SLICEFIXER BOOK UPDATE

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jurr80' timestamp='1411220035' post='10152433']
I get it. Some guys don't understand the concept of working hard and achieving a task without a babysitter.
Geoff shows you what you are needing to work on. He gives you countless examples. He helps you establish a feel.
He then watches you do the drill/swing idea/etc for a period of time. He then expects you to work for the next amount of time on that concept.

If a guy is in TXK for a lesson, he is there all day. Not 8-12 PM like some instructors who call that a "one day clinic".
In any one day, I will start at 8:30 with Geoff, get the "keys for the day", then get to work. He fills in the gaps and answers questions that I have during the day. We finish at 9-10 PM. At some point during the day, he films again to show me what I am getting better at. It all goes on a DVD that goes home with me. During a three day stay, I go home with tons of information.

For those that do a three day school, they go home with 6 hours of video taken during the time they were there. He records it as he talks. You get short game, mental game, full swing, drills, and your personal swing plan.

To spend 3 days with someone of Geoff's expertise...to stay at his freaking HOUSE...to get a chance to hit unlimited balls...to get his videos custom made to you....and to get to work with him from 8AM to 10PM every day of that trip (not 4 hours)...excuse me if you have to possibly wait for an hour at times to get an update on your progress.

If you are incapable of working on a swing drill for 60 minutes with focus, trying to get the right feel, then maybe you aren't serious about making real changes. You obviously have an expectation that the guy will wave his wand and grant you a golf swing.

It does NOT work that way. In any one day with Geoff, you get much more than 4 hours of his time. And checking the costs of some of the other "pros" I've seen, I wohld say that Geoff is a flat out BARGAIN.
[/quote]

Sorry but I don't call 8-12 a full day. I actually explicitly call it a half day. To separate it from the face that I also teach full day lessons from 8-5 pm. And anyone who has seen my can attest that when someone comes from 8-12 they are free to stay as long as they like and many do stay til 3-5. They can hit as many balls as they want and if I'm not currently teaching are free to ask any questions they may have. But during the time that they are paying for (only the 8-12) they have my undivided attention. The rest of the day that they are free to hit balls and play golf is done at no extra charge. The ones that pay for an entire day and are there from 8am-5pm have my undivided attention that entire time as well. It's not about needing to be baby sit. It's about believing you are paying for one thing (private instruction) and getting something else. And following up and being available after the fact is a part of doing business.

[Siteseer2]

Dan and Geoff are two of the VERY best in the game.... no sense trying to "compare"...both will give you max help...its like trying to say which ice cream is better chocolate or vanilla.....

[rteach1]

jurr80 and others,

Working on drills and achieving a task after being given swing concepts and keys is exactly what I expect to do *after* i get home from a lesson. That's called practice. *During* a lesson, I expect my instructor to watch every swing. To you, that's waving a magic wand. To me, it's called getting what I paid for.

To reiterate, if Geoff's procedures had been laid out in *advance,* then I could have made an informed decision as a consumer. These procedures were never explained to me despite numerous questions as to how my private lessons would proceed. If this methodology is fine with you and others, that's your prerogative. Enjoy. The process was never spelled out up front. I don't agree with the lesson structure, but it was the principle of not being told about the structure to which I most objected.

rteach1

[J13]

The people defending an instructor wandering off for to work with other people while his current student paid for private instruction is ludicrous. Honestly think about what it is your defending. Someone paid for 10 apples but they only get 6. Is that cool with you? No one is attacking Geoff's passion or ability but his lack of professionalism when working with a student who paid for his time is flat out wrong.

So answer the question the student who pays for 5 hours of his time should be fine with getting only 3? If you defend this then you deserve such treatment.

[chrisgilly09]

Last page of responses: hahahahahahahahahaha

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1411227913' post='10152871']
jurr80 and others,

Working on drills and achieving a task after being given swing concepts and keys is exactly what I expect to do *after* i get home from a lesson. That's called practice. *During* a lesson, I expect my instructor to watch every swing. To you, that's waving a magic wand. To me, it's called getting what I paid for.

To reiterate, if Geoff's procedures had been laid out in *advance,* then I could have made an informed decision as a consumer. These procedures were never explained to me despite numerous questions as to how my private lessons would proceed. If this methodology is fine with you and others, that's your prerogative. Enjoy. The process was never spelled out up front. I don't agree with the lesson structure, but it was the principle of not being told about the structure to which I most objected.

rteach1
[/quote]
Rteach1
We have not communicated in a little while
How are you progressing?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411225929' post='10152739']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411217503' post='10152299']
Some terrible professional jealousy on display in this thread along with a thinly veiled attempt at self promotion. The old backhanded compliment...preface with a few compliments before taking a shot. Embarassing...

Everyone, including golf instructors, has strengths and weaknesses. Geoff is a great teacher and his track record speaks for itself, but he'd be the first to admit that he's not for everyone.

