GSS vs SS why the hype

[stage1350]

How the billet was cast, forged, or formed as well as annealing is going to have a much bigger difference than country of origin.

Feel is subjective, but face thickness plays a huge part.

[whatshannenin]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1311591981' post='3420988']
How the billet was cast, forged, or formed as well as annealing is going to have a much bigger difference than country of origin.

Feel is subjective, but face thickness plays a huge part.
[/quote]


I had a couple GSS C and Co's that belonged to a friend. The face was super thin almost the size of the site dot on these particular putters, which in turn changed the feel. I would agree that milling and face thickness change feel probably more than a "GSS" vs "normal SS".

[KDMullins]

[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1311604765' post='3421472']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1311591981' post='3420988']
How the billet was cast, forged, or formed as well as annealing is going to have a much bigger difference than country of origin.

Feel is subjective, but face thickness plays a huge part.
[/quote]


I had a couple GSS C and Co's that belonged to a friend. The face was super thin almost the size of the site dot on these particular putters, which in turn changed the feel. I would agree that milling and face thickness change feel probably more than a "GSS" vs "normal SS".
[/quote]

No question that face thickness and milling play a huge part in feel of a putter (certainly the most significant variables), but I think it's kind of silly to dismiss the quality of German steel and it's potential impact on feel. The fact that it's used in surgical instruments and high end cutlery is a testament to the fact that it's generally perceived as "better" for use in these precision instruments. Otherwise, why would anybody go to the trouble, and why would consumers continue to purchase more expensive items with no tangible benefit. IMO, they wouldn't. People are willing to pay more because they're better.

Does that translate into "better" feel in a putter? Who knows. Feel is subjective. I would bet, however, that if you give a good golfer a putter in regular stainless and one in German stainless that were otherwise identical, he could tell the difference. Again, not to say one's "better" than the other, but they're different, and dismissing German steel by saying they're the same doesn't make any sense to me.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1311607113' post='3421571']
[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1311604765' post='3421472']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1311591981' post='3420988']
How the billet was cast, forged, or formed as well as annealing is going to have a much bigger difference than country of origin.

Feel is subjective, but face thickness plays a huge part.
[/quote]


I had a couple GSS C and Co's that belonged to a friend. The face was super thin almost the size of the site dot on these particular putters, which in turn changed the feel. I would agree that milling and face thickness change feel probably more than a "GSS" vs "normal SS".
[/quote]

No question that face thickness and milling play a huge part in feel of a putter (certainly the most significant variables), but I think it's kind of silly to dismiss the quality of German steel and it's potential impact on feel. The fact that it's used in surgical instruments and high end cutlery is a testament to the fact that it's generally perceived as "better" for use in these precision instruments. Otherwise, why would anybody go to the trouble, and why would consumers continue to purchase more expensive items with no tangible benefit. IMO, they wouldn't. People are willing to pay more because they're better.

Does that translate into "better" feel in a putter? Who knows. Feel is subjective. I would bet, however, that if you give a good golfer a putter in regular stainless and one in German stainless that were otherwise identical, he could tell the difference. Again, not to say one's "better" than the other, but they're different, and dismissing German steel by saying they're the same doesn't make any sense to me.
[/quote]

other posts in the thread have already addressed all of this. everyone here has said they cannot tell a difference. additionally, "better" may be a difference of $2 per pound, wherein the markup is in th order of $250 for some putter makers (or $2500 if your name is cameron or bettinardi) for a putter head that weighs less than a pound.

to answer your question "why would they use it," see above--that's a lot of margin. to answer your question "why would people keep buying it," marketing. pure and simple. You believe it's "better," so it is...to you...but it's really not

[racerken]

if its called german ss does not mean anything about wher its made, after all if you go to the store and buy german potato salad does that mean it was made in germany? just because a marketing person choose to use that phrase doesnt mean that is really where its from.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1311610718' post='3421728']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1311607113' post='3421571']

No question that face thickness and milling play a huge part in feel of a putter (certainly the most significant variables), but I think it's kind of silly to dismiss the quality of German steel and it's potential impact on feel. The fact that it's used in surgical instruments and high end cutlery is a testament to the fact that it's generally perceived as "better" for use in these precision instruments. Otherwise, why would anybody go to the trouble, and why would consumers continue to purchase more expensive items with no tangible benefit. IMO, they wouldn't. People are willing to pay more because they're better.

