Swing weight factors in relation to parts

[Stuart_G]

Why are manufacturers making driver heads so heavy?

 

I just bought a swingweight scale and am trying to add consistency through the bag by getting my clubs reasonably close to each other and ascending in weight from driver through wedge.

 

Even with relatively light shafts and short lengths it's hard to get my driver down below D3 or D4. I measured the static weight and it's around 200 grams which seems to be about average for driver heads. Seems much more reasonable to put weight ports and the option for a very light (as light as possible) cover for the port and then ascending weight in 5 gram increments. But, realistically if you're going to run a shaft over 60 grams it seems there's no way to get under D5 or D6 without counterweighting.

 

I love the ball flight of my hybrids, but I achieve that through heavy shafts. As a result they have very high swingweight. If I gain a point or two through the bag my irons and wedges would have to be in the E range. Seems ridiculous.

 

You said it yourself, your head weight is around 200 gm which is completely normal and has been for a while. The problem isn't that the driver head weight is high, the problem in keeping the SW down is that the lengths have been getting longer and longer. Instead of going lighter with the head, you are much better off going shorter with the playing length - especially if better consistency is your goal.

[Matt J]

Why are manufacturers making driver heads so heavy?

 

I just bought a swingweight scale and am trying to add consistency through the bag by getting my clubs reasonably close to each other and ascending in weight from driver through wedge.

 

Even with relatively light shafts and short lengths it's hard to get my driver down below D3 or D4. I measured the static weight and it's around 200 grams which seems to be about average for driver heads. Seems much more reasonable to put weight ports and the option for a very light (as light as possible) cover for the port and then ascending weight in 5 gram increments. But, realistically if you're going to run a shaft over 60 grams it seems there's no way to get under D5 or D6 without counterweighting.

 

I love the ball flight of my hybrids, but I achieve that through heavy shafts. As a result they have very high swingweight. If I gain a point or two through the bag my irons and wedges would have to be in the E range. Seems ridiculous.

 

You said it yourself, your head weight is around 200 gm which is completely normal and has been for a while. The problem isn't that the driver head weight is high, the problem in keeping the SW down is that the lengths have been getting longer and longer. Instead of going lighter with the head, you are much better off going shorter with the playing length - especially if better consistency is your goal.

 

Actually I'm very consistent and like the extra distance of the longer shaft, just don't want a driver at E swingweight.

 

Just seems like it would be pretty easy to put options for adding weight and a lot easier than removing it.

 

I've got a few projects I'm going to play with to try and get my woods reasonably well matched, just defies logic that woods are playing heavier than wedges these days.

[MIRAMAR]

IMO, swing wt is the cheapest way, (and I do mean CHEAP), of balancing the clubs out. I much perfer taking the heads off of the shafts, weighing the heads and either drilling out wt from the hosel or adding lead tip wt so all the heads are 6-8 grams apart from each other. This makes for a very nice feeling set of clubs with proper shafts lengths.

 

For those of you that think this is way too difficult, it isn't. If one has any mechanical skill at all this is a very easy process, you just need the tools and they aren't all that expensive.

 

How drilling or even sawing down the hosel would affect flex, CG, sweetspot location, kick point, swingweight, launch etc, generally speaking?

[Matt J]

I think he's just talking about boring the depth a little deeper if it's heavy and adding a little lead if it's light.

 

Shouldn't effect COG in a measurable way.

 

I like the idea although I'd probably just epoxy a tip weight in if it's light.

[MIRAMAR]

IMO, swing wt is the cheapest way, (and I do mean CHEAP), of balancing the clubs out. I much perfer taking the heads off of the shafts, weighing the heads and either drilling out wt from the hosel or adding lead tip wt so all the heads are 6-8 grams apart from each other. This makes for a very nice feeling set of clubs with proper shafts lengths.

 

For those of you that think this is way too difficult, it isn't. If one has any mechanical skill at all this is a very easy process, you just need the tools and they aren't all that expensive.

 

If the hosel bore is tapered rather than parallel, wouldn't drilling it deeper be a serious problem? I mean, the bottom of the cavity, which was tapered, will become parallel or more parallel -- since you are using a "parallel" drill.

 

I'm recovering a set of old Tourney Customs with extra long hosels, so there is plenty of material either to drill the bore deeper AND/OR saw the hosel down or roughening it outside.