Very lame that another instructor would come into this thread and take an unprovoked shot, and in my view it speaks volumes about character, or lack thereof...
[/quote]

What could I possibly be jealous of? I can assure you there is no jealousy involved, certainly not from a business standpoint as I'm as busy as I would ever want to be and turn down lessons all the time due to not being able to fit 12 hours into a 10 hour day. You can think whatever you want of my character. There was no backhanded compliment. I truly think he is a great teacher and a great guy. But that also doesn't mean that I think it's right for anyone in any business to take multiple days to get back to a current customer and completely ignore potential customers that contact you because you are busy. The response was to your "one man show" comment as if every other instructor out there except a handful aren't "one man shows". And if being a one man show means you can't keep up than maybe you should hire someone to pick up the slack
[/quote]

Have been going back and forth on whether or not to post. Better judgement says no but to heck with that. Slight disagreement with what you are saying. If that is how you choose to service your customers then great. Another business may choose to not do it. Doesn't make one right and one wrong. Makes them different. Customers can do research and find these things out and find the business they want to use. If a business loses customers because of perceived lack of service that really damages nobody but themselves. They really don't owe anything to anybody at that point. I have become harder to reach over the last year. It has to do with a couple things. I have been busier and I had a kid. With both things my time has become more valuable and I DO NOT answer or return calls or emails once I get home at night. It is a personal choice for me and my family. I work hours upon hours and when I get home that is my time. I WILL answer texts and try to do so pretty regularly. Have I potentially lost business? Maybe so but it's worth it to me to have that time with my wife and daughter. We all make choices in life on where our priorities are. Some choose to be workaholics, some choose to skate by. I do my best to achieve balance. It isn't easy and is something that takes work and is a constant struggle but at the end of the day...all I really OWE my customers is the best lesson possible during the time they have booked with me. Anything else is me doing extra. Am I going to grow a teaching empire or factory like this? Nope, but I am going to live the best life for me and that's good enough.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411234226' post='10153201']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411225929' post='10152739']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411217503' post='10152299']
Some terrible professional jealousy on display in this thread along with a thinly veiled attempt at self promotion. The old backhanded compliment...preface with a few compliments before taking a shot. Embarassing...

Everyone, including golf instructors, has strengths and weaknesses. Geoff is a great teacher and his track record speaks for itself, but he'd be the first to admit that he's not for everyone.

Very lame that another instructor would come into this thread and take an unprovoked shot, and in my view it speaks volumes about character, or lack thereof...
[/quote]

What could I possibly be jealous of? I can assure you there is no jealousy involved, certainly not from a business standpoint as I'm as busy as I would ever want to be and turn down lessons all the time due to not being able to fit 12 hours into a 10 hour day. You can think whatever you want of my character. There was no backhanded compliment. I truly think he is a great teacher and a great guy. But that also doesn't mean that I think it's right for anyone in any business to take multiple days to get back to a current customer and completely ignore potential customers that contact you because you are busy. The response was to your "one man show" comment as if every other instructor out there except a handful aren't "one man shows". And if being a one man show means you can't keep up than maybe you should hire someone to pick up the slack
[/quote]

Have been going back and forth on whether or not to post. Better judgement says no but to heck with that. Slight disagreement with what you are saying. If that is how you choose to service your customers then great. Another business may choose to not do it. Doesn't make one right and one wrong. Makes them different. Customers can do research and find these things out and find the business they want to use. If a business loses customers because of perceived lack of service that really damages nobody but themselves. They really don't owe anything to anybody at that point. I have become harder to reach over the last year. It has to do with a couple things. I have been busier and I had a kid. With both things my time has become more valuable and I DO NOT answer or return calls or emails once I get home at night. It is a personal choice for me and my family. I work hours upon hours and when I get home that is my time. I WILL answer texts and try to do so pretty regularly. Have I potentially lost business? Maybe so but it's worth it to me to have that time with my wife and daughter. We all make choices in life on where our priorities are. Some choose to be workaholics, some choose to skate by. I do my best to achieve balance. It isn't easy and is something that takes work and is a constant struggle but at the end of the day...all I really OWE my customers is the best lesson possible during the time they have booked with me. Anything else is me doing extra. Am I going to grow a teaching empire or factory like this? Nope, but I am going to live the best life for me and that's good enough.
[/quote]

But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.

[J13]

Dan there is no point. So according to FWP a potential student should research the teacher to find out if he or she will teach other students while they are having a private lesson. An also accept someone not returning emails or calls for weeks or months. That's not a different way to run a business it's an irresponsible way to treat people. Double dipping is a no no unless it's agreed upon. I'm amazed proe are defending this. Honestly stunned

[swats]

I was going to post something sarcastic, mentioning how annoying it was for me to "share" time with other people during my visits in TXK, like this Matt Loving guy or this Toms guy with LSU bag and all. But FWP pretty much summed it up perfectly (again), much better than I could. I have never felt short-changed with Geoff (far from it) but that's just my opinion. He ain't perfect (and he'll easily admit as much), but I believe that NO ONE is (or maybe I'm wrong about that? ).

