding) it has to be indicated to be made here.

[Rosales]

Does anyone have the cliffnotes on this thread so I don't have to read 21 pages?

[RobotDoctor]

Does anyone have the cliffnotes on this thread so I don't have to read 21 pages?

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jesperday]

Does anyone have the cliffnotes on this thread so I don't have to read 21 pages?

 

 

nickpoz said there were 5 minis

forgasim called complete b.s.

forgasim gives history lesson

he said

he said

your momma

no your momma

my daddy can beat your daddy in an arm wrestling match

no my daddy can beat your daddy in an arm wrestling match

good information

scotty this

scotty that

everyone is baffled that the guy wouldn't sell the mini for $40k

the deal was for $45k but fell through

a 3rd party was involved

i said a 3rd party was trying to skim off the top (jokingly)

biscuity goes off on all putter makers for no reason

rrkman swears up and down he's done posting but no one believes him

foregasim gives some more history

someone shows a pic of scotty as suddam hussain

someone actually gets offended by the pic

someone calls a pic of scotty gay

someone actually gets offended by a member calling the pic gay

CPSOX sounds pretty reasonable on his version

Forgasim sounds reasonable on his version

 

well...you get this point. just click on forgasim's profile for the good stuff. sorry fore :D

 

oh yeah... byron has made some mini's (dh9) and so has bettinardi (3/4)- both are solid!

[tpariff]

Jesper, you failed to mention that MANY readers got RickRoll'd somewhere near the end. :lol:

 

Kevin