Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 4, 2019 6:42pm #62
    I'm not going to respond in-line (quoting) to the above argument to save space, but will still comment:



    I think it's yet to be determined whether leaving the pin in is an advantage or disadvantage. There's nothing conclusive scientifically that I've seen. So far, based on the studies and my own experience I really don't think it helps other than for those who gain confidence visually by using the stick to help with depth perception or alignment. I'd bet that in terms of helping the ball go or stay in the hole or out of the hole it's close to a statistical "wash."



    Edit: to add that those believing it helps them visually already had the option of having it tended under the previous rules.
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  • josh21120josh21120 Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:
    I found it extremely annoying this weekend playing in foursomes. One guy wanted it in on putts longer than 10 feet or so, another always wanted it in, another was using it only in certain situations and I prefer to have it out unless the putt is super long. I really wish they would have left this rule change out of the new rules. if the intent was to speed up play it certainly did the precise opposite in our group.




    Mostly, folks I play with tend to keep the flag in for putts where they would have had the flag tended anyway. Then out. But, today, I did play with a guy(stranger)who insisted on flag-in for ALL putts. Replacing flag for 6” putts - kind of annoying.

    IMO, none of the rules, new or old, have much impact on speed of play anyway. Self-awareness, desire to “keep pace”, and appropriate slow-play consequences, are needed (IMO). Good luck, right? Haha
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  • egehoskiegehoski Members Posts: 49 ✭✭
    I haven’t gotten the opportunity to see how this will play out in my world yet, because I live in Michigan. I’ve left the flag in playing solo, when I’m just cruising through a quick 9. But I want it out when I’m playing a real round. Just my preference.

    I do know that not everyone plays at courses with perfect cups and flagsticks. It could be a real pain if guys keep straightening the flag prior to putting. Just a thought.

    I guess I’ll see how it plays out when league season starts up here. But me personally, I’m not into it. (Advantage or not)
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    egehoski wrote:


    I haven't gotten the opportunity to see how this will play out in my world yet, because I live in Michigan. I've left the flag in playing solo, when I'm just cruising through a quick 9. But I want it out when I'm playing a real round. Just my preference.

    I do know that not everyone plays at courses with perfect cups and flagsticks. It could be a real pain if guys keep straightening the flag prior to putting. Just a thought.

    I guess I'll see how it plays out when league season starts up here. But me personally, I'm not into it. (Advantage or not)




    I was in your camp. I thought I wouldn't be into it. Tried it. Liked it. I honestly believe speeds up play around the greens, which is great because it gives me more time to wait on the next tee en route to playing in the exact same amount of total time.
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  • bodhi555bodhi555 Members Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haven't had a chance to try it with my normal four ball as they are all still hibernating, but I've had a chance to try both approaches now.



    On long putts I'll be leaving it in, as it has killed the need to tend the flag, which should in turn save some wear around the holes themselves.



    Anything inside 30 feet ill still be pulling it tho, as I'm finding it far too distracting having a flag flapping away when I'm putting, and I've had a few that didn't hit the pin square on bounce back out again, that would have gone in without. I'm generally a pretty quick player, so have no qualms about being the awkward one who has it pulled if it comes to it.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:


    I'm not going to respond in-line (quoting) to the above argument to save space, but will still comment:



    I think it's yet to be determined whether leaving the pin in is an advantage or disadvantage. There's nothing conclusive scientifically that I've seen. So far, based on the studies and my own experience I really don't think it helps other than for those who gain confidence visually by using the stick to help with depth perception or alignment. I'd bet that in terms of helping the ball go or stay in the hole or out of the hole it's close to a statistical "wash."



    Edit: to add that those believing it helps them visually already had the option of having it tended under the previous rules.


