Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[Pure745]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1844618' date='Jul 26 2009, 05:10 PM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844589' date='Jul 26 2009, 04:55 PM']So you're simply a zealous Cameron fanatic that patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron?

And you don't get paid for this?[/quote]

I don't consider myself a zealous Cameron fanatic. I'm a golfer who owns about 20 putters, 4 of which are used Cameron OTR putters. I'm a bigger fan of Ping than I am of Cameron.

I'm a member of TCC so I can see photos, but I've never made a post on their forum.

I don't get paid for this. I don't work in the golf industry. I've never met Scotty Cameron. I've never received anything from Scotty Cameron. Come to think of it, I've actually never bought a single Scotty Cameron product that was new, so he's made zero profit from me.
[/quote]

So then.. other than personal attacks, discussing escorts and the 1 millionth pivot tool.. what are you even doign posting on this thread? Other than your fascination and disdain for JR and blasting Puttertalk?

[hodges]

[quote name='xxio' post='1844805' date='Jul 26 2009, 09:38 PM']A simple correction somewhere along the line either in the stamp of 1/5 or "the fewer than 5" NOT "more than 5" as you mentioned in your post, we don't want history to get changed along the way now do we

I have suggest a few hypotheses that may make sense. The one making most sense without attributing fault to either the stamp or the webiste comment is that there are 2 lines/runs of Minis. One before the merger with Titleist of which fewer than 5 were made and another one were 5 were made of which the 1/5 belongs. That way noone from both sides is wrong, and noone is correct either [/quote]

The only problem with your hypotheses is it lacks any basis in fact.
If there was a second run of mini putters after the merger with Titleist someone would have one. So far no one has provided any proof to support your theory. I have also read about this hypotheses about alien abductions to explain some peoples loss of time experiences, not sure I buy that theory either without some more proof.

I still think the simplest explanation is that Scotty stamped the first head of the five he had 1 of 5. He didn't stamp the rest of them.
He knows he only completed 4 putters so there are fewer than 5. Sounds simple enough to me. In fact it makes kind of an interesting story.

[hodges]

[quote name='matthewb' post='1844190' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:42 PM']While we're on the topic of logical fallacies . . .

Another fallacy that keeps floating in this thread is the claim by the pro-Cameron camp that the burden of proof rests on those that do not believe in five Cameron Minis.

Rather the burden of proof rests on those that claim only five Minis exist for the purposes of collecting.

The only real question concerns what an appropriate level of proof would be required to reasonably establish the existence of only five Minis.[/quote]

I don't think it is up to those in the "pro-Cameron camp" to provide anything, the man who's name is on them says few than 5.
So you either believe him or not.

The simplest way to prove there are more Minis than Cameron has stated is to provide a picture of 6 mini putters. Heck I still waiting for the pictures of the other 2 mini putterheads I was told about

[rrkman]

[quote name='xxio' post='1844805' date='Jul 26 2009, 09:38 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1844288' date='Jul 27 2009, 04:50 AM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844190' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:42 PM']While we're on the topic of logical fallacies . . .

Another fallacy that keeps floating in this thread is the claim by the pro-Cameron camp that the burden of proof rests on those that do not believe in five Cameron Minis.

Rather the burden of proof rests on those that claim only five Minis exist for the purposes of collecting.

The only real question concerns what an appropriate level of proof would be required to reasonably establish the existence of only five Minis.[/quote]

Personally, I think the burden of proof is still on both sides. Cameron side has shown a 1/5 stamped putter and a quote from SC.com saying that fewer than 4 (or was it 5) putters were made prior to the Titleist merger.

Other side posted a quote from a site (TCC) that many called full of lies and propaganda saying that 8 heads were milled but maybe only 5 still existed. And also showed a picture of a head from Studio B.

Do either of these prove that only 5 were made or that more than 5 were made? Personally, I don't think so. IMO, I would guess that about 8 were milled....and most likely not all of them were made into putters (or even finished heads). How many? I don't know. Sounds like Cameron thinks that there are 5 out there. Does this include the studio B one? I have no idea. The list that I saw of the 5 has one that is listed as unknown....is it listed that way because they don't want to list bettinardi? Maybe. Is the 5th somewhere else and the studio B one not even included on there? Maybe. Is the one at studio b the only one left and all of the others have been lost or destroyed? Maybe because I think that is the only one with a current picture...although I think there was also some pics from Nick showing one - not sure when that was from (or what mini that was).

I would love real proof from either side. A copy of the order where 5 (or however many) were ordered. A personal quote from bettinardi saying that he milled 8 and sent 7 to Cameron and kept one. Anything like that would be helpful.

Here's an idea....how about we list them? Feel free to add to it of known mini's.

1. Studio B
2. Japanese Collector has one with Japanese tour player's name stamped on it.
3. One stamped 1/5 - originally Levine's but now with another collector
4. the one Nick posted actual pics of
5. Scotty has one

Anyone else have proof of others? Or something to falsify any of these?
[/quote]



Welcome back. Nice presentation.

The problem is not that the "pro Camerons" count vs the "anti-Camerons" count. The problem is that [b]there is inconsistency[/b] on the count of one side, the Cameron side.

A simple correction somewhere along the line either in the stamp of 1/5 or "the fewer than 5" NOT "more than 5" as you mentioned in your post, we don't want history to get changed along the way now do we

I have suggested a few hypotheses that may make sense. The one making most sense without attributing fault to either the stamp or the website comment is that there are 2 lines/runs of Minis. One before the merger with Titleist of which fewer than 5 were made and another one were 5 were made of which the 1/5 belongs. That way no one from both sides is wrong, and no one is correct either, that would be hard for you to accept because SC doesn't make mistakes only his webmaster and maybe his staff do right?


