Wilson 8802 Putter questions

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1389633692' post='8452503']
A few months ago one sold for 2900, so your 2500 is pretty close
[/quote]

He's got a Buy it now for $3,999.99 after being at $5,999.99 last...what is he still thinking???

[xgolfx]

[attachment=2043941:8802 article.jpg]This article may clear up some of the misconceptions it was written in 1996 CHARLEY PENNA

[Medson]

Reattach the image so that it does not appear sideways.

[Kathy Marie]

Charley & Medson,

Thank you for a great article, I really enjoyed it.

KM

[super20dan]

ihave the odessey 8802 but not the ironmaster version. the 8802 version is a bit larger and longer than the original and the sweet spot is too far toward the heel

[xgolfx]

For what it's worth, my opinion is that women are much more difficult to fit for equipment than males. Manufacturers pigeon hole female choices . Whippy, pale colors, and short length clubs have been the norm. My wife, who has won many events and more than a dozen club championships never has been able to use women's clubs. She uses senior men's for the most part. Swing speed determines flex point. For women, it is more crucial because their slower speed makes flex vital. My best example is bunker play. In my opinion , women should not use a sand iron for a bunker shot of more than ten yards. ( a sand iron I assume has bounce and loft of 56 and 12). The sand will slow the club and usually opens the blade for anyone.

The only way to fit is trial and error. That includes the ball . Anyone who gets fitted with range balls is making a mistake (unless that is what you play with)
The correct process is to try the clubs on the golf course , with the ball you normally use. Otherwise, it is akin to buying a thousand dollar suit by mail with no return policy

CHARLEY PENNA

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='Medson' timestamp='1391034156' post='8560412']
Reattach the image so that it does not appear sideways.
[/quote]

Thanks! I couldn't handle much more of holding my neck at a 90 degree angle to the right without pulling a muscle! I tried turning the computer on 90 degree angle counter clockwise but it didn't work out when I was trying to read my work emails!

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1391180278' post='8571122']
For what it's worth, my opinion is that women are much more difficult to fit for equipment than males. Manufacturers pigeon hole female choices . Whippy, pale colors, and short length clubs have been the norm. My wife, who has won many events and more than a dozen club championships never has been able to use women's clubs. She uses senior men's for the most part. Swing speed determines flex point. For women, it is more crucial because their slower speed makes flex vital. My best example is bunker play. In my opinion , women should not use a sand iron for a bunker shot of more than ten yards. ( a sand iron I assume has bounce and loft of 56 and 12). The sand will slow the club and usually opens the blade for anyone.

The only way to fit is trial and error. That includes the ball . Anyone who gets fitted with range balls is making a mistake (unless that is what you play with)
The correct process is to try the clubs on the golf course , with the ball you normally use. Otherwise, it is akin to buying a thousand dollar suit by mail with no return policy

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Thank you for your input, Mr. Penna! I was actually talking with a PGA pro about getting fitted recently (because I think I'd improve with a real fitting.) When I asked him about fitting outside, he said (roughly), "I used to do that. But here I can use this $9,000 set up and get a lot of information that I can't get outside. And plus, I can fit you next week."

I truly didn't know what to say to that.

But I DO agree with you that manufacturers don't do much for women. Reading the Golfwork's Club Identification Guide opened my eyes to the fact that women's clubs are basically men's with the colors changed to protect the innocent. I don't know about all the particulars of golf shafts either, except that are four men's flexes and one women's, and they don't give you any actual data that would allow you to compare.

About fitting for a particular ball, I haven't settled on one ball yet. It seems to me manufacturers change balls frequently; many times I've had wonderful recommendations only to find out they are no longer produced. For a Truly (Stunningly!) Average Golfer, would being fit for a particular ball make that much difference? I plan on keeping my fitted clubs a long time, the ball used will most likely go out of production.

Unless once you're fitted, you can use the information to buy any clubs you like as long as they are altered to match your fitting?

Also, if I'm fitted by trial and error, is it [b]my[/b] trial and error? Or the fitting pro's? I'm not quite grasping your meaning there.

