Phoenix area course conditions 2013

[Brocktoon]

Just got back from my somewhat annual golf trip to Phoenix. I really appreciate all of the course reviews and opinions in this forum so I thought I would take a few minutes to contribute something myself. I figure it's time to start a new course conditions thread seeing as we are well into 2013 now.

 

Link to 2011 Course Conditions thread

http://www.golfwrx.c...rse-conditions/

 

Link to 2012 Course Conditions thread

http://www.golfwrx.c...onditions-2012/

 

Our first tee time was at Boulders South. Was in fantastic shape from tee to green. This was the only course where I noticed the green speeds posted which were running at 11. These were the fastest greens we played on the trip, but still receptive to shots as we found all the greens to be thoughout the trip. The layout itself is above average but it's really the scenery of the boulder piles that makes for a memorable round. The rough was mowed to the perfect height and it seemed like the ball was always sitting up perfectly making chipping easier that what I'm used to. The one negative was that our round took 5 hours to complete. We play very fast and were right behind the group in front of us all week. There's also a 1 to 2 minute drive between most of the holes that would make it difficult to play this course quickly.

 

 

Our 2nd round was the next morning at Lookout Mountain. Overall the course was in great shape, not quite up to the level of Boulders but about what I expected from a mid-tier course. Some of the holes on the back get a little tight but I knew that going in and didn't feel like there was anything unfair about any of the holes. I lost a few balls but they were all the result of a bad swing. This was an enjoyable course to play with a good variety of holes. The starter was reminding everyone in the practice area to play ready golf and keep moving which seemed to help the pace of play. We actually finished the round in just over 4 hours which was good because we had an afternoon tee time at Phoenician.

 

 

 

We decided on the Phoenician to give ourselves a break from desert golf for 1 of our 4 rounds. Played the Oasis and Canyon nines. The round started out extremely slow but they had a ranger going around trying to speed up play and actually moved a set of tees up about 20 yards just before we hit in an effort to make some of the bottleneck holes easier. The Canyon nine was much more interesting although I think we drove a mile to get to the first hole. Course was in very good shape, similar to the conditions we played in the morning at Lookout. In the end we finished up in about 4 1/2 hours with the sun setting as we finished. A few of the holes run parallel to busy streets so it is not quite the serene feeling you get from an out of the way desert course.

 

 

 

Our final round before heading to the airport was at Eagle Mountain. Definitely one of the most unique courses I have ever played. There were surprisingly quite a few brown and bare patches in both the fairway and the rough. Did not expect to see that on a course with the reputation they seem to have. Aside from that the fairways and greens were in pretty good shape. My ball never found any of the bare patches so they were probably more of a visual annoyance. I have read about the mounding that redirects stray shots back into the fairway but you really have to experience it to believe it. One of our tee shots that was way right rolled down a steep incline to the left side of the fairway. If it would have been 3 yards further right it would have kicked into the desert. It's almost overly fair if there is such a thing. Also your calves will get a good workout walking from every green back up to your cart. Still it was an interesting test and offered some great views into the valley. We finished in about 4 1/2 hours.

 

 

 

I would play all of these courses again without hesitation. We usually try to pick different courses to play every trip so it might be awhile before I make it back though.

[lwa2424]

Glad to see this 2013 thread started...appreciate it! I'm actually headed to Phoenix the first weekend in May for an annual golf trip and would love to get some updates. We're playing the following courses:

Eagle Mountain: never played this one before, so I'm glad to hear that it's in decent shape.
Gold Canyon: played here a few years ago....really enjoyed it. The driving range leaves a lot to be desired, but I can live with that.
Whirlwind: Also played here a few years ago. Don't really remember much about it, but also don't remember having any issues.
Ocotillo: played here a few times in recent years. It's fairly enjoyable.

Would love to hear any updates on conditions, etc. And if anyone can bring down these temperatures I'm seeing, that would be great too!