Does that translate into "better" feel in a putter? Who knows. Feel is subjective. I would bet, however, that if you give a good golfer a putter in regular stainless and one in German stainless that were otherwise identical, he could tell the difference. Again, not to say one's "better" than the other, but they're different, and dismissing German steel by saying they're the same doesn't make any sense to me.
[/quote]

other posts in the thread have already addressed all of this. everyone here has said they cannot tell a difference. additionally, "better" may be a difference of $2 per pound, wherein the markup is in th order of $250 for some putter makers (or $2500 if your name is cameron or bettinardi) for a putter head that weighs less than a pound.

to answer your question "why would they use it," see above--that's a lot of margin. to answer your question "why would people keep buying it," marketing. pure and simple. You believe it's "better," so it is...to you...but it's really not
[/quote]

Well, there's "lots of margin" in any retail product, and I disagree with your assertion that the primary reason people buy things like GSS items (or any luxury item for that matter) is due to marketing. Surely you don't believe that all these consumers spending their hard earned money are just so stupid they can't see through the marketing smoke screen.

That may sound kind of flippant, but I truly don't intend it to be...I believe the market takes care of things like this. People might buy premium goods based on the hype once, but if there's no perceived value-added benefit, they're not going to keep going back to the well.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1311621454' post='3422337']
[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1311610718' post='3421728']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1311607113' post='3421571']
No question that face thickness and milling play a huge part in feel of a putter (certainly the most significant variables), but I think it's kind of silly to dismiss the quality of German steel and it's potential impact on feel. The fact that it's used in surgical instruments and high end cutlery is a testament to the fact that it's generally perceived as "better" for use in these precision instruments. Otherwise, why would anybody go to the trouble, and why would consumers continue to purchase more expensive items with no tangible benefit. IMO, they wouldn't. People are willing to pay more because they're better.

Does that translate into "better" feel in a putter? Who knows. Feel is subjective. I would bet, however, that if you give a good golfer a putter in regular stainless and one in German stainless that were otherwise identical, he could tell the difference. Again, not to say one's "better" than the other, but they're different, and dismissing German steel by saying they're the same doesn't make any sense to me.
[/quote]

other posts in the thread have already addressed all of this. everyone here has said they cannot tell a difference. additionally, "better" may be a difference of $2 per pound, wherein the markup is in th order of $250 for some putter makers (or $2500 if your name is cameron or bettinardi) for a putter head that weighs less than a pound.

to answer your question "why would they use it," see above--that's a lot of margin. to answer your question "why would people keep buying it," marketing. pure and simple. You believe it's "better," so it is...to you...but it's really not
[/quote]

Well, there's "lots of margin" in any retail product, and I disagree with your assertion that the primary reason people buy things like GSS items (or any luxury item for that matter) is due to marketing. Surely you don't believe that all these consumers spending their hard earned money are just so stupid they can't see through the marketing smoke screen.

That may sound kind of flippant, but I truly don't intend it to be...I believe the market takes care of things like this. People might buy premium goods based on the hype once, but if there's no perceived value-added benefit, they're not going to keep going back to the well.
[/quote]

The value-add can be something completely intangible--such as social states. If your logic were correct, there would be no such thing as Veblen goods--yet they exist.
([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Veblen_good[/url])

And as far as "lots of margin," yea, there is. But you can't tell me that a $2 increase in cost always equates to a $250 increase in quality. Heck, a $2 increase in cost doesn't equate to a $25 increase in quality in most cases.

[cardia10]

If German engineering is so amazing, then why do I see 100's of older model VW's broken down or laying a smoke screen on the interstate? Now beer they can engineer, but I have yet to see much proof of anything else.

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='cardia10' timestamp='1311879033' post='3431922']
If German engineering is so amazing, then why do I see 100's of older model VW's broken down or laying a smoke screen on the interstate? Now beer they can engineer, but I have yet to see much proof of anything else.
[/quote]

I'd take a Budweiser over any German beer, any day....but then again, they are owned by the Belgians now, sigh.

