Mac O'Grady's Swing ... what can we learn?

[Siteseer2]

The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work

PS....I'll also add for the Hogan chasers, that the whole lay-the-club off is a fallacy and Bertrand and others in search of Hogan by manipulating the hands/shaft in the downswing...if the sequencing is right, the pressure points and the pivot planes the sweetspot to the elbowplane, and it is NOT a a laying down of the shaft or purposeful manipulation of the clubhead...jat. This probably goes for the Sashko M crowd (and dare i say Como??) as well, who are trying to keep the handpath more shallow than the sweetspot plane!!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1418744917' post='10600733']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418740444' post='10600387']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418685979' post='10597989']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418680529' post='10597599']
[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1418666626' post='10596397']
I imagine if you got Mac O Grady to wear a mizunojoe mask and demonstrate the pattern then there would be still be some nitpicking.....

But kudos for having a go (If and when the video appears)
[/quote]

It won't help that I'm short waisted and armed either, so getting to p4 like Mac with a dime squeezed under the right armpit, is hard. Just getting used to that finger grip with the huge #3 Accum, and the forbidden flat left wrist at address is a challenge, but pretty sure I can match his hip speed. Stopping the arms at p6 like the other guy inthe video says Mac told him to do, is the most problematic. There will be a smorgasbord of nits to pick.
[/quote]

Here is my latest attempt at the face on side:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKeHqBr-Djk&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[/quote]

Holy Cow, I'm impressed on several levels. First you are hitting those positions so close, I'm wondering why I'm even in this contest now. The only diff I see is you're going full roll in the follow through. Looks like Mac's angle hinging. Also, are you still using the standard grip, instead of the finger grip? Second, that comparison video is awesome, if only I had access to it.
[/quote]

I thought your contest was with eightiron because he kept smarting off to you? After you guys post your swing, would you mind sharing how you go about learning new patterns so quickly? What you look at, how you prioritize what moves to work on etc? I bet a lot of people would really benefit from that kind of insight.
[/quote]

Anyone who's into TGM is used to experimenting with diff components, and it helps to be tinkerer/experimenter type. Some things in this MORAD exercise are outside the scope of TGM though, like the finger grip.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work
[/quote]

Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418748971' post='10601057'] [quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991'] The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work [/quote] Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads? [/quote]

My understanding about what he usually said back then was this: CF takes the club from P6 to P8, and the pivot keeps trucking along just to keep up and meet the arms at P8, but the clubhead is being driven by forces on the outside of the circle--ie, external to muscle inputs.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418749517' post='10601105']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418748971' post='10601057'] [quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991'] The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work [/quote] Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads? [/quote]

My understanding about what he usually said back then was this: CF takes the club from P6 to P8, and the pivot keeps trucking along just to keep up and meet the arms at P8, but the clubhead is being driven by forces on the outside of the circle--ie, external to muscle inputs.
[/quote]

Yes that's the freewheeling of the uncocking left wrist from p6 to impact, but it's the hips that that go on trucking, not the shoulders, according to the Vimeos. Mac says they stop. Up to that point, it is like a 3 barrel TGM Swing, which then, unlike the MORAD patrern, continues driving the right shoulder. The Vimeos make it clear, in the MORAD pattern, it's the hips that pull the arms through, by the tilt and translating waist bend into side bend, as McCord says right shoulder moves down 5" as hips simultaneously move left 5". Mac makes the point that maintaining spine angle is the key to this swing.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418748971' post='10601057']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work
[/quote]

Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads?
[/quote]

Then release 2/3 like he says. It is to show what happens through impact. Did u watch or read the cliff notes?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418740444' post='10600387']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418685979' post='10597989']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418680529' post='10597599']
[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1418666626' post='10596397']
I imagine if you got Mac O Grady to wear a mizunojoe mask and demonstrate the pattern then there would be still be some nitpicking.....

But kudos for having a go (If and when the video appears)
[/quote]

It won't help that I'm short waisted and armed either, so getting to p4 like Mac with a dime squeezed under the right armpit, is hard. Just getting used to that finger grip with the huge #3 Accum, and the forbidden flat left wrist at address is a challenge, but pretty sure I can match his hip speed. Stopping the arms at p6 like the other guy inthe video says Mac told him to do, is the most problematic. There will be a smorgasbord of nits to pick.
[/quote]

Here is my latest attempt at the face on side:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKeHqBr-Djk&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[/quote]

Holy Cow, I'm impressed on several levels. First you are hitting those positions so close, I'm wondering why I'm even in this contest now. The only diff I see is you're going full roll in the follow through. Looks like Mac's angle hinging. Also, are you still using the standard grip, instead of the finger grip? Second, that comparison video is awesome, if only I had access to it.
[/quote]