[AzSuperHack76]

Westbrook Village Lakes Course is in really good shape right now. Not sure if a lot of people get out to the Westbrook courses but it's in my back yard so I frequent them time to time when the rates come down, 30 for twilight right now, would never pay the full rate for either of the courses. I put in 27 holes in 3.25 hrs, awesome pace, the snowbrids are heading home.

Not very long or exotic by any stretch of the imagination but the course is always in excellent shape. Fairways are really lush right now and the greens are in really, really good shape rolling true. Big complaint are the bunkers look like a mix of kitty litter and sand and being very shallow, have been this way as long as I have played there. A lot of the old guys just putt out of them.

I Heard they recently got the greens keeper from Palmbrook CC, which if any of you have been there know that they have had some of the best greens on the west side of town, rest of the course is a typical bland Sun CIty course but the greens were always amazing, shocked actually the first time I played there.

[dale4ace]

Headed there tonight after work! so excited

will be playing Talking Stick North/South; Eagle Mountain; Raven @ verrado; Raven @ Phx; and Sunridge Canyon

if time permits may play one or two more

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Wekopa Saguaro is absolutely pure right now

[AzSuperHack76]

500 club in pretty good shape right now. Only complaint is the lack of sand in some of the bunkers.

[jamesons]

Eagle Mtn report --

Weather was hot ~100*. Coming from NJ and not having spent any time in heat in many months I was concerned, but we never felt uncomfortably hot. True desert heat with low humidity. And no excuses!

I played Eagle Mtn yesterday and as a follow up to a recent post I confirm there are lots of browned/burned spots on all holes. It was strange and unexpected for AZ. In my opinion they were more unsightly and less a functional problem. All 4 players were in an area where we rolled the ball slightly maybe 1-2 times each. There was also quite a few areas of maintenance with sod, etc.

The greens were not a problem. VERY firm and reasonably fast (~10.0). They were not burned and full. Overall I rate the greens B/B-. Challenging to hold and almost no ball marks.

Sorry no pics.

Off to WeKoPa Cholla today......

[KPH808]

Just got back from Scottsdale/Phoenix yesterday and got a chance to play both Wekopa courses and TPC Stadium.

Wekopa - I personally liked the Cholla course much more, both are target golf type of courses and greens are slower than they look. Overall pretty good condition. Make sure you bring a set that you wouldn't mind dinging up a little.

TPC Stadium - in very good shape, fun course and I like this course much more than the Wekopa courses. Everything from the tees to green was in great shape.

[jamesons]

WeKoPa report --

A long day on the Cholla course. Two large groups went off in front of us. One was 16 players and the other 20. Slightly over 5hr round. Overall, more above average conditions from WeKoPa. Remains my fav public play in Phoenix/Scottsdale area. There were no burned out spots like Eagle Mtn. Greens were full and rolling nicely. Not fast but rolled nicely. We are playing Saguaro Friday which I like a little more. WeKoPa impressed us again. Still a must play IMO.

Off to SunRidge Canyon tomorrow....

[jamesons]

Sunridge Canyon report --

It was ~100* again today but there was a nice breeze that turned into a strong wind for the final 6-8 holes so it felt a lot cooler. All 18 required you to pay attention to the wind, but the final stretch was especially tough. Add in the uphill finishing holes and it was hard. The course was in average shape. The fairways and rough were both pretty scraggly. The greens were better and faster than both Eagle Mtn and WeKoPa Cholla. They were true but overall just not as good as WeKoPa. They were a little less full but the speed bumped up my rating to a B-/C+. With average speed they would've been a C or C+ at best. I had not played this course in about 10 years so the layout was less familiar to me than the other main stream courses you read about on GolfWRX. Not a huge fan of the layout. At face value the 6,800 yards from the back tees (black, which is what I played) sounded short for the Phoenix altitude and it was. Besides some long par 3's the course is short. I played long irons and fairway 4w off several tees and it was plenty. The one thing that really shocked me was how fast it played. I don't remember any courses in Phoenix (area) or Tucson having the roll Sunridge did. I am not an overly long player and hit a 241 4i to one of the par 5's on the front side (think hole 3 or 4). It was a little blind so I didn't see it actually bounce and roll but it did. My stock 4i back east is no more than 205 so seeing it pin high green side was shocking. All 4 players had shots that rolled a mile. This was the most surprising besides how short it played from the back tees. Overall it is a good golf course, but not great. Looking back it just doesn't stand out in my mind as a WOW course that I am craving to play again. The range was weak. Service was not a problem and good.