Edit for spellcheck
[/quote]

First of all, I've never said that Scotty doesn't make mistakes. He's human just like the rest of us and I'm sure that he has made his share of mistakes and probably even a few questionable business decisions. Personally, I think most of the people on both sides are right and have the same answer on the mini....if everyone could look past the politics, they could probably see this as well.

So I'm sorry but I just don't see that much inconsistency with the mini....maybe I missed something....and please tell me if I am.

- Officially (not opinions or posts by cameron fans or non-cameron fans) the site says fewer than 5 were made before the titleist merger....might be a little misleading but it doesn't say that only 4 were ever made.....it only says that fewer than 5 were made before the merger....plus, are they talking putter heads or putters - I know there has been some discussion on this....and I talk a little more about this in the next point.

- There is a putter stamped 1/5. This certainly matches up with the Butler comment from TCC that foregasim brought up. Butler said that he thought 8 were made but only 5 were turned into finished heads. There is also a pro-cameron supported list that says they believe that there are 5 mini's out there....with 1 of them MIA. Now I know there has been some discussion about putters vs. heads and so on.....and people have seen and taken pictures recently of what looks to be a finished head at Studio B - so maybe that is the fifth on the list. So, numerous 'facts' lead me to believe that there are 5 and that bettinardi's is probably the missing fifth putter. Also, with the discussion on here about when a putter head becomes a putter....this actually clears everything up. 4 of the 5 finished heads were turned into 'putters' and the 5th head stayed with Bettinardi. So the statement on SC.com is right (according to those that believe a putter has to have a shaft/grip before it can be considered a putter) - less than 5 'mini' putters were made. With the 5th head still at Studio B, if you add that to the 4 heads that were turned into putters, that equals 5 which is what Butler said. Which also equals what the pro-cameron guys feel is out there. Really, the only question for me is - what happened to the other 3 unfinished pieces? Did Bettinardi send them to cameron as well? Did he destroy them? Does he still have them and one of them is the one people saw at Sudio B - because this would certainly throw a wrench in my conclusion.

I guess I just don't understand what the argument is about the mini anymore? The value - sure, the $35K sale supposedly included some trading as well. Was everything combined = $35K....I have no idea because I don't know what else was included in the trade. The more recent $40K offer but wanted $45K story....again, I have no idea. I don't personally know Bluto at all but I have no reason to just call that claim BS. Plus, it is interesting to hear numbers like that for a putter but in all honesty, it means nothing to me. I don't have one and I certainly don't plan on spending even a tenth of that on a putter any time soon.


BTW - Your suggestion is very similar to what I said in post 317 on page 8 of this thread....here it is again in case you are bored and have some free time. I don't really agree with the multilple run theory any more but I guess it could have happened that way.

[b]Based on this post and what I remember from other posts.....here is my opinion (and there are still a lot of questions in it). I have no idea who came up with the idea for the mini....sounds to me like it was Byron's . Did Cameron think of making one first to give to his friends, did Bettinardi think of making one first as a design project, or did a tour player ask for one first because he wanted a smaller putter? I have no idea but could believe any of those. I do assume that Bettinardi did the milling....that isn't hard for me to believe. I also think (IMO) that the mini was already done before the 'under the pillow incident'....maybe Scotty had Bettinardi make 4 of them to use as gifts to his friends for their first chiled.....then Scotty's wife went to Bettinardi and asked him to mill some more to 'surprise' Scotty with the one under the pillow and maybe he made 4 since it was easier or it just made more sense than just making one....so we get to 8 total. As for the timing of when they were made (before/after Titleist), I have no idea. Scotty might also consider this 'second run' a different putter - might be slightly different?(this is from my opinion, I have no idea if there was a second run, a third run, or 30 of them were made - just trying to put together a story based on the little that I do know).

As for the 1/5 issue...that is a tough one. Certainly contradicts what is on the site. Then again, what is Cameron considering a classic mini....or maybe the 'second run' was after....either way it looks like more than 4 were made so that statement might be 'true' on the site but it is a very misleading. Could also be (like I said in my made up story above) that he had 4 mini's made for his friends and then this gift is the fifth....and the other 3 are still out there and maybe with bettinardi still. Was his first born before or after the titleist merger? If is was after, it even makes a little more sense about the 'second run'.

[/b]

[xxio]

[quote name='hodges' post='1844951' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:44 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1844805' date='Jul 26 2009, 09:38 PM']A simple correction somewhere along the line either in the stamp of 1/5 or "the fewer than 5" NOT "more than 5" as you mentioned in your post, we don't want history to get changed along the way now do we

I have suggest a few hypotheses that may make sense. The one making most sense without attributing fault to either the stamp or the webiste comment is that there are 2 lines/runs of Minis. One before the merger with Titleist of which fewer than 5 were made and another one were 5 were made of which the 1/5 belongs. That way noone from both sides is wrong, and noone is correct either [/quote]

The only problem with your hypotheses is it lacks any basis in fact.
If there was a second run of mini putters after the merger with Titleist someone would have one. So far no one has provided any proof to support your theory. I have also read about this hypotheses about alien abductions to explain some peoples loss of time experiences, not sure I buy that theory either without some more proof.

I still think the simplest explanation is that Scotty stamped the first head of the five he had 1 of 5. He didn't stamp the rest of them.
He knows he only completed 4 putters so there are fewer than 5. Sounds simple enough to me. In fact it makes kind of an interesting story.
[/quote]


The one stamped 1/5 isn't a putter? No shaft and grip I can't tell by the pics posted of the one stamped 1/5. Maybe someone who has the AOP book with the pictures can show whether or not it has a shaft and a grip. The one on Cameron's site has one, but is probably one of the other four putters he gave as gifts, right?

Your reasoning is Cameron completed only 4 putters so either one was NEVER intended to be shafted up which is no good because he did stamp 1/5 meaning one of them was to be a a "5TH" of something or it was the "5th" of a line of putterHEADS and not putters. The only problem again is the Cameron site itself says there "There were fewer than 5 of these [b]putters [/b]produced before the merger with Titleist". It doesn't say fewer than 5 of these heads. Your logic of not being shafted fails

My "other production run" theory is the most consistent with both Pro and Anti "stories".



