SLICEFIXER BOOK UPDATE

[Lefthook]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411245539' post='10153803']
Well, like FWP I have been reading and hadn't planned on posting since I have been there and done that, literally. I completely understand your stance FPW on how you chose to run your business, I know how Geoff chooses to run his, and I also know personally how Dan runs his. .....
[/quote]

HStead,

I am a die hard Geoff fan and I will probably remain so for the rest of my life. But I can understand why you turned away from GJ after this. I would have done the same. And I would possibly have asked for a full refund as well....

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411254078' post='10154293']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411245539' post='10153803']
Well, like FWP I have been reading and hadn't planned on posting since I have been there and done that, literally. I completely understand your stance FPW on how you chose to run your business, I know how Geoff chooses to run his, and I also know personally how Dan runs his. .....
[/quote]

HStead,

I am a die hard Geoff fan and I will probably remain so for the rest of my life. But I can understand why you turned away from GJ after this. I would have done the same. And I would possibly have asked for a full refund as well....
[/quote]

Not sure I would have asked for full but I hope those specific points of heath's story resonate with people that he wasn't trying to screw anyone or look for a bad experience. It seems to me like he was pretty generous and chill compared to the shafting he got, so that makes me take his story 2x as serious compared to someone who had done the opposite in that situation.

[Hstead]

I am not saying Geoff isn't capable as he has so many good players it is obvious he is capable as a teacher. I am also not saying that everyone is going to have the experience I had, because there are plenty of guys that have had good experiences including CSagan when he first went to Geoff. At the same time, there are a lot of guys that have had similar experiences to me and I am certain Geoff knows it. Geoff knows his strengths and weaknesses. Communication is not his strength, nor organization, and when I say communication I mean email, text, phone, not his ability to explain something in person which is a strength. He will be the first to tell you he is ADHD and loses his attention quickly. He has his way of doing things, some people like it some times it doesn't work. I am sure if I had his undivided attention he could have helped, but unfortunately I did not get that. I understand his son is doing very well, he gets his attention and is an example of what Geoff can do if he is focused and spends the appropriate amount of time. I have just tried to be honest so guys know what they may or may not receive for $1250 instead of a fairy tale that used to be portrayed around here for a long time.

[dpb5031]

So, how did this particular thread morph into an “Angie’s List” of golf swing instructors...lol? I thought it was a thread about Slicefixer’s book?

Like it or not, Geoff Jones [b]earned[/b] his stellar reputation here by helping countless GolfWRXers, most of whom have never seen him in person. More than any other instructor on these forums, Geoff Jones’s ideas about how to swing a golf club, which he shared for free on these pages…resonated with readers (and even other instructors), and helped them improve. In addition to that, many more have benefited from actually seeing him live and “in person.” Safe to say it’s been a mutually beneficial relationship between GJ, GolfWRX, and the GolfWRX community at large.

Geoff was very much the pioneer, but much the same can be said for other instructors who have followed in Geoff’s footsteps here. Super-knowledgeable and credible guys like Jim Waldron, Ft. Worth Pro (M.M.), Monte Scheinblum, Dan C., et. al., have all been great contributors.

Now, wouldn’t everyone agree that no instructor is going to be the right fit for 100% of the golfing population? In any business there are bound to be some un-met expectations and dissatisfied customers. If dissatisfied students were to post their comments in a “Review of Private lessons with Geoff Jones thread,” no one would be making a stink.

…but that’s not what happened…

Dan C., (another instructor) made a conscious choice to post criticism of Geoff’s business practices in [b]THIS[/b] thread? [b]HE[/b] chose to knock Geoff [b]HERE[/b]. Why here, and why at all? It reeks of opportunism, jealousy, self-promotion, arrogance and narcissism… and is certainly a far cry from “taking the high road,” in [b]ANY[/b] business! And it’s not the first time Dan C. and his minions have taken a totally unprovoked and unnecessary shot at Geoff.

I know for a fact that GJ is too much of a gentleman to conduct himself in such a manner. His record here proves as much. Geoff had many a spirited debate with other instructors over the years, but [b]ALWAYS[/b] treated them with respect, even when he vehemently disagreed.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to more generous towards each other than this.


Edit: Toned it down.

[bph7]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411256046' post='10154413']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to be loyal to each other, against the crowd of amateurs like myself.

If you've got something to say in defense of Geoff, say it. Otherwise stf up.

