Eliminating early extension - once and for all

Golfers,

Happy 2013 to you all.

I am setting the very ambitious goal of eliminating (or at least decreasing significantly) my early extension (EE)/ hip thrust by the end of January.

I have developed a ‘framework’ that relies almost exclusively on advice that Monte Scheinblum has offered on golfwrx. I hope it may help others. All credit goes to Monte. All responsibility for errors is with me.

EE is not just about the poor execution of poor swing mechanics. Flexibility and strength are also important. Overcoming the physical limitations that underpin EE are discussed here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...ion-hip-thrust/

They also receive extensive coverage on the TPI website. Flexibility/strength are an important part of the puzzle. Do not underestimate them.

Monte's own blog and related youtube channel are 'required reading'.

Below is ‘the framework’ composed almost exclusively of verbatim quotes from Monte. There may be other parts of the EE puzzle that I have not picked up on.

Hip turn - backswing

You need a deep hip turn on the backswing. You don't ever want to restrict your hip turn. No restrictions. Ensure the right hip is higher than the left at top of backswing.

You need to allow the hips to turn freely.

Hip turn – downswing

The right hip will feel like its driving really low...or the left hip will feel like it is going up and around really hard.

Getting stuck/inside

Getting inside on the backswing is best avoided. Low and slow takeaway is death. Get the club up by lifting the arms.

When your hips bump and your right shoulder goes down, it needs to go down and out to the ball and around. When you get stuck, it is going down more toward the right hip. In other words, shoulder turn is too vertical.

Many people who whip it too far inside are too upright with the hands/handle too high at address.

I think it would help if you bent at the waist more and stuck your butt out a little more. That would help the inside takeaway.

Transition

My view is the hips move laterally to begin the down swing to initiate the weight shift and prevent you from snatching the club with your arms and hands...and smooths out the transition and lets the club fall on a good path...Then everything turns together.

Initiate the downswing with a slight hip bump to the target while keeping the upper body back.

Shoulder turn - backswing

Turn shoulders at 90* to spine during backswing.

The left shoulder is supposed to go down under the chin, not down and away from the chin.

Too upright at address and flat shoulder turn on back swing go hand in hand.

Left one low or right one high off the ball.

You want your left arm rolling up the chest, not staying connected to one spot.

Shoulder turn - downswing

Turn shoulders at 90* to spine on downswing. To most people, a 90* shoulder turn on the downswing will be perceived as over the top, so they won't do it and be stuck coming too far from the inside their whole lives. Your right shoulder needs to work more down and out to the ball instead of down to your right hip. This makes you work around your spine and brings the path more left and there is less need to manipulate.

If your right shoulder rotates down and out past your right hip...then the right elbow will slide into the perfect place past the right hip when you "bump and dump." Then you will have plenty of room to turn because your right shoulder is working around your spine, instead of crashing into the right hip.

It's pretty easy to see that when the shoulder turn becomes too vertical on the downswing, it promotes, if not causes EE.

You are bent at the waist. So if the shoulders rotate 90* to the spine, the right shoulder goes down.

Lateral shift

Got to have lateral shift.

There is no such thing as a lateral lower body slide. It is only a slide if the upper body goes too.

Your weight needs to shift forward more first before you turn so your arms can shallow.

Spine tilt - impact

When you have no tilt at impact, you will generally have a poor weight shift and not enough room for your arms to stay connected and extend.

The important part is having tilt at impact. It doesn't matter if it's an LW off your back foot, or a driver teed up high out in front of your front foot. Your hips need to be forward to shift the weight and your upper body cannot move forward and must stay back. That creates tilt at impact.

You MUST have your spine tilted behind the ball at impact or your arms will have no room and/or your hips will stall. Those things allow your hands to stay ahead of the club head at impact and "get compression." The shifting of the weight with the lower body and keeping the upper body in place is what causes the tilt.

The big issue is people are uncomfortable feeling tilt at impact. Esepcially when they are focusing on hitting down on the ball. This is where I recommend people start with some tilt, so they get a sense of having some, then to feel an increase in that tilt at impact.