EUREKA!

I have it and in fact it will solve all these rumors of these excess heads and headcovers being more than the published numbers. Cameron when mentioning the production/release number of a putter goes to Ktech and AM&E does an actual unit count of completed putters (shaft and grip) and heacovers. If there are some limited putters that do not have a grip yet or a special release headcover that does not have velcro attached it is "not counted" in the published production number. If they happen to make it out there later on that is okay they weren't part of the 1/5, 1/100/ or 1/500 anyway because they were not putters/headcovers yet at the time.

Actually using Jick's advice and using Cameron's frame of mind you may make sense.

[xxio]

[quote name='hodges' post='1845061' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:23 AM']I don't think it is up to those in the "pro-Cameron camp" to provide anything, the man who's name is on them says few than 5.
So you either believe him or not.[/quote]


Again it is the "same man" who stamped them 1/5 right?

The "same man" who people pay to get a Certification Of Authenticity.

[xxio]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1845084' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:34 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1844805' date='Jul 26 2009, 09:38 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1844288' date='Jul 27 2009, 04:50 AM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844190' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:42 PM']While we're on the topic of logical fallacies . . .

Another fallacy that keeps floating in this thread is the claim by the pro-Cameron camp that the burden of proof rests on those that do not believe in five Cameron Minis.

Rather the burden of proof rests on those that claim only five Minis exist for the purposes of collecting.

The only real question concerns what an appropriate level of proof would be required to reasonably establish the existence of only five Minis.[/quote]

Personally, I think the burden of proof is still on both sides. Cameron side has shown a 1/5 stamped putter and a quote from SC.com saying that fewer than 4 (or was it 5) putters were made prior to the Titleist merger.

Other side posted a quote from a site (TCC) that many called full of lies and propaganda saying that 8 heads were milled but maybe only 5 still existed. And also showed a picture of a head from Studio B.

Do either of these prove that only 5 were made or that more than 5 were made? Personally, I don't think so. IMO, I would guess that about 8 were milled....and most likely not all of them were made into putters (or even finished heads). How many? I don't know. Sounds like Cameron thinks that there are 5 out there. Does this include the studio B one? I have no idea. The list that I saw of the 5 has one that is listed as unknown....is it listed that way because they don't want to list bettinardi? Maybe. Is the 5th somewhere else and the studio B one not even included on there? Maybe. Is the one at studio b the only one left and all of the others have been lost or destroyed? Maybe because I think that is the only one with a current picture...although I think there was also some pics from Nick showing one - not sure when that was from (or what mini that was).

I would love real proof from either side. A copy of the order where 5 (or however many) were ordered. A personal quote from bettinardi saying that he milled 8 and sent 7 to Cameron and kept one. Anything like that would be helpful.

Here's an idea....how about we list them? Feel free to add to it of known mini's.

1. Studio B
2. Japanese Collector has one with Japanese tour player's name stamped on it.
3. One stamped 1/5 - originally Levine's but now with another collector
4. the one Nick posted actual pics of
5. Scotty has one

Anyone else have proof of others? Or something to falsify any of these?
[/quote]



Welcome back. Nice presentation.

The problem is not that the "pro Camerons" count vs the "anti-Camerons" count. The problem is that [b]there is inconsistency[/b] on the count of one side, the Cameron side.

A simple correction somewhere along the line either in the stamp of 1/5 or "the fewer than 5" NOT "more than 5" as you mentioned in your post, we don't want history to get changed along the way now do we

I have suggested a few hypotheses that may make sense. The one making most sense without attributing fault to either the stamp or the website comment is that there are 2 lines/runs of Minis. One before the merger with Titleist of which fewer than 5 were made and another one were 5 were made of which the 1/5 belongs. That way no one from both sides is wrong, and no one is correct either, that would be hard for you to accept because SC doesn't make mistakes only his webmaster and maybe his staff do right?


Edit for spellcheck
[/quote]

First of all, I've never said that Scotty doesn't make mistakes. He's human just like the rest of us and I'm sure that he has made his share of mistakes and probably even a few questionable business decisions. Personally, I think most of the people on both sides are right and have the same answer on the mini....if everyone could look past the politics, they could probably see this as well.

So I'm sorry but I just don't see that much inconsistency with the mini....maybe I missed something....and please tell me if I am.

- Officially (not opinions or posts by cameron fans or non-cameron fans) the site says fewer than 5 were made before the titleist merger....might be a little misleading but it doesn't say that only 4 were ever made.....it only says that fewer than 5 were made before the merger....plus, are they talking putter heads or putters - I know there has been some discussion on this....and I talk a little more about this in the next point.

- There is a putter stamped 1/5. This certainly matches up with the Butler comment from TCC that foregasim brought up. Butler said that he thought 8 were made but only 5 were turned into finished heads. There is also a pro-cameron supported list that says they believe that there are 5 mini's out there....with 1 of them MIA. Now I know there has been some discussion about putters vs. heads and so on.....and people have seen and taken pictures recently of what looks to be a finished head at Studio B - so maybe that is the fifth on the list. So, numerous 'facts' lead me to believe that there are 5 and that bettinardi's is probably the missing fifth putter. Also, with the discussion on here about when a putter head becomes a putter....this actually clears everything up. 4 of the 5 finished heads were turned into 'putters' and the 5th head stayed with Bettinardi. So the statement on SC.com is right (according to those that believe a putter has to have a shaft/grip before it can be considered a putter) - less than 5 'mini' putters were made. With the 5th head still at Studio B, if you add that to the 4 heads that were turned into putters, that equals 5 which is what Butler said. Which also equals what the pro-cameron guys feel is out there. Really, the only question for me is - what happened to the other 3 unfinished pieces? Did Bettinardi send them to cameron as well? Did he destroy them? Does he still have them and one of them is the one people saw at Sudio B - because this would certainly throw a wrench in my conclusion.