No idea if GSS is any different from SS (probably not), but I like whatever Bettinardi is putting in his (guessing American here), and i have been willing to pay for it. No fault to him or Cameron or anyone else for charging what the market will bear...

[presario]

Question. If GSS camerons are only available on tour and not to the public, can you really say it's marketing? They are trying to squeeze every bit of performance at the tour level so I'm not sure I'd say it's marketing. For the non tour player, marginal utility of GSS over SSS is not worth the huge price difference.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='presario' timestamp='1315766546' post='3557081']
Question. If GSS camerons are only available on tour and not to the public, can you really say it's marketing? They are trying to squeeze every bit of performance at the tour level so I'm not sure I'd say it's marketing. For the non tour player, marginal utility of GSS over SSS is not worth the huge price difference.
[/quote]
But the big factor there is they are available to the collectors market for a premium. Gss is available via other putter makers at an additional cost. I think the answer to who set the market for gss is obvious, but I have not found one bit of evidence other than opinion that there is a significant difference between the 2 other than the placebo effect.

[mayes]

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1311899896' post='3432802']
[quote name='cardia10' timestamp='1311879033' post='3431922']
If German engineering is so amazing, then why do I see 100's of older model VW's broken down or laying a smoke screen on the interstate? Now beer they can engineer, but I have yet to see much proof of anything else.
[/quote]

I'd take a Budweiser over any German beer, any day....but then again, they are owned by the Belgians now, sigh.

No idea if GSS is any different from SS (probably not), but I like whatever Bettinardi is putting in his (guessing American here), and i have been willing to pay for it. No fault to him or Cameron or anyone else for charging what the market will bear...
[/quote]

Sorry to get off topic but:

Budweiser is German beer. Anhauser Busch not only stole the recipe for Budweiser, but the name Budweiser as well. In some European countries you have to specify which Budweiser you want since the original company still exists and uses the same name.

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='mayes' timestamp='1356512224' post='6117585']
[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1311899896' post='3432802']
[quote name='cardia10' timestamp='1311879033' post='3431922']
If German engineering is so amazing, then why do I see 100's of older model VW's broken down or laying a smoke screen on the interstate? Now beer they can engineer, but I have yet to see much proof of anything else.
[/quote]

I'd take a Budweiser over any German beer, any day....but then again, they are owned by the Belgians now, sigh.

No idea if GSS is any different from SS (probably not), but I like whatever Bettinardi is putting in his (guessing American here), and i have been willing to pay for it. No fault to him or Cameron or anyone else for charging what the market will bear...
[/quote]

Sorry to get off topic but:

Budweiser is German beer. Anhauser Busch not only stole the recipe for Budweiser, but the name Budweiser as well. In some European countries you have to specify which Budweiser you want since the original company still exists and uses the same name.
[/quote]

Yep, I'm aware the Germans invented it, and the resultant flap caused by AB's sponsorship of the World Cup. I don't think they are the same though, having had both.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Because for years now "stainless steel" has been touted as less desirable and "carbon steel" is preferred. So when someone requires stainless due to its obvious advantages they need a name that sounds better. Hence "German Stainless Steel" which has the added advantage of converting to a three-letter acronym so the Cool Kids can have a bit of new jargon to toss around.

GSS GSS GSS GSS

[hebron1427]

tell us how you REALLY feel FOC

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1356570759' post='6120419']
tell us how you REALLY feel FOC
[/quote]

Well really, truly...I felt like repeating "GSS" three more times but I was afraid it might seem over the top.

Thanks, it feels good to get that off my chest. Now I'm off to find a thread about playing "GSS Forged Blades".

[jmac13]

I read a funny story about the old John Byron Mid Brooms from back in the late 90's. They were said to be made from German Stainless Steel, not because of the quality necessarily, but because it was cheaper to buy than A SS at the time.

[corky]

all depends on the ball..... :-)

[yoshiod9]

[quote name='jmac13' timestamp='1356582769' post='6121955']
I read a funny story about the old John Byron Mid Brooms from back in the late 90's. They were said to be made from German Stainless Steel, not because of the quality necessarily, but because it was cheaper to buy than A SS at the time.
[/quote]

Link to that story?

