It's official: USGA, R&A propose anchor ban

[307golf]

Obesity is not defined as a disability (last time I checked) so the ADA will not apply.

[Puddin]

[quote name='golfinbrad' timestamp='1354121259' post='5989903']
[quote name='Puddin' timestamp='1354120513' post='5989815']
I havent read every post, hope I'm not duplicating efforts here. I wonder how much revenue is at stake if the putters are banned. Will the manufacturers still produce them after 2016? I agree with the proposal by the way.
[/quote]

Putter weren't banned. They just cannot be anchored.
[/quote] I stand corrected. However, if most go back to a more standard putter, the long or belly putters sales would drop drastically. Pro shops would be stuck with them. That's the revenue I speak of. or lack there of.

[rustyputterguy]

Why would this rule stop people with bad backs from using a long putter? I have a long putter in my office and have messed around with it without anchoring and it's still a very sound stroke. You don't have to bend as much so it's easy on the back and you can still make a good stroke. What's the big deal?

[ElVerde]

I don't really understand the comments saying "ban the Pro V1, ban the 460cc driver." Well, I mean, I understand the comments, I just don't see how it's relevant to THIS discussion.

This is not an equipment rule, this is a technique rule. If you'd like your putter to be made of pure diamond, coated in manatee oil, and be the size of a dinner plate with a 16 foot shaft, FINE! This rule is banning a type of stroke, and has nothing to do with any equipment.

[rustyputterguy]

[quote name='ElVerde' timestamp='1354128981' post='5990579']
I don't really understand the comments saying "ban the Pro V1, ban the 460cc driver." Well, I mean, I understand the comments, I just don't see how it's relevant to THIS discussion.

This is not an equipment rule, this is a technique rule. If you'd like your putter to be made of pure diamond, coated in manatee oil, and be the size of a dinner plate with a 16 foot shaft, FINE! This rule is banning a type of stroke, and has nothing to do with any equipment.
[/quote]
I agree. Also, if you're saying anchoring isn't an advantage, then why compare it to equipment that does provide an advantage?

[DRE-DAY]

Cut them bellies down and stroke em like nobody is watching!

Birdie!

[farmer]

I think the good young players, Bradley et al, will adapt and be fine. Juniors, I suspect, are trying this method because it's kind of a fad, they'll be fine. What I see is that in every club in the world, the resident amateur rules guru (every club has some) are going to be even more annoying. OT, but what is this "practicing" that so many have mentioned?

[cardoustie]

Can't believe a few things

- it is a "proposal"
- arm anchoring OK but long and belly/sternum/chin is not?

VERY WEAKLY worded and I can't wait for the lawsuits. USGA will get pummeled. Zero empirical evidence and a history of use going way back

I can just imagine learning to putt like like Kuch and then that gets banned

Anyone know how to turn a long putter into an arm putter for an experiment? Loft? Length? Last yr at the PGA show I did see a few putters in the SeeMore booth that they were calling ARM putters

You can't logistically rule out certain types of anchoring in my opinion

[Dire Wolf]

The "proposed" language states the forearms can't be held against the body to create anchor points. Does this include the thighs? I recall seeing footage of Arnold Palmer using that "pop" stroke, and a lot of the time it looked like he had his forearms rooted against his thighs while putting with just his wrists.

The graphic in the OP shows some examples of forearms and elbows held against the body that are legal, but in order for them to be considered OK they would have be be part of an overall stroke that does not have an "anchor point" for the stroke created by that forearm rooting, by my reading.

I wonder if this ruling makes the stroke Palmer used illegal?

[cardoustie]

[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354128261' post='5990537']
[attachment=1434297:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.31 AM.png][attachment=1434301:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.03 AM.png]


Looks like discrimination against fat people. Can I file a suit for Americans with disabilities?
[/quote]

how could they possibly rule if your forearm is against your side or not in the left image

[monkeynaut]

[quote name='stimpmeterp' timestamp='1354127583' post='5990489']
[size=5]All - which pro golfers' current stroke will be prohibited by this rule, when/if implemented? I've scrolled through 6 pages without seeing that mentioned. Can some motivated soul put together a list with pictorial for us to review? [/size]
[size=5]-Stimp[/size]
[/quote]
Well, let's start with the obvious. Anyone feel free to add to the list.


