How Much Stronger Will Irons Become?

[Kacee]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388297057' post='8361905']
The industry is getting way out of hand. When I started playing golf in 1990, the pitching wedge was 48 degrees and the standard 5 iron was 37.5". Graphite shafts were starting to become popular, persimmon wood heads were phasing out, and irons with perimeter weighting--later to be known as "cavity back"--was in vogue. Technology has taken over tradition when it comes to club design and clubmaking, and we have Callaway Golf to thank for shattering the standards. Ever since the Big Bertha irons were first released in 1994, equipment manufacturers were trying to devise ways for clubs to hit the ball longer and straighter with every club. Today, clubs are stronger and longer. I understand that the standard length 5 iron with steel shaft is 38" and half an inch longer for graphite, and the pitching wedge is now 43 or 42 degrees. This is ridiculous. At some point the bumping of lofts must stop. Will we see a pitching wedge at 35 degrees? I would not count that out, since long irons are phased out and people are putting four or five wedges in their bags.

What is your guess, guys, to how strong clubs will become ten or more years from now? Let's just assume the year 2025. Will the pitching wedge fall below 40 degrees and the 5 iron reach 40 inches?
[/quote]
My pitching wedge is 9.5* and is 44.75" long, I hit it 230-240 consistently. I have 10 wedges though.

Seriously, if you are hitting your pitching wedge too long and have a big gap between it and your sand wedge, buy a gap wedge.

[Froth]

I think the real question here is how strong will they dare make a PW and still call it a PW, I cannot see it going much past 42° but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 40° from someone. Honestly I think that we may see the designation of PW removed entirely from certain sets of clubs and have that replaced with something like W1, W2, W3 which I would not be opposed to. Why not go back to something like MacGregor used to do? Have a 9 iron, 10 iron and even 11 iron THEN go to the PW. This would satisfy almost everyone by not only keeping the PW around 47°-50°, but also introducing something that was popular in years gone by.

[hobbygolfer]

Froth,

that's already an established method for some of the Japanese companies like Maruman. In their Majesty set, the longest iron sold is the #4 with an actual loft of 19°. The #10 has 39°, PW 44° and AW is 50°.

So without labeling an iron a #10, the PW would be a 39°.

Regards,
Michael

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388326710' post='8362331']
[quote name='j_king' timestamp='1388324551' post='8362253']
Buy a 4-U/GW and call it a day. It doesn't matter what is on the bottom, just buy what lofts you need. All of Pings 'U' wedges are 50 degrees. You could call it your 'pitching wedge' or write a P on it with a sharpie if it makes you feel better.
[/quote]

Question is when are equipment companies going to introduce GW2 into the mix?
[/quote]

Your "when" is "now"...........

Titleist AP1 - 2014 model - offers A1 (48 degrees) and A2 (52 degrees) wedges.

[wayne18]

At this point I'm all for just putting the loft number on the sole like most wedges.

[Nessism]

[quote name='wayne18' timestamp='1388353685' post='8364123']
At this point I'm all for just putting the loft number on the sole like most wedges.
[/quote]

Yea but then (insert name of golf company here) can't claim their new clubs are "longest ever made"!

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1388343836' post='8363403']
I think the real question here is how strong will they dare make a PW and still call it a PW, I cannot see it going much past 42° but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 40° from someone. Honestly I think that we may see the designation of PW removed entirely from certain sets of clubs and have that replaced with something like W1, W2, W3 which I would not be opposed to. Why not go back to something like MacGregor used to do? Have a 9 iron, 10 iron and even 11 iron THEN go to the PW. This would satisfy almost everyone by not only keeping the PW around 47°-50°, but also introducing something that was popular in years gone by.
[/quote]Froth If I remember correctly the Tommy Armour 845s in the late 80s early 90s did exactly that. Also Mac was not the only one to do the 10 iron thing Spalding did it on the Elite and Top Flite lines I do not ever recall a Spalding 11 iron though

[wayne18]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388354133' post='8364151']
[quote name='wayne18' timestamp='1388353685' post='8364123']
At this point I'm all for just putting the loft number on the sole like most wedges.
[/quote]

Yea but then (insert name of golf company here) can't claim their new clubs are "longest ever made"!
[/quote]
agree, plus it is a little easier with the single number. It would definitely take some getting use to

[MrFlapjack]

Kind of sad to see the 3 iron dying a slow death.

