How Much Stronger Will Irons Become?

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388883698' post='8399377']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1388882685' post='8399277']C'mon...are your egos that fragile? :-)[/quote]
If golfers are actually buying the stronger clubs, that may be the case. If golfers altogether were as sensible as most of us on GolfWrx, the clubs would not sell, and manufacturers would go back to selling standard lofts.
[/quote]I think utimately, golfers will be the ones dictating what the manf's produce and sell. If golfers complain enough, which seems to be somewhat the case, they will start changing back to more traditional lofts. It really is a testament of the manf's prime desire, "to sell clubs no matter what it takes". Actually, I think it's a little underhanded and sneaky because not all people who go to buy clubs realize the delofting scheme!

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1388879784' post='8399001']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1388879309' post='8398939']
I agree with what you have said, Kloyd, and also what Mizuno said:
[quote]Mizuno making that comment, believing that venerable Mizuno had no option but to follow suit[/quote]
Can you imagine one manfr sticking to their guns by committing to NOT to deloft their irons? Most golfers, by virture of ego, would probably choose the delofted brand of clubs over the old standard lofts. It would be interesting to hear comments of people in here of what they would choose?
Example: Your friend plays the 'new style' stronger lofted TM's and you play the TM's with weaker lofts. How would you like that?
[/quote]

I couldn't care less. It's a number on a club. At the end of the day all I care about is my score, not how far someone hit an iron shot on a particular hole. Besides, I don't ask, and if someone tells me I'm not really interested.
[/quote]

You are correct - it is just a number on the sole of an iron and a golfer worth his salt is more concerned about what iron to use to achieve a certain shot. Bragging rights along the lines of "who used the most lofted club" are pointless simply because the scoring system of golf is based on the number of strokes, not the distance one can send the ball. In that sense, it is just as well that golf IS so based. If it was only about distance the only game would be long drive competitions.

However, when manufacturers and their marketing departments use distance to sell their product, they are not being truly honest about why one club sends the ball further than another. Loft comparisons, especially with irons, are never used. Manufacturers conveniently forget to use loft numbers but willingly use club numbers (which are all different).

An example: Nickent claimed in their advertising that, in independent testing, their #5 iron was the longest in the industry. What they didn't advertise was that their #5 iron was 23 degrees. This is what I refer to as scamsville.

Unfortunately, many newer or unaware golfers have bought into such claims. The advertising may not be a bold lie but much of it is misleading.

I am very skeptical of golf manufacturers' claims. I have good reason.

[CHARGERS]

I think it was a good call making the std length longer, most fittings back then were plus 1/2 or plus 3/4
And its easier to trim a club length down than to plug it longer
As for lofts, just start the set around 50 deg and call it whatever

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388883409' post='8399345']
My question on the whole matter is this: why was it necessary for the industry to do that in the first place? Was it really a case of market demand, that delusional consumers were looking for irons that play longer than others, or were there legitimate reasons to strengthen lofts (e.g., the golf ball flies farther, thus the necessity to lower the trajectory by de-lofting clubs)?
[/quote]

If you think golf is the only industry where this happens, you just aren't familiar with other industries. Human eyes never will be able to discern the difference in every new advancement in televisions, but they keep putting them out. How important is zero to sixty time for cars? Means nothing to almost every body. Yet, its still a selling point.

Point is, companies are in business to sell stuff. To keep doing that, you gotta try to market a difference from competitors. Happens in any competitive market. Not sure how golf could possibly be different. So, the real question is, how on the world would we not expect it, much less bemoan it?

[Nessism]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388897089' post='8400627']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388883409' post='8399345']
My question on the whole matter is this: why was it necessary for the industry to do that in the first place? Was it really a case of market demand, that delusional consumers were looking for irons that play longer than others, or were there legitimate reasons to strengthen lofts (e.g., the golf ball flies farther, thus the necessity to lower the trajectory by de-lofting clubs)?
[/quote]

If you think golf is the only industry where this happens, you just aren't familiar with other industries. Human eyes never will be able to discern the difference in every new advancement in televisions, but they keep putting them out. How important is zero to sixty time for cars? Means nothing to almost every body. Yet, its still a selling point.

Point is, companies are in business to sell stuff. To keep doing that, you gotta try to market a difference from competitors. Happens in any competitive market. Not sure how golf could possibly be different. So, the real question is, how on the world would we not expect it, much less bemoan it?
[/quote]

You can't lie about 0 to 60 times for a car. But you can trick the consumers about such and such a club being "longer" by jacking the lofts and length.

I'm strongly in the camp of believing the golf club manufacturers are doing the consumers a disservice by jacking the lofts and making clubs longer. They are targeting unknowing consumers, non tech savy folks, and taking advantage of the allure of more distance.

Young people may not give a crap since once you get used to your distances it doesn't really matter, but not everyone enjoys having to relearn their distances with each new club purchase. And people like me that like to switch between old and new clubs, players and GI clubs, need a freaking calculator on the course to figure out how far each club will fly.

