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Following Rules

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  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties. It is just the way it is, you might not agree but that is reality since kids age from 6 - 12 yr and the organization or the local tour director does not expect them to strictly follow USGA rules (i.e. parents keeping score or assessing penalties) , the email is a classic canned response from the organization wants nothing to do with this topic for forum. Honestly, I do not blame them, who wants to get into a heated discussion with a bunch of jr golfer parents that is of little consequence.

    I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing, honest mistakes like picking up the ball from the fringe for a first timer do happen, maybe he thought it was green and was tightly cut. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.

    This is kid golf, he is a first timer and nothing that he did gave him an unfair advantage on the field. I would love to know what the kid shot on the round? You already told us he was not going to place, so what did he get on that hole. I am going to guess he was lying 3 or 4 and ended up with a double or triple on the hole. I am assuming he is not a player so it is okay to teach on the course! That is all.

    On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    Seriously, what do you say to that?

    I say it is a potentially sticky situation that illustrates the inherent flaws in the USKG system - which is a total joke, after all. I also detect a bit of prejudice concerning people from Florida who hunt and are partial to camouflage clothing. Despite the news reports, many of them are fine, reasonable, people you know. :D

    Ultimately, the camoed Floridian in this situation is effectively taking a DQ. I would probably have my kid make a note of it on the scorecard, and then let the USKG people sort it out. That's what the entry fees are for.

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  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jholz said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    Seriously, what do you say to that?

    I also detect a bit of prejudice concerning people from Florida who hunt and are partial to camouflage clothing. Despite the news reports, many of them are fine, reasonable, people you know. :D

    Those people are my friend's. LOL.... I am in Florida. Just not bringing my camo clothes to the course. Have brought my gun to the course.... lol

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @kcap said:

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties. It is just the way it is, you might not agree but that is reality since kids age from 6 - 12 yr and the organization or the local tour director does not expect them to strictly follow USGA rules (i.e. parents keeping score or assessing penalties) , the email is a classic canned response from the organization wants nothing to do with this topic for forum. Honestly, I do not blame them, who wants to get into a heated discussion with a bunch of jr golfer parents that is of little consequence.

    I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing, honest mistakes like picking up the ball from the fringe for a first timer do happen, maybe he thought it was green and was tightly cut. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.

    This is kid golf, he is a first timer and nothing that he did gave him an unfair advantage on the field. I would love to know what the kid shot on the round? You already told us he was not going to place, so what did he get on that hole. I am going to guess he was lying 3 or 4 and ended up with a double or triple on the hole. I am assuming he is not a player so it is okay to teach on the course! That is all.

    On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

    Playing by the rules is one of the fundamentals of this discussion. The rules need to be followed and the kids need to be taught the rules properly. Part of the rules though is who can assess a penalty. If we're going to use the premise of teaching the rules then all the rules need to apply. We can only go by what the OP shared and it certainly appears that unilaterally, he decided and then announced his decision to assess a penalty, which the player's Dad got upset about. If they had a conversation and agreed on the penalty fine. If he stated they had a conversation and disagreed so he wrote down the score the player told him but then said to the Dad, let's let the TD figure it out, fine.

    It was also concerning in the OP's post that he commented that the player wasn't going to contend in the event and that he didn't care about it being uncomfortable for 18 holes. These are kids and why make any or all of them uncomfortable for something that should be fun? BTW, if the OP and the Dad had a pleasant conversation, why would it be uncomfortable for 18 holes?

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 12, 2019 1:13am #96

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    ** Seriously, what do you say to that?**

    I would tell him if his son writes down 10, then he must be a sandbagger and maybe there should be an *** kicking rather than an *** kissing. (;

    Post edited by 2bGood on
  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 8:01pm #97

    I didn't clarify or go into the details of the exchange and sequencing, because after reading the responses, to me it was irrelevant. I was okay at the situation in the most negative light toward me because it was a fundamental issue I had with the dad's response. His son was not awful (just knew he wasn't going to not place based on the field) and, regardless, it didn't matter. I just thought it interesting that he thought it was okay for his son not to take a penalty because it was his first tournament. Clearly, I'm in the minority and that answered my question.