Here's my set in 10 years:

6 iron
7 iron
8 iron
9 iron
PW
Advance wedge
Approximation wedge
Approach wedge
Sand wedge
Lob wedge

[budeagle]

Why not put a W on every club with the loft then you will always be hitting wedge into the green!

[EmperorPenguin]

[quote name='hobbygolfer' timestamp='1388345012' post='8363483']
...that's already an established method for some of the Japanese companies like Maruman. In their Majesty set, the longest iron sold is the #4 with an actual loft of 19°. The #10 has 39°, PW 44° and AW is 50°.[/quote]
A 4 iron with 19° loft? My Golden Ram 1 iron has 18°!

[jvalhalla]

When I get new clubs I go figure out my distances and ensure I have sufficient wedge coverage. I think the guys that care about the labling either are mad that somebody else has more distance with the "same club" or they've been burned by asking a buddy "what did you hit" and coming up short.

Maybe if I was a guy who swapped irons 4 times a year I'd be more concerned with this issue.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388326710' post='8362331']
[quote name='j_king' timestamp='1388324551' post='8362253']
Buy a 4-U/GW and call it a day. It doesn't matter what is on the bottom, just buy what lofts you need. All of Pings 'U' wedges are 50 degrees. You could call it your 'pitching wedge' or write a P on it with a sharpie if it makes you feel better.
[/quote]

Question is when are equipment companies going to introduce GW2 into the mix?
[/quote]

I think Wilson already has (or had) a set with two gap wedges.

[dlygrisse]

In 2014 I pledge to:
1. Game a 42* PW
2. Carry a 46, 50,54 and 58* gap wedge
3. Wear jeans on the course
4. Untuck my shirt on the course
5. Quit wearing cologne
6. Read the Golfing Machine cover to cover and learn to recite key passages.
7. Buy every driver that Taylor Made releases.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1388354327' post='8364173']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1388343836' post='8363403']
I think the real question here is how strong will they dare make a PW and still call it a PW, I cannot see it going much past 42° but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 40° from someone. Honestly I think that we may see the designation of PW removed entirely from certain sets of clubs and have that replaced with something like W1, W2, W3 which I would not be opposed to. Why not go back to something like MacGregor used to do? Have a 9 iron, 10 iron and even 11 iron THEN go to the PW. This would satisfy almost everyone by not only keeping the PW around 47°-50°, but also introducing something that was popular in years gone by.
[/quote]Froth If I remember correctly the Tommy Armour 845s in the late 80s early 90s did exactly that. Also Mac was not the only one to do the 10 iron thing Spalding did it on the Elite and Top Flite lines I do not ever recall a Spalding 11 iron though
[/quote]

My first hole in one was made with a Spalding Elite Plus 11 Iron in 1982.

It's a wedge with 54 degrees of loft and no bounce.

Still has a proud place on one of my club racks!

[Shallowface]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388372317' post='8365487']
[quote name='hobbygolfer' timestamp='1388345012' post='8363483']
...that's already an established method for some of the Japanese companies like Maruman. In their Majesty set, the longest iron sold is the #4 with an actual loft of 19°. The #10 has 39°, PW 44° and AW is 50°.[/quote]
A 4 iron with 19° loft? My Golden Ram 1 iron has 18°!
[/quote]

"Daddy, why does your iron set start with 4 instead of 1?"

If modern technology was so great, we'd have a 13 degree one iron that we could actually hit.

But the truth is once it gets below 24 degrees most of us struggle.

I just never thought that 24 degree club would have a 6 on it.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='jvalhalla' timestamp='1388372484' post='8365501']
When I get new clubs I go figure out my distances and ensure I have sufficient wedge coverage. I think the guys that care about the labling either are mad that somebody else has more distance with the "same club" or they've been burned by asking a buddy "what did you hit" and coming up short.

Maybe if I was a guy who swapped irons 4 times a year I'd be more concerned with this issue.
[/quote]

Nope, because I know it's not the "same club."

