GSS vs SS why the hype

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Is there any actual proof it is better?

First off this is not a Scotty bashing thread, Scotty is not the only putter maker to offer GSS. So please do not take it down that road.

I am curious with the popularity of GSS and the impression that it has a superior feel to American Stainless or any other stainless I was wondering does anyone actually have any proof that this is the fact. I have google searched this subject and cant find anything to support it, yet GSS seems to be a popular "benefit" in putters, knifes and surgical tools. Other than the mark up that one would pay to have a GSS putter what benefit would it actually provide?

Now I am sure I will get responses that it feels better etc, but what about any differences in metalurgy that would back that statement up or anything that would support that side other than just saying it feels better?

[BarronDDS]

I really doubt that it makes a bit of difference. Just more expensive to obtain. I would think stainless is stainless. I know nothing about metallurgy (??) though!!

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I figure metalurgy is a subject that most people wont know much detail about including myself, but with a membership on here of 100,000+ I was hoping to find a few that can provide some insight with definitive proof one way or the other.

FWIW IMO it is all hype.

[choeppner]

No difference at all in my opinion.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='choeppner' timestamp='1311472697' post='3417828']
No difference at all in my opinion.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Choeppner, I was hoping some of the putter makers and reps would chime in on this

[502 to Right]

Here's the plan:

Take 303 stainless steel that is no different from any other 303 stainless steel, tell everyone it's better, charge way more $$$, and then rake in the profits.

It's marketing 101. Brilliant.

I would knock Scotty Cameron for deceptive practices but fools are so willing to throw thousands of dollars at him I can't blame him at all.

[choeppner]

Here's a thread from this forum that is about 4 years old. It's got some good insight in it.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/108796-german-stainless-steel-vs-double-aged-stainless-steel/

-Chris

[Pure745]

Since "feel" is subjective... I doubt you will ever find "proof" that GSS>SSS. One of the nicest feeling putters I've rolled was a GSS Cam & Co. with deep milling. The deep milling and face thickness probably had more to do with the feel than the actual GSS.

I think I know why you're asking this.. and I'd say you're safe going the SSS route, and if you get the deep Tuna Milling it will have a slightly softer feel to it. I've also rolled GS and SS Byron's side to side, and (don't shoot me) the GS felt better. Again, there are other variables that could have been in play.. but the GS still felt better.

[yoshiod9]

As Pure said, the thickness of the face and the milling on the face will make the putter feel different. For me, the GS and SS feel too similar to tell the difference. That's probably why I use a copper DH89 Mini rather than my DH89 Mini Mystic (Stainless)... I can feel a difference between SS, Carbon and TCB but not much else.

Tai is also a better golfer-- I'd imagine his sense of feel is much better than mine!

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Tai that one has already been ordered and deposit made, I actually prefer carbon which is how I ordered it. The gss was something I started looking into closer when I was getting my order started up and lead to this post. In my research I just couldn't find a way to justify the cost so I am looking for aditional insight.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='choeppner' timestamp='1311473419' post='3417867']
Here's a thread from this forum that is about 4 years old. It's got some good insight in it.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/108796-german-stainless-steel-vs-double-aged-stainless-steel/

-Chris
[/quote]

Thanks some good info in there

[GoTime]

They are exactly the same. Difference in feel is head and shaft construction, not material.

[jick]

For GSS and SSS, this is lifted directly word-for-word from the Scotty Cameron Japan Museum website back in 2008, but for some reason this entry was taken down already:

"GSS and SSS are abbreviations to express the material of putters and both are types of stainless steel. Both are made from type 303 the softest stainless steel. The GSS is pure abstracted 303 stainless ingot made in Germany. The putter heads are curved from those ingots. On the other hand the SSS is made in United States and recycled from knives and forks, therefore there is a huge difference in the material price. Also GSS is rare, Scotty only get a small quantity of GSS ingot for his Studio 2 years ago."

So there you have it. The difference of both steels in Scotty's own words.

