The GOAT (merged)

[ex0dus]

Jack was much better that tiger off the tee. The first year the started keeping stats was 1980. Jack was first in total driving by a mile. I think he was 10th in distance and 13th in accuracy for a combined 23. Next best was Trevino at 66. Jack was 40 years old, as was Trevino.

 

Tiger was and is far better around the greens. Jack was embarrassing at times around the greens.

 

If they came up at the same time there is really no telling who would have came out ahead. I certainly think Jack would have worked harder if he had to face tiger.

 

I would agree that total wins is being underrated. I wouldn't be surprised if tiger gets near 100 before he is done.

 

 

 

 

[MilkyButterCuts]

> @redfirebird08 said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @naval2006 said:

> > > I hope at least Tiger gets to 18 majors to solve the mistery. I personally believe Tiger has more skill than Jack Nicklaus had throughout his career. They are both the ultimate golf machine mentally speaking, perhaps with a little edge towards Nicklaus. And the putting is killing in both cases. Total Majors favors Jack and in the end it's the yardstick through time, but those who have seen both players in action will probably agree that it's really hard to tell who is better.

> >

> > Tiger is definitely a better wedge player than Nicklaus ever was. After 1980 and working with Phil Rogers, Nicklaus' wedge play got better but still not Tiger Woods level. Nicklaus hit long irons better than Tiger Woods. Nicklaus hit high towering 1 irons when most players believed only God could hit a 1 iron. Tiger Woods rarely has to hit long irons so he doesn't have to be better. Both were/are terrific putters and made putts when needed. Nicklaus was a better driver of the ball. Both were prodigiously long, Nicklaus winning the "Long Drive" contest at the 1963 PGA Championship with a drive of 341. This feat would be very, very respectable today and along side with Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, and any long hitter today. Difference is Nicklaus used a steel shafted MacGregor SS1 persimmon driver and a balata ball.

> >

> > https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson

> >

> > At the end of the day both players were outstanding and definitely worthy of the title GOAT. The differentiator is the total major championship win total. Now that Tiger Woods is healthy again, has returned to his winning ways (Tour Championship and The Masters - #15), the all time major record is back in play. Will Tiger Woods reach 18? Surpass 18? I certainly wouldn't bet against him as of now. If and when Tiger reaches 18 I will gladly refer to him as GOAT. Until that day arrives Nicklaus is the GOAT.

>

>

> Jack might have been slightly better with long irons, but Tiger was pretty dang incredible with them in his own right. Maybe you have forgotten some of the shots he hit during his early years. Like Jack he had a very high, soft ball flight and very flush shots with the long irons compared to everyone else in golf around the mid to late 90's. It was a huge advantage for him over the field before hybrid clubs and the fancy new balls helped out all the other guys around 2001-2003.

 

Mr. Nicklaus just said it himself on Sunday, Tiger is the greatest iron player ever.

[redfirebird08]

> @MilkyButterCuts said:

> > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @naval2006 said:

> > > > I hope at least Tiger gets to 18 majors to solve the mistery. I personally believe Tiger has more skill than Jack Nicklaus had throughout his career. They are both the ultimate golf machine mentally speaking, perhaps with a little edge towards Nicklaus. And the putting is killing in both cases. Total Majors favors Jack and in the end it's the yardstick through time, but those who have seen both players in action will probably agree that it's really hard to tell who is better.

> > >

> > > Tiger is definitely a better wedge player than Nicklaus ever was. After 1980 and working with Phil Rogers, Nicklaus' wedge play got better but still not Tiger Woods level. Nicklaus hit long irons better than Tiger Woods. Nicklaus hit high towering 1 irons when most players believed only God could hit a 1 iron. Tiger Woods rarely has to hit long irons so he doesn't have to be better. Both were/are terrific putters and made putts when needed. Nicklaus was a better driver of the ball. Both were prodigiously long, Nicklaus winning the "Long Drive" contest at the 1963 PGA Championship with a drive of 341. This feat would be very, very respectable today and along side with Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, and any long hitter today. Difference is Nicklaus used a steel shafted MacGregor SS1 persimmon driver and a balata ball.

> > >

> > > https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson

> > >

> > > At the end of the day both players were outstanding and definitely worthy of the title GOAT. The differentiator is the total major championship win total. Now that Tiger Woods is healthy again, has returned to his winning ways (Tour Championship and The Masters - #15), the all time major record is back in play. Will Tiger Woods reach 18? Surpass 18? I certainly wouldn't bet against him as of now. If and when Tiger reaches 18 I will gladly refer to him as GOAT. Until that day arrives Nicklaus is the GOAT.