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1411234226' post='10153201']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411225929' post='10152739']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411217503' post='10152299']
Some terrible professional jealousy on display in this thread along with a thinly veiled attempt at self promotion. The old backhanded compliment...preface with a few compliments before taking a shot. Embarassing...

Everyone, including golf instructors, has strengths and weaknesses. Geoff is a great teacher and his track record speaks for itself, but he'd be the first to admit that he's not for everyone.

Very lame that another instructor would come into this thread and take an unprovoked shot, and in my view it speaks volumes about character, or lack thereof...
[/quote]

What could I possibly be jealous of? I can assure you there is no jealousy involved, certainly not from a business standpoint as I'm as busy as I would ever want to be and turn down lessons all the time due to not being able to fit 12 hours into a 10 hour day. You can think whatever you want of my character. There was no backhanded compliment. I truly think he is a great teacher and a great guy. But that also doesn't mean that I think it's right for anyone in any business to take multiple days to get back to a current customer and completely ignore potential customers that contact you because you are busy. The response was to your "one man show" comment as if every other instructor out there except a handful aren't "one man shows". And if being a one man show means you can't keep up than maybe you should hire someone to pick up the slack
[/quote]

Have been going back and forth on whether or not to post. Better judgement says no but to heck with that. Slight disagreement with what you are saying. If that is how you choose to service your customers then great. Another business may choose to not do it. Doesn't make one right and one wrong. Makes them different. Customers can do research and find these things out and find the business they want to use. If a business loses customers because of perceived lack of service that really damages nobody but themselves. They really don't owe anything to anybody at that point. I have become harder to reach over the last year. It has to do with a couple things. I have been busier and I had a kid. With both things my time has become more valuable and I DO NOT answer or return calls or emails once I get home at night. It is a personal choice for me and my family. I work hours upon hours and when I get home that is my time. I WILL answer texts and try to do so pretty regularly. Have I potentially lost business? Maybe so but it's worth it to me to have that time with my wife and daughter. We all make choices in life on where our priorities are. Some choose to be workaholics, some choose to skate by. I do my best to achieve balance. It isn't easy and is something that takes work and is a constant struggle but at the end of the day...all I really OWE my customers is the best lesson possible during the time they have booked with me. Anything else is me doing extra. Am I going to grow a teaching empire or factory like this? Nope, but I am going to live the best life for me and that's good enough.
[/quote]

But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

I try to follow up quickly. Doesn't always happen due to plain forgetfulness sometimes. Doesn't change the fact that if I don't follow up the person I am really harming is myself and I don't OWE anyone my time outside of what they pay for. What I choose to give of myself past that is purely out of generosity not owed. If I don't follow up on a lesson I have hurt nobody but me it can be frustrating for the consumer and probably hurts me long term but it's my prerogative. That may not be popular but it's true of all business

[Darth Leverage]

Fwp do what makes you happy. If you have the work/life balance that you personally need then you will most likely be a happier and more effective coach, no? You have set clear boundaries

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411224759' post='10152673']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411223146' post='10152577']
DSM-V is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that is used by mental health professionals

301.81--NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Let me quote some of descriptions of this disorder

They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments
They have a grandiose sense of self importance,often appearing boastful and pretentious
Their self esteem is often very fragile
They lack empathy
They are often contemptuous and impatient with others
Arrogant ,haughty behaviors characterize these people

Some of the posters on this current golf topic seem to exhibit some or all of the above characteristics,but obviously the ONLY way to tell is to schedule a visit with a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.If you are in the Northern New jersey area,I can help arrange such a visit
[/quote]

So you have experience with psych professionals?
[/quote]

the DSM is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's either been thrown out or on it's way. They come out with a new one every time they want to sugar-coat and lump more people in mental illness. You could literally diagnose any person with autism based on the DSM V, which is why most psychiatrists use the IV now. It's done way more harm than help for the service, and this is coming from someone considering psychiatry. 99% of these guidelines are made by people that don't even practice medicine and make academic stuff to sound good, it would be like if an instructor here didn't teach students and just wrote theoreticals to seem interesting.

Unrelated and not addressed to you 8, if someone thinks they can practice their swing from 8 AM to 10 PM and that has a positive benefit, no idea what to tell you. If something takes that long to ingrain then maybe it's not the right thing to work on? You're going to become exhausted by that time and risk injuries, even if you're taking liberal breaks.. There's a difference between devotion and obsession to the point where it becomes detrimental.