    I guess for me, when my son was starting out and he missed the ball on a swing, I asked him whether he intended to hit it. Kids at that age don't lie when they have no clue what the ramification of the response is (in this case, he had no idea it would cost him a stroke). I used it as a teaching moment and explained that golf was the only sport that was self-governed and through the years, I explained that he'll sleep better at night if he protects the field and is honest about his strokes; that to me was more important than posting a score or telling him don't worry about the mistake because it didn't improve his lie or next shot and, therefore, it was an honest mistake so no penalty needed. In fact, we watched what Rory did at the recent Northern Trust and how he thought he was moving a loose impediment in the bunker that ended up being a clump of sand and was initially given a stroke penalty (and no, I'm not comparing USKG to the PGA so let's not get in discussion about how they're playing to pay for a mortgage....)

    The responses tell me that a number of people on this golf-obsessed forum, which must translate to a number of people that aren't on this forum, take one of two approaches: 1. Use it as a teaching moment to explain the rules, give the competitor a pass, and let them understand that in the future, they will be penalized; or 2. take into consideration their level of skill and whether the infraction has any impact on protecting the top half or so of the field (this is my assumption, so feel free to correct me).

    I guess my question for the two points above: why wouldn't the dad assess the penalty and use it as a teaching moment? What is the benefit of not taking the stroke? The exact conversation was that my son called out his score and the kid's in question since we were marking that kid. The dad said no, I had ____ for my son. I said, what about the stroke for not playing the ball as it lies? His response was - are you kidding me, I'm not giving him a penalty for that. It's his first tournament. And for the second point, is that what we are teaching our junior golfers? To make an assessment of their playing partners and apply the rules accordingly? To assess their own skill level and if they're not going to medal, not to take penalties because it's irrelevant?

    I'm not trying to sugar coat the conversation. That's why I kept saying it wasn't as confrontational as people think. But then I chose to run with it because to me the way the penalty was assessed by the marker is irrelevant for purposes of my topic.

    So I guess we have some parents that teach their child from a young age to be mindful of skill level and ignore penalties that are irrelevant to placement. You guys can't see that becoming a slippery slope? And to all those that keep saying let kids be kids, these tourneys mean nothing -- isn't the rules of golf one of the most fundamental things we need to instill in our junior golfers?

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 8:08pm #98

    Reading this thread I think a lot people get off track yellowlover did nothing wrong here. The rule is obvious and nothing wrong with enforcing it no matter how well the kid played.

    Like most people I get tired of having unpleasant 18 holes because they didn’t want to follow or bend the rules. The result is I become accustomed to just warn them a lot and let it slide to play a peaceful round. I shouldn’t do that because some those kids came in the top 10 at US Kids this year and I know they cheat. Next time I see them they are just going to gloat too. no one likes them but there still successfully because they make it unpleasant to argue. I don’t for minute think they didn’t pull the same crap in worlds.

    Letting it slide is what they count on. Where do you draw the line. As a parent if I don’t know the rule and I find out I am wrong i am usually happy I found out about it. Most honest people do the same thing. The ones who like to break rules almost always make it unpleasant tell to bring up but are almost always quick to call another player out.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    Seriously, what do you say to that?

    You say, 'why don't you set a good example for your kid and play by the rules'.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kcap said:

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties. It is just the way it is, you might not agree but that is reality since kids age from 6 - 12 yr and the organization or the local tour director does not expect them to strictly follow USGA rules (i.e. parents keeping score or assessing penalties) , the email is a classic canned response from the organization wants nothing to do with this topic for forum. Honestly, I do not blame them, who wants to get into a heated discussion with a bunch of jr golfer parents that is of little consequence.

    I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing, honest mistakes like picking up the ball from the fringe for a first timer do happen, maybe he thought it was green and was tightly cut. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.

    This is kid golf, he is a first timer and nothing that he did gave him an unfair advantage on the field. I would love to know what the kid shot on the round? You already told us he was not going to place, so what did he get on that hole. I am going to guess he was lying 3 or 4 and ended up with a double or triple on the hole. I am assuming he is not a player so it is okay to teach on the course! That is all.

    On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

    Playing by the rules is one of the fundamentals of this discussion. The rules need to be followed and the kids need to be taught the rules properly. Part of the rules though is who can assess a penalty. If we're going to use the premise of teaching the rules then all the rules need to apply. We can only go by what the OP shared and it certainly appears that unilaterally, he decided and then announced his decision to assess a penalty, which the player's Dad got upset about. If they had a conversation and agreed on the penalty fine. If he stated they had a conversation and disagreed so he wrote down the score the player told him but then said to the Dad, let's let the TD figure it out, fine.

