The Only Realistic Solution For Whiners Of Slow Pace Of Play

[EmperorPenguin]

Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes. You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.

[mark m]

My course has a tee time policy where you book your tee time for the [u]season[/u]. The faster Men's Club players dominate this bunch of tee times in the morning (6:30-8:15) on Sat & Sun and most rounds take 4:00. Sometimes a little faster. Rarely slower than 4:20. And 5-somes are allowed. Great for the course and the players (win-win).

General public types can get the later tee times. We've had college tournament out there in the afternoons that can take 5-6 hrs. I don't get it.

[farmer]

Where I live and play, slow play is usually not a problem. Very small club, not that many players. From reading here, slow play is a major issue that seems to be more an issue on muni's than on private clubs, and weekends more than during the week. People should play faster and get around faster, no question. However, weekends are going to be the time when the very casual golfer goes out. If you have a foursome of old college buds playing, and they are all shooting around 100, that's just going to take a lot of time. For this one group, that's 400+ shots, plus finding the balls, getting from one place to another, then having a beer or two. If this group does all the fast play tips, that's still a lot of time. There will be more than one of these groups, from what I've seen, and each one exacerbates the problem. If you're going to play a popular muni on the weekend, accept that it's going to be slow and live with it.

[QMany]

Only realistic solution?

[rsj1360]

[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1389206090' post='8422989']
Only realistic solution?
[/quote]

I believe he is being facetious.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play
[/quote]

no it's not.

[MiniJ83]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1389207070' post='8423077']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play
[/quote]

no it's not.
[/quote]

I think futile is a good word for it.

We can't even get people to keep their cellphones in their pockets for an entire movie. It used to really frustrate me. But now when it inevitably happens a dozen times every film, I take a deep breath , and go back to watching the movie. Nothing I can do to change other people, just how I react to them.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='MiniJ83' timestamp='1389210069' post='8423425']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1389207070' post='8423077']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play
[/quote]

no it's not.
[/quote]

I think futile is a good word for it.

We can't even get people to keep their cellphones in their pockets for an entire movie. It used to really frustrate me. But now when it inevitably happens a dozen times every film, I take a deep breath , and go back to watching the movie. Nothing I can do to change other people, just how I react to them.
[/quote]

i mean, i obviously get what you both are saying. i just don't think we should give up.

[MiniJ83]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1389211911' post='8423655']
[quote name='MiniJ83' timestamp='1389210069' post='8423425']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1389207070' post='8423077']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play
[/quote]

no it's not.
[/quote]

I think futile is a good word for it.

We can't even get people to keep their cellphones in their pockets for an entire movie. It used to really frustrate me. But now when it inevitably happens a dozen times every film, I take a deep breath , and go back to watching the movie. Nothing I can do to change other people, just how I react to them.
[/quote]

i mean, i obviously get what you both are saying. i just don't think we should give up.
[/quote]

And I agree with you as well.

I've just grown to accept it, and choose to not let it affect me. No ones gonna ruin my day on the course!

[HighSpeedScene]

Big difference between not letting it affect you and stridently advocating for change. They are not mutually exclusive. Ive put up good numbers in 6 hour rounds and 3 hour rounds - in fact, there isn't much of a correlation there for me. Couldn't have played college golf if it affected my scores.

But that doesn't make accepting a round over 4 hours ok. Its just ridiculous for it to take that long.

[mr_divots]

I'd just yell at the guys cutting the greens to hurry up then. ;o)

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1389220193' post='8424493']
Big difference between not letting it affect you and stridently advocating for change. They are not mutually exclusive. Ive put up good numbers in 6 hour rounds and 3 hour rounds - in fact, there isn't much of a correlation there for me. Couldn't have played college golf if it affected my scores.

But that doesn't make accepting a round over 4 hours ok. Its just ridiculous for it to take that long.
[/quote]

Not letting it effect you [u]is[/u] mutually exclusive from stridently advocating for change -- unless you'd be stridently advocating for change even if there were no problem to begin with. While you're being strident, you're being different, hence the proof that it has effected you, no?

I always hate myself when I participate in slow play threads, but my solution to the slow play problem has been to deciding not to care. It most often works. Every now and then . . . not so much. (I'm still looking for a solution to the problem of my being imperfect.)

[Sean2]

Yeah, but all of you advocating for increasing the pace of play are preaching to the choir. The people who need to hear it are probably not members of GolfWRX.

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389224808' post='8424857']
Yeah, but all of you advocating for increasing the pace of play are preaching to the choir. The people who need to hear it are probably not members of GolfWRX.
[/quote]

Other such threads indicate that they are out there, and that they are incredibly dumb.