[PreppySlapCut]

The only part I would take issue with is being told I would be 1:1 and then not having that be the case. I've NEVER seen anything that would lead me to believe a trip to Texarcana would be that way, but that's me. Everything else falls under the category of "if you don't like it, find a teacher who operates in a different fashion." I would never tell another pro how to run his business, and I'm not telling a student how he should or shouldn't spend his money. I go to clubs all the time where the level of customer service is nowhere near what I would expect at my club. You know what? It's not my operation.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1411235114' post='10153249']
Dan there is no point. So according to FWP a potential student should research the teacher to find out if he or she will teach other students while they are having a private lesson. An also accept someone not returning emails or calls for weeks or months. That's not a different way to run a business it's an irresponsible way to treat people. Double dipping is a no no unless it's agreed upon. I'm amazed proe are defending this. Honestly stunned
[/quote]

Not defending...am saying it is what it is. Plenty of info on here to know what you are getting so it shouldn't come as a surprise. How a pro chooses to run his operation is purely up to him and at the end if the day only affects him. Also said in my post that all you owe a customer is the time they have booked and paid for. People can then decide if what they are paying is worth what they are getting. Nobody is making people go anywhere for lessons so if they don't like the way things are done in one place they are free to move on. This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? (Slight attempt at caddy shack humor to defuse the situation)

[Grayback1973]

My perspective.....

A year ago I booked a 3 day school with Geoff,bought my plane ticket and was looking forward to it.Weeks before the trip was to happen,I started doing further research,digging deeper to find more out about him.Came across a thread here that shared their experience in Texarcana.It turned into a saga thread like this has become.Ultimately,all I cared about was the honesty that the poster originally wrote regarding his experience.When I considered his experience,my talking with Geoff on the phone,the interview with Ralph on you tube,and very importantly my own experiences with golf instruction the last 12 years I decided to cancel my trip.I ate the cost of the plane ticket because I was that convinced that Geoff wouldn't help me and it would have just been another wasted effort.

I say all of this because there is one important point to get out of this thread.A customer chooses where he spends his money and efforts.He has the internet to research and figure out where he might benefit the most.Nobody forces him to go to a particular instructor.That is ultimately his own choice.Geoff has helped a lot of people become better,no doubt.Dan has helped a lot become better,no doubt.I had a lot of information going into my decision at the beginning and then more at the end.I chose not to go to him,while the guy after me who has the same information I had will decide to go to him.Different things for different people.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411236078' post='10153307']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411224759' post='10152673']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411223146' post='10152577']
DSM-V is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that is used by mental health professionals

301.81--NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Let me quote some of descriptions of this disorder

They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments
They have a grandiose sense of self importance,often appearing boastful and pretentious
Their self esteem is often very fragile
They lack empathy
They are often contemptuous and impatient with others
Arrogant ,haughty behaviors characterize these people

Some of the posters on this current golf topic seem to exhibit some or all of the above characteristics,but obviously the ONLY way to tell is to schedule a visit with a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.If you are in the Northern New jersey area,I can help arrange such a visit
[/quote]

So you have experience with psych professionals?
[/quote]

the DSM is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's either been thrown out or on it's way. They come out with a new one every time they want to sugar-coat and lump more people in mental illness. You could literally diagnose any person with autism based on the DSM V, which is why most psychiatrists use the IV now. It's done way more harm than help for the service, and this is coming from someone considering psychiatry. 99% of these guidelines are made by people that don't even practice medicine and make academic stuff to sound good, it would be like if an instructor here didn't teach students and just wrote theoreticals to seem interesting.

Unrelated and not addressed to you 8, if someone thinks they can practice their swing from 8 AM to 10 PM and that has a positive benefit, no idea what to tell you. If something takes that long to ingrain then maybe it's not the right thing to work on? You're going to become exhausted by that time and risk injuries, even if you're taking liberal breaks.. There's a difference between devotion and obsession to the point where it becomes detrimental.
[/quote]
These quotes were directly from DSM IV not DSM V
To assume that your opinion as a student who admittedly has not yet studied psychiatry supercedes this informaion is just plain SILLY and the height of arrogance on your part

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411238053' post='10153409']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411236078' post='10153307']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411224759' post='10152673']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411223146' post='10152577']
DSM-V is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that is used by mental health professionals

301.81--NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Let me quote some of descriptions of this disorder

They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments
They have a grandiose sense of self importance,often appearing boastful and pretentious
Their self esteem is often very fragile
They lack empathy
They are often contemptuous and impatient with others
Arrogant ,haughty behaviors characterize these people

Some of the posters on this current golf topic seem to exhibit some or all of the above characteristics,but obviously the ONLY way to tell is to schedule a visit with a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.If you are in the Northern New jersey area,I can help arrange such a visit
[/quote]

So you have experience with psych professionals?
[/quote]

the DSM is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's either been thrown out or on it's way. They come out with a new one every time they want to sugar-coat and lump more people in mental illness. You could literally diagnose any person with autism based on the DSM V, which is why most psychiatrists use the IV now. It's done way more harm than help for the service, and this is coming from someone considering psychiatry. 99% of these guidelines are made by people that don't even practice medicine and make academic stuff to sound good, it would be like if an instructor here didn't teach students and just wrote theoreticals to seem interesting.