    It was also concerning in the OP's post that he commented that the player wasn't going to contend in the event and that he didn't care about it being uncomfortable for 18 holes. These are kids and why make any or all of them uncomfortable for something that should be fun? BTW, if the OP and the Dad had a pleasant conversation, why would it be uncomfortable for 18 holes?

    And this is why I kept asking for your experience. AT USKG, EVEN WORLD'S, parents discuss scores and penalties. Parents ask each other if something was a pitch mark or a spike mark (previous rules). That is the role of the parent caddie in every USKG event I've been to. That is what #4 means in the USKG guidelines. Now do you get why I kept coming at you for trying to cop-out or having a fixation off-topic. Because that's what it keeps seeming like when you don't understand the USKG caddie role at tournaments.
    The dad was upset that his kid had to take a score (or he would have to explain it at the scorer's table as I suggested). He wasn't upset at the way I spoke to him about the score. And even if he was, to me that's IRRELEVANT for purposes of this topic. I would rather my son call out an incorrect score even if it's completely uncomfortable. Not to be scared to do what's right or avoid an uncomfortable situation. I don't care if he's playing with 16-year olds at a MET event - he needs to man up and do what's right. So add something to the topic - pretend I was the biggest **** and justify why it would have been okay to teach my son not to assess a penalty in that situation?

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 8:38pm #101

    Actually - this is my experience at IMG World's and Callaway World's too. So it's not a USKG thing. I get your fixation - you think I was just a spectator at a local PGA event or AJGA event. Even our local PGA section has parent chaperones that take scores down and enforce penalties (but I get it, you're going to tell me they are an official scorer so it's okay). 12u golf is entirely different.

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @yellowlover519 said:

    The responses tell me that a number of people on this golf-obsessed forum, which must translate to a number of people that aren't on this forum, take one of two approaches: 1. Use it as a teaching moment to explain the rules, give the competitor a pass, and let them understand that in the future, they will be penalized; or 2. take into consideration their level of skill and whether the infraction has any impact on protecting the top half or so of the field (this is my assumption, so feel free to correct me).

    I guess my question for the two points above: why wouldn't the dad assess the penalty and use it as a teaching moment? What is the benefit of not taking the stroke? The exact conversation was that my son called out his score and the kid's in question since we were marking that kid. The dad said no, I had ____ for my son. I said, what about the stroke for not playing the ball as it lies? His response was - are you kidding me, I'm not giving him a penalty for that. It's his first tournament. And for the second point, is that what we are teaching our junior golfers? To make an assessment of their playing partners and apply the rules accordingly? To assess their own skill level and if they're not going to medal, not to take penalties because it's irrelevant?

    I'm not trying to sugar coat the conversation. That's why I kept saying it wasn't as confrontational as people think. But then I chose to run with it because to me the way the penalty was assessed by the marker is irrelevant for purposes of my topic.

    So I guess we have some parents that teach their child from a young age to be mindful of skill level and ignore penalties that are irrelevant to placement. You guys can't see that becoming a slippery slope? And to all those that keep saying let kids be kids, these tourneys mean nothing -- isn't the rules of golf one of the most fundamental things we need to instill in our junior golfers?

    @yellowlover519 said:
    I didn't clarify or go into the details of the exchange and sequencing, because after reading the responses, to me it was irrelevant. I was okay at the situation in the most negative light toward me because it was a fundamental issue I had with the dad's response. His son was not awful (just knew he wasn't going to not place based on the field) and, regardless, it didn't matter. I just thought it interesting that he thought it was okay for his son not to take a penalty because it was his first tournament. Clearly, I'm in the minority and that answered my question.

    I guess for me, when my son was starting out and he missed the ball on a swing, I asked him whether he intended to hit it. Kids at that age don't lie when they have no clue what the ramification of the response is (in this case, he had no idea it would cost him a stroke). I used it as a teaching moment and explained that golf was the only sport that was self-governed and through the years, I explained that he'll sleep better at night if he protects the field and is honest about his strokes; that to me was more important than posting a score or telling him don't worry about the mistake because it didn't improve his lie or next shot and, therefore, it was an honest mistake so no penalty needed. In fact, we watched what Rory did at the recent Northern Trust and how he thought he was moving a loose impediment in the bunker that ended up being a clump of sand and was initially given a stroke penalty (and no, I'm not comparing USKG to the PGA so let's not get in discussion about how they're playing to pay for a mortgage....)