You look like you're fishing in another man's pond here. Your engagement in this thread is disgraceful.
[/quote]

Everything dan has said has been factual or commenting on other people's factual experiences. What is he (or anyone) doing wrong on this this thread? If someone wants to dispute facts or thinks someone is making stuff up, that's one thing,
But, for better or worse, this just seems to be people discussing their experiences and philosophies. I guess you could argue it's off topic, and maybe should be in it's own thread, but that seems like stretching a bit just to stop a conversation that others seem to be interested in having.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411256046' post='10154413']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to be loyal to each other, against the crowd of amateurs like myself.

If you've got something to say in defense of Geoff, say it. Otherwise stf up.

You look like you're fishing in another man's pond here. Your engagement in this thread is disgraceful.
[/quote]

Why should they be loyal to each other? What courtesy do they owe each other? The culture you're emphasizing is the reason that golf instruction was so stagnant for so long.

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411176544' post='10150743']
[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1411175676' post='10150667']
Dan, Geoff has never been banned from Golfwrx for questionable behaviors, can you say the same about your self?

Besides, I am a student of Geoff Jones, and He gets back to me in a timely manner for his schedule. Which is normally with in 2-3 days, and thats even while he is traveling. Should I expect more as some one that sees him once per year?
[/quote]
I have never been banned or even suspended from golfwrx. Thanx for ensenuating so though.

I respond to everyone within 24 hours, many times within a few hours, whether they are regulars or have never once come to see me or given me a dime. To me yes 2-3 days is way too long to wait. I turn around online lessons within 24-48 hours while on the road traveling which take infinitely longer than a email or text. Not everyone shares the same definition of good customer service but I know what mine is.
[/quote]

I can vouch for Iteach's customer service ethic. I submitted video for an online lesson. Received an email within hours saying that he would be late with the analysis. Pretty sure i received it within 36hrs, and that is with a very unfavourable time difference between Florida and New Zealand.

I remember vividly his reason for the delay - I have to take the little lady out for dinner. Cracked me up…we've all been there

So what could have been a 'bad start' was saved by quick and honest communication…and all that from a one-man band.

[J13]

Hstead the most disturbing part to your story is the fact that if you never confronted him would he have taken responsibility for the poor customer service or just accepted your $1250. Your story is frustrating to read to be honest. I couldn't imagine going through that after paying for travel, lodging, and instruction. This is why I worked with Iteach. Like you I had some bad experiences with teachers but with Iteach I flew in and literally had 100% of his attention for 3 days straight. Not too mention on course instruction and flightscope numbers from various tee boxes on the course. After our allotted time ended each day he the taught other students but NEVER during.

Just sounds like he has his inner circle and anyone outside of it gets a half a$$ed lesson. Honestly he showed you Hogan video for over an hour????? WHO DOES THAT LOL

[AM19]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411256046' post='10154413']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to be loyal to each other, against the crowd of amateurs like myself.

If you've got something to say in defense of Geoff, say it. Otherwise stf up.

You look like you're fishing in another man's pond here. Your engagement in this thread is disgraceful.
[/quote]

I have no side in this argument, but I will say I don't understand posts like these. Whether you like him or not, I know that many people enjoy and learn from Dan's contributions here, and he is just as entitled as any other member to post on any thread he chooses.

To me, it seems all Dan pointed out was that many golf instructors don't have assistants, everything after that was an escalation based on an our way or the highway mentality which is increasingly prevalent on wrx, taking every comment as an attack and then making every thread a fight, rather than a debate. Frankly, I don't see how you could find any of Dan's posts to be disgraceful. If anything, what is disgraceful is how unable some people are to come to terms with the fact that people are different, and as such, their opinions will differ

[dpb5031]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411256533' post='10154461']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411256046' post='10154413']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to be loyal to each other, against the crowd of amateurs like myself.

If you've got something to say in defense of Geoff, say it. Otherwise stf up.

You look like you're fishing in another man's pond here. Your engagement in this thread is disgraceful.
[/quote]

Why should they be loyal to each other? What courtesy do they owe each other? The culture you're emphasizing is the reason that golf instruction was so stagnant for so long.
[/quote]

So in your view it's productive for one professional to malign another's business practices? It's not like it's swing theory that's being discussed here. Some pretty harsh judgements are being thrown around based upon a very small number of anecdotal claims, and it's largely been instigated by a fellow golf professional. Very sad...

This is bad form and not in the spirit of camaraderie that I know and have grown to appreciate about the GolfWRX community. I suppose Dan C. and his shills are happy that they have shifted this discussion into a Dan Carraher v. Geoff Jones customer service debate. I probably shouldn't be surprised. In my view, Dan's interference in this thread is unnecessary, in poor taste, and just another disgraceful and shameless attempt to use Slicefixer's notoriety and popularity for his own gain...