Off to Troon Pinnacle tomorrow......

[YMark]

I played Wildfire Palmer on Friday. Course in great condition. Only complaint is they had a new pin cutter and he put some pins on some slopes that were just unfair. Marshal said he had been hearing complaints all day.

I even met a new desert friend.

[attachment=1661199:72865_10200870705345462_218138632_n.jpg]

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Temperature has the most to do distance gains, I lose about a 1-2 club lengths in winter when temps get below 70* as soon as it starts staying above 80* consistently I have to re adjust my yardages. My 65* yardages in AZ = my yardage at sea level in CA on a 70* day

Enjoy Saguaro tomorrow, I have played it a ton this year and finally starting to figure out the best ways to play some of the holes. It was the last course here that I could not break 80 on for some reason even when I was healthy now my last 4 rounds out there 79,78,76,73

[duffer987]

^Interesting, so when I'm playing an 160yd approach shot at We-Ko-Pa on Friday, I shouldn't be using the 7I I would playing in the Bay Area when it's 70 odd degrees out? I meant to do a search here on Weds night before going to Phoenix to see about elevation/heat, but as you've mentioned it

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Yeah you will want to take advantage of the range out there to double check your distances, plenty of target greens with well marked distances. Most likely be using the 8 iron in that case. On Saguaro many holes long is not bad, Just do not go long on 2, 4, 6, 10,

[duffer987]

^Ya airport pickups on schedule, we should be able to get there a good 90mins early. Will definitely have to go through the bag and see how they are flying. I will be sure to update this thread over the weekend with conditions there and talking stick. Thanks again for the info.

[AzSuperHack76]

Copper Canyon today. Course is in good shape. Shots in the fairways are rolling forever. Greens are fast and true, also holding shots very well this morning. Got though in at 3 1/2 hours today, great pace. The marshall was absolutely one of the most pleasant marshals I have had the chance to visit with on any course in a long time. Customer service goes a long way in my book, from the bag drop to the end of the round it was top notch as usual. Really enjoy Copper Canyon, word of advice is to get out there early before the winds hit as it gets brutal on the north side of the White Tanks when the wind starts to blow.

[jamesons]

Troon North Pinnacle report --

The real deal. The conditions from tee to green were as expected from a top ranked facility! The fairways were full and green. The greens were slightly top dressed but they rolled nicely and had good speed. The pace of play was good which is something I have complained about in the past. I've not always been a huge fan of Troon and thought its reputation turned it into a golf factory and the overall experience did not match the price. This is the second year in the row we've played it after about 5 year break and although last year the pace of play was SLOW this year was not. I hope this is the norm and not the exception. The course layout is HARD regardless what tees you play and is one of the best tests in the area IMO. I didn't have my best game but it was a good day. Saw a rattler on 2nd tee box and a bobcat crossing the 17th cart path. Full dose of AZ today.

Off to Grayhawk Raptor tomorrow.....

[jamesons]

Grayhawk Raptor report --

Wow, golf is hard enough but add what felt like a minor hurricane and it gets harder. Play 7,200 yards from the back tees and you set yourself up for loooonnnggg day!!! The course was in very good shape. Very minor browning in some areas but nothing to worry about. The greens were full and rolling....I mean rolllliiinnnggg. Fastest greens we've played this week. Some down hill putts were barely manageable. The winds were strong and from all directions and gusting. It made it a tough round of golf. Add a driver that was not cooperating and it makes it even harder. The pace was manageable but not too fast and not too slow. The service was above average as always (at least our experiences). From the moment you walk in to the moment you walk out its all about service. The range was way below average and really weak. I can't think about much more than that to really criticize. It's in very good shape and ready to reward you for good shots and penalize you for bad shots.