Spine tilt - address

Since so many golfers have trouble getting their hips/lower body/weight shifted to the front side on the downswing, I believe starting with the hips forward helps this.

Make sure you are tilted at address with the left hip slightly forward creating the tilt. That will allow you to turn your shoulders around your spine, instead of too vertically. That will help your hips open up more in sync with your shoulder turn. Most people will get an over the top sensation, but if you are tilted properly behind the ball, it is not OTT. If you start with the left hip bumped slightly toward the target at address, it will make it easier for your body to digest starting the down swing with a slight lateral move which creates the weight shift and tilt at impact. If your shoulders turn around your spine, the hips will rotate better.

You MUST have your spine tilted behind the ball at impact or your arms will have no room and/or your hips will stall. Those things allow your hands to stay ahead of the club head at impact and "get compression." The shifting of the weight with the lower body and keeping the upper body in place is what causes the tilt.

The amount of tilt will be dictated by length of club and ball position. You will be more tilted with driver than with 5 iron and more tilted with 5 iron than with wedge.

If anyone wants to rid themselves of EE, then by all means come along for the ride.

For the visually inclined, I have collated these videos (most from Monte, but not all) that relate directly to EE:

Monte: Early Extension, Hip Thrust, Loss of Tush Line, Goat Humping
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wClCrJjKNKY&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=33[/media]
Monte: Early extension: the right hip
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfeu95BaLlA&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=3[/media]

Monte: Bump Dump and Turn
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g&feature=player_embedded[/url]
Monte: Deep Hip Turn
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9ZCeA19vs&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=20"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9ZCeA19vs&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=20[/url]

Monte: Proper shoulder turn – surgical tubing
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QirNnuY-wrc&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=22"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QirNnuY-wrc&list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q&index=22[/url]

Corey Sullivan - Early extension: the solution
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUQmjdywsio&list=UUlg0omOIOH6DWbRRnTxORUw&index=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUQmjdywsio&list=UUlg0omOIOH6DWbRRnTxORUw&index=1[/url]
Michael Jacobs - Kvest, early extension and vertical swing plane
[url="http://vimeo.com/54859804#at=0"]http://vimeo.com/54859804#at=0[/url]

Sergio Garcia – 3D analysis
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU7RXXJisAY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU7RXXJisAY[/url]
Tom Watson - Secret of the golf swing
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo[/url]

And now you I will show you why I am so keen to reduce my EE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBsViwYfRVo

In the video I have an alignment stick through my belt loops, but with the the video resolution it is not very clear.

On 'high res', two things are evident 1) the angle between my left hip and right hip at top of backswing is approx 28* (notwithstanding any parallax issues). This suggests/indicates that my right hip is higher than my left; 2) The alignment stick is only just 'open' at impact but lets just call it parallel to target line. It is also 'flat' at impact, indicating level hips at impact.

I think I have the following problems:

1. Insufficient spine tilt at both address and impact.
2. Next to no lateral shift.
3. Upper body not behind ball at impact.
4. Should turn on downswing too vertical. Need to get shoulder 'down and out'.
5. Inadequate hip rotation on downswing.
6. Downswing too steep. Need to shallow it out.

I'm in. I just posted my swing with the same issue. We should make a friendly wager. A fifth of Fireball perhaps?

Who makes the most improvement by Feb?

An excellent post to kick off the new years.

Awesome thread. My biggest fault here. I will be following this and trying to fix this in 2013 as you are. Thanks for the videos. Monte is awesome. Martin Chuck also does some great instruction on here.

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357011855' post='6146421']
And now you I will show you why I am so keen to reduce my EE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBsViwYfRVo

In the video I have an alignment stick through my belt loops, but with the the video resolution it is not very clear.

On 'high res', two things are evident 1) the angle between my left hip and right hip at top of backswing is approx 28* (notwithstanding any parallax issues). This suggests/indicates that my right hip is higher than my left; 2) The alignment stick is only just 'open' at impact but lets just call it parallel to target line. It is also 'flat' at impact, indicating level hips at impact.