That Mac vid has been on youtube for a while:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTI97ayoJmM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTI97ayoJmM[/url]

also, DTL:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0HGo1WGlM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0HGo1WGlM[/url]

[whatshannenin]

"Ah a toast to the good life"

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work

PS....I'll also add for the Hogan chasers, that the whole lay-the-club off is a fallacy and Bertrand and others in search of Hogan by manipulating the hands/shaft in the downswing...if the sequencing is right, the pressure points and the pivot planes the sweetspot to the elbowplane, and it is NOT a a laying down of the shaft or purposeful manipulation of the clubhead...jat. This probably goes for the Sashko M crowd (and dare i say Como??) as well, who are trying to keep the handpath more shallow than the sweetspot plane!!
[/quote]

Forgot to ask, who is Doc who is sequencing out parts? In my MORAD swing, from p4, the shoulder drop and lateral hip move take me to p6, and the stall is simply fighting my every natural instinct to drive the right shoulder in addition to the delayed hip turn, keeping the shoulders torqued up.

As for Hogan, it's as clear as can be that he moves his hands directly at the ball from the top after making a very subtle over the top shoulder move, which slightly steepens the shaft from slightly laid off. That's what I see.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1418754988' post='10601643']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418748971' post='10601057']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work
[/quote]

Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads?
[/quote]

Then release 2/3 like he says. It is to show what happens through impact. Did u watch or read the cliff notes?
[/quote]

What cliff notes? And why are you whizing on my Jeep?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1418758425' post='10601899']
"Ah a toast to the good life"
[/quote]

".......better golfing days ahead"

Sept 10, 1986

[Pinsplitter59]

"PS....I'll also add for the Hogan chasers, that the whole lay-the-club off is a fallacy and Bertrand and others in search of Hogan by manipulating the hands/shaft in the downswing..."
Good to hear that said.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1418746726' post='10600879']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418745235' post='10600755']
Good point Jacob, I'll try to give more detail about what I'm trying to do as I go forward.
[/quote]

Very interesting thread and good swing here of virtuoso. If you don't mind I would like to ask, if you do use your arms in the down swing intentionally or if you 'transport' them by your pivot motion?
[/quote]

hey Golf nerd, I feel very little if any independent movement in my upper arms, but feel quite a bit at the forearms and wrists. But not in the sense that I'm motivating those movements, at least not on the downswing. For most of the downswing, I feel like the club is trying to be pulled away from me and I'm resisting all the way. I never assist the throw out. I do try to make sure that my right elbow gives up to the throw out before my wrists. Later, on the follow through, I let my wrists recapture the club before my elbows.

In this session, I was working on right side bending between P4 and P5, so I could get an even better connection between my arms and torso. If i side bend better, i can keep the elbows in front of me and still have the club on a good downswing plane. Right now, if my right shoulder stays high in transition and moves out, I have to dump my arms behind me to hit the ball decent. It's probably more sequence related than position. When i start my hips down too early, it makes my right shoulder race out. Moving my shoulders up and to a flatter plane going back also sets the stage for a bad shoulder move coming back.

So, in summary, my work is almost always pivot related as opposed to arm related.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-DCvrE1g0g&list=UU8KnRUrVF2cOn_VC6U4ZMNQ[/media]

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418759025' post='10601941']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1418754988' post='10601643']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418748971' post='10601057']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work
[/quote]

Then explain what it is when Mac told the guy in the video to STOP his arms at p6. You only do that by stalling the shoulders, which Mac Says to do in the video, paraphrasing, he says the shoulders move first and then stop, how is that not a stall? Or maybe when Mac gives a clinic he misleads?
[/quote]

Then release 2/3 like he says. It is to show what happens through impact. Did u watch or read the cliff notes?
[/quote]

What cliff notes? And why are you whizing on my Jeep?
[/quote]

He doesn't like american made products

[ej002]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418758848' post='10601931']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work

PS....I'll also add for the Hogan chasers, that the whole lay-the-club off is a fallacy and Bertrand and others in search of Hogan by manipulating the hands/shaft in the downswing...if the sequencing is right, the pressure points and the pivot planes the sweetspot to the elbowplane, and it is NOT a a laying down of the shaft or purposeful manipulation of the clubhead...jat. This probably goes for the Sashko M crowd (and dare i say Como??) as well, who are trying to keep the handpath more shallow than the sweetspot plane!!
[/quote]

Forgot to ask, who is Doc who is sequencing out parts? In my MORAD swing, from p4, the shoulder drop and lateral hip move take me to p6, and the stall is simply fighting my every natural instinct to drive the right shoulder in addition to the delayed hip turn, keeping the shoulders torqued up.

As for Hogan, it's as clear as can be that he moves his hands directly at the ball from the top after making a very subtle over the top shoulder move, which slightly steepens the shaft from slightly laid off. That's what I see.
[/quote]
Lake on here.