> >

> >

> > Jack might have been slightly better with long irons, but Tiger was pretty dang incredible with them in his own right. Maybe you have forgotten some of the shots he hit during his early years. Like Jack he had a very high, soft ball flight and very flush shots with the long irons compared to everyone else in golf around the mid to late 90's. It was a huge advantage for him over the field before hybrid clubs and the fancy new balls helped out all the other guys around 2001-2003.

>

> Mr. Nicklaus just said it himself on Sunday, Tiger is the greatest iron player ever.

 

That includes short irons though. Discussion you quoted was only about long irons. Tiger is a lot better wedge and short iron player than Jack was. But the two guys are very similar quality on the medium irons and long irons. Both incredible on the longer irons compared to their peers.

[RobotDoctor]

> @redfirebird08 said:

> > @MilkyButterCuts said:

> > > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @naval2006 said:

> > > > > I hope at least Tiger gets to 18 majors to solve the mistery. I personally believe Tiger has more skill than Jack Nicklaus had throughout his career. They are both the ultimate golf machine mentally speaking, perhaps with a little edge towards Nicklaus. And the putting is killing in both cases. Total Majors favors Jack and in the end it's the yardstick through time, but those who have seen both players in action will probably agree that it's really hard to tell who is better.

> > > >

> > > > Tiger is definitely a better wedge player than Nicklaus ever was. After 1980 and working with Phil Rogers, Nicklaus' wedge play got better but still not Tiger Woods level. Nicklaus hit long irons better than Tiger Woods. Nicklaus hit high towering 1 irons when most players believed only God could hit a 1 iron. Tiger Woods rarely has to hit long irons so he doesn't have to be better. Both were/are terrific putters and made putts when needed. Nicklaus was a better driver of the ball. Both were prodigiously long, Nicklaus winning the "Long Drive" contest at the 1963 PGA Championship with a drive of 341. This feat would be very, very respectable today and along side with Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, and any long hitter today. Difference is Nicklaus used a steel shafted MacGregor SS1 persimmon driver and a balata ball.

> > > >

> > > > https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson

> > > >

> > > > At the end of the day both players were outstanding and definitely worthy of the title GOAT. The differentiator is the total major championship win total. Now that Tiger Woods is healthy again, has returned to his winning ways (Tour Championship and The Masters - #15), the all time major record is back in play. Will Tiger Woods reach 18? Surpass 18? I certainly wouldn't bet against him as of now. If and when Tiger reaches 18 I will gladly refer to him as GOAT. Until that day arrives Nicklaus is the GOAT.

> > >

> > >

> > > Jack might have been slightly better with long irons, but Tiger was pretty dang incredible with them in his own right. Maybe you have forgotten some of the shots he hit during his early years. Like Jack he had a very high, soft ball flight and very flush shots with the long irons compared to everyone else in golf around the mid to late 90's. It was a huge advantage for him over the field before hybrid clubs and the fancy new balls helped out all the other guys around 2001-2003.

> >

> > Mr. Nicklaus just said it himself on Sunday, Tiger is the greatest iron player ever.

>

> That includes short irons though. Discussion you quoted was only about long irons. Tiger is a lot better wedge and short iron player than Jack was. But the two guys are very similar quality on the medium irons and long irons. Both incredible on the longer irons compared to their peers.

 

Agreed. I don't think I would throw either's iron game away. Both were pretty good. Tiger Woods' short iron and mid iron play was incredible. Still is!

[longball]

This debate will never see an end. But it really doesn't matter because a lot of us have been lucky enough to watch the 2 "goats" of golf in our lifetime.

 

Will Tiger be playing the Par 3 tournament at 79 years old?

[MilkyButterCuts]

At the least, we should be grateful that we have a topic like this to debate upon.

[jmvargas]

if and when Tiger equals or exceeds 18 majors HE will be the GOAT.....

if not this will still be a nice topic to debate on..

[RobotDoctor]

> @longball said:

> This debate will never see an end. But it really doesn't matter because a lot of us have been lucky enough to watch the 2 "goats" of golf in our lifetime.

>

> Will Tiger be playing the Par 3 tournament at 79 years old?