Unrelated and not addressed to you 8, if someone thinks they can practice their swing from 8 AM to 10 PM and that has a positive benefit, no idea what to tell you. If something takes that long to ingrain then maybe it's not the right thing to work on? You're going to become exhausted by that time and risk injuries, even if you're taking liberal breaks.. There's a difference between devotion and obsession to the point where it becomes detrimental.
[/quote]
This was directly from DSM IV not DSM V
To assume that your opinion as a student who admittedly has not yet studied psychiatry supercedes this informaion is just plain SILLY and the height of arrogance on your part
[/quote]

Are you a psych? Because unless you are, I'm gonna pull rank.... You're right that's from the DSM IV, didn't realize that, but my point is that those definitions are purposefully abstract. There are 6 qualities there that are all exhibited in varying amounts by everyone. Not here to debate medical guidelines anyway. Can't really diagnose a mental disorder based on someone's posts on the internet...

[m111]

A question I'd imagine folks are looking for since seeing this thread get bumped up: is there an update on the book?

[BRIDGESTONE1]

SO, is the book coming out soon?

[dpb5031]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411238728' post='10153447']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411238053' post='10153409']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411236078' post='10153307']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411224759' post='10152673']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411223146' post='10152577']
DSM-V is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that is used by mental health professionals

301.81--NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Let me quote some of descriptions of this disorder

They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments
They have a grandiose sense of self importance,often appearing boastful and pretentious
Their self esteem is often very fragile
They lack empathy
They are often contemptuous and impatient with others
Arrogant ,haughty behaviors characterize these people

Some of the posters on this current golf topic seem to exhibit some or all of the above characteristics,but obviously the ONLY way to tell is to schedule a visit with a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.If you are in the Northern New jersey area,I can help arrange such a visit
[/quote]

So you have experience with psych professionals?
[/quote]

the DSM is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's either been thrown out or on it's way. They come out with a new one every time they want to sugar-coat and lump more people in mental illness. You could literally diagnose any person with autism based on the DSM V, which is why most psychiatrists use the IV now. It's done way more harm than help for the service, and this is coming from someone considering psychiatry. 99% of these guidelines are made by people that don't even practice medicine and make academic stuff to sound good, it would be like if an instructor here didn't teach students and just wrote theoreticals to seem interesting.

Unrelated and not addressed to you 8, if someone thinks they can practice their swing from 8 AM to 10 PM and that has a positive benefit, no idea what to tell you. If something takes that long to ingrain then maybe it's not the right thing to work on? You're going to become exhausted by that time and risk injuries, even if you're taking liberal breaks.. There's a difference between devotion and obsession to the point where it becomes detrimental.
[/quote]
This was directly from DSM IV not DSM V
To assume that your opinion as a student who admittedly has not yet studied psychiatry supercedes this informaion is just plain SILLY and the height of arrogance on your part
[/quote]

Are you a psych? Because unless you are, I'm gonna pull rank.... You're right that's from the DSM IV, didn't realize that, but my point is that those definitions are purposefully abstract. There are 6 qualities there that are all exhibited in varying amounts by everyone. Not here to debate medical guidelines anyway. Can't really diagnose a mental disorder based on someone's posts on the internet...
[/quote]

Who cares about an accurate medical diagnosis anyway? You don't need an MD or a PHD to spot arrogance, condescension, petulance, jealousy, and a generally abhorrent personality...even on the internet.

[bph7]

[quote name='MiamiBall' timestamp='1411239231' post='10153473']
A question I'd imagine folks are looking for since seeing this thread get bumped up: is there an update on the book?
[/quote]

NO

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411239490' post='10153493']
Who cares about an accurate medical diagnosis anyway? You don't need an MD or a PHD to spot arrogance, condescension, petulance, jealousy, and a generally abhorrent personality...even on the internet.
[/quote]

Jealousy? My question is this: Why in the golf industry is there some "sacred" concept of instructors not being able to call out other instructors? If I'm sitting at work and another dude is screwing around and it's negatively affecting me, I'm going to call him out. Everyone is ok with that, except in golf. Why is that? if someone's going to be critical of slice on a website, who cares? People have just as much a right to be critical as they do to be positive about someone/something. This isn't some everybody wins BS where all we can say is good things about people. Screw that.

People can disagree, but don't attack them for having a certain viewpoint. If their viewpoint is so far out in space and your's isn't, it won't resonate with anyone and the problem will solve itself.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1411240413' post='10153525']
[quote name='MiamiBall' timestamp='1411239231' post='10153473']
A question I'd imagine folks are looking for since seeing this thread get bumped up: is there an update on the book?
[/quote]

NO
[/quote]

The book is essentially complete and if Geoff wanted to send it to print, he could. He has chosen not to at this particular point, and that's his prerogative...

I will guarantee that if/when he does release it, it will be well received and will help a lot of players...

[bph7]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411241231' post='10153585']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1411240413' post='10153525']
[quote name='MiamiBall' timestamp='1411239231' post='10153473']
A question I'd imagine folks are looking for since seeing this thread get bumped up: is there an update on the book?
[/quote]

NO
[/quote]

The book is essentially complete and if Geoff wanted to send it to print, he could. He has chosen not to at this particular point, and that's his prerogative...