I guess I just don't understand what the argument is about the mini anymore? The value - sure, the $35K sale supposedly included some trading as well. Was everything combined = $35K....I have no idea because I don't know what else was included in the trade. The more recent $40K offer but wanted $45K story....again, I have no idea. I don't personally know Bluto at all but I have no reason to just call that claim BS. Plus, it is interesting to hear numbers like that for a putter but in all honesty, it means nothing to me. I don't have one and I certainly don't plan on spending even a tenth of that on a putter any time soon.


BTW - Your suggestion is very similar to what I said in post 317 on page 8 of this thread....here it is again in case you are bored and have some free time. I don't really agree with the multilple run theory any more but I guess it could have happened that way.

[b]Based on this post and what I remember from other posts.....here is my opinion (and there are still a lot of questions in it). I have no idea who came up with the idea for the mini....sounds to me like it was Byron's . Did Cameron think of making one first to give to his friends, did Bettinardi think of making one first as a design project, or did a tour player ask for one first because he wanted a smaller putter? I have no idea but could believe any of those. I do assume that Bettinardi did the milling....that isn't hard for me to believe. I also think (IMO) that the mini was already done before the 'under the pillow incident'....maybe Scotty had Bettinardi make 4 of them to use as gifts to his friends for their first chiled.....then Scotty's wife went to Bettinardi and asked him to mill some more to 'surprise' Scotty with the one under the pillow and maybe he made 4 since it was easier or it just made more sense than just making one....so we get to 8 total. As for the timing of when they were made (before/after Titleist), I have no idea. Scotty might also consider this 'second run' a different putter - might be slightly different?(this is from my opinion, I have no idea if there was a second run, a third run, or 30 of them were made - just trying to put together a story based on the little that I do know).

As for the 1/5 issue...that is a tough one. Certainly contradicts what is on the site. Then again, what is Cameron considering a classic mini....or maybe the 'second run' was after....either way it looks like more than 4 were made so that statement might be 'true' on the site but it is a very misleading. Could also be (like I said in my made up story above) that he had 4 mini's made for his friends and then this gift is the fifth....and the other 3 are still out there and maybe with bettinardi still. Was his first born before or after the titleist merger? If is was after, it even makes a little more sense about the 'second run'.

[/b]
[/quote]


See what happens when logic is used. We are kind of reaching but it is either this path or Cameron is being untrue. I would rather that we presume that everyone is telling the truth right?

RRK to further down this road of discussion.

If there was a "second run" it should be acknowledged somewhere in the archives should it not? I was thinking maybe since the initial run were gifts and should never have gotten out there in Cameron's mind that initial run as gifts do not exist or maybe they were given as heads only (not putters) and the owners have locked them up in safety deposit boxes. That is why there are no Minis with these names of kids stamped on them for us to see.

The rest of the Minis are the ones that he made for sale. The "story" on the website is the history behind the creation but the run of Minis "for sale" are different and these are the "fewer than 5", because the initial run was 5 (please see 1/5 stamp).

[rrkman]

[quote name='xxio' post='1845141' date='Jul 26 2009, 11:57 PM']See what happens when logic is used. We are kind of reaching but it is either this path or Cameron is being untrue. I would rather that we presume that everyone is telling the truth right?

RRK to further down this road of discussion.

If there was a "second run" it should be acknowledged somewhere in the archives should it not? I was thinking maybe since the initial run were gifts and should never have gotten out there in Cameron's mind that initial run as gifts do not exist or maybe they were given as heads only (not putters) and the owners have locked them up in safety deposit boxes. That is why there are no Minis with these names of kids stamped on them for us to see.

The rest of the Minis are the ones that he made for sale. The "story" on the website is the history behind the creation but the run of Minis "for sale" are different and these are the "fewer than 5", because the initial run was 5 (please see 1/5 stamp).[/quote]

Personally, I would rather presume what I think is true....in this case, I just can't find anything that contradicts either side.

For the record, I just don't think that there was more than one run but if there was, it should be noted somewhere. Initially, these may have been 'designed' for gifts but it looks to me like that never happened.....maybe collectors (and the Japanese pro) jumped at these before any of his friends had kids. Maybe he never meant to give any to his friends and it just makes for an interesting story. I don't know the truth but it seems reasonable that 8 were made and 5 were turned into finished heads. Of those 5, 4 were made into putters by Cameron (less than 5 just like the site says) and one finished head was left with Bettinardi. Would still like to know what happened to the other 3.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1844618' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:10 PM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844589' date='Jul 26 2009, 04:55 PM']So you're simply a zealous Cameron fanatic that patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron?

And you don't get paid for this?[/quote]

I don't consider myself a zealous Cameron fanatic. I'm a golfer who owns about 20 putters, 4 of which are used Cameron OTR putters. I'm a bigger fan of Ping than I am of Cameron.

I'm a member of TCC so I can see photos, but I've never made a post on their forum.

I don't get paid for this. I don't work in the golf industry. I've never met Scotty Cameron. I've never received anything from Scotty Cameron. Come to think of it, I've actually never bought a single Scotty Cameron product that was new, so he's made zero profit from me.
[/quote]

You didn't comment on this part: "patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron."

So, in your opinion, why *do* you patrol Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron given that you're not paid & you consider yourself a bigger fan of Ping putters?

[cardia10]

The only way Cameron will ever become believable is if there is a third party grading system not tied to him or any other putter maker in any way. For that to happen, there would have to be a true market for putters, and not just a niche of collectors along with Scotty himself that inflates the values. If I, 10 handicap and all, can order a 009 circle t putter, what does that say about tour putters? This whole Cameron empire smells like Bernie Madoff's prison underwear. It is a ponzi scheme waiting to topple and the collectors who thought they had something valuable will be left holding the bag, while Cameron laughs all the way to the bank.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='hodges' post='1845061' date='Jul 26 2009, 11:23 PM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844190' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:42 PM']While we're on the topic of logical fallacies . . .