Thanks so much,

Kathy Marie

[super20dan]

if you go for a fitting -they are expecting to sell you a whole new set of clubs

[xgolfx]

Try to find a player of your level who has a new ,or recent, set you could hit. Go to demo days for your own trial and error. Look up on manufacturer's websites for dates in your area. Look in used barrels and buy a 5 iron that appeals to you. Do not buy unless you can try the clubs ON THE GOLF COURSE. BUY A SLEEVE OF 4 different balls and try them on the course after warming up with your clubs. Find a par 3 and it a shot with each of the 4. balls. Use your favorite putter with the balls. Do Not change a wedge if you get results with it. I have a wedge that came from the Mizuno tour trailer 8 years ago and a Penna wedge that is over half a century old in my bag. Do not make the mistake of getting rid of your last wedges . Buy a set of irons 56789. Try hybrids to fill in.

CHARLEY PENNA

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1391315632' post='8581882']


Thank you for your input, Mr. Penna! I was actually talking with a PGA pro about getting fitted recently (because I think I'd improve with a real fitting.) When I asked him about fitting outside, he said (roughly), "I used to do that. But here I can use this $9,000 set up and get a lot of information that I can't get outside. And plus, I can fit you next week."

I truly didn't know what to say to that.

But I DO agree with you that manufacturers don't do much for women. Reading the Golfwork's Club Identification Guide opened my eyes to the fact that women's clubs are basically men's with the colors changed to protect the innocent. I don't know about all the particulars of golf shafts either, except that are four men's flexes and one women's, and they don't give you any actual data that would allow you to compare.

About fitting for a particular ball, I haven't settled on one ball yet. It seems to me manufacturers change balls frequently; many times I've had wonderful recommendations only to find out they are no longer produced. For a Truly (Stunningly!) Average Golfer, would being fit for a particular ball make that much difference? I plan on keeping my fitted clubs a long time, the ball used will most likely go out of production.

Unless once you're fitted, you can use the information to buy any clubs you like as long as they are altered to match your fitting?

Also, if I'm fitted by trial and error, is it [b]my[/b] trial and error? Or the fitting pro's? I'm not quite grasping your meaning there.

Thanks so much,

Kathy Marie
[/quote]

There are those who will disagree with this, particularly those in the business of selling golf equipment, but here goes.

First off, it was my impression that you are pretty much a beginner. If I am wrong about this I apologize.

Until you develop some degree of consistency, there isn't much a fitter can do for you. He can help with grip size and shaft length. From your other posts, it seems to me you've got a pretty good handle on that already.

As we've discussed, there's nothing out there in women's clubs that is better than the set of irons you got on Ebay (which if you haven't gotten them yet why is it taking so long?). The seven wood that you acquired will do better for you than any hybrid, and the middle irons of your set will play just as well as any equivalent hybrid I know of.

Same thing applies to ball fitting. They are all about the same when it comes to distance. They are much closer in performance around the greens today (from least expensive to most expensive) than they were 30 years ago. You should find a ball that you like the feel of. And the best way to do it is to go to a store (Play It Again Sports is a good example if you have them in your area) that sells used balls individually. You can literally buy a dozen consisting of twelve different models and have fun determining what you like best.

But a club fitting or a ball fitting at this point? Not necessary. And as super20dan pointed out, the whole purpose of fittings is to sell gear. It's not to determine what your specs are and then have you take the info to Ebay to shop, although you are free to do so.

I've never had a club or ball fitting in 40 years. I can fit the static specs such as grip size and shaft length myself. And the rest is trial and error. But I want it to be my trial and my error.

Despite what the ads say, you can't buy a golf game. You acquire it through sweat equity. If your clubs are a really bad fit, it won't help. But I don't think that's the case. In fact, I think you're off to a great start!