[highergr0und]

Lol, I used to play before the tee times even started. Leave the house when it was still dark. Tying my shoes in the parking lot as it got light enough to see the ball. I miss that and might try to talk the local course here into letting me do it. Just pay at the turn and push my clicgear

[rsj1360]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1389230942' post='8425367']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389224808' post='8424857']
Yeah, but all of you advocating for increasing the pace of play are preaching to the choir. The people who need to hear it are probably not members of GolfWRX.
[/quote]

Other such threads indicate that they are out there, and that they are incredibly dumb.
[/quote]

Now there's an incredibly insightful and intelligent comment for ya.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?

[rsj1360]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because not everyone is the same, comrade.

[DavePelz4]

Well then I am very blessed to play with a group of comrades who make every conceivable effort to keep up with the group in front of us.

And in the event that the group in front of us is not keeping pace with the group in front of them, I'll graciously ask to play through. I'm sure they will graciously let us play through. In the highly unlikely event that they graciously decline our gracious request I will graciously call the pro shop and have the ranger graciously ask them to get back on pace or let us play through. Graciously, of course.

[rsj1360]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389282188' post='8427897']
Well then I am very blessed to play with a group of comrades who make every conceivable effort to keep up with the group in front of us.

And in the event that the group in front of us is not keeping pace with the group in front of them, I'll graciously ask to play through. I'm sure they will graciously let us play through. In the highly unlikely event that they graciously decline our gracious request I will graciously call the pro shop and have the ranger graciously ask them to get back on pace or let us play through. Graciously, of course.
[/quote]

Well goodness gracious!

[mr_divots]

[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389280817' post='8427713']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because not everyone is the same, comrade.
[/quote]
Please use your own sources, namely the Course Pace paper you yourself posted, that pretty well states that player ability is the least of the factors concerning pace of play. This seems to be the answer you are now falling back on, and it isn't valid per your own sources.

[rsj1360]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1389290417' post='8428809']
[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389280817' post='8427713']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because not everyone is the same, comrade.
[/quote]
Please use your own sources, namely the Course Pace paper you yourself posted, that pretty well states that player ability is the least of the factors concerning pace of play. This seems to be the answer you are now falling back on, and it isn't valid per your own sources.
[/quote]

I've consistently said all along, even before I discovered the paper I posted, that the number one reason for slow play is course over crowding. But I also have consistently said that different players will play at different speed, even when doing everything "right" for a myriad of reasons. The paper I posted does not disprove that. Just because the paper says that payer ability is of lesser importance does not mean that importance is zero. Holding everything else equal if Group A tees off as the first group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 300 shots between them and Group B tees off as the second group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 420 shots between them then there is no way to say that both groups will finish in the same elapsed time. That makes zero sense.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because they won't necessarily play EVERY hole the same speed. Group 1 may lose a ball on the 5th hole, causing Group 2 to have to wait a couple minutes on the tee. Group 2 may have to spend a little hunting time on hole #7, etc. It trickles back through the course, and the following groups don't have the same ability to make up lost time as the first group.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

Yet another pace of play topic. Color me excited.

That said, I think it's futile to suggest there is only one "realistic" solution to the stated problem. How can it be a realistic solution if only a few of the people could actually employ it? Pace of play is an "everyone" problem, yet the proposed solution would only involve a very small percentage of the population.

There are other realistic solutions to this issue and many of them have been already proposed. IMO, the real issue is finding people with the resources and will power to make them happen. If I can get middle school/high school kids to play 9 holes in 2 hours or less, I firmly believe the problem can be solved.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1389293043' post='8429089']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because they won't necessarily play EVERY hole the same speed. Group 1 may lose a ball on the 5th hole, causing Group 2 to have to wait a couple minutes on the tee. Group 2 may have to spend a little hunting time on hole #7, etc. It trickles back through the course, and the following groups don't have the same ability to make up lost time as the first group.
[/quote]

Agree with you completely which is why I went with the overall round vs any individual hole.

[rsj1360]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1389295420' post='8429361']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

Yet another pace of play topic. Color me excited.

That said, I think it's futile to suggest there is only one "realistic" solution to the stated problem. How can it be a realistic solution if only a few of the people could actually employ it? Pace of play is an "everyone" problem, yet the proposed solution would only involve a very small percentage of the population.

There are other realistic solutions to this issue and many of them have been already proposed. IMO, the real issue is finding people with the resources and will power to make them happen. If I can get middle school/high school kids to play 9 holes in 2 hours or less, I firmly believe the problem can be solved.
[/quote]
[color=#282828]I believe he is being facetious.[/color]

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389291618' post='8428915']
I've consistently said all along, even before I discovered the paper I posted, that the number one reason for slow play is course over crowding. But I also have consistently said that different players will play at different speed, even when doing everything "right" for a myriad of reasons. The paper I posted does not disprove that. Just because the paper says that payer ability is of lesser importance does not mean that importance is zero. Holding everything else equal if Group A tees off as the first group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 300 shots between them and Group B tees off as the second group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 420 shots between them then there is no way to say that both groups will finish in the same elapsed time. That makes zero sense.
[/quote]

We played Erin Hills last summer. The range in the handicaps of our foursome is from 7-15 and in aggregate, we had well over 400 strokes. Erin Hills has either 10 or 12 minute tee times...I apologize for not remembering exactly but it's at least 10 minutes. Starting on the 4th hole, we had to wait. Our caddie knew the group of local players in front of us and said they were all sub 5 handicaps who were just very slow players.