My (loosing) vote is for standardization of lofts, or get rid of the number all together. Doubt it will ever happen though.

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388929245' post='8401637']
[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388897089' post='8400627']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388883409' post='8399345']
My question on the whole matter is this: why was it necessary for the industry to do that in the first place? Was it really a case of market demand, that delusional consumers were looking for irons that play longer than others, or were there legitimate reasons to strengthen lofts (e.g., the golf ball flies farther, thus the necessity to lower the trajectory by de-lofting clubs)?
[/quote]

If you think golf is the only industry where this happens, you just aren't familiar with other industries. Human eyes never will be able to discern the difference in every new advancement in televisions, but they keep putting them out. How important is zero to sixty time for cars? Means nothing to almost every body. Yet, its still a selling point.

Point is, companies are in business to sell stuff. To keep doing that, you gotta try to market a difference from competitors. Happens in any competitive market. Not sure how golf could possibly be different. So, the real question is, how on the world would we not expect it, much less bemoan it?
[/quote]

You can't lie about 0 to 60 times for a car. But you can trick the consumers about such and such a club being "longer" by jacking the lofts and length.

I'm strongly in the camp of believing the golf club manufacturers are doing the consumers a disservice by jacking the lofts and making clubs longer. They are targeting unknowing consumers, non tech savy folks, and taking advantage of the allure of more distance.

Young people may not give a crap since once you get used to your distances it doesn't really matter, but not everyone enjoys having to relearn their distances with each new club purchase. And people like me that like to switch between old and new clubs, players and GI clubs, need a freaking calculator on the course to figure out how far each club will fly.

My (loosing) vote is for standardization of lofts, or get rid of the number all together. Doubt it will ever happen though.
[/quote]

You think companies should either willingly or by force forsake their marketing strategies that are not illegal?

[Nessism]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388930360' post='8401681']
You think companies should either willingly or by force forsake their marketing strategies that are not illegal?
[/quote]

There are various laws against fraudulent advertising. In my opinion a case could be made that jacking lofts/length is fraudulent if the claim is that clubs are "longer". I'm sure the various club manufacturers would find some technicality to dodge the assertion though. Claiming their clubs reduce spin by 2%, thus increasing distance regardless of the loft jacking. Whatever.

[WilCox]

Stronger lofted irons gave birth to the gap wedge and made the 3-iron near extinct. All a 40-42 degree "pitching wedge" will do is give birth to yet another wedge needed to fill another gap. Buying a wedge because I prefer a specific type is one thing, but buying a wedge because I have to is another.

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388930806' post='8401711']
[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388930360' post='8401681']
You think companies should either willingly or by force forsake their marketing strategies that are not illegal?
[/quote]

There are various laws against fraudulent advertising. In my opinion a case could be made that jacking lofts/length is fraudulent if the claim is that clubs are "longer". I'm sure the various club manufacturers would find some technicality to dodge the assertion though. Claiming their clubs reduce spin by 2%, thus increasing distance regardless of the loft jacking. Whatever.
[/quote]

Thread has now jumped the shark. Now we think it may actually be unlawful what they are doing with the combination of number stamps and lofts?

Cripes

[EmperorPenguin]

Miura does not strengthen their lofts. I checked out my buddy's Tournament Blades and at address they looked like the lofts I am familiar with (early 90's era). Their website confirms it, with the PW at 48 degrees but the 2 iron is 19 degrees. The 9 is 43, with 4-degree increments to the 5 at 27, then 3-degree increments to the 3 at 21, then 2 degrees to the 2. The 2 is a 1.5 iron, but I am fine with that.

Miura irons are among the most desired and coveted, but apparently Mr. Miura knows that we are not that stupid, so he chose not to embarrass himself or his family. Or could it be the case that he understands that the highly-skilled golfers who seek his clubs don't buy into the B.S. of stronger lofts?

In that connection, shame goes to the industry for shamelessly misleading naive, less-skilled golfers.

[Nessism]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388934528' post='8401929']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1388930806' post='8401711']
[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1388930360' post='8401681']
You think companies should either willingly or by force forsake their marketing strategies that are not illegal?
[/quote]

There are various laws against fraudulent advertising. In my opinion a case could be made that jacking lofts/length is fraudulent if the claim is that clubs are "longer". I'm sure the various club manufacturers would find some technicality to dodge the assertion though. Claiming their clubs reduce spin by 2%, thus increasing distance regardless of the loft jacking. Whatever.
[/quote]

Thread has now jumped the shark. Now we think it may actually be unlawful what they are doing with the combination of number stamps and lofts?

Cripes
[/quote]

Damn straight!

Idiot marketing people at big OEM club manufacturers lying to people.