 

Clubhead weights are:

 

#2: 244 gr.

#3: 247

#4: 253

#5: 260

#6: 268

#7: 274

#8: 275 !!!

#9: 284

#10: 291

 

Thx for any clues.

[MIRAMAR]

[quote name='MIRA

 

How drilling or even sawing down the hosel would affect flex, CG, sweetspot location, kick point, swingweight, launch etc, generally speaking?

 

IMO, swing wt is the cheapest way, (and I do mean CHEAP), of balancing the clubs out. I much perfer taking the heads off of the shafts, weighing the heads and either drilling out wt from the hosel or adding lead tip wt so all the heads are 6-8 grams apart from each other. This makes for a very nice feeling set of clubs with proper shafts lengths.

 

For those of you that think this is way too difficult, it isn't. If one has any mechanical skill at all this is a very easy process, you just need the tools and they aren't all that expensive.

 

How drilling or even sawing down the hosel would affect flex, CG, sweetspot location, kick point, swingweight, launch etc, generally speaking?

 

Sorry, this was unintendedly copied, glued and posted. I meant to add the second post only.

[Stuart_G]

If the hosel bore is tapered rather than parallel, wouldn't drilling it deeper be a serious problem? I mean, the bottom of the cavity, which was tapered, will become parallel or more parallel -- since you are using a "parallel" drill.

 

For that approach one should use a drill bit with a maximum diameter slightly smaller than the shaft tip so as to remove material but not change the insertion depth of the shaft. In fact, not sure but I think it's common to start with a very small diameter, and gradually increase the bit diameter until you get the final hole size you want. If the drilling is properly centered, it wont have any impact on a possible taper.

 

If you have no experience drilling/milling metal - I'd find someone that does. This is not a job that can typically be done without the right tools and technique. Or maybe a better way to say it is that it's a job that is possible but can easily be messed up w/o them. e.g. A good drill press, the right bit, the right drill speed and material removal rate, proper mounting of the head, and proper lubrication.

[MIRAMAR]

If the hosel bore is tapered rather than parallel, wouldn't drilling it deeper be a serious problem?

 

If you have no experience drilling/milling metal - I'd find someone that does. This is not a job that can typically be done without the right

 

Thx for clarifying, sound advice! Just need to know whether is there anything like a standard, or ideal, iron club head weight? Let's say, a 6 iron shd ideally weigh 260 grams, for example.

[Stuart_G]

Well the 'standard' is rough at best and is not necessarily the same thing as ideal - since different playing lengths, different shaft weights and balance points, and different preferences for SW/MOI will really dictate what the ideal head weight is.

 

But yes roughly 260-262 for a 6 iron and about ~7 gm increments between irons for SW matching and 1/2" length increments.

[MIRAMAR]

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in. I was reading through and joey3108 said something that made me wonder about an issue with my irons. I had mine reshafted and made 3/4' longer. When I picked them up my 7 iron was D6 and I was told they were all D6

I played them throughout the summer and thought some felt heavier than others but thought it was just me.

A friend of mine just bought a scale and here is what I found

3 iron D8 415 grms.

4 iron D9 410 grms.

5 iron D9 420 grms.

6 iron D7 420 grms.

7 iron D6.5 420 grms.

8 iron D7.5 425 grms.

9 iron D5.5 435 grms.

PW D6 445 grms.

52W D5.5 480 grms.

56W D6 480 grms

60W D4 480 grms.

How can I get the swing weight down in my long irons without adding weight under the grips? You said that you felt counter weighting was like cheating. I know it would take 5 grms added to the butt end just to change 1 SW point that seems like a lot of weight to be adding. Is there some other way?

 

Depending on what heads you got, there might be an option for a skilled club maker to hosel bore out some weight from the heads. Its done by using a smaller diameter than the shaft, so insertion dept for the shaft remains the same. Some irons already got a hosel bore as a weight pocket, and then its very limited.

Thx for all your posts & pragmatic, no-nonsense approach, learning a lot.

Creating a hollow cavity below bottom of bore couldn't possibly affect performance/playability in unforeseen ways? Or weaken the hosel too much in case you need to alter lie/loft? Changing a set of ol' Tourney Customs with extra long hosel bore (1.40"), so theres plenty of material to work with. Thought about milling hosels some 2-3 mm AND drilling the bore deeper for the more overweighted heads . I'd like to reduce total weight and sort head weights but increase a little bit from D1 in the end.