[EmperorPenguin]

I still think that these heel-shafted putters are more for collectors than to use on the golf course. I would estimate to seeing about 1400 golfers per year on the golf course, but how many of them per year use an 8802, Wizard 600 or similar heel-shafted putter? I would estimate no more than a dozen per year. Having tried to use one myself for a few rounds, I find that putts are way harder to start on line, given the timing required for the open-to-shut action. I started balls online way more often with my Bulls Eye than the 8802, so the 8802 stayed out of the bag. I think that the most common type of putter I see out on the course is an Anser style. People tend to use what works, and apparently the 8802 is more for collection than making putts.

[ibgolfr]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1386985422' post='8297385']
i dont have a real 8802 in my huge putter collection. got several very good copies and my fav is a 1965 wilson tour special
[/quote]

I am not certain that Wilson themselves could absolutely tell you exactly how and what the 64' looked like. It would be interesting to know if they actually have such a record and photographs.

Additionally, I don't know that Palmer ever used the Designed by in any tour event...with all the pictures taken of him, there doesn't seem to be one anywhere.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1391343961' post='8582704']
Try to find a player of your level who has a new ,or recent, set you could hit. Go to demo days for your own trial and error. Look up on manufacturer's websites for dates in your area. Look in used barrels and buy a 5 iron that appeals to you. Do not buy unless you can try the clubs ON THE GOLF COURSE. BUY A SLEEVE OF 4 different balls and try them on the course after warming up with your clubs. Find a par 3 and it a shot with each of the 4. balls. Use your favorite putter with the balls. Do Not change a wedge if you get results with it. I have a wedge that came from the Mizuno tour trailer 8 years ago and a Penna wedge that is over half a century old in my bag. Do not make the mistake of getting rid of your last wedges . Buy a set of irons 56789. Try hybrids to fill in.

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote] good advice Mr Penna that's what all the old timers like my dad did. I still have his old black face tourney Customs and I actually played with them the other day but the wedge is missing. I do remember he kept that black face split sole wedge in his bag for years even when he switched from Mac to Wilson and finally Ram before he retired. Those old split sole black faces are hard to find now I feel for those reasons. I asked him about that wedge when he gave me the old TCs and he told me he gave that wedge to a friend of his when he retired.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1392379700' post='8665929']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1391343961' post='8582704']
Try to find a player of your level who has a new ,or recent, set you could hit. Go to demo days for your own trial and error. Look up on manufacturer's websites for dates in your area. Look in used barrels and buy a 5 iron that appeals to you. Do not buy unless you can try the clubs ON THE GOLF COURSE. BUY A SLEEVE OF 4 different balls and try them on the course after warming up with your clubs. Find a par 3 and it a shot with each of the 4. balls. Use your favorite putter with the balls. Do Not change a wedge if you get results with it. I have a wedge that came from the Mizuno tour trailer 8 years ago and a Penna wedge that is over half a century old in my bag. Do not make the mistake of getting rid of your last wedges . Buy a set of irons 56789. Try hybrids to fill in.

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote] good advice Mr Penna that's what all the old timers like my dad did. I still have his old black face tourney Customs and I actually played with them the other day but the wedge is missing. I do remember he kept that black face split sole wedge in his bag for years even when he switched from Mac to Wilson and finally Ram before he retired. Those old split sole black faces are hard to find now I feel for those reasons. I asked him about that wedge when he gave me the old TCs and he told me he gave that wedge to a friend of his when he retired.
[/quote]


In my opinion, the hardest club to replace is a wedge. To quote Gary Player,"There is more to read in a bunker versus a putting green". I cannot understand the player who changes wedges monthly because the grooves wear. There are more than a couple on tour today who do so.

CHARLEY PENNA

[super20dan]

i couldnt agree more. a really good wedge is hard to replace. esp since new models are introduced all the time and your old fav goes away from stores. for me the wedge is the most important club in the bag. i can putt with anything but finding a wedge that really suits your game is very hard.

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1391357733' post='8583694']
There are those who will disagree with this, particularly those in the business of selling golf equipment, but here goes.

First off, it was my impression that you are pretty much a beginner. If I am wrong about this I apologize.

Until you develop some degree of consistency, there isn't much a fitter can do for you. He can help with grip size and shaft length. From your other posts, it seems to me you've got a pretty good handle on that already.