    The responses tell me that a number of people on this golf-obsessed forum, which must translate to a number of people that aren't on this forum, take one of two approaches: 1. Use it as a teaching moment to explain the rules, give the competitor a pass, and let them understand that in the future, they will be penalized; or 2. take into consideration their level of skill and whether the infraction has any impact on protecting the top half or so of the field (this is my assumption, so feel free to correct me).

    I guess my question for the two points above: why wouldn't the dad assess the penalty and use it as a teaching moment? What is the benefit of not taking the stroke? The exact conversation was that my son called out his score and the kid's in question since we were marking that kid. The dad said no, I had ____ for my son. I said, what about the stroke for not playing the ball as it lies? His response was - are you kidding me, I'm not giving him a penalty for that. It's his first tournament. And for the second point, is that what we are teaching our junior golfers? To make an assessment of their playing partners and apply the rules accordingly? To assess their own skill level and if they're not going to medal, not to take penalties because it's irrelevant?

    I'm not trying to sugar coat the conversation. That's why I kept saying it wasn't as confrontational as people think. But then I chose to run with it because to me the way the penalty was assessed by the marker is irrelevant for purposes of my topic.

    So I guess we have some parents that teach their child from a young age to be mindful of skill level and ignore penalties that are irrelevant to placement. You guys can't see that becoming a slippery slope? And to all those that keep saying let kids be kids, these tourneys mean nothing -- isn't the rules of golf one of the most fundamental things we need to instill in our junior golfers?

    Theoretical question to you. If the competitor's Dad announced after a hole that he was assessing your son a penalty and wrote down a 5 when you thought he had a 4 and explained that he saw your son's ball move after address, but you didn't see it and your son wasn't sure if the ball moved, would you be OK with that or would you want the TD/rules official/committee to take all the info and decide? How would you be for the remainder of the round?

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    Seriously, what do you say to that?

    You say, 'why don't you set a good example for your kid and play by the rules'.

    Because he said he would just take the 10. We were behind a little and was trying to move us on.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    The responses tell me that a number of people on this golf-obsessed forum, which must translate to a number of people that aren't on this forum, take one of two approaches: 1. Use it as a teaching moment to explain the rules, give the competitor a pass, and let them understand that in the future, they will be penalized; or 2. take into consideration their level of skill and whether the infraction has any impact on protecting the top half or so of the field (this is my assumption, so feel free to correct me).

    I guess my question for the two points above: why wouldn't the dad assess the penalty and use it as a teaching moment? What is the benefit of not taking the stroke? The exact conversation was that my son called out his score and the kid's in question since we were marking that kid. The dad said no, I had ____ for my son. I said, what about the stroke for not playing the ball as it lies? His response was - are you kidding me, I'm not giving him a penalty for that. It's his first tournament. And for the second point, is that what we are teaching our junior golfers? To make an assessment of their playing partners and apply the rules accordingly? To assess their own skill level and if they're not going to medal, not to take penalties because it's irrelevant?

    I'm not trying to sugar coat the conversation. That's why I kept saying it wasn't as confrontational as people think. But then I chose to run with it because to me the way the penalty was assessed by the marker is irrelevant for purposes of my topic.

    So I guess we have some parents that teach their child from a young age to be mindful of skill level and ignore penalties that are irrelevant to placement. You guys can't see that becoming a slippery slope? And to all those that keep saying let kids be kids, these tourneys mean nothing -- isn't the rules of golf one of the most fundamental things we need to instill in our junior golfers?

    @yellowlover519 said:
    I didn't clarify or go into the details of the exchange and sequencing, because after reading the responses, to me it was irrelevant. I was okay at the situation in the most negative light toward me because it was a fundamental issue I had with the dad's response. His son was not awful (just knew he wasn't going to not place based on the field) and, regardless, it didn't matter. I just thought it interesting that he thought it was okay for his son not to take a penalty because it was his first tournament. Clearly, I'm in the minority and that answered my question.