I think I have the following problems:

1. Insufficient spine tilt at both address and impact.
2. Next to no lateral shift.
3. Upper body not behind ball at impact.
4. Should turn on downswing too vertical. Need to get shoulder 'down and out'.
5. Inadequate hip rotation on downswing.
6. Downswing too steep. Need to shallow it out.
[/quote]

You stole my swing! That's looks eerily similar to where I was this past summer.
That's quite a laundry list of faults and fixes. Try not to get too many swing thoughts running around.
Good luck, and I don't need it back.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like you are releasing the clubhead

To be honest having a stick through my belt loops would MAKE me early extend, I'd be paranoid about catching it on the way down.

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357011855' post='6146421']
And now you I will show you why I am so keen to reduce my EE.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBsViwYfRVo[/media]

In the video I have an alignment stick through my belt loops, but with the the video resolution it is not very clear.

On 'high res', two things are evident 1) the angle between my left hip and right hip at top of backswing is approx 28* (notwithstanding any parallax issues). This suggests/indicates that my right hip is higher than my left; 2) The alignment stick is only just 'open' at impact but lets just call it parallel to target line. It is also 'flat' at impact, indicating level hips at impact.

I think I have the following problems:

1. Insufficient spine tilt at both address and impact.
2. Next to no lateral shift.
3. Upper body not behind ball at impact.
4. Should turn on downswing too vertical. Need to get shoulder 'down and out'.
5. Inadequate hip rotation on downswing.
6. Downswing too steep. Need to shallow it out.
[/quote]
Please post a front facing video.
People seem to forget that EE is ALWAYS a result never a cause and is a consequence of the body attempting to remain in balance .As result it does no good to focus on the EE itself ,but on parts of the swing that happen much earlier
Yes ,you have the triad of pivot stall,EE and flipping,but you are going about the solution in the wrong way.If you do not have fitness problems,then you need to improve the way that you bend to the ball ,thus improving your fore/aft balance.Thus is a simple thing to do .Without a club place your hands on the hipbones in front of your body and push gently back.You should feel your hamstrings stretch and your butt go up in the air.As you approach the area where you would ground the club ,bend your knees to settle in.Your arms should hang vertically ,while yours does not ..that is a a good clue that your fore/aft balance is problematic.It also looks like you are not loading into your right leg correctly at the top ,as evidenced by the look that your right hip is considerably higher than the left at the top.This may be a camera illusion and one of the reasons why you need to post a front facing video.If this is the case thane you need some other setup changes

Early extension is an athletic move in an effort to shallow the club and get the path/ball more right. Fix the steepness and there is no need to early extend. I'd advise to get what feels deep and shallow coming down. Will feel like you'd hit big pushes. If you stall and stand up you'll dump everything and either hit a foot behind it or all but whiff. If you were deep and shallow you could "cover it" and keep turning to get clubhead out to the ball. You will actually feel like your arms are behind that stick, they won't be, and Id remove it as that's not helping your specific issue

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357089954' post='6150785']
Early extension is an athletic move in an effort to shallow the club and get the path/ball more right. Fix the steepness and there is no need to early extend. I'd advise to get what feels deep and shallow coming down. Will feel like you'd hit big pushes. If you stall and stand up you'll dump everything and either hit a foot behind it or all but whiff. If you were deep and shallow you could "cover it" and keep turning to get clubhead out to the ball. You will actually feel like your arms are behind that stick, they won't be, and Id remove it as that's not helping your specific issue
[/quote]

Great stuff Dan. Very succinct explanation. You too Russ:)

Yea, good stuff. I am VERY steep myself and have loads of EE. Closely following here for inputs just as others are probably doing.

