Dynamic Gold Tour issue vs Dynamic Gold

[Thrillhouse]

Since the other thread on this issue took a bit of a turn I thought it might be a good idea to start another one to see what everybody thinks. So, we have established that the only difference (other than the cool decals) between the TI's and the standard Dynamic Gold is that the TI's are weight sorted, that being said what does everyone think?

 

I really like them, I found them to be a significantly better feeling shaft than the standard dynamic gold. I have been a loyal x100 user for years, and like the feel of the standard Dynamic Gold but I feel that the TI's are a step above, I find them to not only feel better but also seem to perform more consistently. What say you?

[kg92lefty]

they are more consistent (weighting) meaning they will 'feel better'. and more consistent weighting will be better performing but I doubt any non pro could tell that slight difference. If you think they are better for your game then play them, golf is a mental game and you need to use whatever will help you. I have some custom vokeys with ti s400 and regular vokeys for practice with non ti s400 and I cant tell the difference between them (although it is only from shots within 120 and never a full swing).

[Redhill]

Seems to me that the butt end feel smaller.

[jaskanski]

How does more consistent weighting equate to better feel? In other threads, it has been said in no uncertain terms that nobody can detect a 1 sw point difference in clubs, which does beg the question why bother with that level of weight sorting? The same would apply the subtle differences of cpm from shaft to shaft - is 0.5g really go to make a difference to the over anal golfer?
It's no surprise that DG shafts come into such folklore with the rather obvious weld seam that can upset the frequency slope of assembled sets, leading to differences of opinion on how they feel. Even an un-sorted set can be tuned to give a better response to frequency analysis though.
The bottom line is that they (TI shafts) are for precision built sets that can take advantage of the weight tolerance. If you're not surgically precise with grip weight, trimmed length, head weight, even ferrule and epoxy weight, then any advantage of weight sorting is lost and they become a waste of money.
As our friend Howard Jones quite correctly said, a TI set is a lot cheaper than paying someone to weight sort a regular set for you - most people don't have access to enough shafts to adequately find a matched set anyway. But to say that TI shafts are uniquely better in quality and performance that a regular DG is just plain wrong. Especially when you consider that most sets aren't assembled to the same level of precision offered by Joe Kwok or Howard Jones.
A TI shaft is a DG shaft and vice versa. The biggest losers are those that pay for a single or maybe 3 shafts for wedges - what's the point in that I have no idea.
For some however, the label is justification enough for their use and only adds to their air of mystique and esteemed regard. Personally I don't the great attraction because essentially, specifically and metalurgically speaking, they are DG shafts. And don't get me started on the "well it's not exactly what they get on tour, I've seen tour issued S300 parallels" etc. It's enough to make you want to switch to PX.

[coops]

Name Inflation.

I'm so old, I remember when you could get non-DG from True Temper in many off the rack iron sets - it was just the 'boggo' standard TT steel shaft, same design and all as per the Dynamic 'Gold' just way worse quality control i.e. looser specs.
You could get a friendly club builder to make you a set with the tighter DG specs if he had enough stock to rummage thru of the standard stuff...

[Nessism]

I remember when the Dynamic shafts were less than $5 each. Weigh out your set and match the heavy ones with the light heads. Now a days people talk about switching from S300 to S400 as a meaningful change, which I don't understand. Guess I'm saying I'm in the camp that think the Tour Issue's are just more exactingly sorted, and needlessly so at that.

[tembolo1284]

I thought there was no diff except for having a tighter tolerance in weight. If you have a good clubbuilder he can weigh em out and get just as good a set together as if they were tour issue.