Another fallacy that keeps floating in this thread is the claim by the pro-Cameron camp that the burden of proof rests on those that do not believe in five Cameron Minis.

Rather the burden of proof rests on those that claim only five Minis exist for the purposes of collecting.

The only real question concerns what an appropriate level of proof would be required to reasonably establish the existence of only five Minis.[/quote]

I don't think it is up to those in the "pro-Cameron camp" to provide anything, the man who's name is on them says few than 5.
So you either believe him or not.

The simplest way to prove there are more Minis than Cameron has stated is to provide a picture of 6 mini putters. Heck I still waiting for the pictures of the other 2 mini putterheads I was told about
[/quote]

Greg, you've succinctly stated the centerpiece of the pro-Cameron defense when you state:

[quote]So you either believe [Scotty Cameron] or not.[/quote]

In other words, when you participate in the economic market of collecting Scotty Cameron putters, you are at the mercy of an irrational faith in what Cameron does or does not reveal.

Much of this thread concerns information that points out the depth of this faith's irrationality.

The upshot is that the Cameron collecting market is ultimately fragile and subject to extreme volatility (as are any markets infused with high degrees of irrationality).

For you to argue that the Cameron market is more rational than I've described, the burden of proof is again on you.

But it seems like you want to make strong claims while not taking responsibility for backing up those claims--yet another sign of an irrational faith.

Lest you misunderstand, I am not in any way decrying that the Cameron market exists as I've described. In fact, if you choose to participate in it, kudos to you. However, the legitimacy of this market will remain unestablished as long as you & others writhe publicly when questions are raised.

To put it another way, participate if you will in the Cameron market, but be prepared for a hard fall with the collapse of a doctrine that shored up your possessions.

[biscuity]

[quote name='matthewb' post='1845390' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:48 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1844618' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:10 PM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1844589' date='Jul 26 2009, 04:55 PM']So you're simply a zealous Cameron fanatic that patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron?

And you don't get paid for this?[/quote]

I don't consider myself a zealous Cameron fanatic. I'm a golfer who owns about 20 putters, 4 of which are used Cameron OTR putters. I'm a bigger fan of Ping than I am of Cameron.

I'm a member of TCC so I can see photos, but I've never made a post on their forum.

I don't get paid for this. I don't work in the golf industry. I've never met Scotty Cameron. I've never received anything from Scotty Cameron. Come to think of it, I've actually never bought a single Scotty Cameron product that was new, so he's made zero profit from me.
[/quote]

You didn't comment on this part: "patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron."

So, in your opinion, why *do* you patrol Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron given that you're not paid & you consider yourself a bigger fan of Ping putters?
[/quote]

I read golf forums because I am interested in golf. I make comments on topics that I find interesting.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1845493' date='Jul 27 2009, 09:10 AM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1845390' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:48 AM']

You didn't comment on this part: "patrols Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron."

So, in your opinion, why *do* you patrol Internet golf forums in order to defend the interests of Cameron given that you're not paid & you consider yourself a bigger fan of Ping putters?[/quote]

I read golf forums because I am interested in golf. I make comments on topics that I find interesting.
[/quote]

Given the fact that over 90% of your posts here are defenses of Scotty Cameron (feel free to review your posts and figure out the exact percentage), your interest in golf & this forum is quite thin when Cameron is not involved.

[easyyy]

I have asked a few Moderators to help out in this thread. We will close it if we cant keep the nature of this thread stays negative.

We are asking to not bait, flame or provoke another member here. We are better than that here and do not allow it. This thread is open still because we feel there is a lot of people that would like to see it stay open. The popularity of this thread and the passion of the readers is obvious. However we MUST maintaint he rules of our community here.

The Rules that are sticky on every forum...


[quote]Rules-

Posting here is a privilege not a right.

* While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.
* Please refrain from posting meaningless threads, one word (or short) non-sense posts, or the such.
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* Other Golf related message board links allowed if they allow ours. Yes we can write their names in posts with out worry if you will get banned.
* No removal of our content to be used on other sites (unless watermarked) without prior consent from management. Watermarked WRX pictures can be redistributed.
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* Discussion of illegal activities such as software and music piracy and other intellectual property violations are not allowed.
* Each member is allowed one login account. Registering with multiple accounts is not allowed. No impersonating another member. Multiple identities and false e-mail addresses are not allowed.
* No spamming or unauthorized commercial postings in the "Forums" or listing in the "Classifieds" without prior approval from management. Classifieds are free and for personal use.
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* No religions or political discussions.
* Please respect sponsors. They provide critical financial support which will allows the site to remain viable.
* Treat others like the way you want it to be treated. Mutual respect is a key component to preservation of the sites goals.
* No "running the site". Have balance and don't over post in one day. High maintenance users can be asked to slow and or not post. Don't deluge the forums and overwhelm the threads.
* Also while these rules cover most common situations, they cannot anticipate everything. Consequently we reserve the right to take any actions we deem appropriate to ensure these forums are not disrupted or abused in any way.
* We also reserve the right to ban anyone who wilfully violates the rules.
* We reserve the right to remove offensive posts without notice.

Any threads/posts of these types will be deleted.[/quote]

[Redman]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1843186' date='Jul 25 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1843158' date='Jul 25 2009, 04:50 PM']How about some people (a moderator for example) making a decision that friendships cannot be bought by some putter designer and perks when the line in the sand is drawn. Maybe a former moderator of a fan site takes friendship over personal greed and does not take ranting threats kindly and will buy their [i]"oil cloth"[/i] anywhere they choose. I just know that for some people friendships and associations cannot be purchased but a perk putter here and there.[/quote]


The line in the sand was only drawn for a few people. Those people were insiders with special access and special responsibilities. They, of all people, need to be 100% dedicated, trustworthy with passwords, resposible for special information, and able to moderate according to the rules of the forum. Especially on a forum that is dedicated 100% to Cameron products. If the moderators don't agree with that, then they should not be moderators.

