Scotty Cameron and the Japanese Rising Sun flag

[xxio]

I'm surprised US Military guys have not chimed in. I have a American cousin and uncle visiting right now and I showed them the picture both said it induced images of "Tora, Tora" and the suicide fighter pilots because that would be the symbol those pilots would carry.

That being said aesthetically it looks good. However beauty is never enough, I'm sure a better design could be made.

I did mention awhile back there eventually could be some conflict with Scotty's 2nd biggest market being Japan and Titleist being owned by Koreans. Generally those two countries don't get along.

[deck]

Yeah. I'm neither Korean or Chinese and I find that flag offensive as well as the southern flag for the meaning it has taken on by people since the civil war.

[Canuckistan]

Wow, those things look amazing!!!! And now even better the few that have been sold are gonna go for a fortune

[TKD24]

I'm a second generation Korean (born and raised in the US), and although I agree about the insensitivity of the symbol presenting on the bag and headcovers, I'm personally not harboring feelings of ill-will or resentment because of the incident in question (Scotty putting the rising sun on the bag).

Now, I know that my grandparents and maybe even (but not so much) my parents would have very different feelings towards the issue. But my generation wasn't raised to treat the symbol as something synonymous with a swastica. We buy Japanese products, we have Japanese friends, and we eat Japanese food. I love the movie Karate Kid, and the headband he wears is exactly that symbol!

Ultimately, Scotty made a mistake and apologized. That's good enough for me.

By the way, the "symbol" in question isn't what's on the front of the bag, it's what's on the side.

[jaehyukchae]

[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1382145729' post='8024417']
I'm surprised US Military guys have not chimed in. I have a American cousin and uncle visiting right now and I showed them the picture both said it induced images of "Tora, Tora" and the suicide fighter pilots because that would be the symbol those pilots would carry.

That being said aesthetically it looks good. However beauty is never enough, I'm sure a better design could be made.

I did mention awhile back there eventually could be some conflict with Scotty's 2nd biggest market being Japan and Titleist being owned by Koreans. Generally those two countries don't get along.
[/quote]
I did.

[sharkiesj]

[quote name='lowdraw16' timestamp='1382096707' post='8020555']
No, because Japan isn't that great of a country, very greedy. I'm Korean, so I sometimes get offended. They tried to invade China and failed, yet they still harassed and killed many women and children. And they occupied Korea, where they literally ENSLAVED them. And mistreatment of women was also common. They were cruel, which is why many Koreans consider Japanese people very cruel, bad people.
[/quote]

Would love to know why you think the country of Japan isn't that great and why you think Japanese people are greedy.

[geauxWRX]

Isn't this the same logo on oban shafts?

[Timanator]

I'm asian, and to some of the people I know, this would be a big deal. Alot of the old school Asian people to this day still will not buy a Japnanese made car, so yeah, it's a big deal.

[trojangolfer]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1382572859' post='8048567']
I'm asian, and to some of the people I know, this would be a big deal. Alot of the old school Asian people to this day still will not buy a Japnanese made car, so yeah, it's a big deal.
[/quote]

This is not just a symbol. It is a symbol under which the Japanese committed genocide during the periods leading up to WW2 and during WW2. To dismiss it as people being oversensitive or politically correct really misses the mark. My neighbor's Korean grandfather was forced to dig a trench, and then was shot and shallowly buried in that trench, during WW2 for the offense of being a Korean Christian. The fact that any major corporation in 2013 could miss this symbolism is, simply put, inexcusable.

[502 to Right]

The Cameron Collector locked their thread on this subject. What a surprise that the Cameron Propaganda Machine would shut down a debate discussing the shortcomings of The Great One.

[irwinfletcher77]

What exactly were most saying over there. Was going to check it out but never did.

[caller]

[quote name='Directvtechguy' timestamp='1382094373' post='8020491']
I hate to appear ignorant but screw it.... Since it was used by the Japanese as a military symbol.... How exactly is it offensive? Wouldn't that be similiar to saying the American Flag is offensive to German people because we defeated them twice in military conflict?

Serious question fellas.
[/quote]

Ok.

First I am not sure if that bag and headcover resembles "Rising sun" but that is different question. I am kind of 50/50 on this.

Second, I am a Korean American living in deep South but I can guarantee you that "rising sun" is offensive to Korean for a different reason.