[chrisgilly09]

Lol now they have been called shills and minions, who's disparaging who? I haven't talked with either man, other than correspondence here and they were both solid knowledgeable guys. But count me as one who is now not gonna buy the book because of how long it's taken to come out

[Hstead]

@dpb - we have had many good conversations, I hope you are not referring to me as a "shill"? If I am a "shill" then what does that make you in relation to Geoff?

Dan has his supporters and Geoff has his. Neither is right nor wrong. Geoff works for some and not for others. I posted as a response to some of the inaccuracies in this thread and took particular exception to jurr stating some want a "magic wand" "need a babysitter", "can't focus for 60 minutes on a drill" etc. I took that quite personal. I did not expect a babysitter, magic wand, and am more than capable of working hard at my golf game. I did expect some one on one instruction, more so than the guys that get "one hour lessons" paying an 1/8th of what I was paying. He took quite a few shots at my teacher which to be frank is something he knows nothing about as he has not worked with Dan. I have worked with both and have a much better understanding of what both guys do during a lesson. Am I supposed to sit here and watch guys like that make inaccurate fallacies and let it go without a rebuttal?

Right is right and wrong is wrong. I am not afraid to say it. Geoff is far from perfect. Dan is not either. And it is also not right to attack Dan and then say no one can criticize Geoff. Let the truth be the truth. Why hide imperfections? Let people know the truth and let them decide. There will be plenty of guys like you that have had success with Geoff and know how Geoff operates that will continue to work with him. Then there will be guys that decide they want to work with Dan, then guys that like Monte's approach, or FPW, or JW, or PKTD, or lv_2, or Martin Chuck, or Doc. There are plenty of guys out there more than capable of improving a student. Let students know what to expect from each teacher. Nothing wrong with shedding light on strengths as well as weaknesses.

This entire thread is a perfect example. How many times has the book been promised to be released? It was guaranteed last June during the US Open. Then this year during the summer. It is almost becoming a joke. I never posted in this thread for a reason as I had no intentions in buying the book and also did not want to give an opinion on whether or not it will be released because honest I could care less. It seems any time I post it is often taken out of context and somehow always an attack on Geoff. It gets tiresome really. I guess I am just supposed to act like my experience never happened? This by the way is the first time I have ever actually publicly laid it all out how bad my experience actually was. On my other thread I did not reveal everything and in fact I still haven't. There is more.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1411262797' post='10154913']
@dpb - we have had many good conversations, I hope you are not referring to me as a "shill"? If I am a "shill" then what does that make you in relation to Geoff?

Dan has his supporters and Geoff has his. Neither is right nor wrong. Geoff works for some and not for others. I posted as a response to some of the inaccuracies in this thread and took particular exception to jurr stating some want a "magic wand" "need a babysitter", "can't focus for 60 minutes on a drill" etc. I took that quite personal. I did not expect a babysitter, magic wand, and am more than capable of working hard at my golf game. I did expect some one on one instruction, more so than the guys that get "one hour lessons" paying an 1/8th of what I was paying. He took quite a few shots at my teacher which to be frank is something he knows nothing about as he has not worked with Dan. I have worked with both and have a much better understanding of what both guys do during a lesson. Am I supposed to sit here and watch guys like that make inaccurate fallacies and let it go without a rebuttal?

Right is right and wrong is wrong. I am not afraid to say it. Geoff is far from perfect. Dan is not either. [color=#ff0000]And it is also not right to attack Dan and then say no one can criticize Geoff. [/color] Let the truth be the truth. Why hide imperfections? Let people know the truth and let them decide. There will be plenty of guys like you that have had success with Geoff and know how Geoff operates that will continue to work with him. Then there will be guys that decide they want to work with Dan, then guys that like Monte's approach, or FPW, or JW, or PKTD, or lv_2, or Martin Chuck, or Doc. There are plenty of guys out there more than capable of improving a student. Let students know what to expect from each teacher. Nothing wrong with shedding light on strengths as well as weaknesses.

This entire thread is a perfect example. How many times has the book been promised to be released? It was guaranteed last June during the US Open. Then this year during the summer. It is almost becoming a joke. I never posted in this thread for a reason as I had no intentions in buying the book and also did not want to give an opinion on whether or not it will be released because honest I could care less. It seems any time I post it is often taken out of context and somehow always an attack on Geoff. It gets tiresome really. I guess I am just supposed to act like my experience never happened? This by the way is the first time I have ever actually publicly laid it all out how bad my experience actually was. On my other thread I did not reveal everything and in fact I still haven't. There is more.
[/quote]

No one attacked Dan here. He came into this thread unsolicited and on his own accord and criticized Geoff for the way he runs his business. I think that was flat-out wrong and speaks volumes about Dan's character and professionalism, or rather, lack thereof. Others agreed and that's why we jumped on him.