[TourGrind]

OK, here is my question:

Could anyone estimate a new swing weight after the shaft swap?

 

1. Forged MP iron set DGR300 (taper tip 127g. standard weight) +1/2" - factory swing weight - D2

2. New shaft 109g +1" , grip 50g + 2 layers of tape under

[Whiskey_fire]

new m2 45.75 long,56 gram shaft. I put in my 74 gram shaft at 45 inch long. Am I correct the my driver now would be D0.5?

[CallTaylor]

Why are manufacturers making driver heads so heavy?

 

I just bought a swingweight scale and am trying to add consistency through the bag by getting my clubs reasonably close to each other and ascending in weight from driver through wedge.

 

Even with relatively light shafts and short lengths it's hard to get my driver down below D3 or D4. I measured the static weight and it's around 200 grams which seems to be about average for driver heads. Seems much more reasonable to put weight ports and the option for a very light (as light as possible) cover for the port and then ascending weight in 5 gram increments. But, realistically if you're going to run a shaft over 60 grams it seems there's no way to get under D5 or D6 without counterweighting.

 

I love the ball flight of my hybrids, but I achieve that through heavy shafts. As a result they have very high swingweight. If I gain a point or two through the bag my irons and wedges would have to be in the E range. Seems ridiculous.

 

You said it yourself, your head weight is around 200 gm which is completely normal and has been for a while. The problem isn't that the driver head weight is high, the problem in keeping the SW down is that the lengths have been getting longer and longer. Instead of going lighter with the head, you are much better off going shorter with the playing length - especially if better consistency is your goal.

 

Actually I'm very consistent and like the extra distance of the longer shaft, just don't want a driver at E swingweight.

 

Just seems like it would be pretty easy to put options for adding weight and a lot easier than removing it.

 

I've got a few projects I'm going to play with to try and get my woods reasonably well matched, just defies logic that woods are playing heavier than wedges these days.

So Matt, what don't you like about counter weighting in a driver? There's a few shafts out currently that do help with swingweight. The hzrdus yellow or Kiyoshi HB come to mind. I also have a black reign prototype that has a bit of backweighting.

Also, I agree with you on the driver length. I'm so tired of seeing good shafts that I would purchase show up here for sale only to read that they are glorified 3 wood shafts. Lol. Why give up distance by cutting the shaft down? Just work on your swing and groove it with a longer shaft :) or....here's a lovely thought....why don't you guys who like a 44 or 44.5 inch long driver take a 45.5 inch driver and grip down an inch? Then you don't have to cut the shaft down and someone like me could buy it when you want to sell it. Hahahahaha

[rufus25]

Hello - sorry if this isn't the best post/topic to ask this long-winded question, but with Stuart and Howard commenting I figured I would give it a shot.

 

In a stroke of luck, I have been able to work from home a bit recently (I live in Chicago and it's not quite nice enough for me to play golf yet). I say this because I've been doing plenty of procrastinating reading the forums and nerding out in these club building/fitting discussions. Anyway, last November I went through a Club Champion fitting which was okay, but I didn't immediately pull the trigger on any changes. For the driver, I was put into an Callaway 816 Double Black Diamond, 9 degrees, 45" Project X Hzrdus Black 75 6.0, and D7 swingweight. I snagged the stock 816 with a stiff Aldila Rogue I/O 60 over the Thanksgiving CPO sale and tried it "as is" on a trip to Torrey Pines; while I hit a few solid drives, it was fairly inconsistent for me. That led me to search for the Hzrdus shaft, which I picked up recently.

 

I have not hit it yet, but after reading Howard's DIY fitting post I started to think about my setup and club specs. I used the simple swingweight calculator and found that it was quite heavy - I came up with the balance point at 34.375" from the grip end, and the club weighed 326g (NDMC standard grip with 2 wraps - at least I requested 2 wraps). That shows as E1 bordering on E2, which shocked me. Then I measured the club and it came out to be a shade under 46", which is even longer than the stock length of 45.5" and is driving the heavy swingweight. Based on the initial post in this thread, butt-cutting almost an inch off the driver to get to 45" would be 5-6 swingweight points, correct? So that would put me around D5-D6 range? I'll likely put on a Lamkin i6 3gen standard grip with 2 wraps/3 wraps under the bottom hand. Would I need to take anything else into consideration when trimming an inch?