As we've discussed, there's nothing out there in women's clubs that is better than the set of irons you got on Ebay (which if you haven't gotten them yet why is it taking so long?). The seven wood that you acquired will do better for you than any hybrid, and the middle irons of your set will play just as well as any equivalent hybrid I know of.

Same thing applies to ball fitting. They are all about the same when it comes to distance. They are much closer in performance around the greens today (from least expensive to most expensive) than they were 30 years ago. You should find a ball that you like the feel of. And the best way to do it is to go to a store (Play It Again Sports is a good example if you have them in your area) that sells used balls individually. You can literally buy a dozen consisting of twelve different models and have fun determining what you like best.

But a club fitting or a ball fitting at this point? Not necessary. And as super20dan pointed out, the whole purpose of fittings is to sell gear. It's not to determine what your specs are and then have you take the info to Ebay to shop, although you are free to do so.

I've never had a club or ball fitting in 40 years. I can fit the static specs such as grip size and shaft length myself. And the rest is trial and error. But I want it to be my trial and my error.

Despite what the ads say, you can't buy a golf game. You acquire it through sweat equity. If your clubs are a really bad fit, it won't help. But I don't think that's the case. In fact, I think you're off to a great start!
[/quote]

Hello Shallowface,

My apologies for the long delay, I have news to report though! The Butterfly's DID finally arrive and I took them to the range yesterday. And may I say, to you and Super20Dan both:


[color=#ff0000][size=6]Thank you. Thank you [b]VERY MUCH!!![/b][/size][/color]



These irons do something I've not been able to do before: they GO UP, I have a better trajectory!! At least it looks like it to me--and plus which, pitching wedge shots tend to Hit, Bounce and STOP. OK, snow isn't grass--but that's still VERY encouraging!

And I agree that I am a beginner--still. I hit the knee wall with two shots, whiffed twice, missed the ball on the side *away* from me twice (what would you call that?) and can't hit a long iron to save my life. I hit a ball well about 30% of the time and my errors are mainly some flavor of top or whiff. What I do have going for me is my shots are pretty straight; I get pushes or pulls, not curves. I had two slices yesterday, which is about average for me over 50 shots.

So I'm not consistent, but how consistent do I have to be to get out of the "beginner" category? Do I have to hit it well 50% of the time? 60%, 70%???

The instructor at my class last year said we beginners should put every shot up on a tee when we started to play, and then gradually lower them until we were hitting from the ground. I didn't do it because I thought it was cheating. Do you think it's cheating, have you ever heard of beginners playing this way?

I brought the woods yesterday too and they are *much* more fun from a tee. I even got uppity and tried the driver! The 2nd to last shot was Beautiful, I could feel the shaft flexing in my hands and then the ball just FLEW!!! I've never hit a longer shot I don't think, it went ~130 yds and bounced to 150. And it was [i]straight[/i], at 12 o'clock!!! My last shot was solid too--it's nice to end on a high note.

I did note some challenges, though. I just can't hit the Sand Genie like you can, I can't seem to handle it on the matts. Do you have some suggestions I can try or is off-the-matt an advanced shot?

The Butterfly driver and 3 wood grips are *melting* in spots (???) and the blue plastic gloops onto my hand. Is there something you know of to fix that or should I just buy new grips? Also, I'd like to keep the butterfly motif endcaps, is this possible with different grips?

I got The Short Way to Lower Scoring by Paul Runyan and I really like it so far, thanks for the head's up!

I've read in another book practicing with impact tape can be helpful--what do you think? Have you tried it and was it worth the trouble?

I will try the old "compare and contrast" with golf balls I've got and report back.

This is going to be a GREAT SUMMER, thank you both so much!!!

Kathy Marie

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1392697483' post='8691709']


This is going to be a GREAT SUMMER, thank you both so much!!!

Kathy Marie
[/quote]

Glad to hear that you like your clubs!

Don't worry about not being able to hit a long iron yet. You may never hit the 3 or 4 iron that well. A lot of men don't either. That's what the 7 wood is for. It covers the distance of the 3 and 4 iron, and is much easier to get into the air.