Adam Scott
Keegan Bradley
Webb Simpson
Ernie Els
Tim Clark
Carl Petterson
Robert Garrigus (currently, he could go back to baby putter)
Kevin Stadler
Vijay Singh

[cardoustie]

i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

An injury is not the same as a birth defect. Are we going to make rules protecting players from the effects of all injuries, now?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

Another ill informed member who apparently hasn't taken the time to read the rule. They can still use a long putter. I appreciate that everyone has an opinion and am happy we have a place to share them, but they announced the rule. The end of the speculation is at hand. We know what's going to happen, so maybe know what you're speaking on before posting.

[Dano golf]

Again, swing the club with your hands and quit whining! It's Golf, for goodness sakes! Straddling and Pool Cue styles were tried and deemed against the rules too. I'll say that within a year or two after this goes into affect (and it will) nobody will care anymore. It really does support the
the spirit of the game, test your skills at controlling the golf ball and get it in the hole in the least amount of strokes, by swinging the golf club!!!! All will be doing the same thing, what's the big deal? Oh BTW, should we have to play the ball as it lies?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130362' post='5990715']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

An injury is not the same as a birth defect. Are we going to make rules protecting players from the effects of all injuries, now?
[/quote]

And even if the case could be made they are similar enough, if for nothing more than the sake of this conversation, what could the argument possibly be? I had back surgery, therefore I need to anchor the putter? That is why the ruling is directed at how a stroke is made, and what makes a legal stroke. It ends the whole idea of disadvantaging someone who can't bend over because they have a back disease (for the record, As i do) All but the most adamant supporters of anchoring would cringe at that suggestion.

[StuartRS]

Guys, lets not get silly about this, discriminating against fat people etc.

The rule is suggesting a ban where the putter is swung around an anchored fulcrum.

There are a lot of tour players, regular and senior that this will effect and in some cases may lead to early retirement from the game due to yips or other issues, or just losing their cards, there is a chance that players like Bradley, Simpson, Clark, Scott, Els etc disappear from the game. Maybe the senior tour will suffer as a result?

The difference i see with the groove rule is that it affected every player on tour, this ruling will only affect some, where it has been allowed for 20 or so years.

I have mixed opinion on it, in some ways I think maybe it should be banned. But on the other hand you still need to read the line, start it on line and at the right pace and not hit a spike mark. Anchored putters do none of this for you.

[scotee]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354128456' post='5990541']
[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354128261' post='5990537']
[attachment=1434297:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.31 AM.png][attachment=1434301:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.03 AM.png]


Looks like discrimination against fat people. Can I file a suit for Americans with disabilities?
[/quote]

Why, does the rule effect your job?
[/quote] No and I don't use a long putter but when I have tried it there IS a bit of incidental forearm contact:) It seems like this might be an issue with guys with large upper bodies and an area of uncertainty.

[stimpmeterp]

[color=#333333][size=3]
[b]Michael Collins:[/b] On the Champions Tour, [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/261/bernhard-langer"]Bernhard Langer[/url] might be on suicide watch because he knows he'll never win again. On the PGA Tour, [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/1614/webb-simpson"]Webb Simpson[/url] will be applying to Wake Forrest's masters and doctorate programs. He'll be out of golf by 2020 (he's got exempt status almost until then).[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3]
[b]Farrell Evans:[/b] [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/4513/keegan-bradley"]Keegan Bradley[/url]. He is already a bit of a head case, a good guy, but a longtime anchorer who won't easily become successful using a new method.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3]
[b]Bob Harig:[/b] [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/81/tim-clark"]Tim Clark[/url]. He has spoken openly about how he believes this could be the end of his career. Clark has a physical condition with his wrists that makes conventional putting difficult. He's used a belly or long putter for most of his professional career. It would be a tough change, although perhaps he might find some relief under the Americans With Disabilities Act because he was born with the condition.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3]
[b]Kevin Maguire:[/b] [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/388/adam-scott"]Adam Scott[/url]. The Aussie struggled with his game on the greens before going to the belly putter and then seemed to resurrect his career. He nearly won the Open Championship in July until he was bested by another of the belly-putter brethren, [url="http://espn.go.com/golf/player/_/id/123/ernie-els"]Ernie Els[/url]. Scott has readily admitted the long wand gives him a confidence he didn't have with the shorter flatstick.[/size][/color]