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1357093683' post='6151173']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357089954' post='6150785']
Early extension is an athletic move in an effort to shallow the club and get the path/ball more right. Fix the steepness and there is no need to early extend. I'd advise to get what feels deep and shallow coming down. Will feel like you'd hit big pushes. If you stall and stand up you'll dump everything and either hit a foot behind it or all but whiff. If you were deep and shallow you could "cover it" and keep turning to get clubhead out to the ball. You will actually feel like your arms are behind that stick, they won't be, and Id remove it as that's not helping your specific issue
[/quote]

Great stuff Dan. Very succinct explanation. You too Russ:)
[/quote]

Yep...and these videos show some of the body movements that cause steep and out of balance (or are results of them) and some of the feels and body movements that will take you out of that.

I show students this stuff and it gives them an idea on why they steepen the club and how they can avoid it.

I try and avoid telling them to shallow the arms/hands, as that often ends in an arm/hand drop independent of the turn. The opposite extreme.

Just today a guy said, "When I get the sensation my right hip goes down, my arms feel like they drop behind me and I don't like that feel."

That was a result of him restricting the hip turn in the past and if his arms shallowed, the right elbow was behind his turn and so he would yank the club out in front of him in transition, steepen the club, then thrust to shallow it.

Monte, your advice about a full hip turn is great. I know you speak often about it and for good reason. Easy to get stuck,then overcompensate and EE, without a full hip turn. I'm almost cured from X Factor poisoning thanks to you:)

Thanks Russ. I will post font view ASAP.

So my arms are too far out in front? Am i correct in saying that the you want my hands closer to my belt buckle?

Here are my 'feels' when I tried your suggestions: 1) Yes I can feel the tension in the hamstrings; 2) My weight feels more back on my heels - about 50-50 between heels and toes; 3) My butt feels like it is three feet behind me; 4) My lower back feels like it is arched and or dead straight. Are these logical feels?

Are you happy for me to follow the Dan Whitakker set up?: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDa_K3RVKno"]https://www.youtube....h?v=QDa_K3RVKno[/url]

Monte has been 'big' on a deep and high hip turn. so I decided that would be the start of my journey (before moving the shoulders). Fair to say i was emphasizing that aspect of the swing. I suspect that 'under pressure', the right hip to would get lower. This looks like a great debate topic. I will invite Monte to comment. Can a right hip get too high at top of backswing? Is there an ineffective/inappropriate way of getting it there?

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357089954' post='6150785']
Early extension is an athletic move in an effort to shallow the club and get the path/ball more right. Fix the steepness and there is no need to early extend. I'd advise to get what feels deep and shallow coming down. Will feel like you'd hit big pushes. If you stall and stand up you'll dump everything and either hit a foot behind it or all but whiff. If you were deep and shallow you could "cover it" and keep turning to get clubhead out to the ball. You will actually feel like your arms are behind that stick, they won't be, and Id remove it as that's not helping your specific issue
[/quote]

Tanks Iteach. I understand angle of attack, but am less clear on shallow and steep. I will google these terms to help connect the dots.

To get 'deep and shallow' would mean that the shaft is flatter on the downswing (i.e. shallow) and the clubhead further away from target line (deeper)?

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357096545' post='6151457']


Monte has been 'big' on a deep and high hip turn. so I decided that would be the start of my journey (before moving the shoulders). Fair to say i was emphasizing that aspect of the swing. I suspect that 'under pressure', the right hip to would get lower. This looks like a great debate topic. I will invite Monte to comment. Can a right hip get too high at top of backswing? Is there an ineffective/inappropriate way of getting it there?
[/quote]

This thread is going to end up providing different ways of understanding the same information and help a lot of people. Well done Geoff.

I have never seen anyone get the right hip too high. I can't think of a way to do it, especially if it is going high and deep and getting behind the right (rear heel).

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357096545' post='6151457']
Thanks Russ. I will post font view ASAP.

So my arms are too far out in front? Am i correct in saying that the you want my hands closer to my belt buckle?

Here are my 'feels' when I tried your suggestions: 1) Yes I can feel the tension in the hamstrings; 2) My weight feels more back on my heels - about 50-50 between heels and toes; 3) My butt feels like it is three feet behind me; 4) My lower back feels like it is arched and or dead straight. Are these logical feels?