War is won and lost so that isn't making anything offensive however "rising sun" was used by so called "Japanese Imperial Force" during WW2.

This was used to kidnap Korean women and used them as "comfort women" by Japanese government.

Innocent Korean and other Asian nations women were kidnapped and thrown into a military station to be used sex slave.

We aren't talking about rape and pillage. They built a structure to use brutally, systematically use these victims as sex slaves for 20~30 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

Like I said, war is won and lost by others and flags are used. However this "rising sun" was used for very specific reason. Imperial Japanese who invaded other Asian nations.
What makes it really bitter is that they never apologize for what happened. Japanese government denies it.

Did you know that Japanese school do not teach their children about WW2 era? How they systematically massacre and raped people for many years by their government.
They don't teach that they don't teach about Perl Harbor.

I hope you understand why this is very sensitive issue.

My grandmother was from very rich family and she could avoided it however her friends weren't that luck. There are people who has deep scar from it and Japanese government is letting time go by so these victims will pass away.

Here's the news from California. Hope this also explains.

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/08/02/california-city-unveils-comfort-women-statue/

[caller]

[quote name='golfingchuck' timestamp='1382114552' post='8021981']
The bag and headcovers look freaking awesome!!!! I can see where sensitive nancy's can see the rising sun but I don't think that was the motive! Another case of people being hyper sensitive.

Scotty, you should display that proudly!!!!
[/quote]

I wouldn't call it hyper sensitive when Japanese army officers were having head chopping contest with Chinese/Korean people under this flag. They literally chopping innocent civilian heads in front of news reporters to see if they can break the record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

[caller]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1382097794' post='8020601']
Or a southern flag vs the USFlag.
[/quote]

Sir, probably more issues and nations involved than Dixie flag.

[questfor80sf]

[quote name='golfingchuck' timestamp='1382115313' post='8022059']
[quote name='zerofade' timestamp='1382114681' post='8021991']
i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location..
[/quote]Oh let me guess, you took offense to it and will now boycott anything Scotty Cameron or Titleist? That is your right if you so choose. I find it to be a good looking product and if people find it an issue that is a them problem.

Scotty Cameron and Titleist make good products and shouldn't apologize for doing nothing wrong!! What does me living where I do have anything to do with anything? What if I'm from Boseong, South Korea? Would you still tell me "i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location.."

You're not going to be sensitive are you?
[/quote]

Japanese person here. Once again, super shocked that a white person in the south sees blatant racism as a non-issue. I think his point is that mayyyyybe you not seeing obvious racism as a problem may have some correlation to you living in a state that literally went to war so they could continue to keep slaves?

[golfingchuck]

[quote name='questfor80sf' timestamp='1382847331' post='8063543']
[quote name='golfingchuck' timestamp='1382115313' post='8022059']
[quote name='zerofade' timestamp='1382114681' post='8021991']
i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location..
[/quote]Oh let me guess, you took offense to it and will now boycott anything Scotty Cameron or Titleist? That is your right if you so choose. I find it to be a good looking product and if people find it an issue that is a them problem.

Scotty Cameron and Titleist make good products and shouldn't apologize for doing nothing wrong!! What does me living where I do have anything to do with anything? What if I'm from Boseong, South Korea? Would you still tell me "i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location.."

You're not going to be sensitive are you?
[/quote]

Japanese person here. Once again, super shocked that a white person in the south sees blatant racism as a non-issue. I think his point is that mayyyyybe you not seeing obvious racism as a problem may have some correlation to you living in a state that literally went to war so they could continue to keep slaves?
[/quote]how uninformed you are as to why the state I live in and the region I grew up in went to war!!!!! Please read a little bit of history, just a little as to why the "South" went to war. The civil war wad not fought over slavery!! It was fought over States rights!! ALL and yes ALL State had slave owners, s*** even Grant owned dlaves well after the war!!

Even our president, and in the top 3 of worst presidents of all time Lincoln in his own words did not care if the slaves were freed or not. He again in his own words thought slaves were below whites and should not vote nor hold office of any kind.

The main reason the Civil War was fought was over States rights!! Each State is a country, the same as Japan, China, Germany etc... Yes cotton and slavery were the main money maker of the south but it was each individual states right to decide that for them selves what they can and cant do and not a Tyrant in a far off City (King or Dictator).