In the past you have started threads about your wonderful experiences with Dan, while at the same time being critical of your experience with Geoff. Sure, like Dan did here, you throw in the disclaimers and caveats (Geoff's a great guy, helps many, etc., etc.,) but the message was clear, and with your thread title, not surprisingly controversial. That's your prerogative, but it's not my style.

[Psi high]

The title to this thread is misleading. I might be wrong, but I don't think Geoff has commented on this forum about his book. These so called updates or promises are not from him. A better title might be "Anyone Think Slicefixer Will Publish His Book." Or "Vegas Odds Geoff's Book Is Going To Print."

[bph7]

[quote name='Psi high' timestamp='1411265529' post='10155141']
The title to this thread is misleading. I might be wrong, but I don't think Geoff has commented on this forum about his book. These so called updates or promises are not from him. A better title might be "Anyone Think Slicefixer Will Publish His Book." Or "Vegas Odds Geoff's Book Is Going To Print."
[/quote]

His publisher or somebody very involved in it's creation has made posts that seem to have info that is directly from Geoff, so there is actual info, I don't think that's misleading.

[Hstead]

Seriously? No one attacked Dan here yet in the very same paragraph you run him through the shredder and attack him? Pot, meet kettle. Have you read what you posted? You have attacked him personally, his character, his professionalism, etc and russ insinuated he has a mental disorder. Would you like for me to go on about some of my Geoff stories? It seems Lefthook is the only guy capable of saying what he said. My experience was worse than bad. There is no denying that fact and Geoff came on my thread and stated such. Yet for some reason I still am not allowed to say it to this day or guys get their feelings hurt. I have withheld the details for a year and a half until now because Jurr80 attacked Dan. If you can't see that then you are wearing larger GJ glasses than I thought.

You say it is not your style? Yet your style is to call names and such. I have not called Geoff names or attacked him personally.

It is pretty easy to go back and see how this started. A poster talked about how he was trying to get in touch with Geoff and never gets a reply. That has been more than a common theme over the years here. It is common knowledge that Geoff is hard to get in touch with and he does not respond. Maybe he responds to who he wants to and does not others, that is his choice too. Dan gave his opinion that it was not good business practice. How can you argue with that? Do you think Geoff has good communication skills when it comes to replying to people? Do you think all of these guys posting that they can't get in touch with him are lying and undercover Dan minions? Geoff actually told more than one guy that I was a plant and it was all a conspiracy against him. Seriously? You want to talk about character issues and mental disorders? I was a plant and conspired to make him look bad and some how I knew I was going to drive down from Ohio and he was going to be lazy as all get out and then offer me a reduced rate? Two members here PM'd me with the same story that was independent of each other over a period of time. I would think that classifies as a character issue myself too.

[ej002]

What ever happened to Rankoutsider? He was the original drafter.....

[magdocjr]

First and foremost I have zero loyalty to ANY instructor on this forum. With that being said, I came to this forum looking for an instructor that can take my game to the next level for me. I have been a member here for just over a year. I have read the 9to3 thread and every other thread on any instructor that has been touted here at least 2-3 times. As the CONSUMER I will be when I choose my instructor, as are people that do business with me in my profession, I will spend my money where customer service is top notch and the quality of product is of equal value in MY eyes. Some have had great experiences with Slicefixer and some not so much. Personally, if I spent the time, resources, money, and energy to go see GJ and was treated like some of the experiences I have read about, I would have walked off the first day after I had spoken my mind. Customer service will make or break a person's reputation if they are in the "service" industry.

[Soloman1]

So, we all need invitations to post, or we are doing so "unsolicited?"

I would say you're the one way out of line. Both you (dpb) and lefthook are using antagonistic language meant to incite emotion. I read nothing in Dan's posts that is disrespectful.

You do not "own" this thread. It appears that your goal is to get it locked. Are you trying to put an end to anything other than glowing reverence?

If you two are going to hold Geoff up as the Messiah of golf instruction, a little truth should be welcome. Actually, you have it backwards. Teachers should not "cover" for each other, they should insist their contemporaries correct any faults for the betterment of the industry as a whole.

I think the industry has an image problem from uneven teaching and that can be placed squarely at the feet of the PGA of America. It's more interested in protecting the old boy network, its dues income and influence to control employment at golf courses than holding members responsible to any standard whatsoever of teaching performance.