[putter_ho89]

[quote name='Pure745' timestamp='1311474060' post='3417903']
Since "feel" is subjective... I doubt you will ever find "proof" that GSS>SSS. One of the nicest feeling putters I've rolled was a GSS Cam & Co. with deep milling. The deep milling and face thickness probably had more to do with the feel than the actual GSS.

I think I know why you're asking this.. and I'd say you're safe going the SSS route, and if you get the deep Tuna Milling it will have a slightly softer feel to it. I've also rolled GS and SS Byron's side to side, and (don't shoot me) the GS felt better. Again, there are other variables that could have been in play.. but the GS still felt better.
[/quote]

I could not have said it better Tai. Feel is subjective. I can't say that one is better, but there is a difference. The audible sound off of the GS putters that I've rolled is a little softer.

As for cost differential, it is not all marketing. The cost of GS billets are significantly more than American SS billets. In part that cost difference is a function of shipping, import tariffs, and exchange rates.

[Manystyles]

Based on my limited knowledge of metallurgy, steel (and I would guess all metals) are graded on a scale that represents their composition and physical properties. Different grades may therefore have different feel based on the properties. I know that stainless steel is carbon steel with a minimum amount of chromium present to prevent corrosion, the key here being minimum amount. You can have more than the minimum. I think its 11 or 12% minimum chromium.

My understanding is the "german stainless steel" used is actually a type of 303 stainless steel, just made in Germany and I believe Titliest holds a trademark on "GSS". So, yes, I am inclined to believe that it is a marketing idea. I would be surprised if the properties were any different than the block of 303 stainless the heads are milled from.

I would assume the argument is that "the GSS is more consistent in its makeup and quality control is better" which provides for a more uniform feel. An analogy might be Mizuno's "grain flow forged" process which they claim produces a better feel due to the process used to make the club head, so the Mizuno iron head would have the same metallurgical properties as another iron made from the same metal, but the forging process is what makes the feel "better". This may be the case with the 303 GSS insert. Perhaps the process of manufacture produces a better feeling piece of steel when used in a putter.

Again, I'm inclined to believe it's marketing as I've not noticed much of a difference between the GSS insert putters and the all 303 studio select line.

[JTI]

IMO, there is absolutely no difference. I have seen the metal certificates (gives the various material percentages of the metal) that came with a batch of german stainless steel from Thyssen Krupps and another European mill (think is was A Spanish mill but cannot remember which one off the top of my head) and there was no difference in material composition.

I think the extra cost is threefold: 1. Getting the steel to America is prob expensive, exchange rate, shipping tax etc. 2. German mills appear to put the metal through more tests to ensure specific chemical composition, which add to the raw cost of the metal and 3. Scotty Camerons wonderful ability to create a buzz for something, whether it be GSS, deep milling, even packs of tees.

Buying Stainless Steel from Europe is a funny business, depending on the grade seems to depend where the steel comes from. Alot of stainless steel is made France/Spain/Germany even Abu Dhabi now...so ordering from a metal company they will source from the easiest place at any one time, which could be Getmany, but could equally be Spain. If you specifically say, I want steel from Germany, it is likely to cost more, if they aren't the most competitive European mill at that time.

[J13]

Have to say milling makes a difference but I've always felt GSS was softer and more responsive in my hands. Not to say it makes more putts but it's certainly feels better to me.

[NWnewguy]

The marketing sure works. Could be how it's made, and not just what's in it as well.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Thanks for the replies and insight. I can finds tons of info regarding the different types of Carbon, but when you search for german stainless it really does not come up with anything of value


I made a couple calls today to a few guys that have experience with this sort of thing

1st up was my pops who started his career with a large defense contractor as a machinist his response was laughter and as 502 put it 303 is 303 no matter where it comes from.
2nd I called a friend of mine that works in a metal fab yard and he essentiall responded the same as my dad did.


I understand the reasons why GSS would cost more from a material standpoint shipping tax etc. I guess the next logical/rehtorical question would be why spend the extra money to get a GSS putter made?