For everyone who reads this please do a little research on what I have discussed. I will do the same in regards to the way Imperial Japan treated other peoples and their country.

Also, keep an open mind when reading about the real Lincoln and the horrible things he did to the American people, the man was truly a tyrant and how the things that happened in the 1860s and the similarities today that are going on with government

Edit: the war was not only fought over slavery but the main thing was states rights

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='golfingchuck' timestamp='1382893759' post='8064871']
[quote name='questfor80sf' timestamp='1382847331' post='8063543']
[quote name='golfingchuck' timestamp='1382115313' post='8022059']
[quote name='zerofade' timestamp='1382114681' post='8021991']
i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location..
[/quote]Oh let me guess, you took offense to it and will now boycott anything Scotty Cameron or Titleist? That is your right if you so choose. I find it to be a good looking product and if people find it an issue that is a them problem.

Scotty Cameron and Titleist make good products and shouldn't apologize for doing nothing wrong!! What does me living where I do have anything to do with anything? What if I'm from Boseong, South Korea? Would you still tell me "i'm gonna take a wild guess at what part of the country your from .. oh wait look your location.."

You're not going to be sensitive are you?
[/quote]

Japanese person here. Once again, super shocked that a white person in the south sees blatant racism as a non-issue. I think his point is that mayyyyybe you not seeing obvious racism as a problem may have some correlation to you living in a state that literally went to war so they could continue to keep slaves?
[/quote]how uninformed you are as to why the state I live in and the region I grew up in went to war!!!!! Please read a little bit of history, just a little as to why the "South" went to war. The civil war wad not fought over slavery!! It was fought over States rights!! ALL and yes ALL State had slave owners, s*** even Grant owned dlaves well after the war!!

Even our president, and in the top 3 of worst presidents of all time Lincoln in his own words did not care if the slaves were freed or not. He again in his own words thought slaves were below whites and should not vote nor hold office of any kind.

The main reason the Civil War was fought was over States rights!! Each State is a country, the same as Japan, China, Germany etc... Yes cotton and slavery were the main money maker of the south but it was each individual states right to decide that for them selves what they can and cant do and not a Tyrant in a far off City (King or Dictator).

For everyone who reads this please do a little research on what I have discussed. I will do the same in regards to the way Imperial Japan treated other peoples and their country.

Also, keep an open mind when reading about the real Lincoln and the horrible things he did to the American people, the man was truly a tyrant and how the things that happened in the 1860s and the similarities today that are going on with government

Edit: the war was not only fought over slavery but the main thing was states rights
[/quote]You are right....sort of.....
The war was fought over states rights...that is why the Confederacy was formed, and why states seceded. Their primary concern was free commerce, tariffs, trade etc. Especially with England and Europe. The North saw it a little differently, many in the north did not view slavery as a states rights issue, they viewed it as a human rights issue. So for what was basically marketing reasons the south made it about states rights, and the north made it about slavery at least in the press, for obvious reasons such as funding, recruitment and publicity reasons around the world. Lincoln also had a deep desire to preserve the union and of course used slavery as a tool to justify the war. It is also pretty well documented that Lincoln abhorred slavery and felt it was his duty to end it. So maybe the war did not technically start over slavery however the issue was the big elephant in the room, and in the end the war will be known as the war that ended slavery. I think we can all agree that that is a wonderful outcome of a horrid situation.

Whether your statements about Lincoln are true are not, I think they are based loosely on facts that are taken out of context by some. He was certainly not a perfect person, he did some things in a time of war which could be considered unconstitutional, however your comments are obviously biased to make your point. So it is a matter of opinion on whether the end justifies the means.

I understand why the 'stars and bars" is a symbol of the south, I also understand why many hate the symbol, I also understand that many radical groups have high jacked the symbol and tarnished it in the public eye. I also, I think, agree with your sentiment that the federal "guberment" has infringed on states rights, and it is only getting worse in recent times. I think we can agree that states rights are important, the trend that was started by Lincoln has now changed our country for the worse, however the state you live in is NOT a country like Japan or Korea.

Symbols are very powerful things, whether it is a cross, a swastika, a rainbow, the American flag, a skull and crossbones a symbol means something and stirs passions. For example before the 1930's a swastika was commonly used by many groups as it was an ancient Roman symbol, it had nothing to do with hate or genocide. If one were to want to make a political statement about states rights I think finding a different symbol would be a better idea, such as the Don't Tread on Me flag etc.