Off to WeKoPa Saguaro tomorrow....last round of the trip

[jamesons]

WeKoPa Saguaro report --

We finished our trip yesterday with round 6 of 6. I purposely scheduled the Saguaro course for the last round and it lived up to our expectations. What a golf course. My favorite in the area (public play). The service and facilities are typical WeKoPa and well above average. The range, practice green and short game area were all in very good condition. I really really enjoy the Saguaro course. The layout, conditions, flow from hole to hole, views are special IMO. I played it back like the other 5 courses and it rewards you for good shots and penalizes you for bad shots. A couple of semi blind tee shots that are not my favorite. I have played the course 3-4 times and know most of the target lines. I did have 2-3 tee shots that I thought were better than they really were. Not enough to be a problem, but I can understand why some might say the semi blind shots are a little annoying for the first timers. There is a very good mix of holes -- long and shot -- straight and dog legged. The greens were comparable to the Cholla course which we played earlier in the week. They were full, true and the speed was above average. Not as fast as the Raptor course at Grayhawk, but a nice speed. The fairways were all full and green with no brown spots which other area courses showed. The pace of play was good but not perfect. It moved nicely then slowed then moved again. A little inconsistent but I don't always blame the course as they give all guests the same opportunity since we all pay the same money. My group chose the Saguaro course as our favorite for the week.

That was our final round of the week .........until next year......

[duffer987]

Locals can better interpret current conditions vs expectations for this time of the year than I can, but with that caveat I will throw in the following:

- WeKoPa Saguaro (May 3rd)
Incredible fairways, green green grass, evenly cut, and super thick, Ron Swanson hair thick. Did not have a bad lie the whole day on approach shots to the green. Tee boxes level, with the right amount of grass. The one bad thing on Saguaro is the bunkers. They have pretty much no sand. It is mainly dirt and not much of that either. Luckily I only found one bunker (on 15), but two of our foursome were in them a lot and there were lots of thud/whack sounds, as clubs went into the earth where sand should be. Really no excuse for a course of that quality to not have at least ok-ish bunkers. Yes there's a workaround - don't use a club with a lot or bounce or avoid them in the first place - but still poor show.

That notwithstanding just let me say, Saguaro is fecking awesome. I've only played a dozen desert courses and another 1/2 dozen desert-ish, but in my limited experience, Saguaro is top of the list. Being a Coore/Crenshaw fan probably biases me, but it was a truly wonderful golf experience. Traditionalists put off by some of the amusement parkesque, contrived offerings in the desert; here is your oasis

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='jamesons' timestamp='1367723380' post='6972310']
WeKoPa Saguaro report --
... A couple of semi blind tee shots that are not my favorite...
... I can understand why some might say the semi blind shots are a little annoying for the first timers...
[/quote]

I never understood the negative sentiment toward courses that have elements that may fool the first time player. It is my thought that the better courses don't reveal themselves on the first play, in fact, on the best courses one can learn something new each time they play it. The tourist style courses where everything is "all there in front of you" are fine for the hit and run, but become less interesting on subsequent plays.

In any case Jamesons, I did enjoy reading the reviews of your Arizona visit. I know this thread is focused on conditioning, but I wonder if you could take a moment to rank the courses you played as related to COURSE DESIGN? In other words, disregarding green speeds, brown spots, bunker sand or lack of it, amenities and service, which courses had the better golf design in terms of the routing and sequencing; variety, playability and memorability of the holes and shots needed; the way the course fits into the natural surroundings and the use of the features of the site, etc...

FWIW, I agree with One_Putt_Blunder and Duffer987, the Saguaro is a course I can play again and again. It is a test and yet it is FUN TO PLAY. The type of course where you want to head back to the first tee after putting out on 18.

Thanks!!

[puttnforthe8]

Legacy is is great shape.