I agree with your instructor about teeing shots up on the course. Sure it's not in the rulebook, but you're just starting. It's part of the learning process. It takes some of the pressure away of dealing with bad lies. It eliminates some of the frustration. And, it's only temporary. You'll progress past that point in no time. I've seen tour pros tee up every iron shot on the range when they're working on something. It's just fine.

I'd save the Sand Genie (or for that matter any sand wedge) until you get outdoors on the grass. The bounce on a sand wedge makes using it on a mat very difficult. It's the thing that makes the club work off sand or grass, but a mat just rejects it. When you get out on grass, you'll see how it works. Stick with the pitching wedge or nine iron for short game work on a mat.

Sounds like you'll need those woods regripped. I've never seen Tacki Mac grips melt before. They must have been stored someplace hot, at least for a time. The Tacki Mac grips of today still have a plastic endcap, but I don't know if it would be possible to swap the new cap for the Butterfly cap or not. If you have an experienced club repair man in your area, you might want to ask him.

Personally I have never understood the benefit of impact tape, so I can't endorse it. I think you'll be able to tell where your hitting it on the clubface, and most of the time the ball will leave a mark you can see (and it can be wiped off).

Looking forward to hearing about your progress!

[golfprojoe]

I have a couple of the 8802's, one bought new at golf shop at Texas A&M in early 60's and one given to me by a Wilson meat packers salesman from trunk of his car. Apparently he gave some to customers. I saw no mention of8813 putters, at one time there were 2 models, one with a line on it and one with a dot that the catalog called the Australian model. Thanks for all the pics from everyone

[Texsport]

[quote name='golfprojoe' timestamp='1393727992' post='8775088']
I have a couple of the 8802's, one bought new at golf shop at Texas A&M in early 60's and one given to me by a Wilson meat packers salesman from trunk of his car. Apparently he gave some to customers. I saw no mention of8813 putters, at one time there were 2 models, one with a line on it and one with a dot that the catalog called the Australian model. Thanks for all the pics from everyone
[/quote]

The line was often on 8813 models and the dot was most often on foreign sold 8802 models, but there are probably exceptions.

Texsport

[JJShanley]

I picked up a new 8802 in 1999 (aged 16) at a golf shop in Howth, just outside of Dublin. I had read a 1997 Phil Mickelson interview where he said he had always wanted one, but that Wilson had never offered a left-hand model. Yonex (his then sponsor) made him a near-replica. I thought they looked great, so I bought one the first time I saw one. I put in in action at Strandhill, on the west coast of Ireland, a few days later. I remember holing my first putt on the practice green from 30-odd feet. I took something like 27 putts for the round, which might be my best ever.

I have a modern Odyssey now, but I bring out the 8802 for practice sessions. I really liked using it on links courses back in Scotia. I didn't find a cover to fit it until 2009 so it has a number of little dings.

[Blade Junkie]

Wilson is apparently re-launching the 8802 as part of it's centenary celebrations:


[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/226631/wilson-staff-reintroduces-its-classic-8802-putter/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ic-8802-putter/[/url]

[persimmonman]

The 8813 in my profile pic rotates from time to time with my SC Studio Design 3. I read somewhere that the original 8802's and early 8813's had a different steel source than even the ones from the late 1960's. This one has a very subtle grain pattern on the face which I haven't seen on other 8813' 345's or 355's. the feel also seems more soft on impact. They are great putters. They create a glare on sunny days though.

[teevons]

here is a link on Ebay, this seller has some really nice classics for sale. He is selling an original 8802 and explains in detail about the design http://www.ebay.com/itm/400767056131?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[ScooterMcTavish]

This putter is totally not suited to my game, but now I lust after one after looking at the pics, reading the history, and trolling eBay.

You are all bad people.

[Medson]

I copied the auction's description below.