 

When I started researching swingweights, etc after purchasing the shaft, I thought D7 was pretty heavy. But then I went back to a driver that I used to hit quite well - an old 45.5" Razr Fit 9 degree with an Aldila NV 75X shaft. Based on my (crude) calculations, I measured that one at D9 (33.5" balance point, 335g). So perhaps D7 will work for me. I've been reading quite a bit on the shorter driver threads, so I definitely don't want to go the full 46", and am leaning toward 45" or possibly 44.75" - I need to try the DIY though (I picked up a few Graffaloy Blue 75X shafts to play around with...and I might have snagged a Great Big Bertha during the recent ebay sales...ho gonna ho).

 

Any help or thoughts would be appreciated - if you need more information, please let me know. I have a member/guest tournament with my dad in Florida at the end of the month, and I'd like to adjust the driver prior.

 

Also, one final question. The Hzrdus 75g 6.0 shaft with Callaway adapter and standard NMDC weighed 129g (shaft from grip end to tip was 44.75"). The stock Aldila Rogue I/O 60 was 127g with the same grip. Does that sound right / within tolerances? I would have expected the Hzrdus to be heavier by a wider margin given the stock weight listings for each (75g vs. 65g) and the extra length.

[sbboudreau]

I've been doing a little research in the area of Counterbalanced shafts, adding weight to the butt end. Could i get some helpful advice, Pro's and Con's about the procedure? How much weight compared to specific clubs etc. and what effect does this have in relation to Swing weight?

Thanks a bunch

[Stuart_G]

I've been doing a little research in the area of Counterbalanced shafts, adding weight to the butt end. Could i get some helpful advice, Pro's and Con's about the procedure? How much weight compared to specific clubs etc. and what effect does this have in relation to Swing weight?

Thanks a bunch

 

The only helpful advice is that if you are curious about true counterbalancing (which is different from using a counterbalanced shaft) - you have to actually go out and experiment with your real swing hitting balls. Forget any relationship with swing weight. It really needs to be pure trial and error. The only pros and cons come from how the change in feel may impact your swing and results. And that is highly subjective and very unpredictable.

[NedC]

How about adding weight the bottom of the shaft, just above the hosel? How many grams do I need to add right above the hosel to increase 1 swingweight point? Thanks!

2 grams

[tigergs14]

This is so helpful! Thanks for the post!!

[tigergs14]

Can someone help confirm I have this right for my club build?

 

Head - Titleist T-MB 4 iron

Shaft - AD DI 95x 1/2" long

Grip - Golf prize Z-cord

 

Standard swingweight should be D2 w/ stock S300 shaft (130g). Swing weight calculation:

- +3 swing weights - Shaft length

- -4 swing weights - lighter shaft

- +0 - standard grip

 

Result - D1, which means I could 2 grams worth of lead tape to the back of the head to get it back to D2.

 

Am I thinking about all of that right?

[fillwelix]

Going from standard to midsize grip? Does that change the swingweight 1 point?

[Stuart_G]

Going from standard to midsize grip? Does that change the swingweight 1 point?

 

It will change what the swing weight scale will read - but there are different opinions on whether it actually changes the real swing weight of the club. Many see the true swing weight as what the scale would read if the club only had a 50 gm grip and changing grip weight doesn't really change the true swing weight of the club.

[fillwelix]

Going from standard to midsize grip? Does that change the swingweight 1 point?

 

It will change what the swing weight scale will read - but there are different opinions on whether it actually changes the real swing weight of the club. Many see the true swing weight as what the scale would read if the club only had a 50 gm grip and changing grip weight doesn't really change the true swing weight of the club.

Thanks!

[Buddy5z]

Great info

[markjinc]

Will the change in SW, say going from D1 to D6 in your driver (by adding headweight via hotmelt) make a shaft play softer to flex? I like heavier driver heads and am wondering if I should be tipping my driver shaft at all.

[Stuart_G]

Will the change in SW, say going from D1 to D6 in your driver (by adding headweight via hotmelt) make a shaft play softer to flex? I like heavier driver heads and am wondering if I should be tipping my driver shaft at all.

 

Yes. Added head weight will soften the shaft.