Quintero is in fantastic shape with very firm and fast greens. Tough to hold a few of the greens. Only bad hole was #1, where apparently someone decided that they were going to do wheelies on the green. The staff have done a good job getting it back playable, but not perfect.

[jamesons]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1367858845' post='6979834']
[quote name='jamesons' timestamp='1367723380' post='6972310']
WeKoPa Saguaro report --
... A couple of semi blind tee shots that are not my favorite...
... I can understand why some might say the semi blind shots are a little annoying for the first timers...
[/quote]

I never understood the negative sentiment toward courses that have elements that may fool the first time player. It is my thought that the better courses don't reveal themselves on the first play, in fact, on the best courses one can learn something new each time they play it. The tourist style courses where everything is "all there in front of you" are fine for the hit and run, but become less interesting on subsequent plays.

In any case Jamesons, I did enjoy reading the reviews of your Arizona visit. I know this thread is focused on conditioning, but I wonder if you could take a moment to rank the courses you played as related to COURSE DESIGN? In other words, disregarding green speeds, brown spots, bunker sand or lack of it, amenities and service, which courses had the better golf design in terms of the routing and sequencing; variety, playability and memorability of the holes and shots needed; the way the course fits into the natural surroundings and the use of the features of the site, etc...

FWIW, I agree with One_Putt_Blunder and Duffer987, the Saguaro is a course I can play again and again. It is a test and yet it is FUN TO PLAY. The type of course where you want to head back to the first tee after putting out on 18.

Thanks!!
[/quote]

Good question. And none of my following comments should be interpreted as the course is bad and people shouldn't play it. Yes, some facilities I prefer more than others but the reality is the courses that are regularly mentioned here are all great public play courses.

Eagle Mtn - much more of what you mentioned where the course is in front of you. No doubt where to hit it and what you see is what you get. Typically plays soft with little roll. I'm a 3 handicap but I will never pretend to give my opinion as if I will dominate or overpower a course. Overall I think this is an easier course. Lots of banked fairways where errant shots are saved and end up in the fairway whereas at Grayhawk or Troon or WeKoPa you'd be in the desert. I schedule this as a round 1 course since we don't play year round and we need a less demanding course before battling a demanding course like Troon. A lot of elevation change too. Large greens.

SunRidge Canyon - this year was the first time playing here in 10+ years. Last memory was unfavorable but I wasn't sure if it was the course layout or how I played it and wanted to give it another chance. It's downhill on the front side and uphill on the back side. The overall altitude from the lowest to the highest is significant. The course is very short from the back tees and I hit 3i or 4w off majority of the tees. It's just not fun IMO. I have no problem having variety in 18 holes but its just short, short, short. I played it better but confirmed the layout is not my favorite. The uphill then uphill then uphill then more uphill is too much for me. It's just not interesting IMO.

Grayhawk Raptor - again, first time in many years. Really didn't remember most of the course. It's tighter than most courses. It is one of the longest from the back tees. It played fast with loads of roll. The tee shots are tricky on many of the holes making tee shots very demanding. It was in good shape and was just a good test of golf. Requires lots of different shots, use lots of clubs, keeps your attention...but rewards you for good shots. I'm a huge believer of being rewarded for good shots and penalized for bad shots. You won't get lucky too often here!

WeKoPa Cholla - I have always loved this place. I've been playing it annually forever (since it opened). The place just gets me amped up and focused. I've also played it quite well over the years so good memories. Cholla was one of my favorite courses until last year when I played he Saguaro course for 2nd time. The Saguaro is better. Cholla is a very fair layout. Some holes are tight, some are wide (most are on the wide side), some tricky tee shots, some easy tee shots, use lots of different clubs, elevation change but not too much. It's just fun to play, but I admit I've lowered my overall rating in the past 2-3 years. It's still well above average but the Saguaro course gets more love from me now. The Cholla is a fair layout IMO and can play easy or hard depending on wind. The par 3's are not terribly long. The par 4's are a good mix. Par 5's are easy 3 shot holes.