[lightningbolt444]

I really dislike what manufactures do with gss. I understand we pay it but to charge a huge amount more for it I think is silly. We as the consumer enable it but the manufactures are at just as much fault. It does not bother me if there is a choice of AS vs GS as then it is truly your choice. However when a manufacture only offers GS and at a high price in models I feel it is taking advantage of the consumer. I feel this way because in my mind the markup is higher on a GS putter than on an AS putter. It is possible that it is not. I am sure GS is more expensive but I also think the % markup is much much more. I have been turned off by a few putter makers that do this. It is not the cost as I have/had many high dollar putters but rather the approach that GS is the only thing available.

[indyvai]

I'm pretty sure they're identical by grade even though it might cost more to obtain. I'd bet the farm that nobody can tell the difference.

[jmac13]

[quote name='yoshiod9' timestamp='1356910006' post='6140607']
[quote name='jmac13' timestamp='1356582769' post='6121955']
I read a funny story about the old John Byron Mid Brooms from back in the late 90's. They were said to be made from German Stainless Steel, not because of the quality necessarily, but because it was cheaper to buy than A SS at the time.
[/quote]

Link to that story?
[/quote]

http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php/topic,8100.msg100362.html#msg100362

[finalist]

[quote name='yoshiod9' timestamp='1356910006' post='6140607']
[quote name='jmac13' timestamp='1356582769' post='6121955']
I read a funny story about the old John Byron Mid Brooms from back in the late 90's. They were said to be made from German Stainless Steel, not because of the quality necessarily, but because it was cheaper to buy than A SS at the time.
[/quote]

Link to that story?
[/quote]

http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php/topic,8100.msg100362.html#msg100362

I have several models of the same shape in different metals and I can't tell the difference if the head design, shaft and grip are identical.
The majority of Byron German putters go to Japan because they absolutely demand it. Japan is in love with all things German since circa 1942.
Also, don't forget the cost pf shipping multiple HUGE beams of German steel to the US for milling. I'd hate to see that Fedex bill.

[stage1350]

[quote name='lightningbolt444' timestamp='1356910910' post='6140681']
I really dislike what manufactures do with gss. I understand we pay it but to charge a huge amount more for it I think is silly. We as the consumer enable it but the manufactures are at just as much fault. It does not bother me if there is a choice of AS vs GS as then it is truly your choice. However when a manufacture only offers GS and at a high price in models I feel it is taking advantage of the consumer. I feel this way because in my mind the markup is higher on a GS putter than on an AS putter. It is possible that it is not. I am sure GS is more expensive but I also think the % markup is much much more. I have been turned off by a few putter makers that do this. It is not the cost as I have/had many high dollar putters but rather the approach that GS is the only thing available.
[/quote]

This will usually be defended by someone that wants to wrap themselves in the cloak of capitalism and say if someone is willing to pay for it, go for it.

There is, however, an old saying: You can shear a sheep many times. But you can skin him only once.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/767395-how-was-golfwrx-created-answer-on-bottom-of-pg-1/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/767395-how-was-golfwrx-created-answer-on-bottom-of-pg-1/[/url]
Those that haven't looked at this thread should look at the "other site" as an example of someone that went in for the kill instead of creating a long-term customer base. By gouging and providing poor service, this guy killed the golden goose.

There are a lot of parallels to that thread in the putter industry.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='lightningbolt444' timestamp='1356910910' post='6140681']
I really dislike what manufactures do with gss. I understand we pay it but to charge a huge amount more for it I think is silly. We as the consumer enable it but the manufactures are at just as much fault. It does not bother me if there is a choice of AS vs GS as then it is truly your choice. However when a manufacture only offers GS and at a high price in models I feel it is taking advantage of the consumer. I feel this way because in my mind the markup is higher on a GS putter than on an AS putter. It is possible that it is not. I am sure GS is more expensive but I also think the % markup is much much more. I have been turned off by a few putter makers that do this. It is not the cost as I have/had many high dollar putters but rather the approach that GS is the only thing available.
[/quote]wh

why are you sure german stainless costs more than american stainless?