"Let's take a brief look at the history of this great line of putters: the predecessor of our modern flanged blade first made an appearance with the A.G. Spalding & Bros. HB (Hollowback) putter of the 1920s that Tommy Armour made famous with his many tournament victories. In fact, Armour was the #1 ranked golfer in the World in 1931 and signed a long term endorsement deal with MacGregor in 1934. Soon MacGregor was cranking out several different styles of the Tommy Armour Iron Master's (later Ironmaster) putter (production ran from 1935-1967!).

A young pro by the name of Arnold Palmer picked up a 1948 model of this putter and welded a bit more of a flange on the rear of the putter and went on to become the #1 golfer in the World. With Palmer's astonishing success, and tremendous charisma, Wilson began to market the "Arnold Palmer" putter in the spring of 1962 (they soon transitioned to the improved name: "Designed by Arnold Palmer"). Production continued until November 1, 1963 when Palmer left Wilson to start his own company. Production of these Palmer putters is estimated at 16,000 pieces.

Bob Mandrella, a longtime Wilson employee, fashioned six prototype putters to carry on the "Designed by Arnold Palmer" tradition under a different name. The prototypes were hand stamped simply "The Wilson 8802." The name caught on and for the remainder of 1963 and all of 1964, Wilson produced "The Wilson 8802." Of course these putter achieved extraordinary tournament success with the likes of Ben Crenshaw, Greg Norman, Lee Trevino, Larry Mize, and even Tom Watson, early in his career, using them to win major championships.

In 1965 Wilson debuted the Wilson 8813 putter and from that point on, there was a seemingly endless succession of 8802 remakes. A few of the things you look for to identify a real 8802 from a remake: 1) the "frosted" look to the chrome plating; that was due to the mercury used in this early plating and discontinued later; 2) the "waist" between the topline and the bottom flange---it should narrow and not go straight down; 3) the cambered top of the putter, the later remakes are flat on the top; 4) the nickel test: later remakes had a face depth deeper than a nickel; 5) "Wilson" is in red paintfill and "The" and "8802" are in black paintfill on an original (easily changed however); 6) the original "8802" stamp always has the first "8" deeper than the remaining "802;" 7) the original "Head Speed" shaft band was of green/orange/silver/and black (but just to make things tricky, there was an original silver/black "Head Speed" band used at the very end of 1964---it was different from the later remake bands); and 8) The Wilson flags butt cap (not the Wilson Crest)---of course, shafts can be changed.

The only other known prototype 8802 putter belonged to the late Richard Ferris whose putter was identical to mine. Richard sent his putter to Bob Mandrella in the early 1990s and Bob confirmed it was one of six early prototypes---he still had the hand stamps in his desk that he used to stamp the putters and it matched perfectly! A close examination of the stamps on the two 8802 putters in the first picture shows a beautiful original on top and the prototype underneath. None of the stampings are the same and it is obvious that the prototype has a larger "8802" stamp.

A great putter for the 8802, Designed by collector. 35 inches in length."

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1409937426' post='10070799']
here is a link on Ebay, this seller has some really nice classics for sale. He is selling an original 8802 and explains in detail about the design [url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/400767056131?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT"]http://www.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT[/url]
[/quote]

[Medson]

Got a question for you all. How are the production DBAP and early 8802 manufactured, cast, forged? Then chromed?

[guisician]

Can't find any pics of my 8802, but here are the ancestors:

Spalding HB (in my hickory bag):
[attachment=2480587:image.jpg]
[attachment=2480589:image.jpg]
[attachment=2480591:image.jpg]

Spalding HBA (in my vintage bag):
[attachment=2480593:image.jpg]
[attachment=2480595:image.jpg]

MacGregor Ironmaster:
[attachment=2480597:image.jpg]

[Johnny Hack]

While I no longer have an 8802 in my collection (dear friend wanted it and when he passed a couple of years ago it seemed to disappear) I have always had a

"Love Affair" with the look of a good Heel Shafted Blade Putter and so I thought I would show off some here for those that are interested , Heel shafted Blades as they are my weakness, enjoy the pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EmperorPenguin]

Wow! Those are very sexy blade putters you have. However, if they were mine I would trade them all for an original Sportsman George Low Wizard 600, like this guy in Newport Beach, and his is mint!