And nope because I never club myself based on what anyone else hits. And if anyone asks what I hit, I tell them I've got old clubs and you don't want to know. I'd never want to mess someone up that way.

[gvogel]

[quote name='Fade' timestamp='1388335981' post='8362895']
Mostly it is just a number, but it is rather silly that the pitching wedge no longer serves its implied purpose.
[/quote]

Bobby Jones, who had the best run of 7 years in golf of all time, did his pitching with a number 8 iron. But in his set, the 8-iron had about 50* of loft.

Btw, his 6-iron had about 38*, the same as a modern 8-iron, and his 4- iron had around 30*, the same as a modern 6-iron.

I agree with the post that said that manufacturers should just stamp the loft on the iron.

[EmperorPenguin]

These are the standard lofts and lies for irons from the [i]CPGA Teaching Manual[/i]:

# Length Loft
2 39 21
3 38.5 25
4 38 29
5 37.5 33
6 37 37
7 36.5 41
8 36 45
9 35.5 49
P 35 53
S 35 57

Granted, these are very old specs for standard equipment, but I find it quite shameful that today's PW is almost as strong as yesterday's 7 iron.

[Sean2]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388375261' post='8365771']
These are the standard lofts and lies for irons from the [i]CPGA Teaching Manual[/i]:

# Length Loft
2 39 21
3 38.5 25
4 38 29
5 37.5 33
6 37 37
7 36.5 41
8 36 45
9 35.5 49
P 35 53
S 35 57

Granted, these are very old specs for standard equipment, but I find it quite shameful that today's PW is almost as strong as yesterday's 7 iron.
[/quote]

Why is it shameful? It's just a number on the bottom of a club. Who cares if it's an PW, 9-iron, or 8-iron that you hit on your approach as long as you put it on the green? Do you really think your scorecard cares what club you used, or what the loft was on the club you used? So some guy hits a jacked 9-iron and you had to hit an old school 7-iron. So what? Are your feelings hurt? Is your ego bruised? C'mon, really? :-)

I just don't understand all this "outrage" over lofts. I couldn't care less what the lofts of my clubs are (in fact I don't know). I just want to know how far I hit each club.

[EmperorPenguin]

[quote name='jvalhalla' timestamp='1388372484' post='8365501']I think the guys that care about the labling either are mad that somebody else has more distance with the "same club" or they've been burned by asking a buddy "what did you hit" and coming up short.[/quote]
I once played a format match against an 18-year-old kid, and although he never asked which club I played, I did catch him looking at my bag and my club to see what I was using. On a par-3 of 165 yards I used my Golden Ram 6 iron and ended up about a yard short of the front edge. He used his Callaway RAZR 5 iron and carried over the green and hit into the guys on the next tee. Man, that was funny!

[Super Tuna]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1388343836' post='8363403']
I think the real question here is how strong will they dare make a PW and still call it a PW, I cannot see it going much past 42° but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 40° from someone. Honestly I think that we may see the designation of PW removed entirely from certain sets of clubs and have that replaced with something like W1, W2, W3 which I would not be opposed to. Why not go back to something like MacGregor used to do? Have a 9 iron, 10 iron and even 11 iron THEN go to the PW. This would satisfy almost everyone by not only keeping the PW around 47°-50°, but also introducing something that was popular in years gone by.
[/quote]

Well, The Cobra S3 iron set had a 43* PW as did the Wilson Staff Di11's. The PRGR Egg Forged PW from the JDM market is 40*

Also interesting is that TM has listened to enough of these comments to do something about it. They've stated on more then one occasion that they're locking the PW at 45* even for the distance sets and that further yardage needs to come from actual technology boosts.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388339823' post='8363179']
Okay then, it's confirmed: I'm an idiot. Been playing since the early 1980's and get confused as to what club to pull sometimes. Heaven help me if I take the 588TT's out of the bag and give the Wilson Progressives a go (lofts are more than 5* different). Guess it's time to start bringing a calculator to the course. Is that legal?
[/quote]

If you can't keep it straight that one set is a club stronger than another then write it on a piece of paper. Why would you want a calculator when paper and pencil has been around for so long?