[monkeynaut]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354130731' post='5990737']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130362' post='5990715']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

An injury is not the same as a birth defect. Are we going to make rules protecting players from the effects of all injuries, now?
[/quote]

And even if the case could be made they are similar enough, if for nothing more than the sake of this conversation, what could the argument possibly be? I had back surgery, therefore I need to anchor the putter? That is why the ruling is directed at how a stroke is made, and what makes a legal stroke. It ends the whole idea of disadvantaging someone who can't bend over because they have a back disease (for the record, As i do) All but the most adamant supporters of anchoring would cringe at that suggestion.
[/quote] "MY BAD BACK WON'T LET ME PUTT! But for some reason I can drive the ball 300 yards...."

[rustyputterguy]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130033' post='5990671']
The "proposed" language states the forearms can't be held against the body to create anchor points. Does this include the thighs? I recall seeing footage of Arnold Palmer using that "pop" stroke, and a lot of the time it looked like he had his forearms rooted against his thighs while putting with just his wrists.

The graphic in the OP shows some examples of forearms and elbows held against the body that are legal, but in order for them to be considered OK they would have be be part of an overall stroke that does not have an "anchor point" for the stroke created by that forearm rooting, by my reading.

I wonder if this ruling makes the stroke Palmer used illegal?
[/quote]

[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/Proposed-Changes-to-Rule-14-1/"]http://www.usga.org/rules/Proposed-Changes-to-Rule-14-1/[/url]
Click on the link prohibited strokes, I think there's a picture there showing that type of stroke.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1354131043' post='5990769']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130033' post='5990671']
The "proposed" language states the forearms can't be held against the body to create anchor points. Does this include the thighs? I recall seeing footage of Arnold Palmer using that "pop" stroke, and a lot of the time it looked like he had his forearms rooted against his thighs while putting with just his wrists.

[b]The [u]graphic in the OP[/u] shows some examples of forearms and elbows held against the body that are legal, but in order for them to be considered OK they would have be be part of an overall stroke that does not have an "anchor point" for the stroke created by that forearm rooting, by my reading.[/b]

I wonder if this ruling makes the stroke Palmer used illegal?
[/quote]

[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/Proposed-Changes-to-Rule-14-1/"]http://www.usga.org/...s-to-Rule-14-1/[/url]
Click on the link prohibited strokes, I think there's a picture there showing that type of stroke.
[/quote]


I referenced that picture in my post already. But thanks.

[mkc]

I don't see what the big deal is (for current long/belly users), I think they got it right. Long and belly putters are still 100% legal. So why is this so devastating for those users? Really, all they need to do is make a minor adjustment and take their top hand off their body (for most cases). Couple weeks solid practice and they got it down, boom, done. They're pros remember?!

[gators78]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354131556' post='5990815']
[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1354131043' post='5990769']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130033' post='5990671']
The "proposed" language states the forearms can't be held against the body to create anchor points. Does this include the thighs? I recall seeing footage of Arnold Palmer using that "pop" stroke, and a lot of the time it looked like he had his forearms rooted against his thighs while putting with just his wrists.

[b]The [u]graphic in the OP[/u] shows some examples of forearms and elbows held against the body that are legal, but in order for them to be considered OK they would have be be part of an overall stroke that does not have an "anchor point" for the stroke created by that forearm rooting, by my reading.[/b]

I wonder if this ruling makes the stroke Palmer used illegal?
[/quote]

[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/Proposed-Changes-to-Rule-14-1/"]http://www.usga.org/...s-to-Rule-14-1/[/url]
Click on the link prohibited strokes, I think there's a picture there showing that type of stroke.
[/quote]


I referenced that picture in my post already. But thanks.
[/quote]

I think that's correct, looks like Palmer and Billy Casper were 'cheating.'