I will guarantee that if/when he does release it, it will be well received and will help a lot of players...
[/quote]

I know, but all this has been known for awhile. That's why I said there is NO update on the book.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411238728' post='10153447']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411238053' post='10153409']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411236078' post='10153307']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1411224759' post='10152673']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411223146' post='10152577']
DSM-V is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that is used by mental health professionals

301.81--NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
Let me quote some of descriptions of this disorder

They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments
They have a grandiose sense of self importance,often appearing boastful and pretentious
Their self esteem is often very fragile
They lack empathy
They are often contemptuous and impatient with others
Arrogant ,haughty behaviors characterize these people

Some of the posters on this current golf topic seem to exhibit some or all of the above characteristics,but obviously the ONLY way to tell is to schedule a visit with a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.If you are in the Northern New jersey area,I can help arrange such a visit
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So you have experience with psych professionals?
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the DSM is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's either been thrown out or on it's way. They come out with a new one every time they want to sugar-coat and lump more people in mental illness. You could literally diagnose any person with autism based on the DSM V, which is why most psychiatrists use the IV now. It's done way more harm than help for the service, and this is coming from someone considering psychiatry. 99% of these guidelines are made by people that don't even practice medicine and make academic stuff to sound good, it would be like if an instructor here didn't teach students and just wrote theoreticals to seem interesting.

Unrelated and not addressed to you 8, if someone thinks they can practice their swing from 8 AM to 10 PM and that has a positive benefit, no idea what to tell you. If something takes that long to ingrain then maybe it's not the right thing to work on? You're going to become exhausted by that time and risk injuries, even if you're taking liberal breaks.. There's a difference between devotion and obsession to the point where it becomes detrimental.
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This was directly from DSM IV not DSM V
To assume that your opinion as a student who admittedly has not yet studied psychiatry supercedes this informaion is just plain SILLY and the height of arrogance on your part
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Are you a psych? Because unless you are, I'm gonna pull rank.... You're right that's from the DSM IV, didn't realize that, but my point is that those definitions are purposefully abstract. There are 6 qualities there that are all exhibited in varying amounts by everyone. Not here to debate medical guidelines anyway. Can't really diagnose a mental disorder based on someone's posts on the internet...
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You are correct that a number of these definitions are somewhat ambiguous and that DSM V is controversial .Part of the reason why there are more definitions in each succeeding version of the DSM is economic.The more problems that the medical professions deems treatable,the more that the medical profession can bill.Unfortunately ,if you do decide to become a psychiatrist you better get use to the DSM codes at least for billing purposes.
If I remember correctly the definition for narcissistic personalities was very similar in DSM III also.As I mentioned previously, we do agree on the obvious,that visits are required to correctly diagnose any mental disorder. But both of us have been acquainted with people who have an abnormal degree of those behaviors,which most mental health professionals would deem as problems .Many of these individuals never see anyone for their problems.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411241832' post='10153625']

You are correct that a number of these definitions are somewhat ambiguous and that DSM V is somewhat controversial .Part of the reason why there are more definitions in each succeeding version of the DSM is economic.The more problems that the medical professions deems treatable,the more that the medical profession can bill.Unfortunately ,if you do decide to become a psychiatrist you better get use to the DSM codes at least for billing purposes.
If I remember correctly the definition for narcissistic personalities was very similar in DSM III also.As I mentioned previously, we do agree on the obvious,that visits are required to correctly diagnose any mental disorder. But both of us have been acquainted with people who have an abnormal degree of those behaviors,which most mental health professionals would deem as problems .Many of these individuals never see anyone for their problems.
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If you loosely define problems, sure I guess. That's my problem with the whole thing. 1/4 of middle age women are taking anti-depressants right now. Do I believe that 1/4 of middle aged women have a physiological problem where they need chemical help to function? No, not really and I would just say we have an unreasonable expectation of behavior at that point. What's the percentage for where we draw the line and say " ok now X percent are taking them, so maybe we're just holding them to too high of a standard?" That's my biggest problem with psychiatry and these guidelines. They expand to the point where eventually you have more people on drugs than people not on drugs, so what's the point?