[Manystyles]

There is a website whose name escapes me now that gives you the complete info on the composition, rating/grade of all metals. Google it. As many have said 303 is 303.

[Manystyles]

Oh and the reason to use German 303? I'd point back to my mizuno "grain flow forged" analogy, or how many feel that Endo manufacturing is the best at forging irons. The marketing machine would say "it's all about the process" and the experience I've had says to me it's all the same

[hebron1427]

303 is 303. The content of what's in it is exactly the same. The only difference I coudl think of is tolerancing, in that there is a "minimum" amount of chromium (to resist corrosion) and a certain amount of carbon (to be called 303 instead of 304 or 17-4 or whatnot).However, there is some variability in the percentages, i.e., 303 is 17%-19% carbon and 8% or so of chromium; so maybe the 303 that comes from germany has closer to the 19% and is more consistently around 19%, or something of that nature.

However, none of this really makes as big a difference as constructiuon of the putter. A sound slot or deep milling can make a putter feel completely different. Thus, the height of the blade, how heavy it is, etc will have a much bigger effect than the carbon content of the steel. A 1018 carbon steel putter with a sound slot will "feel" harder than a 17-4 stainless putter with deep milling, even though 1018 is supposed to be way softer than 17-4.As many here have said, it's really all about marketing when it comes to that. They may be telling the truth that GSS is "harder" to get and therefore they can charge a premium, but the increase in cost is something on the order of $6/pound instead of $4/pound. (and, for those interested, typical putters these days are 350g, whereas a pound is abuot 450g). For that increase, a putter make will sell a putter for $250 more than they would have because it's "GSS." Or, for cameron/bettinardi, $2500 more. You can see why they do it.

[cardia10]

I guess if I paid 10 grand for a putter, I would believe it "feels special" too. I would have to justify that investment some way.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='cardia10' timestamp='1311553998' post='3420037']
I guess if I paid 10 grand for a putter, I would believe it "feels special" too. I would have to justify that investment some way.
[/quote]

"investment" is used loosely

[Bubb]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1311552059' post='3419939']
303 is 303. The content of what's in it is exactly the same. The only difference I coudl think of is tolerancing, in that there is a "minimum" amount of chromium (to resist corrosion) and a certain amount of carbon (to be called 303 instead of 304 or 17-4 or whatnot).However, there is some variability in the percentages, i.e., 303 is 17%-19% carbon and 8% or so of chromium; so maybe the 303 that comes from germany has closer to the 19% and is more consistently around 19%, or something of that nature.

However, none of this really makes as big a difference as constructiuon of the putter. A sound slot or deep milling can make a putter feel completely different. Thus, the height of the blade, how heavy it is, etc will have a much bigger effect than the carbon content of the steel. A 1018 carbon steel putter with a sound slot will "feel" harder than a 17-4 stainless putter with deep milling, even though 1018 is supposed to be way softer than 17-4.As many here have said, it's really all about marketing when it comes to that. They may be telling the truth that GSS is "harder" to get and therefore they can charge a premium, but the increase in cost is something on the order of $6/pound instead of $4/pound. (and, for those interested, typical putters these days are 350g, whereas a pound is abuot 450g). For that increase, a putter make will sell a putter for $250 more than they would have because it's "GSS." Or, for cameron/bettinardi, $2500 more. You can see why they do it.
[/quote]

Not to nitpick, but when talking about carbon-content in this instance, it's 0.17% and 0.19%, not 17% and 19%. At 17% carbon, the steel would be ultra-brittle. A U.S. mill can produce any chemical recipe that a German mill can.

[J13]

Next thing I know you guys are going to tell me the sham wow isn't superior because it's made in germany.
[attachment=827519:2527099632_bfa97fe0e3_m.jpg]

[hebron1427]

[quote name='Bubb' timestamp='1311555132' post='3420095']
[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1311552059' post='3419939']
303 is 303. The content of what's in it is exactly the same. The only difference I coudl think of is tolerancing, in that there is a "minimum" amount of chromium (to resist corrosion) and a certain amount of carbon (to be called 303 instead of 304 or 17-4 or whatnot).However, there is some variability in the percentages, i.e., 303 is 17%-19% carbon and 8% or so of chromium; so maybe the 303 that comes from germany has closer to the 19% and is more consistently around 19%, or something of that nature.