Seriously, there are a number of reasons for the loft change and added distance is only one of them. If you put old school lofts on a modern game improvement club most would not get the results they desire.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1388373955' post='8365655']
[quote name='Fade' timestamp='1388335981' post='8362895']
Mostly it is just a number, but it is rather silly that the pitching wedge no longer serves its implied purpose.
[/quote]

Bobby Jones, who had the best run of 7 years in golf of all time, did his pitching with a number 8 iron. But in his set, the 8-iron had about 50* of loft.

Btw, his 6-iron had about 38*, the same as a modern 8-iron, and his 4- iron had around 30*, the same as a modern 6-iron.

I agree with the post that said that manufacturers should just stamp the loft on the iron.
[/quote]

I suppose that would work, but then you would have people complaining about manufacturing tolerances and how the club is stamped 45° but really plays at 46.5°...

[TJCDAS]

If the modern clubs kept 4* increments instead of compressing iron lofts of longer irons the modern 3 iron would be at 17* the same as the old 1 irons from the 1960's.

If they keep getting stronger they will need to drop from 3 to 2* increments on the mid and long irons.

Ping drops to 3* increments at the 7 iron in the G25's.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1388376087' post='8365833']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388375261' post='8365771']
These are the standard lofts and lies for irons from the [i]CPGA Teaching Manual[/i]:

# Length Loft
2 39 21
3 38.5 25
4 38 29
5 37.5 33
6 37 37
7 36.5 41
8 36 45
9 35.5 49
P 35 53
S 35 57

Granted, these are very old specs for standard equipment, but I find it quite shameful that today's PW is almost as strong as yesterday's 7 iron.
[/quote]

Why is it shameful? It's just a number on the bottom of a club. Who cares if it's an PW, 9-iron, or 8-iron that you hit on your approach as long as you put it on the green? Do you really think your scorecard cares what club you used, or what the loft was on the club you used? So some guy hits a jacked 9-iron and you had to hit an old school 7-iron. So what? Are your feelings hurt? Is your ego bruised? C'mon, really? :-)

I just don't understand all this "outrage" over lofts. I couldn't care less what the lofts of my clubs are (in fact I don't know). I just want to know how far I hit each club.
[/quote]

It's shameful because it's all about marketing as opposed to real technological advancement.

It's shameful because it's insulting to the intelligence of the consumer, or at least it should be.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1388377375' post='8365941']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388339823' post='8363179']
Okay then, it's confirmed: I'm an idiot. Been playing since the early 1980's and get confused as to what club to pull sometimes. Heaven help me if I take the 588TT's out of the bag and give the Wilson Progressives a go (lofts are more than 5* different). Guess it's time to start bringing a calculator to the course. Is that legal?
[/quote]

If you can't keep it straight that one set is a club stronger than another then write it on a piece of paper. Why would you want a calculator when paper and pencil has been around for so long?

Seriously, there are a number of reasons for the loft change and added distance is only one of them. [b]If you put old school lofts on a modern game improvement club most would not get the results they desire.[/b]
[/quote]

You mean they'd be short?

So how is that technological advancement?

It's certainly true with metal fairway woods versus wooden ones. When metal fairway woods first came on the scene they had the same lofts as their wooden counterparts and were inferior distance wise. It didn't take long for the lofts to be jacked up on those.

Now a five wood has 17 or 18 degrees of loft. I can still hit my old 22 degree Ping Eye 2 5 Wood farther than any 18 degree metal five wood.

[Franks113]

Its just a number on the bottom of the club.

[Froth]

[quote name='Franks113' timestamp='1388411703' post='8366909']
Its just a number on the bottom of the club.
[/quote]
I'm all for going back to putting seemingly random obscure names on them, Like Mashie Niblick and Jigger and Mid Iron.

That way there is no defined set of lofts that each club has to adhere to just to make the general public happy. Just imagine being on the tee of a par 3 with your buddies and having someone ask "Hey what did you hit there?" - "Oh, I hit my Mashie Niblick". The expressions you got back from them would be great.

[superscootkid]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1388301163' post='8362025']
Reason #25352 for why I still play irons from the 80's... 50° PW, 46° 9 iron all the way up to a 23° 3 iron.
[/quote]
I have to admit I am moving from the early 90's to 2000.