[KYMAR]

[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354130790' post='5990743']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354128456' post='5990541']
[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354128261' post='5990537']
[attachment=1434297:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.31 AM.png][attachment=1434301:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.03 AM.png]


Looks like discrimination against fat people. Can I file a suit for Americans with disabilities?
[/quote]

Why, does the rule effect your job?
[/quote] No and I don't use a long putter but when I have tried it there IS a bit of incidental forearm contact:) It seems like this might be an issue with guys with large upper bodies and an area of uncertainty.
[/quote]

Read the rule. Incidental contact with a part of the players body is addressed. The rule is in place to prevent intentional anchoring of the club. There really isn't the ambiguity that some believe exists. Or want to exist. Not at all pointing that at you scotee, just in general. The rule is clear and the pro- anchoring crowd have determined to try and make clear water murky. Talk about a FAIL

[Dano golf]

[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354130790' post='5990743']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354128456' post='5990541']
[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1354128261' post='5990537']
[attachment=1434297:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.31 AM.png][attachment=1434301:Screen Shot 2012-11-28 at 8.56.03 AM.png]


Looks like discrimination against fat people. Can I file a suit for Americans with disabilities?
[/quote]

Why, does the rule effect your job?
[/quote] No and I don't use a long putter but when I have tried it there IS a bit of incidental forearm contact:) It seems like this might be an issue with guys with large upper bodies and an area of uncertainty.
[/quote]

Lose some weight then, Scotee.

[spitfisher]

[b]Ok, so here is some good news as a result of the ruling[/b], First I use a 43inch belly odyssey 2ball putter, I bought it out of curiousity at apawn shop for 19.00 and I put a winn belly grip on it. At 6' 4" I soon found out that I could putt much better, with a better roll by using it "kuchar" style read: non-anchored.

anyway the good news? well there should be plenty on low cost scotty camerons bellys on ebay shortly!

[Hoot151]

[quote name='monkeynaut' timestamp='1354130876' post='5990751']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354130731' post='5990737']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130362' post='5990715']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

An injury is not the same as a birth defect. Are we going to make rules protecting players from the effects of all injuries, now?
[/quote]

And even if the case could be made they are similar enough, if for nothing more than the sake of this conversation, what could the argument possibly be? I had back surgery, therefore I need to anchor the putter? That is why the ruling is directed at how a stroke is made, and what makes a legal stroke. It ends the whole idea of disadvantaging someone who can't bend over because they have a back disease (for the record, As i do) All but the most adamant supporters of anchoring would cringe at that suggestion.
[/quote] "MY BAD BACK WON'T LET ME PUTT! But for some reason I can drive the ball 300 yards...."
[/quote]

If you've never had back problems you should stfu. If you have, then you are just being a troll.

[CheckJV]

Still no evidence that anchored putting provides any kind of statistically significant advantage. They propose to make the technique illegal because the ruling bodies of golf "do not like it."

What would happen if the USGA or R&A decided that they "did not like" people of color playing golf, or really tall people, or really short people, or golf balls with red numbers?

This is just crazy!

And for the record, I do not use an anchored putting technique.

[monkeynaut]

[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1354131834' post='5990851']
[quote name='monkeynaut' timestamp='1354130876' post='5990751']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354130731' post='5990737']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1354130362' post='5990715']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354130226' post='5990703']
i can see it now .. guys with back surgeries etc suing to go long putter due to a proven serious medical condition ... Casey Martin ruling pops into my mind
[/quote]

An injury is not the same as a birth defect. Are we going to make rules protecting players from the effects of all injuries, now?
[/quote]

And even if the case could be made they are similar enough, if for nothing more than the sake of this conversation, what could the argument possibly be? I had back surgery, therefore I need to anchor the putter? That is why the ruling is directed at how a stroke is made, and what makes a legal stroke. It ends the whole idea of disadvantaging someone who can't bend over because they have a back disease (for the record, As i do) All but the most adamant supporters of anchoring would cringe at that suggestion.
[/quote] "MY BAD BACK WON'T LET ME PUTT! But for some reason I can drive the ball 300 yards...."
[/quote]

If you've never had back problems you should stfu. If you have, then you are just being a troll.
[/quote] I have had plenty of back problems. So I should SPEAK THE FU.
It wasn't the putting that killed me. It was the driver and the full swing.
If my back hurts so much I can't putt, I stay home b/c if I can't roll a ball a few feet there's no way I'm hitting it 250, 200, 150,100, 50, 30, 20, even ten yards.