[oneaugusta]

It's what I thought they were all along (weight sorted and frequency matched) but they figured they could call it something else and people would pay more money if you call it tour issue. All hype in my opinion, but if you think they feel better and it gives you confidence have at it.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1321436427' post='3806661']
How does more consistent weighting equate to better feel? In other threads, it has been said in no uncertain terms that nobody can detect a 1 sw point difference in clubs, which does beg the question why bother with that level of weight sorting? The same would apply the subtle differences of cpm from shaft to shaft - is 0.5g really go to make a difference to the over anal golfer?
It's no surprise that DG shafts come into such folklore with the rather obvious weld seam that can upset the frequency slope of assembled sets, leading to differences of opinion on how they feel. Even an un-sorted set can be tuned to give a better response to frequency analysis though.
The bottom line is that they (TI shafts) are for precision built sets that can take advantage of the weight tolerance. If you're not surgically precise with grip weight, trimmed length, head weight, even ferrule and epoxy weight, then any advantage of weight sorting is lost and they become a waste of money.
As our friend Howard Jones quite correctly said, a TI set is a lot cheaper than paying someone to weight sort a regular set for you - most people don't have access to enough shafts to adequately find a matched set anyway. But to say that TI shafts are uniquely better in quality and performance that a regular DG is just plain wrong. Especially when you consider that most sets aren't assembled to the same level of precision offered by Joe Kwok or Howard Jones.
A TI shaft is a DG shaft and vice versa. The biggest losers are those that pay for a single or maybe 3 shafts for wedges - what's the point in that I have no idea.
For some however, the label is justification enough for their use and only adds to their air of mystique and esteemed regard. Personally I don't the great attraction because essentially, specifically and metalurgically speaking, they are DG shafts. And don't get me started on the "well it's not exactly what they get on tour, I've seen tour issued S300 parallels" etc. It's enough to make you want to switch to PX.
[/quote]

You must be kidding my friend (LOL), is there really players out there who got Ti shafts in their wedges ONLY ?

If thats the case, they got to much money, and lack of knowledge, because there is NO reason what so ever for a choice like that, unless its "showing off".
DGTi's in wedges is only a "visual" issue (same labels on irons and wedges), so using DGTi's in wedges only is far out, but i guess thats whats make this worlds turn around

[jaskanski]

Why doesn't anybody question the weight sorting of other shafts in TT's range, or any other brand such as PX, KBS, Nippon for that matter? Possibly because of the magic words "tour issued"? And when was the last time anybody weighed a graphite driver shaft to check it was within 0.5g of the rated spec - where arguably the longer length could show up anomalies much easier?
Just a thought.

[Dizz]

What about guys like me that put an order in and it shows up that way at no charge? Are we losers too? I agree with most of what you guys are saying and I couldn't feel a difference myself but calling someone else a loser because of their golf equipment makes you the loser. Some people like having nice things, whether they work or not. That would be like me buying a super expensive fishing pole, I really enjoy fishing but I'm just out there for the hell of it. I am not out there to get better at fishing or need nice equipment. Everybody has different hobbies and like to spend money on different things.

For what its worth, I have hit Tour Issue side by side with a regular Dynamic Gold and saw no appreciable difference.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1321450998' post='3806961']
What about guys like me that put an order in and it shows up that way at no charge? Are we losers too? I agree with most of what you guys are saying and I couldn't feel a difference myself but calling someone else a loser because of their golf equipment makes you the loser. Some people like having nice things, whether they work or not. That would be like me buying a super expensive fishing pole, I really enjoy fishing but I'm just about there for the hell of it. I am not out there to get better at fishing or need nice equipment. Everybody has different hobbies and like to spend money on different things.

For what its worth, I have hit Tour Issue side by side with a regular Dynamic Gold and saw no appreciable difference.
[/quote]


yap same here. No diff.

[Llortamaisey]

Wasn't there a recent study done that showed people putted better with a certain putter when they were told it was played by a tour player?

I definitely could see how someone might think the Tour Issue DG feels better, even though there is relatively no difference compared to standard DG, especially since feel is subjective. I bet I could play better basketball if I wore Jordans that were made for Jordan.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='King Kobra' timestamp='1321459383' post='3807707']
Wasn't there a recent study done that showed people putted better with a certain putter when they were told it was played by a tour player?