    I guess for me, when my son was starting out and he missed the ball on a swing, I asked him whether he intended to hit it. Kids at that age don't lie when they have no clue what the ramification of the response is (in this case, he had no idea it would cost him a stroke). I used it as a teaching moment and explained that golf was the only sport that was self-governed and through the years, I explained that he'll sleep better at night if he protects the field and is honest about his strokes; that to me was more important than posting a score or telling him don't worry about the mistake because it didn't improve his lie or next shot and, therefore, it was an honest mistake so no penalty needed. In fact, we watched what Rory did at the recent Northern Trust and how he thought he was moving a loose impediment in the bunker that ended up being a clump of sand and was initially given a stroke penalty (and no, I'm not comparing USKG to the PGA so let's not get in discussion about how they're playing to pay for a mortgage....)

    The responses tell me that a number of people on this golf-obsessed forum, which must translate to a number of people that aren't on this forum, take one of two approaches: 1. Use it as a teaching moment to explain the rules, give the competitor a pass, and let them understand that in the future, they will be penalized; or 2. take into consideration their level of skill and whether the infraction has any impact on protecting the top half or so of the field (this is my assumption, so feel free to correct me).

    I guess my question for the two points above: why wouldn't the dad assess the penalty and use it as a teaching moment? What is the benefit of not taking the stroke? The exact conversation was that my son called out his score and the kid's in question since we were marking that kid. The dad said no, I had ____ for my son. I said, what about the stroke for not playing the ball as it lies? His response was - are you kidding me, I'm not giving him a penalty for that. It's his first tournament. And for the second point, is that what we are teaching our junior golfers? To make an assessment of their playing partners and apply the rules accordingly? To assess their own skill level and if they're not going to medal, not to take penalties because it's irrelevant?

    I'm not trying to sugar coat the conversation. That's why I kept saying it wasn't as confrontational as people think. But then I chose to run with it because to me the way the penalty was assessed by the marker is irrelevant for purposes of my topic.

    So I guess we have some parents that teach their child from a young age to be mindful of skill level and ignore penalties that are irrelevant to placement. You guys can't see that becoming a slippery slope? And to all those that keep saying let kids be kids, these tourneys mean nothing -- isn't the rules of golf one of the most fundamental things we need to instill in our junior golfers?

    Theoretical question to you. If the competitor's Dad announced after a hole that he was assessing your son a penalty and wrote down a 5 when you thought he had a 4 and explained that he saw your son's ball move after address, but you didn't see it and your son wasn't sure if the ball moved, would you be OK with that or would you want the TD/rules official/committee to take all the info and decide? How would you be for the remainder of the round?

    Honest answer - I would ask my son if he saw the ball move. Either way, I would tell the dad, let's discuss at the scorer's table (feel free to write down what you think my son should get). AND I WOULD BE FINE THE REST OF THE ROUND. My son played in a regional where he was trying to punch out of the woods and the ball came back and hit him. I told my son that it was a stroke. Another dad said that the rules had changed. I said, it's fine, we'll take the stroke and ask at the scorer's table. Did not affect the rest of the round at all and it didn't bother my son at all - I told him it's a 36-hole event; you can miss a 5 footer that you normally make and it's the same thing. That's golf.

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kcap said:

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties. It is just the way it is, you might not agree but that is reality since kids age from 6 - 12 yr and the organization or the local tour director does not expect them to strictly follow USGA rules (i.e. parents keeping score or assessing penalties) , the email is a classic canned response from the organization wants nothing to do with this topic for forum. Honestly, I do not blame them, who wants to get into a heated discussion with a bunch of jr golfer parents that is of little consequence.

    I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing, honest mistakes like picking up the ball from the fringe for a first timer do happen, maybe he thought it was green and was tightly cut. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.

    This is kid golf, he is a first timer and nothing that he did gave him an unfair advantage on the field. I would love to know what the kid shot on the round? You already told us he was not going to place, so what did he get on that hole. I am going to guess he was lying 3 or 4 and ended up with a double or triple on the hole. I am assuming he is not a player so it is okay to teach on the course! That is all.

    On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

    Playing by the rules is one of the fundamentals of this discussion. The rules need to be followed and the kids need to be taught the rules properly. Part of the rules though is who can assess a penalty. If we're going to use the premise of teaching the rules then all the rules need to apply. We can only go by what the OP shared and it certainly appears that unilaterally, he decided and then announced his decision to assess a penalty, which the player's Dad got upset about. If they had a conversation and agreed on the penalty fine. If he stated they had a conversation and disagreed so he wrote down the score the player told him but then said to the Dad, let's let the TD figure it out, fine.