Everyone else (the public) has the opportunity to subscribe to as many forums as they want.
[/quote]

Biscuit can you please explain to me and everyone else on here how you have 4 or 5 or whatever it was OTR used Camerons, a few headcovers and a value of around $500 yet you act on here like you are the resident Cameron expert on everything. Every post is that I have talked to Cameron Insider #1 and #5 etc and this is how it went down. You sure seem to be knower of all things Cameron to have so little invested. Basically you are taking all these other things you have read or heard and posting them as if you know and yet you were giving Foregasim and others a hard time for doing the same thing.

[Redman]

[quote name='hodges' post='1842023' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:36 PM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840475' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:45 AM']Why do you think JR and lots of other high end collectors asked for their posts to be removed from TCC? This is one thing that hasn't been discussed much. What happened that was so bad that you had several high end well known Cameron Collectors sell their collections and jump ship very very unhappy? It certainly doesn't seem like it was just one or two that had a falling out with Cameron or TCC, but a significant number discovered something that just wasn't right. Can you elaborate on what you know of this?[/quote]

I can elaborate and will give you the 10 cent version, It is a large topic worthy of its own thread. I think it has to do with the start of PT and the requests Scotty made of Doug and all the moderators of TCC at the time. Pre-PT there wasn't nearly the level of Cameron bashing that now exists. I take it you were not around at that time.

Short version Doug tells Scotty he is going to start a new website so the non Cameron talk can be directed there and away from TCC. Doug wanted TCC to be all about Cameron and not other puttermakers. I know this from conversations with Doug and people connected with Scotty.
I have been told by someone who has been in the studio and I would consider an insider that Scotty asked Doug not to start PT.
I believe (purely my opinion and speculation here) that Scotty respected Doug's website abilities and felt a website for his competitors would not be in his best business interests. Maybe Scotty could see the future and see what PT has become. Put yourself in Scottys shoes, would you want your new friend helping your competitors?

At the time Doug had access to Scotty via the telephone, he could call him and Scotty would take the time to talk with him. Doug was helping Rand with the AOP website. Doug was active online. He also didn't have any kids yet so he had more free time. Oh how kids can change your time priorities.

Anyways PT starts and Scotty cuts off Doug. Scotty then ask the moderators to choose to either be on TCC or PT. JR and JS decided to go with PT and I believe that is the root of why JR is now like he is.
Now Doug had a choice to make, what to do with TCC.
I can tell you that I played golf with Doug and Bill V at Disney right after this all happened. Doug and I and several others, sat around after golf and asked Doug about what happened. He told us Scotty just quit taking his calls and he really didn't know what had happened. He didn't want to just shut the TCC website down so he decided to give ( not sell ) the website to Vog, very generous thing to do. Maybe Doug didn't believe Scotty was asking him not to start PT, maybe he didn't understand that Scotty didn't want PT to start and maybe Doug just decided this is America and I am free to do as I please.
I really don't know the answer to that and only Doug does.

Some people felt that Scotty asking moderators to choose the site they wanted to be on was akin to asking people to choose who their friends were. I felt that way for a while. But I understand now that you can't serve two masters and being a mod on both TCC and PT was never going to work. The way all golf internet forums have developed I don't think you could be a successful mod on more than one golf site. (again my personal opinion here)
I maintained a membership on both sites because I wasn't a moderator I could do that. In the begining there were a lot of common members.

I tried to stay friends with the guys from PT but I am not one to toe anyones company line. I just tell it how I see it. When JR's posting became more negative and he started twisting facts and stories I tried to point out his errors as politely as possible. He never liked being corrected. I guess that is why he has had timeouts from some of the other golf sites he has been a member of. Eventually I was dismissed from PT because I wasn't contributing what they wanted contributed.

I think the reasons JR sold his collect are obvious, I really don't know any of the other people you mention well enough to comment on them. JR makes a great impression in person, he is a really likeable guy. But get him behind his keyboard and someone else appears.

The members that asked for their posts to be removed did so because they were no longer members and only they could comment on their reasons.

This is the history that I know from being there and first hand conversations. where I have posted my opinion I have tried to note that.

If the Mods of the site think this should be split off into its own thread no problems, if the mods of this site find talking about other sites not what golfwrx is about and you want to delete it no problem (well I did take a long time to write this out)

Redman I hope this gives you a little insite to some past history. more questions just ask
Greg

PS:
Foregaism if you are not JR there is probably no reason for you to respond to anything in this post unless you to have personally met JR
[/quote]

Thanks a lot for writing this out Greg. This is great information and I can't believe it took us 33 pages or whatever to get it. I am sure others will have a different account of some sort of what happened but I truly believe this issue is a really really important part of this entire thread and relationship between PT and TCC and all those involved with them. It is certainly a shame it had to end up the way it did. I understand what you are saying looking at it from Scotty's point of view with competitors but at the same time I still don't feel it is right to draw a line in the sand and make people choose between each other because of putter brands and forums. Thanks again for the information!