WeKoPa Saguaro - top 2 in the area IMO. I like it more than Troon. I'd play it before Troon. But, Troon is a better desert golf course with much more demanding holes requiring more good shots. I really like how the Saguaro course flows. Plenty of variety for me - short holes, long holes, enough elevation change, tight holes and wide holes, driver and 3i off tees. It's just a fun golf course to play IMO. It's not terribly hard with some very generous fairway width. It has its hard holes too but plenty of short/wide/easier holes where you can go after birdie or make an easy par. The layout is unique likely because they wanted it to be a walking course. There is not a ton of demanding shots especially to the greens where you have to carry desert like at Troon. Probably my biggest complaint....but it makes it more playable for all playing abilities. Great views. No houses. Always in great condition.

Troon Pinnacle - just the real deal. Absolutely demanding. Requires more great shots than any other course (public play in the area) IMO. Great variety. Great views. Tight holes and wide holes. More elevation change than other courses but not too much IMO. It just gives you a desert course that's in front of you and the rest is up to you. It doesn't try to trick the player. The layout trusts itself and knows the player will hit enough average shots that it will win. I love that. It doesn't force double bogey by using gimmicks or tricky blind shots. I don't love the housing throughout the course(s). I understand it but don't love it. That's where Saguaro wins over Troon. When you think of desert golf you envision islands of green grass that requires you to hit from one to the other....that's exactly what Troon delivers.

1. Troon
2. WeKoPa Saguaro
3. Grayhawk Raptor
4. WeKoPa Cholla
5. Sunridge Canyon
6. Eagle Mtn

Very hard to rank 4 and 5 and could easily reverse them. There is a very large gap between 4 and 5/6. Courses 1-4 are all very good and Saguaro and Troon could easily be 1a and 1b. Don't forget these are only the 6 courses we played ths year. There are PLENTY of other courses that are terrific. Such as Raven at Verrado which I really like. That layout is one of my favorites. Legend Trail. GC of Estrella. Vista Verde. Quintero. Wildfire. Boulders. Las Sendas....something for everyone!

JS

[teejaywhy]

Jamesons - thanks for taking the time to add some thoughts on the courses.

I am a big fan of the Saguaro course - I see it as a bit of a shift back to a more traditional style of golf, challenging for better golfers but still fun to play for the less skilled. I have always liked the Raptor at Grayhawk. Nice to see that it was playing firm for your visit, the last few times I've been out there the place was a bog. Troon N. and Cholla are two courses that I find just a bit too demanding for me to really enjoy. You can be just a little bit off and lose a lot of balls.

What interests me the most was your comments about SunRidge Canyon. I played it about three times when it first opened (mid 90's) and remember really liking it. My "tastes" have matured over the years as I've played more different courses so I've really been wanting to get out there again to see if my opinion has changed. The obvious flaw as you pointed out, is the routing - down the canyon then back up. But really interesting is the comment about having to use irons or fairway woods off the tee on most holes. The course is not that old but does predate the ProV1, so I wonder if this is just a sad result of the unfortunate lack of equipment oversight by the ruling bodies that is rapidly obsoleting so many courses? Kind of troubling when 6900 yards can be considered "really short."

[jamesons]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1368280604' post='7011484']
Jamesons - thanks for taking the time to add some thoughts on the courses.

I am a big fan of the Saguaro course - I see it as a bit of a shift back to a more traditional style of golf, challenging for better golfers but still fun to play for the less skilled. I have always liked the Raptor at Grayhawk. Nice to see that it was playing firm for your visit, the last few times I've been out there the place was a bog. Troon N. and Cholla are two courses that I find just a bit too demanding for me to really enjoy. You can be just a little bit off and lose a lot of balls.