    It was also concerning in the OP's post that he commented that the player wasn't going to contend in the event and that he didn't care about it being uncomfortable for 18 holes. These are kids and why make any or all of them uncomfortable for something that should be fun? BTW, if the OP and the Dad had a pleasant conversation, why would it be uncomfortable for 18 holes?

    And this is why I kept asking for your experience. AT USKG, EVEN WORLD'S, parents discuss scores and penalties. Parents ask each other if something was a pitch mark or a spike mark (previous rules). That is the role of the parent caddie in every USKG event I've been to. That is what #4 means in the USKG guidelines. Now do you get why I kept coming at you for trying to cop-out or having a fixation off-topic. Because that's what it keeps seeming like when you don't understand the USKG caddie role at tournaments.
    The dad was upset that his kid had to take a score (or he would have to explain it at the scorer's table as I suggested). He wasn't upset at the way I spoke to him about the score. And even if he was, to me that's IRRELEVANT for purposes of this topic. I would rather my son call out an incorrect score even if it's completely uncomfortable. Not to be scared to do what's right or avoid an uncomfortable situation. I don't care if he's playing with 16-year olds at a MET event - he needs to man up and do what's right. So add something to the topic - pretend I was the biggest **** and justify why it would have been okay to teach my son not to assess a penalty in that situation?

    Sorry, but per your OP, you decided and announced unilaterally, a penalty. You're trying to teach your son the rules and a caddie assessing a penalty isn't in the rules. The email from the USKG states that the USGA rules are what is followed and unless you can point out the section in the rules where it says a caddie is allowed to assess a penalty, we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. You can teach you son as you see fit. It's your right and privilege as his Dad and the sun will come up tomorrow but I'm going to see if differently and will respect you for not agreeing with me.

  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 9:03pm #106

    @kcap said:

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    1. I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties.

    2. I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process.

    >

    1. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing. Honest mistakes do happen. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.
    2. On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

    Sorry for cutting your post down a bit here. I hope you don't mind - just trying to make it easier/clearer to respond.

    In any event...

    As to point #1, I am well aware that this is how things go at USKG events. If you look back to the first few responses I offered in this discussion, you will see me confirming as much. I think it is both reasonable and proper for the parents to be involved in the score keeping process in USKG. They are young kids, the rules are confusing, and the parents are involved to help make sure kids are keeping score and adhering to the rules correctly (theoretically).

    As to point #2, yeah, that thought process doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me - and I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. It just seems a bit contradictory. On one hand you are saying the OP was "ethically and allowed by the rules to call a penalty" but then on the other you are saying that he shouldn't have called the penalty. Forgive me, but that don't make no sense.

    As for point #3, I agree the rules of golf are confusing, but I'm not sure there are too many of them. In my tournament and competitive play experience it was assumed that everyone was carrying a rule book in their bag. When a question arose, you pulled out the rule book. If that didn't solve the issue, you went to the officials either during or after the round. I'm also not sure where it says - in the rule book that USKG claims to adhere to - that you are allowed to ignore "honest mistakes". That doesn't sound like tournament golf to me.

    So, maybe we simply disagree about whether or not USKG events are "tournaments" in the strict definition of the term. USKG certainly promotes them as if they are. I've always assumed that they are. But...maybe they are not. That could certainly be.

    And finally, point #4 - I completely agree with you. A very interesting and stimulating discussion that I hope can continue!

    Wow, profanity filter must be on the fritz...not trying to offend anyone!

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  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    I'll give you a better example. My son was 6 playing at a regional. We were on the last hole of an 18-hole two-day event. To me, he played great (shot 39 the first day or something like that). The second day on the last hole, he putts his birdie to a couple of inches and then out of frustration picks up the ball. I think that would have made him shoot a 36 or 37 and he would have placed. But the other dad said that's technically a stroke and I told my son it was and that he shouldn't do that anymore. Took the stroke and didn't affect our experience of that event at all. I'm not giving you these examples bc I want to be applauded. It's clear from my responses that I'm not going the popular route or bandwagoning on responses. I'm saying it because I was naive to think that the majority of people on this golf-obsessed forum would be similar; instead, it's clear to me that the majority of parents are doing quite the opposite or teaching that a blind eye is bliss.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kcap said:

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    I might be wrong but given what you Dave and you are focused upon just tells me that you have not caddied or played a US Kids tournament. In most instances, the parents write the scores, check the scores, discuss penalties. It is just the way it is, you might not agree but that is reality since kids age from 6 - 12 yr and the organization or the local tour director does not expect them to strictly follow USGA rules (i.e. parents keeping score or assessing penalties) , the email is a classic canned response from the organization wants nothing to do with this topic for forum. Honestly, I do not blame them, who wants to get into a heated discussion with a bunch of jr golfer parents that is of little consequence.