 

This debates ends when Tiger Woods wins major number 18, even though Nicklaus has many more top 10 finishes, including an advantage of 13 more second place finishes. I definitely would throw out these finishes and solely look at major victories for consideration of GOAT. My gut feeling is that, if healthy, Tiger Woods will get to 18 majors, maybe 19 because of his competitiveness and talent. GOAT to me is the best all time golfer, including being the best tournament golfer. Nicklaus may not have been as good overall as a skilled golfer than Tiger Woods but very close. The differentiator is Nicklaus' tournament play and major win total. Amateur championships don't count because the skill level of the field isn't worthy of comparison to a professional major championship. When was the last time an amateur was in contention to win a professional major? Justin Rose holed out a wedge shot on the 18th in 1998 at Royal Birkdale to finish 4th finishing 2 strokes from the lead. His finish was a bit closer than it could have been but well played anyway. Ken Venturi almost won the 1956 Masters finishing second to Jackie Burke when he scored 80 playing with a not so friendly Sam Snead. When was the last time an amateur finished second and it happened in a US Open? Not since the 60's. Ben Hogan, who played with this amateur that day said the amateur should have won but made a few poor choices, too aggressive. That amateur golfer was something else!!! Other than these anomalies amateur golfers don't compete in major championships so they are not worthy in counting for the major totals. Nicklaus is at 18, not 20. Woods is at 15, not 18.

[LeftArmBender]

Comparing the numbers as if they're apples/apples is a fool's errand. The fields are eight miles deeper, and Tiger Woods has still won more tournaments. How is this even a debate?

 

 

[3jacker]

Let's not forget that Tiger couldn't hardly walk and now has a larger-than-you-would-think contraption permanently embedded in his back bolted to his bones. Winning a major after that....

[redfirebird08]

> @3jacker said:

> Let's not forget that Tiger couldn't hardly walk and now has a larger-than-you-would-think contraption permanently embedded in his back bolted to his bones. Winning a major after that....

 

It will be interesting to see how long the fusion will be effective for his health. The surgeon was quoted the other day that he thinks it could give Tiger another 10 years from here. That would be 40 more attempts in majors.

 

Now that he broke his non-winning streak of the last 11 years, it would be a huge deal if he has a chance to play healthy golf in 40 more major attempts. If his surgeon is right about the 10 year thing, I do not believe the 2019 Masters will be his last major victory.

[rushfan96]

This place is dumb.

[3jacker]

In 5 yrs other things will matter more, based on the history of other golfers. He'll be 48 and getting well up there. Then again, remember Watson in 09. And Snead could beat the young guys for a good long time into his older years.

[bazinky]

The biggest problem with these comparisons is that they are comparing an active golfer with a retired one. Jack supporters have always used the number of major champs that he had to beat as an argument for his superiority to Tiger. All of a sudden, Tiger's major wins now overlap the careers of Kopeka, DJ, Rory, Spieth and all the rest of this next generation.

 

Why don't we just wait till Tiger is done, and then wait to determine who we think is the GOAT?

[Shilgy]

> @bazinky said:

> The biggest problem with these comparisons is that they are comparing an active golfer with a retired one. Jack supporters have always used the number of major champs that he had to beat as an argument for his superiority to Tiger. All of a sudden, Tiger's major wins now overlap the careers of Kopeka, DJ, Rory, Spieth and all the rest of this next generation.

>

> Why don't we just wait till Tiger is done, and then wait to determine who we think is the GOAT?

 

But but but....what would we argue about? Jordan is done is slowing down...no one seems to care about the ladies golf unless it is played at AN....the rules are getting used to by everyone...

[Ashley Schaeffer]

If TW gets to 18, the goalposts will move in Nicklaus’ favor somehow. I hope we get to see how!

[3jacker]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bazinky said:

> >...no one seems to care about the ladies golf unless it is played at AN...

 

Take a peek into the LPGA section of this forum and you'll see there's still some pretty earnest creepin' going on...

[Shilgy]

> @3jacker said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bazinky said:

> > >...no one seems to care about the ladies golf unless it is played at AN...

>

> Take a peek into the LPGA section of this forum and you'll see there's still some pretty earnest creepin' going on...

 

For the most part the creepin' is just in the one thread-and I avoid it.

[MrElculver242415]

Hello all. Some of you probably recognize my username. It's been a long time! Back all those years ago I was a fiery teenager who didn't know how to properly deal with hateful folks on here harassing me and my man TW. But I always kept believing...and look who was right. :wink:

Hope all those who insisted all those years he'd never win a tournament again are enjoying #15. TW's story is the ultimate story of redemption after rock bottom. The only time I came close to truly thinking he may have been done for good was when his back was so bad that he said he wasn't sure if he'd ever be able to physically play again. But once that disc was fused up and he got back at it a few months later, I knew it was game on. Going back to a natural-feel golf swing on his own with no instructor was also an excellent decision and it's paid off. It's a great time in the world once again.