    I believe he was suggesting that, due to some of the randomness of the bounces, the flagstick could change the results of individual competitions. Someone could hit the stick and get a good bounce, another guy might get a bad bounce, and we'd have a different winner. I'd say that's inevitable, but I don't see it as a big argument against the changed rule.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    I'm not going to respond in-line (quoting) to the above argument to save space, but will still comment:



    I think it's yet to be determined whether leaving the pin in is an advantage or disadvantage. There's nothing conclusive scientifically that I've seen. So far, based on the studies and my own experience I really don't think it helps other than for those who gain confidence visually by using the stick to help with depth perception or alignment. I'd bet that in terms of helping the ball go or stay in the hole or out of the hole it's close to a statistical "wash."



    Edit: to add that those believing it helps them visually already had the option of having it tended under the previous rules.


    I believe he was suggesting that, due to some of the randomness of the bounces, the flagstick could change the results of individual competitions. Someone could hit the stick and get a good bounce, another guy might get a bad bounce, and we'd have a different winner. I'd say that's inevitable, but I don't see it as a big argument against the changed rule.




    Thanks...and I dont disagree, but dont see how it's any different than a number of other "rub of the green" scenarios.
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  • Big BenBig Ben Members Posts: 9,138 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.




    The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as a few strokes as possible. Any rule change that creates the opportunity for more options to score, or less options for that matter, fundamentally changes the game. You say you don't see it making a significant difference in scoring, but it could make a significant difference in who is scoring during a particular round. If someone can gain one stroke by leaving the flag in, where they never had the possibility before, how is that not a fundamental change in scoring? Further, if you were to lose a match to someone who was able to benefit from leaving the flag in over the course of a round, clearly the match/game changed fundamentally from if you had played the match under the 2018 rules?



    I'm also aware of the rule change for that period of time, and yes, the fundamentals for how to score on the green did change, just as they did when the stymie was removed from match play in 1952. While we are no longer playing golf in 1968, just what was the reason for re-instituting the penalty after 1968?



    I'm not arguing right or wrong, or even how or when someone will benefit (and golfers will benefit). I won't even debate the "research" since there seems to be conflicting results, which would be expected this early into the process. I'm simply arguing the opportunity for an advantage that did not exist in the modern era has been introduced into the current rules. In fact, I find the small sample of examples given for it not making a difference equivocal at best. Arguing for handicaps improving or not bears no correlation to the flag being "in/out" and the benefit of a particular moment in time (i.e. putt). Nor does citing examples of "I had a putt that would've gone in had I left the flag out".



    The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be finding ways to best use this rule to my advantage until it changes.



    Meanwhile there's another thread with people wanting to ban lines on the golf ball. I love this place.


    I can't find anything to disagree with, other than the word "fundamentally". To me, this is a tweak, not a fundamental change.


    DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.



    For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?



    For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.



    I'm glad to see you concede that there is an inherent advantage to the new rule, even though you may not want to admit it.



    As for every other golfer using this rule to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule to their advantage.
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2019 10:14am #72


    DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.



    For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?



    For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.




    Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.



    As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.
  • B_of_HB_of_H Members Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2019 10:23am #73
    Big Ben wrote:


    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.




    actually I think everyone just needs to take it out. it works perfectly that way. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />





    (point being that i'm not going to go against what I believe to be the ethics of the game because some loser runs the usga)
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    I'm not going to respond in-line (quoting) to the above argument to save space, but will still comment:



    I think it's yet to be determined whether leaving the pin in is an advantage or disadvantage. There's nothing conclusive scientifically that I've seen. So far, based on the studies and my own experience I really don't think it helps other than for those who gain confidence visually by using the stick to help with depth perception or alignment. I'd bet that in terms of helping the ball go or stay in the hole or out of the hole it's close to a statistical "wash."



    Edit: to add that those believing it helps them visually already had the option of having it tended under the previous rules.


    I believe he was suggesting that, due to some of the randomness of the bounces, the flagstick could change the results of individual competitions. Someone could hit the stick and get a good bounce, another guy might get a bad bounce, and we'd have a different winner. I'd say that's inevitable, but I don't see it as a big argument against the changed rule.




    Thanks...and I dont disagree, but dont see how it's any different than a number of other "rub of the green" scenarios.