    I have been a pretty vocal critic of his response (although in my defense, I did say right in the beginning that he was ethically and allowed by the rules to call the penalty).. so i guess you have bone to pick with my thought process. We can all hopefully agree that their are too many rules in golf, and some of them are confusing, honest mistakes like picking up the ball from the fringe for a first timer do happen, maybe he thought it was green and was tightly cut. You are allowed to ignore them. I wonder if they had asked a rules official or the local director what would have happened. I know at least that my local director would probably ignore it if had seen the incident.

    This is kid golf, he is a first timer and nothing that he did gave him an unfair advantage on the field. I would love to know what the kid shot on the round? You already told us he was not going to place, so what did he get on that hole. I am going to guess he was lying 3 or 4 and ended up with a double or triple on the hole. I am assuming he is not a player so it is okay to teach on the course! That is all.

    On a side note, i do hope that this thread is not locked because as adults we should be able to discuss mundane topics on a slow day

    Playing by the rules is one of the fundamentals of this discussion. The rules need to be followed and the kids need to be taught the rules properly. Part of the rules though is who can assess a penalty. If we're going to use the premise of teaching the rules then all the rules need to apply. We can only go by what the OP shared and it certainly appears that unilaterally, he decided and then announced his decision to assess a penalty, which the player's Dad got upset about. If they had a conversation and agreed on the penalty fine. If he stated they had a conversation and disagreed so he wrote down the score the player told him but then said to the Dad, let's let the TD figure it out, fine.

    It was also concerning in the OP's post that he commented that the player wasn't going to contend in the event and that he didn't care about it being uncomfortable for 18 holes. These are kids and why make any or all of them uncomfortable for something that should be fun? BTW, if the OP and the Dad had a pleasant conversation, why would it be uncomfortable for 18 holes?

    And this is why I kept asking for your experience. AT USKG, EVEN WORLD'S, parents discuss scores and penalties. Parents ask each other if something was a pitch mark or a spike mark (previous rules). That is the role of the parent caddie in every USKG event I've been to. That is what #4 means in the USKG guidelines. Now do you get why I kept coming at you for trying to cop-out or having a fixation off-topic. Because that's what it keeps seeming like when you don't understand the USKG caddie role at tournaments.
    The dad was upset that his kid had to take a score (or he would have to explain it at the scorer's table as I suggested). He wasn't upset at the way I spoke to him about the score. And even if he was, to me that's IRRELEVANT for purposes of this topic. I would rather my son call out an incorrect score even if it's completely uncomfortable. Not to be scared to do what's right or avoid an uncomfortable situation. I don't care if he's playing with 16-year olds at a MET event - he needs to man up and do what's right. So add something to the topic - pretend I was the biggest **** and justify why it would have been okay to teach my son not to assess a penalty in that situation?

    Sorry, but per your OP, you decided and announced unilaterally, a penalty. You're trying to teach your son the rules and a caddie assessing a penalty isn't in the rules. The email from the USKG states that the USGA rules are what is followed and unless you can point out the section in the rules where it says a caddie is allowed to assess a penalty, we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. You can teach you son as you see fit. It's your right and privilege as his Dad and the sun will come up tomorrow but I'm going to see if differently and will respect you for not agreeing with me.

    Fair enough - absent the tourney director announcing before each round that the parent caddies should enforce the rules of golf, (or USKG explicitly stating that fact), you are technically correct. I guess we were all breaching the rules as caddies when our kids were 6 when we would mark the ball for them without announcing the permission to do so by the player. We will agree to disagree.

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:
    Reading this thread I think a lot people get off track yellowlover did nothing wrong here. The rule is obvious and nothing wrong with enforcing it no matter how well the kid played.

    I find it funny when people think it okay to take liberties with rules, because they are playing poorly. If you are already doing bad, what is one more stroke going to matter?