I definitely could see how someone might think the Tour Issue DG feels better, even though there is relatively no difference compared to standard DG, especially since feel is subjective. I bet I could play better basketball if I wore Jordans that were made for Jordan.
[/quote]


You must be a tall fellow.

[Cwebb]

The problem with most of the comparisons that are going on, is the player doesn't know the exact raw specs of each shaft, and how each one was installed in relation to spine/FLO. You could take a "Tour Issue DG" and a standard DG that have the exact same raw specs, but if one happens to be installed in a different orientation in regards to the spine/FLO, then you end up with a different feeling/performing shaft.

[Pepperturbo]

I agree with [b]@Jaskanski[/b]. But, add, from person to person, feel / touch varies dramatically, and so does attention to detail. In other words, NOT every one is equal as much as some want to think so. A segment of people will notice weight variance, comfort level associated with one wrap vs. four, the difference between D2 - D5 or D9, etc.

Some years back when I played DG I noticed a few shafts out of the set that felt odd, not playing to expected distances. After writing it off to operator error, I set out to see if it was me or the clubs. Subsequently I went through 3 sets of shafts, only to have the problem shift from shaft to shaft. After 3 sets of shafts, and buying a new set of clubs, thinking that might help, the problem just changed. I finally contacted an out of town acquaintance that built clubs for some touring pros. He immediately pulled all the shafts and knew what the problem was. Shaft set was made up of R, S and X. He said touring pros don't have to contend with such issues, doesn't matter which shafts they choose, they are matched before they reach a touring pros hands.

[b]@Jaskanski[/b] asks a valid question, why don't people question specs when it says "tour" on them... possibly for the same reason OEM's market to club ho's... they believe [b]marketing hype.[/b] I also agree with [b]@Howard Jones[/b] when speaking about certain shafts in wedges for the wrong reasons. I had PX 6.0 shaft installed in my back up LW to see if it would make a difference in play. Turns out the stiff tip derogatorily influenced feel, but resulted in my LW flying farther. Max distance is NOT want I want in LW - feel is primary; reason my LW has the lone 36" DG S200 @D9 out of my set.

[Skaffa77]

I'm a long time Dyanmic Gold player using mainly S300's. I have a set Scratch SB-1's with DG TI (S400) and own another set of irons (Titleist 690.MB's) with the standard Dynm Gold S400. I don't notice any appreciable difference outside of the shaft label.

Just my experience.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1321450998' post='3806961']
What about guys like me that put an order in and it shows up that way at no charge? Are we losers too? I agree with most of what you guys are saying and I couldn't feel a difference myself but calling someone else a loser because of their golf equipment makes you the loser. Some people like having nice things, whether they work or not. That would be like me buying a super expensive fishing pole, I really enjoy fishing but I'm just out there for the hell of it. I am not out there to get better at fishing or need nice equipment. Everybody has different hobbies and like to spend money on different things.

For what its worth, I have hit Tour Issue side by side with a regular Dynamic Gold and saw no appreciable difference.
[/quote]

Yes, it would appear that sentiment is somewhat misconstrued in the way it was initially posted, but it was not my intention to depict the derogatory term but the monetary standpoint instead. In hindsight and having re-read the post in question, it could be interpreted that way, but a certain amount has perhaps been lost in translation.
In the UK (where I live anyway) it is a commonly used term to depict a situation where someone is "worse off" or "out of pocket". For example, if player 'A' paid more for an essentially indentical product than player 'B' he could be considered to be "worse off" or has lost more money than 'B' - hence he is the biggest loser (of money).
Of course, if there really is a difference between TI and regular DG shafts, it is the price. TI's are more than twice the price.
Having said that however, if it's your money (or maybe even not) you are indeed entitled to spend the money on what you please. If you're looking to avoid spending more than you need to though, my intention was to put to bed the popular misconceptions surrounding said shafts - you get absolutely nothing extra in quality or performance, only a stricter weight tolerance.
If J.W. (er...Dizz?) feels offended enough, drop me a P.M. and I will be more than happy to edit the post accordingly. Apologies for my use of English - it is, of course, only 50% of my native tongue after all.