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411242673' post='10153683']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411241832' post='10153625']
You are correct that a number of these definitions are somewhat ambiguous and that DSM V is somewhat controversial .Part of the reason why there are more definitions in each succeeding version of the DSM is economic.The more problems that the medical professions deems treatable,the more that the medical profession can bill.Unfortunately ,if you do decide to become a psychiatrist you better get use to the DSM codes at least for billing purposes.
If I remember correctly the definition for narcissistic personalities was very similar in DSM III also.As I mentioned previously, we do agree on the obvious,that visits are required to correctly diagnose any mental disorder. But both of us have been acquainted with people who have an abnormal degree of those behaviors,which most mental health professionals would deem as problems .Many of these individuals never see anyone for their problems.
[/quote]

If you loosely define problems, sure I guess. That's my problem with the whole thing. 1/4 of middle age women are taking anti-depressants right now. Do I believe that 1/4 of middle aged women have a physiological problem where they need chemical help to function? No, not really and I would just say we have an unreasonable expectation of behavior at that point. What's the percentage for where we draw the line and say " ok now X percent are taking them, so maybe we're just holding them to too high of a standard?" That's my biggest problem with psychiatry and these guidelines. They expand to the point where eventually you have more people on drugs than people not on drugs, so what's the point?
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I hope that your attitude towards drugs reflects that of the majority of young people entering the medical profession.No doubt there are FAR too many people on drugs with %20 of people on 5 or more prescription drugs .But is that not testimony to the power of the drug companies and to the acquiescence of doctors

[Hstead]

Well, like FWP I have been reading and hadn't planned on posting since I have been there and done that, literally. I completely understand your stance FPW on how you chose to run your business, I know how Geoff chooses to run his, and I also know personally how Dan runs his. Each has the right to run their business how they chose. But I will disagree on the "information" being out there on exactly what you get in TXAR. Most everyone reading this has probably participated on my original thread that I believe Gray referred to earlier where I tried to give some of my experiences. The reason I am posting now and the reason I posted then is that I felt there was not enough information and what I experienced was nothing like what I had read about. I was shocked to be honest. I sugar coated my last thread. I can't tell you either how many PM's I received from guys that had experiences just like mine but never posted about it.

So after much debate with myself, I feel compelled to tell how my experience went. I am a straight forward kind of guy and I call a spade a spade. I will preface this with my experience may not be the norm, it may be the minority, many may have incredible experiences, but I can promise it is not isolated either. I believe rteach1 has already confirmed he had the same as I so again, this may or may not happen to you, but here is a 100% honest assessment of how my TXAR trip went.

My first day began with just me and Geoff at it started at 10:15 not 8 am. I was there at 10. We shot the crap for ten minutes and then he videoed my swing. We then sat at the computer for almost an hour and 45 minutes going over what he feels the swing should look like and what he thinks I need to change. He draws on the glove, changes the setup, and you watch a lot of footage of Hogan, Matt, and other students. He explains his beliefs and tells unrelated golf stories during that time. He then sent me out to hit 9 to 3's. He went to lunch at 12 and returned at almost 2 pm. He had two other fellas show up on that day, one is CSagan from this site and the other was a guy that had been staying with him for several months. Those two guys were very good players themselves and great guys in general. They would often try to help me along all three days. So from 2 to 3:30 Geoff is mostly on the phone and at his computer. At not time did we have any more contact. At 3:30 his "one hour lesson" shows up that is paying $150. That guy gets the exact same info I got, videoed his swing, sat at the computer for an hour and a half looking at Hogan et al. So all this time I have had no more contact. Also, from 3:30 on, about five high school kids show up and one ex college player. Geoff worked with one of the high school kids for 20 minutes or so and the ex college guy for 30. I did not feel comfortable going and asking questions when he had other guys there. I did voice that I wanted more video and had questions and I was told "we have three days, don't worry we have all kinds of time". We ended the day with Geoff grinding both of our wedges. The day ended at 6 or so, maybe 6:30 but sure as heck not 10 pm.

Day 2 was raining so we had to take turns hitting out of the garage door in the morning. Again, we started after 10 am. It was myself, CSagan, aspiring pro, Geoff's son, and one of his sons friends. We are each taking a turn hitting out of the garage door for about an hour and 15 minutes. I am getting to hit one every sixth time or so because Geoff is also hitting some. Geoff, his son, and sons friends were all hitting left handed and taking more swings than myself or CSagan etc. I then started thinking to myself that this sucks. I was there paying $1250 to get the same exact thing the guy the day before paid $150 for, same exact stuff, same time, same amount of attention. An now I am taking turns hitting while guys are screwing off hitting left handed. Geoff does work with me during this hour and a half or so, but like I said I am getting to hit a shot about once every seven or eight minutes. The sun comes out and we go out doors and he watches me hit some 9 to 3's, about five minutes worth. Then at 12 he wants to go to lunch, so he, I, and CSagan go to lunch and it is almost a two hour lunch. Now guys talked about needing a babysitter etc and some guys can't focus on a drill yada yada. Well I am here to tell you I can out work the best of them and I do not want to take a two hour lunch, instead I want to be on the range working on stuff. Dan can attest to my work ethic when it comes to a lesson. He can match my stamina and we spend 5 hours straight focused on what we are doing, which I can promise is more beneficial than getting a look here and there between other guys. So we get back from lunch, I go hit balls with CSagan and pro, Geoff gets on phone, computer etc. then a new "one hour lesson" shows at 3:30, same exact stuff as day 1. High school kids show up. I do manage to get in between other lessons and tell him I need help and want videoed that I have no clue where the club is because it id new and I need to see it. He promises to do it and never does. The aspiring pro feels bad for me, tells me so, and gets his camera out and he spent more time with me than Geoff. Day 2 ends at 6 or so again. CSagan, pro, and myself go to dinner on night 2. All day I am feeling like I am getting the shaft. Here I am paying $1250 and guys are coming in paying $150 and getting the same exact stuff I am, and then others are paying nothing and getting nearly as much time as I am. I felt like a complete fool. Like a pigeon. All I was there for was to pay the electric bill is how I felt. I was really disappointed. Nothing like I had read about. So at dinner, I never had biotched about anything, just kept it to myself, when pro and CSagan ask, "how do you think it is going"? I gave them the truth about how I felt. Both opened up and started telling me how they would be ticked off too if they were me and that I was getting totally shafted. They both said it didn't used to be that way when they started with him but it was becoming more and more so like what was happening to me. They knew I was mad and sad they would be too.