[scotee]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418760294' post='10602049']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1418746726' post='10600879']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418745235' post='10600755']
Good point Jacob, I'll try to give more detail about what I'm trying to do as I go forward.
[/quote]

Very interesting thread and good swing here of virtuoso. If you don't mind I would like to ask, if you do use your arms in the down swing intentionally or if you 'transport' them by your pivot motion?
[/quote]

hey Golf nerd, I feel very little if any independent movement in my upper arms, but feel quite a bit at the forearms and wrists. But not in the sense that I'm motivating those movements, at least not on the downswing. For most of the downswing, I feel like the club is trying to be pulled away from me and I'm resisting all the way. I never assist the throw out. I do try to make sure that my right elbow gives up to the throw out before my wrists. Later, on the follow through, I let my wrists recapture the club before my elbows.

In this session, I was working on right side bending between P4 and P5, so I could get an even better connection between my arms and torso. If i side bend better, i can keep the elbows in front of me and still have the club on a good downswing plane. Right now, if my right shoulder stays high in transition and moves out, I have to dump my arms behind me to hit the ball decent. It's probably more sequence related than position. When i start my hips down too early, it makes my right shoulder race out. Moving my shoulders up and to a flatter plane going back also sets the stage for a bad shoulder move coming back.

So, in summary, my work is almost always pivot related as opposed to arm related.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-DCvrE1g0g&list=UU8KnRUrVF2cOn_VC6U4ZMNQ[/media]
[/quote]
Maybe it's some mannerisms and the finish but to my untrained eye I see quite a bit of Elkington in your swing. I mean that as a compliment.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1418763883' post='10602343']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418758848' post='10601931']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1418748076' post='10600991']
The way that someone uses words is SO important...Mac never taught a "stall", was not part of his vernacular...he reattached pressure points at p4.4-5, and created torso tilt by his pivot, and from there let his pivot train carry his arms around to stay on the circle. Now, Doc has improved the model, imo, by sequencing out the parts....therefore what looks like a "stall" into p6 is actually staying in external rotation with the right shoulder and not pronating the right forearm...this allows the power package to stay on the elbow plane into delivery point. jat for the model chasers... without giving away Mac's life work

PS....I'll also add for the Hogan chasers, that the whole lay-the-club off is a fallacy and Bertrand and others in search of Hogan by manipulating the hands/shaft in the downswing...if the sequencing is right, the pressure points and the pivot planes the sweetspot to the elbowplane, and it is NOT a a laying down of the shaft or purposeful manipulation of the clubhead...jat. This probably goes for the Sashko M crowd (and dare i say Como??) as well, who are trying to keep the handpath more shallow than the sweetspot plane!!
[/quote]

Forgot to ask, who is Doc who is sequencing out parts? In my MORAD swing, from p4, the shoulder drop and lateral hip move take me to p6, and the stall is simply fighting my every natural instinct to drive the right shoulder in addition to the delayed hip turn, keeping the shoulders torqued up.

As for Hogan, it's as clear as can be that he moves his hands directly at the ball from the top after making a very subtle over the top shoulder move, which slightly steepens the shaft from slightly laid off. That's what I see.
[/quote]
Lake on here.
[/quote]

Thanks, I recall that name from way back, seems to know a lot about MORAD.

[northgolf]

sheesh, not enough LSD in the world for me to get to this level of navel gazing.

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1418687085' post='10598077']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418686153' post='10598001']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1418685217' post='10597953']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418684979' post='10597935']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1418682540' post='10597775']
Hogan? I think he's working the opposite direction Hogan is the entire downswing and through impact. Can say the same for Mac. EJ is moving opposite direction they are coming down
[/quote]

I understand that EJ steepens the shaft in transition instead of flattening like Hogan. But, from P6 to P8, EJ still looks fantastic. Way better through that zone than almost all amateurs I've seen. Not exactly Hogan with the wrist alignments, but still Hogan-ish compared to others, in my opinion.
[/quote]

I guess depends on perspective. I see steep vs. flat shoulder plane. Punch vs. Pitch elbow. And baselines moving opposite directions. Also guess it depends on what level of amateurs you're used to seeing. I see a lot of ams with good swings.
[/quote]

Fair enough iteach. You're the last person I'd argue with about swing analysis.
[/quote]

It's really about details. If you paint with a broad enough stroke everything looks the same. But it's the details that generally matter the most. I prefer to look at the motion and the direction its moving/headed rather than single frames or positions. How it got to the position matters way more than the position it gets to, at least as far as results go.
[/quote]

No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1418778199' post='10603505']
sheesh, not enough LSD in the world for me to get to this level of navel gazing.
[/quote]

LOL, I couldn't feel offended to the full effect until I looked it up. I had heard the term "naval gazing" before but never knew what it meant. I love it!