 

Long answer - whether or not it's a noticeable amount or warrants tipping is a bit more complicated. The very rough rule of thumb is that each 10 gm's above the 200 gm driver 'standard' head weight (~6 SW pts) might warrant an extra 1/2" of tipping. But that really depends on a lot of factors. The specifics of the players swing mechanics, how good a fit the bend profile was to begin with, what that bend profile is (and parallel tip length) can factor into how the shaft will respond to tipping, how sensitive the player is to changes in the bend profile, if any tipping was done as part of the 'normal' build (e.g. Titleist and TM may tip more than the shaft manufacturers recommend).

 

Short answer - if you are already playing with that heavier head weight and don't notice any problem with the feel of the shaft or the ball flight, then it probably doesn't warrant going back and doing any additional tipping.

[markjinc]

Will the change in SW, say going from D1 to D6 in your driver (by adding headweight via hotmelt) make a shaft play softer to flex? I like heavier driver heads and am wondering if I should be tipping my driver shaft at all.

 

Yes. Added head weight will soften the shaft.

 

Long answer - whether or not it's a noticeable amount or warrants tipping is a bit more complicated. The very rough rule of thumb is that each 10 gm's above the 200 gm driver 'standard' head weight (~6 SW pts) might warrant an extra 1/2" of tipping. But that really depends on a lot of factors. The specifics of the players swing mechanics, how good a fit the bend profile was to begin with, what that bend profile is (and parallel tip length) can factor into how the shaft will respond to tipping, how sensitive the player is to changes in the bend profile, if any tipping was done as part of the 'normal' build (e.g. Titleist and TM may tip more than the shaft manufacturers recommend).

 

Short answer - if you are already playing with that heavier head weight and don't notice any problem with the feel of the shaft or the ball flight, then it probably doesn't warrant going back and doing any additional tipping.

Thank you - that's exactly what I needed to learn. Much appreciated.

[ddetts]

A real generic question here about swing weight. Would going from a constant weight 110g shaft to a constant weight 120g shaft make the swing weight 1 point lighter? E.g. if swing weight of the iron was at a D3 with the 110g shaft it would then be a D2 after swapping in the 120g shaft (all other things like grip, head, length, etc. remaining equal?

 

From the first post in this thread:

"9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point"

[Stuart_G]

A real generic question here about swing weight. Would going from a constant weight 110g shaft to a constant weight 120g shaft make the swing weight 1 point lighter? E.g. if swing weight of the iron was at a D3 with the 110g shaft it would then be a D2 after swapping in the 120g shaft (all other things like grip, head, length, etc. remaining equal?

 

From the first post in this thread:

"9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point"

 

IF the shaft balance point stays the same, no, it's the opposite. The heavier shaft will give a heavier swing weight. (the c.g. of the shaft is on the head side of the SW scale fulcrum point).

 

Unfortunately, that's the worst and least accurate of all the 'rules'. The shaft balance point plays as big a role in the influence on SW as the shaft weight and that balance point can vary quite a bit among different shafts. The reality is the SW could go either way or stay the same. IF you really want to know what a shaft change will do, you need to check it on a SW scale.

[ddetts]

A real generic question here about swing weight. Would going from a constant weight 110g shaft to a constant weight 120g shaft make the swing weight 1 point lighter? E.g. if swing weight of the iron was at a D3 with the 110g shaft it would then be a D2 after swapping in the 120g shaft (all other things like grip, head, length, etc. remaining equal?

 

From the first post in this thread:

"9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point"

 

IF the shaft balance point stays the same, no, it's the opposite. The heavier shaft will give a heavier swing weight. (the c.g. of the shaft is on the head side of the SW scale fulcrum point).

 

Unfortunately, that's the worst and least accurate of all the 'rules'. The shaft balance point plays as big a role in the influence on SW as the shaft weight and that balance point can vary quite a bit among different shafts. The reality is the SW could go either way or stay the same. IF you really want to know what a shaft change will do, you need to check it on a SW scale.

 

Ok, that makes sense. I guess the 10g difference will change approximately 1 swing weight point so really wouldn't probably notice to much of a variance either way.

[Stuart_G]

If the difference really is only 1 sw pt, then yes, you may not notice it. But as I said, it all depends on the balance point. I've seen one case where going to a 10 gm heavier shaft reduced the SW by 3-4 pts. Don't rely on any assumptions.