What interests me the most was your comments about SunRidge Canyon. I played it about three times when it first opened (mid 90's) and remember really liking it. My "tastes" have matured over the years as I've played more different courses so I've really been wanting to get out there again to see if my opinion has changed. The obvious flaw as you pointed out, is the routing - down the canyon then back up. But really interesting is the comment about having to use irons or fairway woods off the tee on most holes. The course is not that old but does predate the ProV1, so I wonder if this is just a sad result of the unfortunate lack of equipment oversight by the ruling bodies that is rapidly obsoleting so many courses? Kind of troubling when 6900 yards can be considered "really short."
[/quote]

That's a good question and I don't think so. Only 2-3 holes would truly play more challenging in the "old game" IMO. The rest would not likely play much differently from a club selection standpoint. SunRidge is not an easy course, but it is not terribly exciting being so short.

[jamesons]

[quote name='jamesons' timestamp='1368144304' post='7002512']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1367858845' post='6979834']
[quote name='jamesons' timestamp='1367723380' post='6972310']
WeKoPa Saguaro report --
... A couple of semi blind tee shots that are not my favorite...
... I can understand why some might say the semi blind shots are a little annoying for the first timers...
[/quote]

I never understood the negative sentiment toward courses that have elements that may fool the first time player. It is my thought that the better courses don't reveal themselves on the first play, in fact, on the best courses one can learn something new each time they play it. The tourist style courses where everything is "all there in front of you" are fine for the hit and run, but become less interesting on subsequent plays.

In any case Jamesons, I did enjoy reading the reviews of your Arizona visit. I know this thread is focused on conditioning, but I wonder if you could take a moment to rank the courses you played as related to COURSE DESIGN? In other words, disregarding green speeds, brown spots, bunker sand or lack of it, amenities and service, which courses had the better golf design in terms of the routing and sequencing; variety, playability and memorability of the holes and shots needed; the way the course fits into the natural surroundings and the use of the features of the site, etc...

FWIW, I agree with One_Putt_Blunder and Duffer987, the Saguaro is a course I can play again and again. It is a test and yet it is FUN TO PLAY. The type of course where you want to head back to the first tee after putting out on 18.

Thanks!!
[/quote]

Good question. And none of my following comments should be interpreted as the course is bad and people shouldn't play it. Yes, some facilities I prefer more than others but the reality is the courses that are regularly mentioned here are all great public play courses.

Eagle Mtn - much more of what you mentioned where the course is in front of you. No doubt where to hit it and what you see is what you get. Typically plays soft with little roll. I'm a 3 handicap but I will never pretend to give my opinion as if I will dominate or overpower a course. Overall I think this is an easier course. Lots of banked fairways where errant shots are saved and end up in the fairway whereas at Grayhawk or Troon or WeKoPa you'd be in the desert. I schedule this as a round 1 course since we don't play year round and we need a less demanding course before battling a demanding course like Troon. A lot of elevation change too. Large greens.

SunRidge Canyon - this year was the first time playing here in 10+ years. Last memory was unfavorable but I wasn't sure if it was the course layout or how I played it and wanted to give it another chance. It's downhill on the front side and uphill on the back side. The overall altitude from the lowest to the highest is significant. The course is very short from the back tees and I hit 3i or 4w off majority of the tees. It's just not fun IMO. I have no problem having variety in 18 holes but its just short, short, short. I played it better but confirmed the layout is not my favorite. The uphill then uphill then uphill then more uphill is too much for me. It's just not interesting IMO.

Grayhawk Raptor - again, first time in many years. Really didn't remember most of the course. It's tighter than most courses. It is one of the longest from the back tees. It played fast with loads of roll. The tee shots are tricky on many of the holes making tee shots very demanding. It was in good shape and was just a good test of golf. Requires lots of different shots, use lots of clubs, keeps your attention...but rewards you for good shots. I'm a huge believer of being rewarded for good shots and penalized for bad shots. You won't get lucky too often here!