[BillyZ2]

lw
sw
gw
1w
2w
3w
4w
5w
6w
7w
5hybrid
3hybrid
driver
putter

[Fade]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1388967629' post='8404771']
lw
sw
gw
1w
2w
3w
4w
5w
6w
7w
5hybrid
3hybrid
driver
putter
[/quote]

Now if you could flip the wedge-numbering, we might have a chance at getting back to normal.

[nbg352]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1388883698' post='8399377']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1388882685' post='8399277']C'mon...are your egos that fragile? :-)[/quote]
If golfers are actually buying the stronger clubs, that may be the case. If golfers altogether were as sensible as most of us on GolfWrx, the clubs would not sell, and manufacturers would go back to selling standard lofts.
[/quote]
I'd say that the overwhelming majority of golfers play what I'll refer to as modern lofts. Those lofts are attached to clubs designed to get the ball into the air more readily than the clubs you insist that we all should be playing. There are many reasons for them doing so. The biggest one i can think of is the fun factor. They want to have fun. While you are so busy wondering why the guy beside you is playing a 44* wedge, he is having fun. Like you, the guy with the puffed out chest and largely outdated but [i]Oh So Traditional [/i]irons modestly lofted from yesteryear doesn't have time for fun. His time is filled worrying that TM and others like them are ruining a game that has constantly changed since it's beginnings and always will. Time for that guy to enjoy the ride of change. Heck, he might even have fun.
I don't have a clue why it is so important for some folks to insist that the type of clubs they play is better for everyone around them. Clearly, blades with soft lofts are not better. If they were, most people would be playing them They aren't .

[BillyZ2]

lw
sw
gw
pw
9w
8w
7w
6w
5w
4w
5hybrid
3hybrid
driver
putter

Is that better?

[EmperorPenguin]

I am reviving this thread because I am wondering if the industry has jacked up the lengths and lofts again. So far, the strongest pitching wedge I've seen is a Cobra at 43 degrees. Also, there is a lovely chart illustrating the evolution of lofts in today's equipment, but the update was as of 2010. It is 2020 now, and I am curious to what the industry has done as of late.

For the full article:

leaderboard.com/loftinfo.htm

[Skhacker]

This is why I just write my carry distances on the irons with a fine sharpie. Can barely see it and don't have to second guess.

[Nels55]

Well, a lot of folks call their wedges by the loft as in "That was my 52, I should have hit the 56". So maybe when the gap wedge gets to 19 degrees there will be no need for numbers anymore.

[BiggErn]

It’s completely asinine that people continuously cry about club lofts. If you don’t know what you’re buying it’s on you.

[DLiver]

Very interesting article--thanks for posting it. One thing that people don't mention much is how the size of head of irons have increased. My old Apex II 2-iron used to be this itty bitty thing. Anyway, back to your question, a quick check of a couple manufacturers' "standard" CB irons shows PW loft to be 43º-44º. Not much change in the last ten years apparently.

[Z1ggy16]

I don't get ppls obsession over what the number on the club says. It's a metal thing that you use, to hit the ball a certain distance. Why the heck does the loft matter? If it's stamped 7i but it has 25* loft. .. We all know it's basically a 5i, and will go a 5i distance.

Ppl are fixated on what OEMs stamp on the bottom of the club. Seems like mostly the older generation too... Same ones who want to roll the ball back.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

It's a marketing scam. Then the gullible will say, "dude these new irons are amazing, I can hit my 8 iron as far as the 6 iron from my old set!" Then gullible dude number 2 goes out and spends his hard earned money on new irons!

[Titleist_PT23]

Who cares? I need irons from say 24 degrees to 50 degrees. For some reason, people think it's great to play old school lofts (associated with a number) and think it makes them a better player. If Tiger switched the numbers on his clubs from 3 - PW to 4 - GW, would it matter? It's the same thing about a set GW and all the bashing that you can't do this or that with it. It's basically an old PW and most people were fine with a "set PW" back then.

[BiggErn]

Hardly a scam since every OEM lists the specs of every iron they make.

[dlygrisse]

I want to which someone with my mashie niblick! This is driving me crazy!

[EmperorPenguin]

I notice that fewer people are not asking, "What club did you use?" but instead, "How far did you play that shot?"

I started playing golf about 1990, which I think was the first bump (PW was 48 degrees). Should have kept it there. I think Callaway was the culprit who started it all. Their first Big Bertha Irons had standard lofts, and club companies started jacking up the lofts and that started the domino tumble.

It appears the industry has reached its limit because lofts now are already on the absurdity range. Come on, guys, I want to see a 40-degree pitching wedge!

[BiggErn]

As long as someone knows how far they hit that 40* PW what does it matter.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Not legally a scam and what you say is true, but a marketing scam. They know they can influence uninformed consumers to part with their money.

[Titleist_PT23]

Just pretend the T400 5-W2 is 3-PW. Get a sharpie if needed. Problem solved.

[SubaruWRX]

 

Next year, TaylorMade is releasing an M1 heritage set starting with this 12 degree Pitching Wedge.