[Big Ben]

Supply and demand dictates this one, good old fashion business smarts...BB

[lightningbolt444]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1356927552' post='6141959']
[quote name='lightningbolt444' timestamp='1356910910' post='6140681']
I really dislike what manufactures do with gss. I understand we pay it but to charge a huge amount more for it I think is silly. We as the consumer enable it but the manufactures are at just as much fault. It does not bother me if there is a choice of AS vs GS as then it is truly your choice. However when a manufacture only offers GS and at a high price in models I feel it is taking advantage of the consumer. I feel this way because in my mind the markup is higher on a GS putter than on an AS putter. It is possible that it is not. I am sure GS is more expensive but I also think the % markup is much much more. I have been turned off by a few putter makers that do this. It is not the cost as I have/had many high dollar putters but rather the approach that GS is the only thing available.
[/quote]wh

why are you sure german stainless costs more than american stainless?
[/quote]

Nothing honestly I was just hoping if it is actually cheaper and I found that out without a shadow of the doubt I would never even look at certain makers putters again

[lightningbolt444]

[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1356927764' post='6141979']
Supply and demand dictates this one, good old fashion business smarts...BB
[/quote]

See I beg to differ that it is smart. Sure some will pay the premium but then you also have the other side of the coin. A person like me who will not look at them at all. I am sure many other people are the same. I probably buy about 25-30 putters a year ranging in price from $50 up to $1500 however if I feel the maker or oem is charging for gs without having a alternative in american stainless just to make an extra buck (limited models are different) then I wont look their way when I am buying my 25-30 putters for the year.

I think over time the fad will wear off and people will realize you cant tell the difference when that time comes some makers may be in for a shock. Something many companies fail at is they try to make a quick buck over time the consumer catches on and if the company fails to adjust they will be in serious trouble. If makers offered a solid product at a solid price and it could even be $2000 +if it is something truly special I think they build a customer base that is devoted and will stick with you. In the end you profit more.

[finalist]

My favorite fact about my own German putters is that Byron gets the steel from a 400 year old German steel mill. Obviously the mill plant has modernized, but I've seen old sketches of what the mill looked like 400 years ago and you would think Smurfs built it out of ancient trees and mushrooms.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='lightningbolt444' timestamp='1356929905' post='6142129']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1356927764' post='6141979']
Supply and demand dictates this one, good old fashion business smarts...BB
[/quote]

See I beg to differ that it is smart. Sure some will pay the premium but then you also have the other side of the coin. A person like me who will not look at them at all. I am sure many other people are the same. I probably buy about 25-30 putters a year ranging in price from $50 up to $1500 however if I feel the maker or oem is charging for gs without having a alternative in american stainless just to make an extra buck (limited models are different) then I wont look their way when I am buying my 25-30 putters for the year.

I think over time the fad will wear off and people will realize you cant tell the difference when that time comes some makers may be in for a shock. Something many companies fail at is they try to make a quick buck over time the consumer catches on and if the company fails to adjust they will be in serious trouble. If makers offered a solid product at a solid price and it could even be $2000 +if it is something truly special I think they build a customer base that is devoted and will stick with you. In the end you profit more.
[/quote]

you're making a false assumption that anything about this has to do with improved quality of a more expensive putter, or even the perception of that. the only thing an expensive putter buys you is exclusivity. that's it. it doesn't buy you materials you coudln't get elsewhere, it doesn't but you machining processes you couldn't get elsewhere, it doesn't even buy you designs you couldn't get elsewhere. if i'm a putter maker, i'm not looking at a premium flatstick and saying "let me make this out of GSS and see what i have to sell it for in order for the margins to work out." that's how most businesses work, but not veblen goods. if i'm making this type of good, i say "what do i want to sell this for, and what do i have to do to create a perceived market where someone purchasing finds the value out of it that i'm looking for." the point isn't to sell putters; the point is to make $2,000 at point of sale. if my name is don cameron, why would i waste my time catering to someone who's not going ot pay the price i want to get for this product? it doesn't matter whether there actually is any intrinsic value to what's being sold at a premium. the idea that you have what no one or few others can get is what you're paying for. hell, it could be made out of good old grey cast iron and people would pay it if the perceived value were that it was exclusive.