  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,677 ClubWRX

    What I'm not understanding in this whole back and forth was if the kid was playing a ProV1. I'll reserve judgement until someone clarifies.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    The weekend was ironic !

    Got paired with a first timer at the local. Sorry, @ Yellolover, I did not apply the rules to the poor kid, the field was quite safe, he finished last by a lot.
    It became quite obvious that both player and dad were completely clueless about the rules. On the first green, we had to teach him how to mark his ball and if you accidentally hit the ball you need to put it back to the original spot.

    The kid finally got a par and was ecstatic, I did not have it my heart to tell him that you can not ground the club in the bunker or clean it up - hence you probably have a 6! I did tell his father but the score on the card was still 4.

    I only post it because all through the round I kept thinking about the forum and how everyone would react to round/penalties.

    The other parent caddie and I actually discussed the situation and came to the conclusion that we will point stuff out at the end of the hole but keeping track is impossible and actually implementing those penalties could be a 8-9-10 on each hole. FWIW and I do not want anyone on this group to have the wrong impression, being slack on rules does not apply to regular players and it is very easy to tell a player from not.

    The kid should clearly should not be playing tournament golf but that is not my decision, his father got him for the experience and I guess you have to start somewhere.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 16, 2019 2:29pm #112

    I was never talking about the extreme scenario that you describe. If it’s going to be 10s across the board and you are certain that the kid is finishing last, then by all means treat it as a learning experience. That’s a tough call, however. What if he finishes second to last and the last place player took every stroke. I’m sure there are some that would feel better about not finishing dead last.

  • MikekiMMikekiM Members Posts: 224 ✭✭✭

    My son played in a two day tournament this weekend, and on the second day one of the kids had those dots on the face of his driver (trackman, GC4, locating stickers). Somewhere on the 3rd or 4th hole I noticed them and told him to remove them for tournament play. Could he have been penalized, sure, maybe even DQ'd for playing the 1st entire day with them. Did it really affect his score, nope. I just told him and made it clear that during tournaments you can't have them there. He was 12, and not his first tournament. He said he didn't know. Now he does.

  • NolesNoles Members Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 16, 2019 3:58pm #114

    I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

    Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 16, 2019 4:37pm #115

    @Noles said:
    I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

    Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

    At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.
    "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

    If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 16, 2019 4:41pm #116

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Noles said:
    I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

    Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

    At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.
    "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

    If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

    You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

    I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:
    All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

    99 out of 100?!

  • NolesNoles Members Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Noles said:
    I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

    Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

    At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.
    "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

    If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

    I wasn't giving them a ruling at all. I was trying to prevent them, in both situations, from doing something that would result in a penalty.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    BTW, I never said it earlier before but the other dad should not argued the penalty, once its called and legitimate then he should take it up with the official. > @yellowlover519 said:

    I was never talking about the extreme scenario that you describe. If it’s going to be 10s across the board and you are certain that the kid is finishing last, then by all means treat it as a learning experience. That’s a tough call, however. What if he finishes second to last and the last place player took every stroke. I’m sure there are some that would feel better about not finishing dead last.

    I get that and this was a the extreme situation, trust me you would stop assessing penalties after his 3rd-4th attempt in the bunker while grounding the club each instant. You would just stop caring.

    I did not know he was going to come last but also picture this situation, me trying to look at his shot and count every whiff/penalty was distracting and taking away from my role as a caddie. We were there to win and protecting the 2nd or 3rd last player is not priority.

    BTW - I never said it before, but I blame the other dad a lot. If my son is assessed true penalty, he would never argue with the other caddie, would take it up with the official.
    e.g. - he was playing this other non-caddie/non spectator tournament. He hit a approach to a blind green, according to him it was bang on target. Long story shot, the Foursome could not find the ball in the allotted 3 mins. Believe it or not, some kid took out a timer..it took more then 3 mins to find the ball (it had cleared the green and gone slightly long in the fringe).. the kid wanted a penalty, the official said nope

    I do find it crazy that sometimes these rules which are meant for PGA level players who have caddies and spotters are applied to these kid tournaments.. there should be flexibility in the local rules.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:
    All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

    ^^^^^ This

    And in a few months I will post publicly a story and why I had my thread on cheating deleted. A few on here already know the story and is a doozy. It included cheating, social media, and law enforcement being called.

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