WeKoPa Cholla - I have always loved this place. I've been playing it annually forever (since it opened). The place just gets me amped up and focused. I've also played it quite well over the years so good memories. Cholla was one of my favorite courses until last year when I played he Saguaro course for 2nd time. The Saguaro is better. Cholla is a very fair layout. Some holes are tight, some are wide (most are on the wide side), some tricky tee shots, some easy tee shots, use lots of different clubs, elevation change but not too much. It's just fun to play, but I admit I've lowered my overall rating in the past 2-3 years. It's still well above average but the Saguaro course gets more love from me now. The Cholla is a fair layout IMO and can play easy or hard depending on wind. The par 3's are not terribly long. The par 4's are a good mix. Par 5's are easy 3 shot holes.

WeKoPa Saguaro - top 2 in the area IMO. I like it more than Troon. I'd play it before Troon. But, Troon is a better desert golf course with much more demanding holes requiring more good shots. I really like how the Saguaro course flows. Plenty of variety for me - short holes, long holes, enough elevation change, tight holes and wide holes, driver and 3i off tees. It's just a fun golf course to play IMO. It's not terribly hard with some very generous fairway width. It has its hard holes too but plenty of short/wide/easier holes where you can go after birdie or make an easy par. The layout is unique likely because they wanted it to be a walking course. There is not a ton of demanding shots especially to the greens where you have to carry desert like at Troon. Probably my biggest complaint....but it makes it more playable for all playing abilities. Great views. No houses. Always in great condition.

Troon Pinnacle - just the real deal. Absolutely demanding. Requires more great shots than any other course (public play in the area) IMO. Great variety. Great views. Tight holes and wide holes. More elevation change than other courses but not too much IMO. It just gives you a desert course that's in front of you and the rest is up to you. It doesn't try to trick the player. The layout trusts itself and knows the player will hit enough average shots that it will win. I love that. It doesn't force double bogey by using gimmicks or tricky blind shots. I don't love the housing throughout the course(s). I understand it but don't love it. That's where Saguaro wins over Troon. When you think of desert golf you envision islands of green grass that requires you to hit from one to the other....that's exactly what Troon delivers.

1. Troon
2. WeKoPa Saguaro
3. Grayhawk Raptor
4. WeKoPa Cholla
5. Sunridge Canyon
6. Eagle Mtn

Very hard to rank 4 and 5 and could easily reverse them. There is a very large gap between 4 and 5/6. Courses 1-4 are all very good and Saguaro and Troon could easily be 1a and 1b. Don't forget these are only the 6 courses we played ths year. There are PLENTY of other courses that are terrific. Such as Raven at Verrado which I really like. That layout is one of my favorites. Legend Trail. GC of Estrella. Vista Verde. Quintero. Wildfire. Boulders. Las Sendas....something for everyone!

JS
[/quote]

What I meant to say is it was harder to rank #5 and #6 (not 4 and 5). And there is a gap between #1-4 and #'s 5 and 6. Sorry. Typo.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Played Ocotillo Blue/White yesterday was in ok shape greens were pretty grainy and bunkers were thin at the bottoms appears as they have rake all the sand into the walls of the bunkers for some reason. Got a smoking deal through golf now to play it so figured I would give it a chance, really don't think I would go back just not my cup of tee when it comes to course design and layout. I had never played it and had never really recomended it either but felt I should at least play it once to see if I was missing out on something.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='One_Putt_Blunder' timestamp='1368726168' post='7048122']
Ocotillo... felt I should at least play it once to see if I was missing out on something.
[/quote]

Water ball count?

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1368737395' post='7049394']
[quote name='One_Putt_Blunder' timestamp='1368726168' post='7048122']
Ocotillo... felt I should at least play it once to see if I was missing out on something.
[/quote]

Water ball count?
[/quote]

2, one intentional after a 3 putt, and one nasty hooked 3 wood

[double or triple?]

Need some course advice. It's looking like I'll be out in Phoenix June 15-18 staying at a buddy's house. We are playing Dodson ranch on the 15th when I get there but we plan on playing on Monday the 17th all day and one final round on 18th. First is anyone else available to join us on those days? Second what are feelings about the $35 all day play at TPC champions course? We're thinking of doing that Monday or maybe Southern Dunes or Raven.