I don't think the course was overcrowded. The group in front of us was clearly better players but they just play slow.

Of his own volition, a ranger went to them and told them they were behind. They started to play faster. Three holes later we were waiting on them again. The ranger was watching them and again suggested they focus on pace. The course pace of play is 4.5 hours as it is a 7-11 mile walk, dependent on tees played. Our round was 6.5 hours. YIKES.

Ability is a factor in pace but it's not the biggest cause. Crowded courses with 7 minute or less tee times can be a problem but those with 8-10 minute plus tee times are not causing problem. IMHO, putting focus on playing on pace is the most important thing players can do.

[rsj1360]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389296914' post='8429555']
[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389291618' post='8428915']
I've consistently said all along, even before I discovered the paper I posted, that the number one reason for slow play is course over crowding. But I also have consistently said that different players will play at different speed, even when doing everything "right" for a myriad of reasons. The paper I posted does not disprove that. Just because the paper says that payer ability is of lesser importance does not mean that importance is zero. Holding everything else equal if Group A tees off as the first group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 300 shots between them and Group B tees off as the second group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 420 shots between them then there is no way to say that both groups will finish in the same elapsed time. That makes zero sense.
[/quote]

We played Erin Hills last summer. The range in the handicaps of our foursome is from 7-15 and in aggregate, we had well over 400 strokes. Erin Hills has either 10 or 12 minute tee times...I apologize for not remembering exactly but it's at least 10 minutes. Starting on the 4th hole, we had to wait. Our caddie knew the group of local players in front of us and said they were all sub 5 handicaps who were just very slow players.

I don't think the course was overcrowded. The group in front of us was clearly better players but they just play slow.

Of his own volition, a ranger went to them and told them they were behind. They started to play faster. Three holes later we were waiting on them again. The ranger was watching them and again suggested they focus on pace. The course pace of play is 4.5 hours as it is a 7-11 mile walk, dependent on tees played. Our round was 6.5 hours. YIKES.

Ability is a factor in pace but it's not the biggest cause. Crowded courses with 7 minute or less tee times can be a problem but those with 8-10 minute plus tee times are not causing problem. IMHO, putting focus on playing on pace is the most important thing players can do.
[/quote]
Well that is about as extreme of an example as could possibly be posted. I just looked at the website for [color="#282828"]Erin Hills and it is a walking only course with caddies suggested. Did the group in front have caddies, out of curiosity? I can't even imagine how that is humanly possible. But - and don't take this as making excuses for them - do you think if they tried as hard as they could, and still played to their handicaps, that they would be able to take three full hours off their playing time? [/color]

I can only remember one round over 5:30 in the past 20 years.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389298667' post='8429721']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389296914' post='8429555']
[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389291618' post='8428915']
I've consistently said all along, even before I discovered the paper I posted, that the number one reason for slow play is course over crowding. But I also have consistently said that different players will play at different speed, even when doing everything "right" for a myriad of reasons. The paper I posted does not disprove that. Just because the paper says that payer ability is of lesser importance does not mean that importance is zero. Holding everything else equal if Group A tees off as the first group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 300 shots between them and Group B tees off as the second group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 420 shots between them then there is no way to say that both groups will finish in the same elapsed time. That makes zero sense.
[/quote]

We played Erin Hills last summer. The range in the handicaps of our foursome is from 7-15 and in aggregate, we had well over 400 strokes. Erin Hills has either 10 or 12 minute tee times...I apologize for not remembering exactly but it's at least 10 minutes. Starting on the 4th hole, we had to wait. Our caddie knew the group of local players in front of us and said they were all sub 5 handicaps who were just very slow players.

I don't think the course was overcrowded. The group in front of us was clearly better players but they just play slow.

Of his own volition, a ranger went to them and told them they were behind. They started to play faster. Three holes later we were waiting on them again. The ranger was watching them and again suggested they focus on pace. The course pace of play is 4.5 hours as it is a 7-11 mile walk, dependent on tees played. Our round was 6.5 hours. YIKES.

