Mac O'Grady's Swing ... what can we learn?

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418760294' post='10602049']


So, in summary, my work is almost always pivot related as opposed to arm related.

[/quote]

Thanks for taking time to answer my question, virtuoso.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418785103' post='10604527']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418784210' post='10604367']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778983' post='10603593']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418778789' post='10603567']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']
No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.
[/quote]

Your swing is so good I can't believe it. Can I come and see you hit it ? (I have 80's MORAD raw vids)
[/quote]

You know I lost all my 80's footage Cary. Don't be cruel like that. I feel like you've pulled up in an old van and offered me candy to get in.
[/quote]

I swear. I also have him working extensively with Seve.

[attachment=2538359:image.jpg]

Also, I'll let you watch me hit balls which will probably change your life

[media=]http://youtu.be/0jVcTohL5j0[/media]
[/quote]

I have no doubt that you hit it great. You'd probably have to give me 3 a side.

Let me ask you this. Why are you going after all the other instructors on this site like iteach and Monte? I thought you were all about fighting city hall.

[JD Montgomery]

"I have no doubt that you hit it great. You'd probably have to give me 3 a side.

Let me ask you this. Why are you going after all the other instructors on this site like iteach and Monte? I thought you were all about fighting city hall."


I'll be giving you nothing and you'd probably whoop me. Your swing is so cool, I really want to see it in motion. It has all the upgrade options !!!

I'm not sure what you mean by "go after" ? I fear that you are confusing dissent with attack. I just offer a viewpoint that is alternative to theirs. The same as they like to do with other folks. Monte seems like a cool cat. And smart. I just have a different approach. And if you were to look at every post I've made in the last year, I have never crossed any personal lines with him once. I simply offer a different product in the same industry and am trying to argue that another way is better. Iteach is another story. I think he's a punk, even though I haven't mentioned it till now.

[eightiron]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418785103' post='10604527']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418784210' post='10604367']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778983' post='10603593']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418778789' post='10603567']
[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418778421' post='10603525']
No. It's not about the details. That's the problem. It's about the fundamentals and the details will be the result of those.

To call these swings "opposite" is ludicrous- unless you were referring to EJ standing and swinging at the ball from the opposite side.

It's not even that your findings are necessarily wrong. It's that they are unnecessary. So, in that sense they are wrong to think about during the swinging of a golf club at a ball- if they are shifting your focus from what you should be thinking about.

You guys have this great appreciation for the "cause and effect" of the problems. When you are you going to start talking about the cause and effect of the solution ?
[/quote]

Oh boy, before I got done reading it, I knew this must be post number one for the next muppet. Let the next muppet show begin.
[/quote]

Your swing is so good I can't believe it. Can I come and see you hit it ? (I have 80's MORAD raw vids)
[/quote]

You know I lost all my 80's footage Cary. Don't be cruel like that. I feel like you've pulled up in an old van and offered me candy to get in.
[/quote]

I swear. I also have him working extensively with Seve.

[attachment=2538359:image.jpg]

Also, I'll let you watch me hit balls which will probably change your life

http://youtu.be/0jVcTohL5j0
[/quote]

I'm very surprised the mob hasn't called you out on the camera angle or asked for slow motion shirtless swings

[Hstead]

That swing to me looks like one that has been devastated by the flat left wrist plague that has ruined many a Tour player.

[ej002]

Minte will snap your wedge in half if you cross him

[ej002]

When you give it all the bells and Whistles it looks like 8... [attachment=2538383:image.jpg]

[Golf nerd]

At least we have seen a swing of Cary as x-mas present. Well done. Looking forward to see some more interesting stuff about the 'secret'.

[eightiron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1418790866' post='10605099']
When you give it all the bells and Whistles it looks like 8... [attachment=2538383:image.jpg]
[/quote]

Punch elbow on the Tsp , clearly I'm getting schooled on Wrx again

[JD Montgomery]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1418790866' post='10605099']
When you give it all the bells and Whistles it looks like 8... [attachment=2538383:image.jpg]
[/quote]


Whaaaaat ? Eightiron ? How insulting........

Well, that guy does have the best swing I've seen on WRX so I guess I'll take it.

But, that was before I saw Virtuoso's swing. Now that's CLASS !