[virtuoso]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']

No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418778789' post='10603567']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']

No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.
[/quote]

Your swing is so good I can't believe it. Can I come and see you hit it ? (I have 80's MORAD raw vids)

[bph7]

Welcome back cary, was beginning to worry, you hadn't been around for a couple days.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']

No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

They are fundamentally opposite. One player has shoulders shifting to a steeper plane with the rear arm working back and behind with shoulders working nearly vertically through impact. The other has shoulders shifting to a flatter plane with rearm in front and elbow leading with shoulders working much more level and around through impact. Couldn't be more opposite. I didn't even get into details like wrist alignments and lil things. Those are quite broad things when every part of the body is going opposite directions in the downswing from each other.

I didn't even say EJ had a bad swing just that it was very very different than Hogan. I didn't bring up a solution because one that wasn't the point and this isn't a golf lesson and secondly because I never even said it was bad. Just different.

Maybe you can't see the differences because you don't have a clue what you are looking at Cary. You see a tree as a tree, a flower as a flower, and a dog as a dog. You don't know what you're looking at well enough to realize that not all of those are the same and we actually break down in subsets and even smaller grouping. You see a nail because all you have is a hammer. Keep spinning your tires Cary and spending time trying to discredit others rather than actually teaching lessons or furthering your own career

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1418781014' post='10603861']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']

No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

They are fundamentally opposite. One player has shoulders shifting to a steeper plane with the rear arm working back and behind with shoulders working nearly vertically through impact. The other has shoulders shifting to a flatter plane with rearm in front and elbow leading with shoulders working much more level and around through impact. Couldn't be more opposite. I didn't even get into details like wrist alignments and lil things. Those are quite broad things when every part of the body is going opposite directions in the downswing from each other.


I didn't even say EJ had a bad swing just that it was very very different than Hogan. I didn't bring up a solution because one that wasn't the point and this isn't a golf lesson and secondly because I never even said it was bad. Just different.



Maybe you can't see the differences because you don't have a clue what you are looking at Cary. You see a tree as a tree, a flower as a flower, and a dog as a dog. You don't know what you're looking at well enough to realize that not all of those are the same and we actually break down in subsets and even smaller grouping. You see a nail because all you have is a hammer. Keep spinning your tires Cary and spending time trying to discredit others rather than actually teaching lessons or furthering your own career
[/quote]


"Every" part of the body ? Could you give your definition for the word opposite ? and every ?

No. You said he has a swing "opposite" of Hogan. And, now you now say that he is swinging "just different" than Hogan. But, I cannot grasp why you used to use the word "opposite"

1) I clearly see some differences. There are some easy differences to see
2) not sure about the tree, and the dog.........water goes in the cup, you become the cup ?
3) why is it that when I suggest an alternative approach you call it discredit others ? You're being a pu$$y
boy
4) how do you know I'm not teaching ? I surely am
5) what if trying to suggest an alternative way of approaching golf is my way of trying to further my career ?

What would be better to know- the movements to be made ? or the inter workings of all the moves that happen as a result of those ?

[pinhigh27]

I want some education, cary every time you make a new name, I'd like your rationale for picking that name, along with it's picture.

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1418783256' post='10604191']
I want some education, cary every time you make a new name, I'd like your rationale for picking that name, along with it's picture.
[/quote]

I have absolutely no rhyme or reason.

For my avatar, I usually like to pick my favorite rock stars like Leon Russel or Frank Zappa or Roger Waters or Dr John.

Sometimes I like to pick on Tiger because I think he's a nerd and he acts silly. Like right now he's getting advice AGAIN from the Science Club. Lee Trevino offered to help him !!!

Names are usually combos of people I know's first name with other things as the last name. Like my name today- John Prine and Emmylou Harris do a song called "Angel from Montgomery"


Mr Pin,

I thank you for your thoughtful inquiry

[virtuoso]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778983' post='10603593']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418778789' post='10603567']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']
No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.
[/quote]

Your swing is so good I can't believe it. Can I come and see you hit it ? (I have 80's MORAD raw vids)
[/quote]

You know I lost all my 80's footage Cary. Don't be cruel like that. I feel like you've pulled up in an old van and offered me candy to get in.

[eightiron]

Cary they are all plus 5 gamers around here with pretty cameras , you can't compete against that!

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418784210' post='10604367']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778983' post='10603593']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418778789' post='10603567']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']
No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.
[/quote]

Your swing is so good I can't believe it. Can I come and see you hit it ? (I have 80's MORAD raw vids)
[/quote]

You know I lost all my 80's footage Cary. Don't be cruel like that. I feel like you've pulled up in an old van and offered me candy to get in.
[/quote]

I swear. I also have him working extensively with Seve.

[attachment=2538359:image.jpg]

Also, I'll let you watch me hit balls which will probably change your life

http://youtu.be/0jVcTohL5j0