I am certainly not a politically correct sort of person, and I certainly don't get my panties in a bind over people doing or saying politically incorrect things, but one should be mindful of what they are doing when they are conducting themselves in someone else s culture. What does piss me off is when others come to my culture and get bent out of shape about what I am doing or people that are apart of my culture are doing. (within the confines of the law of course.)

Off my soap box now....

[Medson]

Very informative thread, but it's becoming irrelevant to golf. Mod might lock this down soon.

[golfingchuck]

I do feel that each state is its own country and believe that the founders intended it to be that way! Why else do we have our own state constitution, government?

[Riuzzi]

[quote name='Medson' timestamp='1382901064' post='8065223']
Very informative thread, but it's becoming irrelevant to golf. Mod might lock this down soon.
[/quote]

You're correct. Time to get back on topic.

[daveltb]

Embrace history and learn from it. The symbols will always have two sides. Don't be offended if symbols don't suit your personal agenda.

[Soloman1]

The problem here is that it's [i]not[/i] the rising sun flag.

The naval ensign is not the same and the bag just has some red and white rays, nothing even close to the rising sun flag.

[bub72ck]

[quote name='caller' timestamp='1382735940' post='8058301']
[quote name='Directvtechguy' timestamp='1382094373' post='8020491']
I hate to appear ignorant but screw it.... Since it was used by the Japanese as a military symbol.... How exactly is it offensive? Wouldn't that be similiar to saying the American Flag is offensive to German people because we defeated them twice in military conflict?

Serious question fellas.
[/quote]

Ok.

First I am not sure if that bag and headcover resembles "Rising sun" but that is different question. I am kind of 50/50 on this.

Second, I am a Korean American living in deep South but I can guarantee you that "rising sun" is offensive to Korean for a different reason.

War is won and lost so that isn't making anything offensive however "rising sun" was used by so called "Japanese Imperial Force" during WW2.

This was used to kidnap Korean women and used them as "comfort women" by Japanese government.

Innocent Korean and other Asian nations women were kidnapped and thrown into a military station to be used sex slave.

We aren't talking about rape and pillage. They built a structure to use brutally, systematically use these victims as sex slaves for 20~30 years.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women"]http://en.wikipedia....i/Comfort_women[/url]

Like I said, war is won and lost by others and flags are used. However this "rising sun" was used for very specific reason. Imperial Japanese who invaded other Asian nations.
What makes it really bitter is that they never apologize for what happened. Japanese government denies it.

Did you know that Japanese school do not teach their children about WW2 era? How they systematically massacre and raped people for many years by their government.
They don't teach that they don't teach about Perl Harbor.

I hope you understand why this is very sensitive issue.

My grandmother was from very rich family and she could avoided it however her friends weren't that luck. There are people who has deep scar from it and Japanese government is letting time go by so these victims will pass away.

Here's the news from California. Hope this also explains.

[url="http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/08/02/california-city-unveils-comfort-women-statue/"]http://blogs.wsj.com...t-women-statue/[/url]
[/quote]

Incredibly sad story. I take great interest in World War II history and had never heard of this.

[backtees]

Looking at what happened in Asia / South East Asia between 1894 and 1945 clearly shows that using the symbol of the Raising Sun offends a lot of people.
Not only Korean but also Chinese a.o..

Hard to understand that such a big globally active company trading with such a lot of different cultures all around the world made such a mistake.

Fortunately they realized that they made that mistake and apologized.

[snookybusby]

Is this the symbol of the dog with a red dot and black and white outstretching stripes? If so I don't see how at all this resembles the rising sun flag which, I agree, would be offensive. It's not the same proportion, shape or color. Maybe I am just missing it, but I have a number of Korean friends and I just have to say they are pretty dang smart...way too smart to confuse a hate-filled flag with a modern design on a dog.

[snookybusby]

Is this the symbol of the dog with a red dot and black and white outstretching stripes? If so I don't see how at all this resembles the rising sun flag which, I agree, would be offensive. It's not the same proportion, shape or color. Maybe I am just missing it, but I have a number of Korean friends and I just have to say they are pretty dang smart...way too smart to confuse a hate-filled flag with a modern design on a dog.