So on Day 3, they stayed behind a little because I told them I wanted to have a one on one conversation with Geoff. I explained to Geoff exactly how I felt. I did not sugar coat anything, I did not get angry and raise my voice, I simply told him I thought it was BS and why. He completely agreed and he said "I don't like excuses, but here is what is going on". He then made several excuses about his health, stress, personal stuff. So that is what happened. He said he had not spent time with me because he thought "I got it". During that conversation I asked, what the heck is going to be on my DVD because he had no video of my swing. I told him it would be the shortest video ever. I promise my video is not six hours long. Not even an hour. And none of it is me with the exception of the swing I brought with me. So he apologized profusely and promised to do better. We sat down again at the computer for almost an hour going over the same exact crap we did before, watching Hogan, Matt, other students. Not me though. I do not learn that way. I can watch Hogan on my own. I need drills, I need instruction, I need video, etc. What I call a lesson. I do not need philosophy about the swing of the greats. I am not Hogan and swinging like Hogan does not work for me. I can play by the way as Dan can attest as well. I am not a hack and can shoot under par. I have gone to good instructors before and bad, and I know something about how a good lesson goes vs a bad one. So even though he made the promise on Day 3, unfortunately it went much the same as the first two because he had kids showing up, Zack Fisher showed up, actually on Day 2, he worked with his son, he had "one hour lessons" etc he just could not spend time with me too. He finally videoed my swing without me knowing as I was hitting balls at the end of the range from about 40 yards away and at an oblique angle off of my right butt cheek at about a 50* angle. It was useless. He yells at me to come watch it as it is about 5:30 at this point and I have been pounding balls on my own and with pro's help all day. He said I "got it" but I felt like it was awful. We then went over the mental game stuff and the short game and he stayed until about 7 pm working with me and CSagan on short game. He then at the end said he only wanted $500, and I handed him $750 and he said to call him, text him, send him video and he would help me. So i sent a video after about a week of working at home on my own via email. I never heard from him ever. No reply.

While I was there in the loft, CSagan started telling me about all of the previous Geoff students that had left and gone to Dan and how he had plans to do so too and how much guys were saying they were improving going to Dan. He pulled up Dans youtube page and showed me a bunch of before and afters. Tembolo was the one that sold me really. When I saw his changes I decided to hit up Dan. I sent Dan an email and video the same day I sent Geoff one. Dan sent me his phone number within 10 minutes and we were talking on then phone and setting up visit. He told me some things to change before I got there and the rest is history.

Now I get accused of being Dan's cheerleader, marketing arm, et al all of the time around here and at times people have told me they get sick of me talking about how good Dan is. Why does that not also apply to Geoff? For some reason, no one has ever been allowed to criticize Geoff. I can't tell you how many PM's I got after the first post I made where I was really complementary of Geoff and I never laid it all out there like this before.

For the guys that love Geoff and are getting what they feel they pay for, then more power to you all and I hope you all become State Am champs, or Club Champs, or whatever aspirations you have as a player. All the best to you guys. I understand some of you all love the guy and he has helped you immensely and I completely understand, and by no means am saying he can't help people. I am just telling my story and my experience which I wished someone would have told me before CSagan did after I got to TXAR.

[dirthead]

Hstead,

Great writeup. I can't comment on Geoff's teaching abilities or "customer service", since I've never seen him, but I can attest to Dan's. I spent a day and a half with him last summer. I had his undivided attention the entire time. We had lots of range time, video and Flightscope analysis, and played 18 holes each day. It was just him and I, no distractions. I sent multiple emails in the following months asking questions, and he always replied almost immediately. Dan is a fantastic teacher. Not only can he diagnose your problems quickly, but he can explain it in a way that is easy to understand. He wants you to understand WHY you are doing something a certain way. I've also spent time with Monte, and he is the same way. They actually told me some very similar things. I would not hesitate to take lessons from either of them. Their knowledge of the swing (and game of golf), and their fast communication when you have a questions is really great. Once again, I'm not knocking Geoff as I've never been to Texarkana, so I really have no personal experience with him.