[ball game]

[size=3]The post has been about much more than just the mini. I have learned a great deal about putters, putter makers, the putting market, and putting forums. The following is what I have learned so far. [/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]History facts[/size][/b]

[size=3] [/size]

[list]
[*][size=3]Cameron is a very successful putter maker.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron started milling putters with and for many other great putter makers.[/size]
[*][size=3]Many tour players use or have used Cameron putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron putters sell for a large amount of money.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron created a historical registry for his putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]The registry COA can greatly affect the value of a putter.[/size]
[*][size=3]Some of Cameron putters sell for a significantly greater amount, then putters made by other putter makers.[/size]
[*][size=3]Much of the milling of Cameron putters are contracted out.[/size]
[*][size=3]One of Scott’s putters sold for over $35000 [/size]
[*][size=3]Scotty Cameron produced a run of minis BEFORE the teaming up with Titleist.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron had Bettinardi mill the mini putters.[/size]
[*][size=3] [u]Friends [/u]of Scott created a web site dedicated to Cameron putters the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3] The creator of the TCC made a second putting site was created to discuss other putter makers PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The TCC was given to a friend.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of long time TCC members were banned from the site.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of long time, Cameron collectors, sold their collections.[/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]Up for debate: NOT Facts. It would be nice to here both sides without personal attacks.[/size][/b]

[b][size=3] [/size][/b]

[list]
[*][size=3]Cameron does not give the proper amount of respect to other putter makers (past and present).[/size]
[*][size=3]The Cameron / Bettinardi partnership ended badly.[/size]
[*][size=3]There was a second run of mini putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of putters were contracted out to over sea contractors. [/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron has inflated the value of his products with the registry. [/size]
[*][size=3]The registry grades Cameron putters with a bias on who owns them.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron offers a lot of perks to his friends that may have included golf, merchandise, and high COA ratings.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of friend’s and big time collectors were told by Scott to choose between the TCC and PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The weight of the above mandate was not realized by a number of collectors.[/size]
[*][size=3]The faction of friends that were members of PT were cut off from Cameron, the perks and the value of their collections and the ability to add to them was in jeopardy.[/size]
[*][size=3]The friend that was given the TCC banned a number of former friends from the TCC for choosing PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]No negative comments can be given about Cameron or his products on the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3]There are a number of bitter former Cameron collectors that felt people choose friendships over putters.[/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]The Drama[/size][/b]

[b][size=3] [/size][/b]

[list]
[*][size=3]There are a number of former Cameron collectors that have been waiting to expose some of the dirt on the club they were kicked out of.[/size]
[*][size=3]There are a number of current collectors that are defending the club they are a part of.[/size]
[*][size=3]One of the most expensive putters in history may have a tainted past.[/size]
[*][size=3]The rift between former and current collectors has been waiting to come to ahead for years.[/size]
[*][size=3]Former collectors can not openly discuss putters on the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3]Current collectors feel they can not openly discuss putters on PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The golfwrx is the place where it can happen in a peaceful way. [/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[size=3]Ball Game[/size]

[Arafel]

Nice synopsis Ball Game. I think it about sums everything up.

Groupthink seems to happen in market bubbles all through history, especially when lots of money and ego's are involved. This seems like it may be going on at TCC.


[b][u]Groupthink[/u] is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During Groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.


[u]Symptoms of groupthink[/u]
In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.

2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.

3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.

4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil or stupid.

5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".

6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.

7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.

8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

[/b]

[CPSOX]

Lol....you've reduced the hobby of hundreds if not thousands of people to a cut/paste from Wikipedia. Solid hypothesis.

[Marlockey]

[quote name='ball game' post='1845788' date='Jul 27 2009, 05:00 PM'][size=3]The post has been about much more than just the mini. I have learned a great deal about putters, putter makers, the putting market, and putting forums. The following is what I have learned so far. [/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]History facts[/size][/b]

[size=3] [/size]

[list]
[*][size=3]Cameron is a very successful putter maker.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron started milling putters with and for many other great putter makers.[/size]
[*][size=3]Many tour players use or have used Cameron putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron putters sell for a large amount of money.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron created a historical registry for his putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]The registry COA can greatly affect the value of a putter.[/size]
[*][size=3]Some of Cameron putters sell for a significantly greater amount, then putters made by other putter makers.[/size]
[*][size=3]Much of the milling of Cameron putters are contracted out.[/size]
[*][size=3]One of Scott’s putters sold for over $35000 [/size]
[*][size=3]Scotty Cameron produced a run of minis BEFORE the teaming up with Titleist.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron had Bettinardi mill the mini putters.[/size]
[*][size=3] [u]Friends [/u]of Scott created a web site dedicated to Cameron putters the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3] The creator of the TCC made a second putting site was created to discuss other putter makers PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The TCC was given to a friend.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of long time TCC members were banned from the site.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of long time, Cameron collectors, sold their collections.[/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]Up for debate: NOT Facts. It would be nice to here both sides without personal attacks.[/size][/b]

[b][size=3] [/size][/b]

[list]
[*][size=3]Cameron does not give the proper amount of respect to other putter makers (past and present).[/size]
[*][size=3]The Cameron / Bettinardi partnership ended badly.[/size]
[*][size=3]There was a second run of mini putters.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of putters were contracted out to over sea contractors. [/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron has inflated the value of his products with the registry. [/size]
[*][size=3]The registry grades Cameron putters with a bias on who owns them.[/size]
[*][size=3]Cameron offers a lot of perks to his friends that may have included golf, merchandise, and high COA ratings.[/size]
[*][size=3]A number of friend’s and big time collectors were told by Scott to choose between the TCC and PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The weight of the above mandate was not realized by a number of collectors.[/size]
[*][size=3]The faction of friends that were members of PT were cut off from Cameron, the perks and the value of their collections and the ability to add to them was in jeopardy.[/size]
[*][size=3]The friend that was given the TCC banned a number of former friends from the TCC for choosing PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]No negative comments can be given about Cameron or his products on the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3]There are a number of bitter former Cameron collectors that felt people choose friendships over putters.[/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[b][size=3]The Drama[/size][/b]

[b][size=3] [/size][/b]

[list]
[*][size=3]There are a number of former Cameron collectors that have been waiting to expose some of the dirt on the club they were kicked out of.[/size]
[*][size=3]There are a number of current collectors that are defending the club they are a part of.[/size]
[*][size=3]One of the most expensive putters in history may have a tainted past.[/size]
[*][size=3]The rift between former and current collectors has been waiting to come to ahead for years.[/size]
[*][size=3]Former collectors can not openly discuss putters on the TCC.[/size]
[*][size=3]Current collectors feel they can not openly discuss putters on PT.[/size]
[*][size=3]The golfwrx is the place where it can happen in a peaceful way. [/size]
[/list][size=3] [/size]

[size=3]Ball Game[/size][/quote]

Great Post,

This about covers it if you ask me.