[bscinstnct]

> @MrElculver242415 said:

> Hello all. Some of you probably recognize my username. It's been a long time! Back all those years ago I was a fiery teenager who didn't know how to properly deal with hateful folks on here harassing me and my man TW. But I always kept believing...and look who was right. :wink:

> Hope all those who insisted all those years he'd never win a tournament again are enjoying #15. TW's story is the ultimate story of redemption after rock bottom. The only time I came close to truly thinking he may have been done for good was when his back was so bad that he said he wasn't sure if he'd ever be able to physically play again. But once that disc was fused up and he got back at it a few months later, I knew it was game on. Going back to a natural-feel golf swing on his own with no instructor was also an excellent decision and it's paid off. It's a great time in the world once again.

 

Ha! MrE. Welcome back. For you...

 

 

 

[MrElculver242415]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @MrElculver242415 said:

> > Hello all. Some of you probably recognize my username. It's been a long time! Back all those years ago I was a fiery teenager who didn't know how to properly deal with hateful folks on here harassing me and my man TW. But I always kept believing...and look who was right. :wink:

> > Hope all those who insisted all those years he'd never win a tournament again are enjoying #15. TW's story is the ultimate story of redemption after rock bottom. The only time I came close to truly thinking he may have been done for good was when his back was so bad that he said he wasn't sure if he'd ever be able to physically play again. But once that disc was fused up and he got back at it a few months later, I knew it was game on. Going back to a natural-feel golf swing on his own with no instructor was also an excellent decision and it's paid off. It's a great time in the world once again.

>

> Ha! MrE. Welcome back. For you...

>

>

>

bscinstnct! Hope all is well! I don't plan on being too active here...far too busy now...but I just couldn't resist checking back in after all this :)

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @MrElculver242415 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @MrElculver242415 said:

> > > Hello all. Some of you probably recognize my username. It's been a long time! Back all those years ago I was a fiery teenager who didn't know how to properly deal with hateful folks on here harassing me and my man TW. But I always kept believing...and look who was right. :wink:

> > > Hope all those who insisted all those years he'd never win a tournament again are enjoying #15. TW's story is the ultimate story of redemption after rock bottom. The only time I came close to truly thinking he may have been done for good was when his back was so bad that he said he wasn't sure if he'd ever be able to physically play again. But once that disc was fused up and he got back at it a few months later, I knew it was game on. Going back to a natural-feel golf swing on his own with no instructor was also an excellent decision and it's paid off. It's a great time in the world once again.

> >

> > Ha! MrE. Welcome back. For you...

> >

> >

> >

> bscinstnct! Hope all is well! I don't plan on being too active here...far too busy now...but I just couldn't resist checking back in after all this :)

>

>

Don't you still owe somebody a dozen golf balls? ;-)

 

I do hope you are enjoying Tiger's return to glory!

[Pinging77]

Equally impressive as his comeback from injury, medication problems, being the nightly joke of late night talk shows, is he won it owning his own game. Not one of those blood sucking leeches known as “coaches”. Remember all the get back with Butch crapola.. No Butch, no Haney, no Foley, no Como....just Tiger owning it..

[Titleist99]

> @Pinging77 said:

> Equally impressive as his comeback from injury, medication problems, being the nightly joke of late night talk shows, is he won it owning his own game. Not one of those blood sucking leeches known as “coaches”. Remember all the get back with Butch crapola.. No Butch, no Haney, no Foley, no Como....just Tiger owning it..

Thanks to Lee Trevino...….He told Tiger that he didn't need a coach because and I quote "You're Freakin' Tiger Woods". Lee also said that he would get a coach when he find one that could beat him....

 

[bscinstnct]

> @Pinging77 said:

> Equally impressive as his comeback from injury, medication problems, being the nightly joke of late night talk shows, is he won it owning his own game. Not one of those blood sucking leeches known as “coaches”. Remember all the get back with Butch crapola.. No Butch, no Haney, no Foley, no Como....just Tiger owning it..

 

A little severe. I wouldnt put coaches in the "blood sucking leeches" class. Thats reserved for the media ; )

 

But, great point, almost forgot he did this in his own. Guy went from the top to the very bottom and back on top. Nothing short of inspirational.