[drewspin]

If you need garish labels that scream "TOUR ISSUE" then go for it.

More developed sensibilities less concerned with parading about with oversized shaft labels find this type of "customer-pays-a-premium-price-for-our-advertising" scheme to be complete non-sense.

Are they even FLO'd ?

Come on True Temper. Step it up.

[dwboston]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321465012' post='3808259']
If you need garish labels that scream "TOUR ISSUE" then go for it.

More developed sensibilities less concerned with parading about with oversized shaft labels find this type of "customer-pays-a-premium-price-for-our-advertising" scheme to be complete non-sense.

Are they even FLO'd ?

Come on True Temper. Step it up.
[/quote]

Since they are generally installed label down, how is that "parading about"? And who really cares if your "more developed sensibilities" are offended?

I don't understand the vitriol that constantly pops up in these DG TI threads. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Just one more example of the negativity on these forums lately.

[drewspin]

[quote name='dwboston' timestamp='1321466717' post='3808367']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321465012' post='3808259']
If you need garish labels that scream "TOUR ISSUE" then go for it.

More developed sensibilities less concerned with parading about with oversized shaft labels find this type of "customer-pays-a-premium-price-for-our-advertising" scheme to be complete non-sense.

Are they even FLO'd ?

Come on True Temper. Step it up.
[/quote]

Since they are generally installed label down, how is that "parading about"? And who really cares if your "more developed sensibilities" are offended?

I don't understand the vitriol that constantly pops up in these DG TI threads. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Just one more example of the negativity on these forums lately.
[/quote]

So, when you FLO the shafts are they still "label down" or all over the place?

[Dizz]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1321464676' post='3808231']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1321450998' post='3806961']
What about guys like me that put an order in and it shows up that way at no charge? Are we losers too? I agree with most of what you guys are saying and I couldn't feel a difference myself but calling someone else a loser because of their golf equipment makes you the loser. Some people like having nice things, whether they work or not. That would be like me buying a super expensive fishing pole, I really enjoy fishing but I'm just out there for the hell of it. I am not out there to get better at fishing or need nice equipment. Everybody has different hobbies and like to spend money on different things.

For what its worth, I have hit Tour Issue side by side with a regular Dynamic Gold and saw no appreciable difference.
[/quote]

Yes, it would appear that sentiment is somewhat misconstrued in the way it was initially posted, but it was not my intention to depict the derogatory term but the monetary standpoint instead. In hindsight and having re-read the post in question, it could be interpreted that way, but a certain amount has perhaps been lost in translation.
In the UK (where I live anyway) it is a commonly used term to depict a situation where someone is "worse off" or "out of pocket". For example, if player 'A' paid more for an essentially indentical product than player 'B' he could be considered to be "worse off" or has lost more money than 'B' - hence he is the biggest loser (of money).
Of course, if there really is a difference between TI and regular DG shafts, it is the price. TI's are more than twice the price.
Having said that however, if it's your money (or maybe even not) you are indeed entitled to spend the money on what you please. If you're looking to avoid spending more than you need to though, my intention was to put to bed the popular misconceptions surrounding said shafts - you get absolutely nothing extra in quality or performance, only a stricter weight tolerance.
If J.W. (er...Dizz?) feels offended enough, drop me a P.M. and I will be more than happy to edit the post accordingly. Apologies for my use of English - it is, of course, only 50% of my native tongue after all.
[/quote]

LOL, I've read enough of your posts to know the content for the most part. Absolutely no offense taken. I was just saying, getting carried away trying to tell people they wasted their money, like the last thread went, is futile at best. No need for an edit from me. I like my tour issue labels and I did not pay for them.

[dwboston]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321468054' post='3808457']
[quote name='dwboston' timestamp='1321466717' post='3808367']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321465012' post='3808259']
If you need garish labels that scream "TOUR ISSUE" then go for it.