However, none of this really makes as big a difference as constructiuon of the putter. A sound slot or deep milling can make a putter feel completely different. Thus, the height of the blade, how heavy it is, etc will have a much bigger effect than the carbon content of the steel. A 1018 carbon steel putter with a sound slot will "feel" harder than a 17-4 stainless putter with deep milling, even though 1018 is supposed to be way softer than 17-4.As many here have said, it's really all about marketing when it comes to that. They may be telling the truth that GSS is "harder" to get and therefore they can charge a premium, but the increase in cost is something on the order of $6/pound instead of $4/pound. (and, for those interested, typical putters these days are 350g, whereas a pound is abuot 450g). For that increase, a putter make will sell a putter for $250 more than they would have because it's "GSS." Or, for cameron/bettinardi, $2500 more. You can see why they do it.
[/quote]

Not to nitpick, but when talking about carbon-content in this instance, it's 0.17% and 0.19%, not 17% and 19%. At 17% carbon, the steel would be ultra-brittle. A U.S. mill can produce any chemical recipe that a German mill can.
[/quote]

pardon...my error.

[J13]

A gentleman on another board said this
"I worked 25 years in defense, part of that developing armor and we had a German genius developing some armor technology for us. In the application the steel was deformed at very high rates by explosives and high speed impacts. I tested all kinds of similarly spec’d American steels to try to manufacture the design using US suppliers, but never found one that even came close to the performance of the German steel. Night and day difference.

I’m a degreed Metallurgist/Welding Engineer, and I understand metals. Our entire staff of engineers and metallurgical lab people all scratched our heads but could not ascertain why German steel was consistently better. The best we could determine was that the German steel industry uses more precise manufacturing techniques and tighter processes. I wouldn’t have believed the performance difference had I not physically and repeatedly witnessed it.
They make some damn good steels over there!!<BR id=yui_3_3_0_15_131155582095338>Is it better for golf? I’m skeptical about that but know that sometimes better performance can’t be easily explained"

[hebron1427]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1311557848' post='3420239']
A gentleman on another board said this
"I worked 25 years in defense, part of that developing armor and we had a German genius developing some armor technology for us. In the application the steel was deformed at very high rates by explosives and high speed impacts. I tested all kinds of similarly spec'd American steels to try to manufacture the design using US suppliers, but never found one that even came close to the performance of the German steel. Night and day difference.

I'm a degreed Metallurgist/Welding Engineer, and I understand metals. Our entire staff of engineers and metallurgical lab people all scratched our heads but could not ascertain why German steel was consistently better. The best we could determine was that the German steel industry uses more precise manufacturing techniques and tighter processes. I wouldn't have believed the performance difference had I not physically and repeatedly witnessed it.
They make some damn good steels over there!!<BR id=yui_3_3_0_15_131155582095338>Is it better for golf? I'm skeptical about that but know that sometimes better performance can't be easily explained"
[/quote]

That may be true--but, as I posted earlier, I really don't think the quality of the steel in testing has as much to do with the "feel" of a putter as do other factors. It has way more to do with the resonance frequencies that the person hears and feels in the shaft, which will be determined far more by head geometry and features of the impact than by the material used. Yes, the material matters in that the density will determine the resonance, but the density of 303 is the density of 303. A person hitting a golf ball with a 10 mph swing isn't going to know the difference of steels used in welding and metallurgy. yah, the tolerances may be way better for that purpose, but it's like asking what type of metal is in your hammer--if it hits the nail in the hole, what do you care what the ultimate tensile strength is?

[Thaddy]

After owning and using putters made out of 303 GSS and 303 a**, I've come to the conclusion that head shape, face thickness, and face milling plays a MUCH larger role in feel.