    You bring up an interesting point though. Pin in/out (I believe) definitely save a little time, perhaps as much as 10 minutes per round and the stats will never prove anything anyway as each incident is unique but something golfers lament is "luck".



    Should the Rules have added an additional "run of the green" scenario ? Of course we've always had that anyway with lip outs & lip ins but,,,,,,,,,,,, image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />



    But, as any "would've gone in, would've not gone in" can never be proven,,,,,, your house is safe,,,,,,, and that's the main thing. image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:



    DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.



    For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?



    For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.




    Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.



    As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.




    I suppose so. Not sure that's a problem though.



    It's really no different than all the equipment changes to clubs and balls. They fundamentally changed the game too, and there's not much we can do about it.
  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, COMembers Posts: 572 ✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:

    Big Ben wrote:


    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.




    actually I think everyone just needs to take it out. it works perfectly that way.





    (point being that i'm not going to go against what I believe to be the ethics of the game because some loser runs the usga)




    Oh you're serious
  • B_of_HB_of_H Members Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭
    Joker91 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:

    Big Ben wrote:


    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.




    actually I think everyone just needs to take it out. it works perfectly that way.





    (point being that i'm not going to go against what I believe to be the ethics of the game because some loser runs the usga)




    Oh you're serious




    i was kind of kidding as the idea that 'everyone needs to agree' is unrealistic. Personally I think the PGA tour needs to take the lead here and ban putting with the flagstick in on all tours. Then hopefully courses will adopt a local rule and eventually the usga will change the rule back to where it was. just my .02
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:

    Joker91 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:

    Big Ben wrote:


    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.




    actually I think everyone just needs to take it out. it works perfectly that way.





    (point being that i'm not going to go against what I believe to be the ethics of the game because some loser runs the usga)




    Oh you're serious




    i was kind of kidding as the idea that 'everyone needs to agree' is unrealistic. Personally I think the PGA tour needs to take the lead here and ban putting with the flagstick in on all tours. Then hopefully courses will adopt a local rule and eventually the usga will change the rule back to where it was. just my .02


    Except that assuming they choose to play under the Rules of Golf, they are not permitted to make such a local rule.
  • B_of_HB_of_H Members Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2019 10:34am #79
    davep043 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:

    Joker91 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:

    Big Ben wrote:


    Just leave that sucker in and save the time and hassle. It works well when everyone agrees.




    actually I think everyone just needs to take it out. it works perfectly that way.





    (point being that i'm not going to go against what I believe to be the ethics of the game because some loser runs the usga)




    Oh you're serious




    i was kind of kidding as the idea that 'everyone needs to agree' is unrealistic. Personally I think the PGA tour needs to take the lead here and ban putting with the flagstick in on all tours. Then hopefully courses will adopt a local rule and eventually the usga will change the rule back to where it was. just my .02


    Except that assuming they choose to play under the Rules of Golf, they are not permitted to make such a local rule.




    the usga doesn't own you and the tour can do whatever they want. the tour is bigger and more powerful than the usga. Once that happens then the public can force the usga to change. Nobody will want to putt with the flagstick in if its banned on tour. (well most people at least)
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  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, COMembers Posts: 572 ✭✭
    Oh you're still serious
  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members Posts: 7,419 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    it is especially great when you have that straight putt right up the shadow of the pole.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,795 ClubWRX
    No it doesn't.
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  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members Posts: 7,419 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2019 11:12am #83
    Obee wrote:


    No it doesn't.




    correct, placing the hole above the ground like a basketball hoop with a backboard would fundamentally change the game. you would need a putter and would have to have an amazing wedge game. This is just a slight alteration. if you go back to the original rules of the game. There have been many "fundamental shifts" over time.



    FIRST PRINTED RULES!!!



    1. You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.

    2. Your Tee must be upon the Ground.

    3. You are not to change the Ball which you Strike off the Tee.

    4. You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, Except upon the fair Green and that only / within a Club's length of your Ball.