[ej002]

Well the angles are the same and you guys are working in the opposite direction. As close as I am to Hogan

[eightiron]

[quote name='JD Montgomery' timestamp='1418791343' post='10605155']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1418790866' post='10605099']
When you give it all the bells and Whistles it looks like 8... [attachment=2538383:image.jpg]
[/quote]


Whaaaaat ? Eightiron ? How insulting........

Well, that guy does have the best swing I've seen on WRX so I guess I'll take it.

But, that was before I saw Virtuoso's swing. Now that's CLASS !
[/quote]

Just wait until you see all the plus 7 gamers swinging their multiple patterns when the ice age is over I'll slip to just inside top 100

[JPGolf FL]

Three dudes standing way too close to each other on the range. Maybe Pierre for your next handle cary?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Not a bad move at all CS. Where is the extension piece post jump thrust?

[lv_2_hack]

Cary your lower body is clearly lying to you.

[eightiron]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1418792935' post='10605277']
Not a bad move at all CS. Where is the extension piece post jump thrust?
[/quote]
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1418796823' post='10605491']
Cary your lower body is clearly lying to you.
[/quote]

He's doing what he prefers , in flexion with the deckchair look . I don't know what EJ guy was looking at because it's opposite to mine . Don't know about jumping out of the ground , I don't try to do that

[attachment=2538443:image.jpg] courtesy of +7 gamer Petter7
[attachment=2538445:image.jpg]

[Lake]

Siteseer is right...the axis tilt drops the press pts of the upper arms back to the body and shallows the shaft...the folks that have gone through MORAD in the last 10 years have been plagued by right shoulders that move out too much from the top...which makes them have to be active early w/ their forearms/hands to get the face closed to play a pull or pull-cut...or they just shut the face down w/ a strong grip and arched left wrist...and if they want to push draw it... the only way to be shallow w/ that model is to suck the arms behind the body...and if you add the closing business associated w/ the pull cut you have a recipe for a snipe...funny thing is Mac doesn't do that when he goes after one...just when he demonstrates the 130yd 7-irons

[ej002]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1418797569' post='10605509']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1418792935' post='10605277']
Not a bad move at all CS. Where is the extension piece post jump thrust?
[/quote]
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1418796823' post='10605491']
Cary your lower body is clearly lying to you.
[/quote]

He's doing what he prefers , in flexion with the deckchair look . I don't know what EJ guy was looking at because it's opposite to mine . Don't know about jumping out of the ground , I don't try to do that

[attachment=2538443:image.jpg] courtesy of +7 gamer Petter7
[attachment=2538445:image.jpg]
[/quote]


I was referencing the camera angle boss

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Lake' timestamp='1418798583' post='10605557']
Siteseer is right...the axis tilt drops the press pts of the upper arms back to the body and shallows the shaft...the folks that have gone through MORAD in the last 10 years have been plagued by right shoulders that move out too much from the top...which makes them have to be active early w/ their forearms/hands to get the face closed to play a pull or pull-cut...or they just shut the face down w/ a strong grip and arched left wrist...and if they want to push draw it... the only way to be shallow w/ that model is to suck the arms behind the body...and if you add the closing business associated w/ the pull cut you have a recipe for a snipe...funny thing is Mac doesn't do that when he goes after one...just when he demonstrates the 130yd 7-irons
[/quote]

Thanks for joining the discussion. In the 80s McCord/O'Grady Clinic Vimeo on Patterson's site, McCord said that the right shoulder drops 5" as the hips move 5" causing the tilt, which would preempt moving shoulder out. Did Mac change/eliminate the 5" shoulder drop in the last 10 yrs? Inthe last 10 yrs, did Mac eliminate the finger grip? Your comments about shutting face with a strong grip sound as though they are using the Palm grip and have strong option, whereas finger grip is always strong.

[petter7]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1418797569' post='10605509']
I don't know what EJ guy was looking at because it's opposite to mine . Don't know about jumping out of the ground , I don't try to do that

courtesy of +7 gamer Petter7
[/quote]

Underpants and all. Really like the kissing knees look at P7.75…nice.

Wow, handicap dropped 2 strokes without hitting a single shot. Three more and I can tee it up on the eGolf Tour.

[eightiron]

[quote name='petter7' timestamp='1418830845' post='10606775']

Underpants and all. Really like the kissing knees look at P7.75…nice.