More developed sensibilities less concerned with parading about with oversized shaft labels find this type of "customer-pays-a-premium-price-for-our-advertising" scheme to be complete non-sense.

Are they even FLO'd ?

Come on True Temper. Step it up.
[/quote]

Since they are generally installed label down, how is that "parading about"? And who really cares if your "more developed sensibilities" are offended?

I don't understand the vitriol that constantly pops up in these DG TI threads. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Just one more example of the negativity on these forums lately.
[/quote]

So, when you FLO the shafts are they still "label down" or all over the place?
[/quote]

I assume they're all over the place. There was a picture in a thread here a year or so ago of a set installed in a Tour van where the logos were all over the place - not clear whether those were FLO'd or PURE'd. Though in most of the pictures I see here from the Tour or on TV, they seem to just be installed label down.

[drewspin]

DW - see that's the thing - I competely understand why the guys on Tour wear advertising on their clothes, hats, gloves and bags and gear. They either get paid to do so, or (in the case of shafts, etc.) they get the stuff free and the manufacturers hook them up when they want it.

I'm sure by now, all of the PGA tour guys have their shafts spine-alined by FLO or PURE or whatever, and get the labels put on after that so they are not distracting.

BUT there is a difference with the average joe customers who pay a premium for DG TI weight sorting (without spine alignment) and then have labels all over the place if they choose to optimize their gear.

I've spent plenty of money on premium stuff, but when I do so, I am generally looking for some performance advantage. All I was saying is that I won't pay a premium JUST to advertise for other people.

Might have said it a bit forcefully, but TRUE TEMPER is a great American company and they should be giving more value than weight sorting for the price. I love them, but come on.

[dwboston]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321470025' post='3808609']
DW - see that's the thing - I competely understand why the guys on Tour wear advertising on their clothes, hats, gloves and bags and gear. They either get paid to do so, or (in the case of shafts, etc.) they get the stuff free and the manufacturers hook them up when they want it.

I'm sure by now, all of the PGA tour guys have their shafts spine-alined by FLO or PURE or whatever, and get the labels put on after that so they are not distracting.

BUT there is a difference with the average joe customers who pay a premium for DG TI weight sorting (without spine alignment) and then have labels all over the place if they choose to optimize their gear.

I've spent plenty of money on premium stuff, but when I do so, I am generally looking for some performance advantage. All I was saying is that I won't pay a premium JUST to advertise for other people.

Might have said it a bit forcefully, but TRUE TEMPER is a great American company and they should be giving more value than weight sorting for the price. I love them, but come on.
[/quote]

There was a thread here (I'll try to find it later tonight when I have time) where a poster said he bought a set of DG TI shafts and took them to his club builder for installation. The club builder then spined them, and they all ended up in the label down position. I have a set installed label down in my 690.CBs and they feel pretty consistent to me - there's no outlier club that feels or performs differently than the rest. I'm not claiming there's any special magic other than the fact that they feel good to me. I got them in my new set of 712 CBs - the upcharge wasn't too bad ordering from DD's.

[drewspin]

[quote name='dwboston' timestamp='1321470802' post='3808683']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1321470025' post='3808609']
DW - see that's the thing - I competely understand why the guys on Tour wear advertising on their clothes, hats, gloves and bags and gear. They either get paid to do so, or (in the case of shafts, etc.) they get the stuff free and the manufacturers hook them up when they want it.

I'm sure by now, all of the PGA tour guys have their shafts spine-alined by FLO or PURE or whatever, and get the labels put on after that so they are not distracting.

BUT there is a difference with the average joe customers who pay a premium for DG TI weight sorting (without spine alignment) and then have labels all over the place if they choose to optimize their gear.

I've spent plenty of money on premium stuff, but when I do so, I am generally looking for some performance advantage. All I was saying is that I won't pay a premium JUST to advertise for other people.