    5. If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so getting out your Ball.

    6. If your Balls be found any where touching one another, You are to lift the first Ball, till you play the last.

    7. At Holling, you are to play your Ball honestly for the Hole, and not to play upon your Adversary's Ball, not lying in your way to the Hole.

    8. If you should lose your Ball, by it's being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the Spot, where you struck last, & drop another Ball, And allow your adversary a Stroke for the misfortune.

    9. No man at Holling his Ball, is to be allowed, to mark his way to the Hole with his Club, or anything else.

    10. If a Ball be stopp'd by any Person, Horse, Dog or anything else, The Ball so stop'd must be play'd where it lyes.

    11. If you draw your Club in Order to Strike, & proceed so far in the Stroke as to be e Accounted a Stroke.

    12. He whose Ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first.

    13. Neither Trench, Ditch or ****, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out teed /and play'd with any Iron Club.







    It is funny that the **** is because there is a filter in this website that will not let you use a legitimate word because of current misusing of that word. haha.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:




    i was kind of kidding as the idea that 'everyone needs to agree' is unrealistic. Personally I think the PGA tour needs to take the lead here and ban putting with the flagstick in on all tours. Then hopefully courses will adopt a local rule and eventually the usga will change the rule back to where it was. just my .02


    Except that assuming they choose to play under the Rules of Golf, they are not permitted to make such a local rule.




    the usga doesn't own you and the tour can do whatever they want. the tour is bigger and more powerful than the usga. Once that happens then the public can force the usga to change. Nobody will want to putt with the flagstick in if its banned on tour. (well most people at least)


    The Tour certainly CAN do whatever they want. But I will not be holding my breath waiting for the PGA Tour to break ranks with the USGA and R&A and make their own rules. Take the current twitterstorm, and then imagine when the PGA Tour starts from scratch to make their own comprehensive set of Rules. They can't even make an effective and enforceable rule for Pace of Play, do you expect they could succeed when every single thing becomes their responsibility? Oh, remember to start from scratch, no plagiarizing the copyrighted work of the current ruling bodies.
  • eric13eric13 Members Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Maybe pins should be eliminated from golf completely. #sarcasm
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    eric13 wrote:


    Maybe pins should be eliminated from golf completely. #sarcasm


    We'd be like the Scots originally, before regular greens were even established, wandering around the dunes, wondering where that evil bastxxx decided to put the hole today.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2019 12:02pm #87
    oikos1 wrote:



    DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.



    For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?



    For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.




    Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.



    As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.




    Where's the proof of this alleged "inherent advantage?" I'm not convinced based on all I've seen that there's any real advantage, and if there is one, my bet is that it will ultimately prove to be statistically insignificant and/or case by case dependent
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,649 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:
    the usga doesn't own you and the tour can do whatever they want. the tour is bigger and more powerful than the usga. Once that happens then the public can force the usga to change. Nobody will want to putt with the flagstick in if its banned on tour. (well most people at least)




    It's not in their best interest to pick this fight, or any other fight. People have this idea of the PGA Tour and how they're going to stick it to the USGA whenever they get the chance. The problem is, this flagstick drama hasn't been an issue at all.
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  • c7015c7015 Members Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    josh21120 wrote:

    B_of_H wrote:
    I found it extremely annoying this weekend playing in foursomes. One guy wanted it in on putts longer than 10 feet or so, another always wanted it in, another was using it only in certain situations and I prefer to have it out unless the putt is super long. I really wish they would have left this rule change out of the new rules. if the intent was to speed up play it certainly did the precise opposite in our group.




    today, I did play with a guy(stranger)who insisted on flag-in for ALL putts. Replacing flag for 6” putts - kind of annoying.






    you made him putt out the 6" and he is the annoying one ...j/k



    if a guy is puttin for 6" the pin is going back in that hole soon anyway ...
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  • Steele47Steele47 Members Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm in the 'will slow some groups up' camp. Unintended consequences strikes again.
  • pstmstrpstmstr Members Posts: 64 ✭✭
    Haven’t taken the pin out of a hole yet this year and it definitely speeds up play.

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