Wow, handicap dropped 2 strokes without hitting a single shot. Three more and I can tee it up on the eGolf Tour.
[/quote]

I'll give them to you . Plus 10 now gamer , you are ready to take it by storm . My knees don't kiss at p7.798652 but you might have a special 5 dim telescopic eye and a fefish . Check out this old timer , he looks like he's kissing as well

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418824544' post='10606239']
[quote name='Lake' timestamp='1418798583' post='10605557']
Siteseer is right...the axis tilt drops the press pts of the upper arms back to the body and shallows the shaft...the folks that have gone through MORAD in the last 10 years have been plagued by right shoulders that move out too much from the top...which makes them have to be active early w/ their forearms/hands to get the face closed to play a pull or pull-cut...or they just shut the face down w/ a strong grip and arched left wrist...and if they want to push draw it... the only way to be shallow w/ that model is to suck the arms behind the body...and if you add the closing business associated w/ the pull cut you have a recipe for a snipe...funny thing is Mac doesn't do that when he goes after one...just when he demonstrates the 130yd 7-irons
[/quote]

Thanks for joining the discussion. In the 80s McCord/O'Grady Clinic Vimeo on Patterson's site, McCord said that the right shoulder drops 5" as the hips move 5" causing the tilt, which would preempt moving shoulder out. Did Mac change/eliminate the 5" shoulder drop in the last 10 yrs? Inthe last 10 yrs, did Mac eliminate the finger grip? Your comments about shutting face with a strong grip sound as though they are using the Palm grip and have strong option, whereas finger grip is always strong.
[/quote]

I dare you to make a post not containing " finger grip" in it

[xxjonesyxx]

^^ At the risk of annoying pinhigh by mentioning finger grip (Apologies)

Does a finger grip just mean the grip is stronger? as I don't understand what is meant by only needs a quarter as much closure than a normal grip.
Probably well above my pay level , but i would be interested to know the answer...

Thanks,

Neil

[Lake]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1418839938' post='10607543']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418824544' post='10606239']
[quote name='Lake' timestamp='1418798583' post='10605557']
Siteseer is right...the axis tilt drops the press pts of the upper arms back to the body and shallows the shaft...the folks that have gone through MORAD in the last 10 years have been plagued by right shoulders that move out too much from the top...which makes them have to be active early w/ their forearms/hands to get the face closed to play a pull or pull-cut...or they just shut the face down w/ a strong grip and arched left wrist...and if they want to push draw it... the only way to be shallow w/ that model is to suck the arms behind the body...and if you add the closing business associated w/ the pull cut you have a recipe for a snipe...funny thing is Mac doesn't do that when he goes after one...just when he demonstrates the 130yd 7-irons
[/quote]

Thanks for joining the discussion. In the 80s McCord/O'Grady Clinic Vimeo on Patterson's site, McCord said that the right shoulder drops 5" as the hips move 5" causing the tilt, which would preempt moving shoulder out. Did Mac change/eliminate the 5" shoulder drop in the last 10 yrs? Inthe last 10 yrs, did Mac eliminate the finger grip? Your comments about shutting face with a strong grip sound as though they are using the Palm grip and have strong option, whereas finger grip is always strong.
[/quote]

I dare you to make a post not containing " finger grip" in it
[/quote]

Imop the grip is nearly the same...left hand turned 45deg to the right...right hand turned 20deg to the right...the right hand rides very high on the left hand that has a long thumb stretched down the grip (allows more wrist hinge)...so the right hand holds the grip near the end of the fingers.

But the killer is how people interpret CP...they move their baselines too far to the left (rh golfer)...this isn't CP...CP is a combination of proper tilts "at the right time" & hand path...and hand path is up...most folks go low left w/ their hand path or they go low right if they tilt too soon and get under (gets that slingy look).

A lot of the science folks using Gears, Amm, Phantom at the research spots are calling the proper upward motion of the hands normal force...some people go normal too soon (topping/whiffing)...some too late (handle dragging)...some not at all (beef).