Might have said it a bit forcefully, but TRUE TEMPER is a great American company and they should be giving more value than weight sorting for the price. I love them, but come on.
[/quote]

There was a thread here (I'll try to find it later tonight when I have time) where a poster said he bought a set of DG TI shafts and took them to his club builder for installation. The club builder then spined them, and they all ended up in the label down position.
[/quote]

I hope that is true and everyone's experience. If they were spined from the factory, that would be a very good thing.

I'll change my tune if the Tour Issue designation also means they are spine aligned from the factory and not just weight sorted.

And I hope that is true... but not what I have heard.

[stage1350]

They will never spine at the factory since the factory has sworn on multiple stacks of Bibles that spining doesn't make a difference.

Spine ANY set of DG shafts (TI or not) and check the frequency slope. It's very smooth. Now randomly orient the same set and you will see frequencies all over the place. Aligning the weld seam is critical on Dynamic Golds and you will have different feel from club to club if it's not performed.

I'm just happy the DG Tour X7 shafts don't come with the billboard graphics. Honestly, they look pretty brutal on a set. I'd rather have a tiny shaftband or no shaftband at all.

[drewspin]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1321473947' post='3808883']
They will never spine at the factory since the factory has sworn on multiple stacks of Bibles that spining doesn't make a difference.

Spine ANY set of DG shafts (TI or not) and check the frequency slope. It's very smooth. Now randomly orient the same set and you will see frequencies all over the place. Aligning the weld seam is critical on Dynamic Golds and you will have different feel from club to club if it's not performed.

I'm just happy the DG Tour X7 shafts don't come with the billboard graphics. Honestly, they look pretty brutal on a set. I'd rather have a tiny shaftband or no shaftband at all.
[/quote]

Well said, Brad.

[Dizz]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1321473947' post='3808883']
They will never spine at the factory since the factory has sworn on multiple stacks of Bibles that spining doesn't make a difference.

Spine ANY set of DG shafts (TI or not) and check the frequency slope. It's very smooth. Now randomly orient the same set and you will see frequencies all over the place. Aligning the weld seam is critical on Dynamic Golds and you will have different feel from club to club if it's not performed.

I'm just happy the DG Tour X7 shafts don't come with the billboard graphics. Honestly, they look pretty brutal on a set. I'd rather have a tiny shaftband or no shaftband at all.
[/quote]

I wish I knew more about club making in that regard. Aligning along the weld seam, please explain. The good thing about Tour Issue labels, while they are rather big they position them so when facing logo down they cannot be seen from address.

[drewspin]

J.W. aligning a shaft along the weld seam or dominant "spine" of the club tends to make the performance of the shafts in a set more uniform, some would say minimally so, and others would say dramatically so.

There is some debate on how to actually align the dominant spine, once found, but the general theory of the practice is that the spine is more resistant to the strain forces that want to bend the shaft in various directions durign the swing.

If you align the spines in all shafts similarly, in an orientation that will take the most shaft strain during the swing... generally toe down for irons at impact and for woods, generally with the toe down and the clubhead leading the shaft at impact for woods... you will "optimize" the performance of the set.

Problem number 1 is that you or your clubsmith have to do this before shafts are installed (or pull them out and align them) the mass market manufacturers have not figured out yet that doing this would be a selling point... problem 2 is that the shaft manufacturers don't identify spines from the factory (apparently also not seizing the marketing opportunity) and problem 3 is with billboard graphics not aligned to spines, you'll have big a** shaft labels all over the place.

All of these problems are relatively easy to overcome.

The thing is that spining shafts through flat line oscillation (FLO) is relatively easy and inexpensive to do, and it would be TRIVIAL for the manufactuers to mark their shafts along the spine if they were willing to acknowledge that it does make a difference.

There are loads of threads discussing it here and elsewhere. Some keywords: SPINE, flat line oscillation (FLO), SST PURE, S1, S2, Neutral Bend Point (NBP), Dave Tutelman has a very comprehensive section on spines on his web site.