Ability is a factor in pace but it's not the biggest cause. Crowded courses with 7 minute or less tee times can be a problem but those with 8-10 minute plus tee times are not causing problem. IMHO, putting focus on playing on pace is the most important thing players can do.
[/quote]
Well that is about as extreme of an example as could possibly be posted. I just looked at the website for [color=#282828]Erin Hills and it is a walking only course with caddies suggested. Did the group in front have caddies, out of curiosity? I can't even imagine how that is humanly possible. But - and don't take this as making excuses for them - do you think if they tried as hard as they could, and still played to their handicaps, that they would be able to take three full hours off their playing time? [/color]

I can only remember one round over 5:30 in the past 20 years.
[/quote]

A couple of things. They had caddies as did we and the caddies carried two bags . How each group used the caddies was very different. They would hit one ball, go to the next, and the same thing would be done with the other caddie. The caddie that I shared would go to the first ball and the other guy would take a couple of clubs with their GPS, go to their ball and get ready to play. We didn't wait to walk to and then line up the next ball. Over 18 holes, that makes a huge difference.

With the length of the course and the up and down nature, it's not possible to walk it in 3.5 hours so no, they couldn't have taken 3 hours off. Is it possible to walk that course in 4.5 hours, absolutely.

My fear rsj is this isn't the extreme example but one that is very common, adjusted by course distances, etc. We play a 7 mile course in Illinois that has minimal hills, etc and with stopping for a bio break between 9's, we can still finish in just over 4 hours. Without being self-serving or trying to appear "better than thou" we gab like high school girls walking down the fairway but we all go to our own next shot or find our ball as appropriate. If someone needs help finding a wayward ball, the 1 closest person helps and the two others will go play ready golf.

The one other big variable is that we walk. In the very rare cases where we are forced to ride, we go to the closest ball for each cart and the other guy grabs a couple of clubs, their GPS and gets ready to play. It truly makes a difference.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389291618' post='8428915']
[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1389290417' post='8428809']
[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1389280817' post='8427713']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1389280422' post='8427677']
[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1389199818' post='8422327']
Slow play will always be an issue, especially when golf courses are crowded. It is absolutely futile to coerce a nation of slow players to speed up their play, so for those whiners who complain about them, give up and adopt this very simple solution: [b]always insist on booking the first starting time of the day, no matter what it takes.[/b] You will not have to worry about slow players ahead of you, nor will they have to tolerate your useless tirades because by starting at dawn patrol you will be finished so early, neither of you will see each other, so this solution would be mutually beneficial. Complaining about slow pace of play while at the same time booking a starting time at the later part of the day's tee sheet would be senseless, and those who do have themselves to blame for not booking for first off. Sure, many of us have lives and would like to have our Sunday morning pancakes with our family, or simply do not want to wake up at 0430A to play so early, but those who make other plans for the morning are in no position to complain about slow play at a crowded golf course because the opportunity to play faster--and I mean much faster--was passed. Want to have your cake and eat it, too? The only solution in that case would be to build your own golf course. Several guys have done it, but most of us lack the resources to afford that, so the only other solution would be to book the first starting time to avoid playing behind anyone who may play slowly.
[/quote]

OK...I'll play. Conversationally, if the first foursome of the day finishes in 4 hours, assuming the course is about 5 miles in aggregate length, why can't every subsequent group finish in 4 hours?
[/quote]

Because not everyone is the same, comrade.
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Please use your own sources, namely the Course Pace paper you yourself posted, that pretty well states that player ability is the least of the factors concerning pace of play. This seems to be the answer you are now falling back on, and it isn't valid per your own sources.
[/quote]

I've consistently said all along, even before I discovered the paper I posted, that the number one reason for slow play is course over crowding. But I also have consistently said that different players will play at different speed, even when doing everything "right" for a myriad of reasons. The paper I posted does not disprove that. Just because the paper says that payer ability is of lesser importance does not mean that importance is zero. Holding everything else equal if Group A tees off as the first group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 300 shots between them and Group B tees off as the second group in the morning and ends up hitting a total of 420 shots between them then there is no way to say that both groups will finish in the same elapsed time. That makes zero sense.
[/quote]
You just seem to fail to comprehend [u]the # of strokes you take does not dictate how long the round will take[/u]. You can be a "bad golfer" and play quickly. Anyone who plays ready golf is welcome to play with me, and yes, we will finish in 4 hours or less please and thank you. Its so easy, I could literally sleep walk and do it. Any talk to the contrary ignores the basic reality that it is indeed possible and that anyone can do it regardless if they are a +1 handicap or a 20 handicap. Again, if one doesn't know how it is feasible, they should ASK and OBSERVE, rather than covering their eyes and plugging their ears and crying its "too fast!" So once again, if you or anyone else has any questions about how this is entirely possible, there seems to be no lack of people who understand and can help you.

I believe it was Sam Snead whose mantra was: "Miss it Quickly." If I ever get anything embroidered on a golf bag, THAT will be it.