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1418839938' post='10607543']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418824544' post='10606239']
[quote name='Lake' timestamp='1418798583' post='10605557']
Siteseer is right...the axis tilt drops the press pts of the upper arms back to the body and shallows the shaft...the folks that have gone through MORAD in the last 10 years have been plagued by right shoulders that move out too much from the top...which makes them have to be active early w/ their forearms/hands to get the face closed to play a pull or pull-cut...or they just shut the face down w/ a strong grip and arched left wrist...and if they want to push draw it... the only way to be shallow w/ that model is to suck the arms behind the body...and if you add the closing business associated w/ the pull cut you have a recipe for a snipe...funny thing is Mac doesn't do that when he goes after one...just when he demonstrates the 130yd 7-irons
[/quote]

Thanks for joining the discussion. In the 80s McCord/O'Grady Clinic Vimeo on Patterson's site, McCord said that the right shoulder drops 5" as the hips move 5" causing the tilt, which would preempt moving shoulder out. Did Mac change/eliminate the 5" shoulder drop in the last 10 yrs? Inthe last 10 yrs, did Mac eliminate the finger grip? Your comments about shutting face with a strong grip sound as though they are using the Palm grip and have strong option, whereas finger grip is always strong.
[/quote]

I dare you to make a post not containing " finger grip" in it
[/quote]

I dare you to make an informative post about the 88 MORAD model.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1418840561' post='10607597']
^^ At the risk of annoying pinhigh by mentioning finger grip (Apologies)

Does a finger grip just mean the grip is stronger? as I don't understand what is meant by only needs a quarter as much closure than a normal grip.
Probably well above my pay level , but i would be interested to know the answer...

Thanks,

Neil
[/quote]

Not a quarter as much closure, but only a 45 deg turn to plane the club face on the BS,instead of 90 degs for palm grip.

[PJ1120]

So was Mac advocating parametric acceleration and 'going normal" 25 years ago....oh my.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418859170' post='10609231']
[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1418840561' post='10607597']
^^ At the risk of annoying pinhigh by mentioning finger grip (Apologies)

Does a finger grip just mean the grip is stronger? as I don't understand what is meant by only needs a quarter as much closure than a normal grip.
Probably well above my pay level , but i would be interested to know the answer...

Thanks,

Neil
[/quote]

Not a quarter as much closure, but only a 45 deg turn to plane the club face on the BS,instead of 90 degs for palm grip.
[/quote]

i think when we start talking about a pre-rotated foream and how it theoretically simplifies the back swing movements, we tend to miss the big picture about what made Mac's 80's swing so great.

In my mind the essense is this: he kept his foreams close together which allowed both of them to control shaft positioning, he kept his upper arms well connected to his torso, which allowed him to coordinate his arm swing with his body rotation, and he had an extremely dynamic pivot with enough side bending to trim unnecessary lateral shifts. And finally, the holy grail, he kept all the slack out of the system--which is to say that the transfer of energy from the rotational centers had very few "bumps in the road" on it's way to the clubhead. That ultimately aids in speed and control of clubface angle.

[Lake]

[quote name='PJ1120' timestamp='1418860260' post='10609311']
So was Mac advocating parametric acceleration and 'going normal" 25 years ago....oh my.
[/quote]

He didn't have that vocabulary...but def stressed getting the hands up to 8 from a low 6...I had never heard that before him...where several TGM instructors during that time had there hands way forward, arched, and low w/ a locked-out right arm

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1418860389' post='10609323']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1418859170' post='10609231']
[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1418840561' post='10607597']
^^ At the risk of annoying pinhigh by mentioning finger grip (Apologies)

Does a finger grip just mean the grip is stronger? as I don't understand what is meant by only needs a quarter as much closure than a normal grip.
Probably well above my pay level , but i would be interested to know the answer...

Thanks,

Neil
[/quote]

Not a quarter as much closure, but only a 45 deg turn to plane the club face on the BS,instead of 90 degs for palm grip.
[/quote]

i think when we start talking about a pre-rotated foream and how it theoretically simplifies the back swing movements, we tend to miss the big picture about what made Mac's 80's swing so great.

In my mind the essense is this: he kept his foreams close together which allowed both of them to control shaft positioning, he kept his upper arms well connected to his torso, which allowed him to coordinate his arm swing with his body rotation, and he had an extremely dynamic pivot with enough side bending to trim unnecessary lateral shifts. And finally, the holy grail, he kept all the slack out of the system--which is to say that the transfer of energy from the rotational centers had very few "bumps in the road" on it's way to the clubhead. That ultimately aids in speed and control of clubface angle.
[/quote]

Yeah, Mac emphasizes keeping the center stable in the McCord Clinic Vimeo. But, it's unclear to me why he says keeping the right elbow well off the torso, and having the left arm across the chest, parallel to the shoulders on the BS, is the key to center stability. The challenge for me is that I've always hit the ball best by moving my upper and lower cg. Also interesting was Mac saying he controlled curvature with one joint, the right elbow. And, I'll look again, because I missed the elbows squeezed together.