[Arafel]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1845906' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:12 PM']Lol....you've reduced the hobby of hundreds if not thousands of people to a cut/paste from Wikipedia. Solid hypothesis.[/quote]

Does it apply to you? Does it apply to TCC? Or are you saying am I just weak, evil or stupid?

[CPSOX]

[quote name='JASONR5' post='1845924' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:20 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1845906' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:12 PM']Lol....you've reduced the hobby of hundreds if not thousands of people to a cut/paste from Wikipedia. Solid hypothesis.[/quote]

Does it apply to you? Does it apply to TCC? Or are you saying am I just weak, evil or stupid?
[/quote]

Dr. Freud, I'll have to keep you guessing....but I will say it's awfully bold to paint with such a broad brush over people you don't know.

Thanks for the Psychology 101 lesson though.

CPS

[DavePelz4]

"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?

[Arafel]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1845933' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:24 PM'][quote name='JASONR5' post='1845924' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:20 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1845906' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:12 PM']Lol....you've reduced the hobby of hundreds if not thousands of people to a cut/paste from Wikipedia. Solid hypothesis.[/quote]

Does it apply to you? Does it apply to TCC? Or are you saying am I just weak, evil or stupid?
[/quote]

Dr. Freud, I'll have to keep you guessing....but I will say it's awfully bold to paint with such a broad brush over people you don't know.

Thanks for the Psychology 101 lesson though.

CPS
[/quote]

I didn't mean to offend you. I guess I had better watch what I say.



My apologies.

[scottym]

[quote name='DavePelz4' post='1845945' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:30 AM']"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?[/quote]


What was the purpose of this post?

Is it informative, constructive, insightful, clever.. anything??

Or is it just another devisive cheap shot that isn't even funny?

[stage1350]

[quote name='scottym' post='1846031' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:07 PM'][quote name='DavePelz4' post='1845945' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:30 AM']"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?[/quote]


What was the purpose of this post?

Is it informative, constructive, insightful, clever.. anything??

Or is it just another devisive cheap shot that isn't even funny?
[/quote]
You don't find it funny when someone pays $80 to have them say "we don't know the exact amount made. It could be 1 of 5 or less than 5 like the site says."?

Lighten up, Francis.

Is there any purpose to your post besides trying to pick a fight?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='scottym' post='1846031' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:07 PM'][quote name='DavePelz4' post='1845945' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:30 AM']"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?[/quote]


What was the purpose of this post?

Is it informative, constructive, insightful, clever.. anything??

Or is it just another devisive cheap shot that isn't even funny?
[/quote]

I find it hysterical the double standard of the COA process. Some people get a A COA for a putter because of their stature while some get a C COA because of a minor change. If anyone has questions about specifics, foregasim definitely knows specific examples of the COA hysteria.

[Redman]

[quote name='scottym' post='1846031' date='Jul 27 2009, 02:07 PM'][quote name='DavePelz4' post='1845945' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:30 AM']"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?[/quote]


What was the purpose of this post?

Is it informative, constructive, insightful, clever.. anything??

Or is it just another devisive cheap shot that isn't even funny?
[/quote]

Actually I found it quite funny. I find it funny as well that you appear every once and a while to pick an argument and have had absolutely nothing to contribute to the thread. You aren't really serviing your "side" very well.

[scottym]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1846064' date='Jul 27 2009, 11:21 AM'][quote name='scottym' post='1846031' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:07 PM'][quote name='DavePelz4' post='1845945' date='Jul 27 2009, 10:30 AM']"Cameron created a historical registry for his putters"

Was that historical or hysterical?[/quote]


What was the purpose of this post?

Is it informative, constructive, insightful, clever.. anything??

Or is it just another devisive cheap shot that isn't even funny?
[/quote]
You don't find it funny when someone pays $80 to have them say "we don't know the exact amount made. It could be 1 of 5 or less than 5 like the site says."?

Lighten up, Francis.

Is there any purpose to your post besides trying to pick a fight?
[/quote]

1) The cost of Authentication is $65 not $80. Try to get a piece of jewelry inspected, analyzed, photographed from three angles, registered in a national database, and receive a certificate of authenticity for less.
2) The registry only includes putters that have been sent in for authentication. It doesn't claim to include [b]ALL[/b] putters out there.
3) Good Stripes reference, but Don't call me Shirly.
4) The purpose of my post was not to start a fight.

After Ballgame's attempt at an objective, constructive, and well thought out post, I thought "Good, let's all find common ground'.

I was expressing that davePelz' kind of posts are divisive, and not called for.

[blkdiamond]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1846064' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:21 PM']You don't find it funny when someone pays $80 to have them say "we don't know the exact amount made. It could be 1 of 5 or less than 5 like the site says."?

Lighten up, Francis.

Is there any purpose to your post besides trying to pick a fight?[/quote]

To clairify, a COA through the Scotty Cameron Studio is $65, not $80.

Regarding the "fewer than 5" statement on the site, this is a very poor choice of words on their part and they should consider revising the description for the Mini to include the exact number. The fact that they say "fewer than 5" indicates to me that they don't know exactly how many were made, which seems odd and unfortunate.

Here is something for everyone to chew on. What if it is confirmed that there really are 8, complete SC Mini's, would the value ($35-40k) drop?