All that aside, it's honorable for people to tell the truth instead of walk on eggshells. It's 2014 and the internet allows consumers to hear the good and bad of companies, products and service. People can gauge motivations and how much they want to weigh comments, praise or criticism.

[swats]

I think what is pathetically ironic is that we're bitching about the top 1% of golf instruction and yet I see guys like the local range pro here with a relatively full lesson book telling people to swing out to right field and roll their wrists.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1411262025' post='10154857']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411256533' post='10154461']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1411256046' post='10154413']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1411234597' post='10153229']
But do you reply to them the next day or in a normal amount of time? My guess says yes. I'm guessing you don't completely ignore them or take a few months to reply follow up emails.
[/quote]

This is supposed to be a forum for golfing enthusiasts. I would expect the teaching professionals to be loyal to each other, against the crowd of amateurs like myself.

If you've got something to say in defense of Geoff, say it. Otherwise stf up.

You look like you're fishing in another man's pond here. Your engagement in this thread is disgraceful.
[/quote]

Why should they be loyal to each other? What courtesy do they owe each other? The culture you're emphasizing is the reason that golf instruction was so stagnant for so long.
[/quote]

So in your view it's productive for one professional to malign another's business practices? It's not like it's swing theory that's being discussed here. Some pretty harsh judgements are being thrown around based upon a very small number of anecdotal claims, and it's largely been instigated by a fellow golf professional. Very sad...

This is bad form and not in the spirit of camaraderie that I know and have grown to appreciate about the GolfWRX community. I suppose Dan C. and his shills are happy that they have shifted this discussion into a Dan Carraher v. Geoff Jones customer service debate. I probably shouldn't be surprised. In my view, Dan's interference in this thread is unnecessary, in poor taste, and just another disgraceful and shameless attempt to use Slicefixer's notoriety and popularity for his own gain...
[/quote]

Camaraderie? Dude this is the real world, not some website. Being a member on a website doesn't change the dynamics of social interaction. Explain to me what is different about golf than every other profession where it's ok to call out people that have the same job as you.

[SullGolf]

I don't want to pile on too much, but I just want to add that I've never seen slicefixer post a single time on this forum. I'm not really a newbie, but not the old guard either (~2 years account, another year lurking). I know that at one point he was active, and he was apparently helpful to many. But that is no longer the case. For anyone who wasn't active on the forum 5 years ago, the only reason he is known is because 1) there is an old sticky thread, and 2) russc talks about him a lot. It's all 2nd and 3rd hand info at this point, which can do more harm than good. Might be time to just let the sticky thread go.

[DavidFrost'sApprentice]

Both instructors seem to be great at what they do for a living and run their businesses differently. Both have truckloads of very satisfied customers (myself being one of Geoff's). Let's move on - this isn't a yelp review.

[ej002]

[quote name='swats' timestamp='1411267477' post='10155287']
I think what is pathetically ironic is that we're bitching about the top 1% of golf instruction and yet I see guys like the local range pro here with a relatively full lesson book telling people to swing out to right field and roll their wrists.
[/quote]

Who is saying that?

Bc I will tell you what - down and out and roll that lead forearm - now your talking. But most hand handle that

[tembolo1284]

Would help if geoff posted around here once in awhile.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411269427' post='10155473']
Would help if geoff posted around here once in awhile.
[/quote]
A better bet would be that you become a vegetarian

[swats]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1411269254' post='10155443']
[quote name='swats' timestamp='1411267477' post='10155287']
I think what is pathetically ironic is that we're bitching about the top 1% of golf instruction and yet I see guys like the local range pro here with a relatively full lesson book telling people to swing out to right field and roll their wrists.
[/quote]

Who is saying that?

Bc I will tell you what - down and out and roll that lead forearm - now your talking. But most hand handle that
[/quote]

Who is saying what? I'm just mentioning that we are arguing who's better of the best of the best of golf instruction while i witness on a weekly basis horrible local pros dishing out cookie- cutter golf digest tip blurb advise. Just funny to me that's all.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411269758' post='10155497']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411269427' post='10155473']
Would help if geoff posted around here once in awhile.
[/quote]
A better bet would be that you become a vegetarian
[/quote]LOL, seriously, that is funny. What are you thinking asparagus wrapped in bacon, does that count?

[CSagan]

You guys have the wool pulled over your eyes. Dan C is rustling this thread up for marketing the release of Geoff's book during the Ryder Cup! They are in cahoots I tell ya....cahoots!