[Hawkeye77]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @Pinging77 said:

> > Equally impressive as his comeback from injury, medication problems, being the nightly joke of late night talk shows, is he won it owning his own game. Not one of those blood sucking leeches known as “coaches”. Remember all the get back with Butch crapola.. No Butch, no Haney, no Foley, no Como....just Tiger owning it..

> Thanks to Lee Trevino...….He told Tiger that he didn't need a coach because and I quote "You're Freakin' Tiger Woods". Lee also said that he would get a coach when he find one that could beat him....

>

No.

 

Trevino was peddling that in 2012 when Tiger was mid-Foley, then Tiger had years with Como, so no, it wasn’t thanks to Trevino at all. Trevino kept repeating it often for about anyone who seemingly would listen, but Tiger’s self-reliance now is not really due to Trevino. He didn’t take the advice.

 

[Titleist99]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @Pinging77 said:

> > > Equally impressive as his comeback from injury, medication problems, being the nightly joke of late night talk shows, is he won it owning his own game. Not one of those blood sucking leeches known as “coaches”. Remember all the get back with Butch crapola.. No Butch, no Haney, no Foley, no Como....just Tiger owning it..

> > Thanks to Lee Trevino...….He told Tiger that he didn't need a coach because and I quote "You're Freakin' Tiger Woods". Lee also said that he would get a coach when he find one that could beat him....

> >

> No.

>

> Trevino was peddling that in 2012 when Tiger was mid-Foley, then Tiger had years with Como, so no, it wasn’t thanks to Trevino at all. Trevino kept repeating it often for about anyone who seemingly would listen, but Tiger’s self-reliance now is not really due to Trevino. He didn’t take the advice.

>

Thanks for clearing that up since you personally know Tiger and he told you that. Lee will still tell anybody that will listen....

 

[Lamb]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @longball said:

> > This debate will never see an end. But it really doesn't matter because a lot of us have been lucky enough to watch the 2 "goats" of golf in our lifetime.

> >

> > Will Tiger be playing the Par 3 tournament at 79 years old?

>

> This debates ends when Tiger Woods wins major number 18, even though Nicklaus has many more top 10 finishes, including an advantage of 13 more second place finishes. I definitely would throw out these finishes and solely look at major victories for consideration of GOAT.

 

Wait if Tiger wins 3 more majors which makes him not only beat Jack but also Snead you think some people will still argue about number of Jacks second places being more important? LMAO!!!! Anyone who uses this line is an out right idiot.

 

IMO Sneads pga win record is by far more impressive than Jacks. Its a record Jack tried to beat but could not. Back when Snead was in his prime Majors were not really a big statistic golfers chased obsessively its the media who created the who majors story.

 

 

 

[Lamb]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> If TW gets to 18, the goalposts will move in Nicklaus’ favor somehow. I hope we get to see how!

 

Before Tiger turned pro the media always said Jack had 20 majors (2 AM's) Soon as Tiger won Augusta they making him 4 majors at 21. They dropped the whole jack has 20 majors thing lol.

 

Gonna be fun reading the excuses if Tiger gets to 18.

[Pinging77]

> @Lamb said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @longball said:

> > > This debate will never see an end. But it really doesn't matter because a lot of us have been lucky enough to watch the 2 "goats" of golf in our lifetime.

> > >

> > > Will Tiger be playing the Par 3 tournament at 79 years old?

> >

> > This debates ends when Tiger Woods wins major number 18, even though Nicklaus has many more top 10 finishes, including an advantage of 13 more second place finishes. I definitely would throw out these finishes and solely look at major victories for consideration of GOAT.

>

> Wait if Tiger wins 3 more majors which makes him not only beat Jack but also Snead you think some people will still argue about number of Jacks second places being more important? LMAO!!!! Anyone who uses this line is an out right idiot.

>

> IMO Sneads pga win record is by far more impressive than Jacks. Its a record Jack tried to beat but could not. Back when Snead was in his prime Majors were not really a big statistic golfers chased obsessively its the media who created the who majors story.

>

>

>

Don’t forget among Snead’s win total is a women’s par 3 tournament he won.

“Snead was in the field at the 15-player field at the Royal Poinciana Plaza Invitational played at Palm Beach Golf Club – a par-3 course – in 1961 and 1962.

In 1961, the field boasted 24 men and women. Louise Suggs won that event by one stroke and Snead finished third, two shots behind.

But in 1962, Snead received a special invitation to compete in the event, according to ESPN, and he prevailed by five strokes over Mickey Wright. Patty Berg, Kathy Whitworth and Betsy Rawls were also in the field, where Snead was the only male of the 15 players who teed it up”.