Are you happy for me to follow the Dan Whitakker set up?: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDa_K3RVKno"]https://www.youtube....h?v=QDa_K3RVKno[/url]

Monte has been 'big' on a deep and high hip turn. so I decided that would be the start of my journey (before moving the shoulders). Fair to say i was emphasizing that aspect of the swing. I suspect that 'under pressure', the right hip to would get lower. This looks like a great debate topic. I will invite Monte to comment. Can a right hip get too high at top of backswing? Is there an ineffective/inappropriate way of getting it there?
[/quote]
Hands should be slightly closer to your body at setup,about 1 fist from your body with a 7 iron ,from 1.5 to 2 with a driver .Might as well video a dtl video also with this different spine bend to check
Of course the right hip can get too high.This is largely ,but not completely a matter of your setup.A deep hip turn is a good thing.Such a hip turn is one of the more important aspects of creating space for your arms going down so that you do not need to EE or stall your pivot

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1357097300' post='6151515']
[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357096545' post='6151457']
Monte has been 'big' on a deep and high hip turn. so I decided that would be the start of my journey (before moving the shoulders). Fair to say i was emphasizing that aspect of the swing. I suspect that 'under pressure', the right hip to would get lower. This looks like a great debate topic. I will invite Monte to comment. Can a right hip get too high at top of backswing? Is there an ineffective/inappropriate way of getting it there?
[/quote]

This thread is going to end up providing different ways of understanding the same information and help a lot of people. Well done Geoff.

I have never seen anyone get the right hip too high. I can't think of a way to do it, especially if it is going high and deep and getting behind the right (rear heel).
[/quote]
Monte
2 simple ways if the hip turn is not done correctly
a.Straighten the right leg
b..Sway load going back

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357098033' post='6151589']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1357097300' post='6151515']
[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1357096545' post='6151457']
Monte has been 'big' on a deep and high hip turn. so I decided that would be the start of my journey (before moving the shoulders). Fair to say i was emphasizing that aspect of the swing. I suspect that 'under pressure', the right hip to would get lower. This looks like a great debate topic. I will invite Monte to comment. Can a right hip get too high at top of backswing? Is there an ineffective/inappropriate way of getting it there?
[/quote]

This thread is going to end up providing different ways of understanding the same information and help a lot of people. Well done Geoff.

I have never seen anyone get the right hip too high. I can't think of a way to do it, especially if it is going high and deep and getting behind the right (rear heel).
[/quote]
Monte
2 simple ways if the hip turn is not done correctly
a.Straighten the right leg
b..Sway load going back
[/quote]

I know how the hips can get out of position that way, but the right hip really wouldn't get too high...especially if you are trying to get the right hip deep and behind the right heel.

The question was how the right hip can get too high and couldn't think of any ways that can happen.

A great thread, and more evidence of how brilliant Montes teachings are, and love the watson video talking about 90* shoulder turn to the spine.

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1357134117' post='6152707']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave
[/quote]

A lot smarter people than me can answer this, but arent upright clubs supposed to help, and the draw biased drivers? I am not saying they worked, just isnt that the idea behind them?

[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1357134691' post='6152735']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1357134117' post='6152707']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave
[/quote]

A lot smarter people than me can answer this, but arent upright clubs supposed to help, and the draw biased drivers? I am not saying they worked, just isnt that the idea behind them?
[/quote]

I have suffered from EE all my life and while I'm not smarter than you, I can tell you that the people you speak of would conclude upright clubs would not help EE. The majority of the time, EE is caused by the golfer trying to flatten and shallow the club plane. An upright lie angle would exacerbate the hooks and blocks.

Since the biggest problem that EE causes is poor timing, I would say if someone wanted to compensate for permanent EE, the best way would be to practice their timing 40 hours per week.

i found this video and drill very interesting, ive ordered a couple of these to help with exercise anyway, what do Monte and others think? [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRh387NpRw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRh387NpRw[/url]