The GOAT (merged)

[puttfordoux]

> @3jacker said:

> Jack has said Tiger is a better golfer than he was.

> Tiger has never said Jack was better than him.

> I don't see how you can argue with the 2 principals to that matter.

 

Muhammad Ali said he was the greatest...does that mean he was? You could also argue it speaks to Jack's humility.

I used to argue in basketball that Michael Jordan was the best individual player, and Magic Johnson the best team player. I could argue in golf that Jack was the best competitive golfer, but Tiger was more dominant. Does that make one better than the other? Not necessarily. They just got to the same place by different routes.

 

[3jacker]

One could argue that. Or one could take their words at face value.

[cubanstogie]

Im sure everyone heard the stat that Tiger wins 23 percent of the time he tees it up, Jack was at 13 percent from what I could find. I was shocked that it wasn't higher. Pretty telling stat for me.

[redfirebird08]

> @puttfordoux said:

> > @3jacker said:

> > Jack has said Tiger is a better golfer than he was.

> > Tiger has never said Jack was better than him.

> > I don't see how you can argue with the 2 principals to that matter.

>

> Muhammad Ali said he was the greatest...does that mean he was? You could also argue it speaks to Jack's humility.

> I used to argue in basketball that Michael Jordan was the best individual player, and Magic Johnson the best team player. I could argue in golf that Jack was the best competitive golfer, but Tiger was more dominant. Does that make one better than the other? Not necessarily. They just got to the same place by different routes.

>

 

I think Larry Bird was better than Magic. Injuries killed Larry's career but his peak was incredible. He was every bit as good of a passer as Magic and every bit as good of a shooter as Steph Curry. He was a phenomenal leader. Celtics went from 29 wins the year before he arrived to 60+ wins with him as a rookie.

 

In later years with his injuries, other HOF players on the team could not lead them to a strong record. McHale/Parish record was 43% win percentage with Bird injured on bench. With Bird on the court it was 73% win percentage. That's incredible impact.

 

Not to mention dragging a bunch of bums from Indiana State to the national title game in college. The guy was an incredible impact player for a solid decade before the injuries took him down.

[Blaker34]

> @playa said:

> All doubt has been removed, Tiger is the greatest golfer to ever play the game. The way he dismantled that field on the back nine, at 43 years of age, is the greatest achievement in golf I've witnessed in my lifetime.

> Hopefully a few of the debates about Tiger that have been floating around here can now be put to bed. Today proves that prime Tiger would have crushed today's fields, and that it wasn't that the old fields were weaker, it's just that Tiger was and still is that good. Today he applied the blow torch on the back nine and they all collapsed under the pressure. Tiger coasted to the line today and crushed them without getting out of second gear, imagine what 2000 Tiger would do to these guys. He didn't even need the extra intimidation of Stevie on the bag to get it done ?

>

> In all honesty I think may be his last one, you could see how much it took out of him emotionally, and he said he has to get up at 4.45am just to have time to get his body ready for play. I got the impression that he had a point to prove, and now he's proven it he might give it all away. He has nothing more to prove, it wouldn't surprise me to see him retire. He came into majors on top winning his first attempt in 97, going out with a green jacket would be fitting.

>

>

 

I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact he may be done. There is no way a guy who is this crazy to try and come back from what he did, all of a sudden decides he's done. He's the greatest of all time because he's addicted to this, he's obsessed. Having that feeling again will drive him even more to keep going.

[redfirebird08]

> @Blaker34 said:

> > @playa said:

> > All doubt has been removed, Tiger is the greatest golfer to ever play the game. The way he dismantled that field on the back nine, at 43 years of age, is the greatest achievement in golf I've witnessed in my lifetime.

> > Hopefully a few of the debates about Tiger that have been floating around here can now be put to bed. Today proves that prime Tiger would have crushed today's fields, and that it wasn't that the old fields were weaker, it's just that Tiger was and still is that good. Today he applied the blow torch on the back nine and they all collapsed under the pressure. Tiger coasted to the line today and crushed them without getting out of second gear, imagine what 2000 Tiger would do to these guys. He didn't even need the extra intimidation of Stevie on the bag to get it done ?

> >

> > In all honesty I think may be his last one, you could see how much it took out of him emotionally, and he said he has to get up at 4.45am just to have time to get his body ready for play. I got the impression that he had a point to prove, and now he's proven it he might give it all away. He has nothing more to prove, it wouldn't surprise me to see him retire. He came into majors on top winning his first attempt in 97, going out with a green jacket would be fitting.

> >

> >

>

> I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact he may be done. There is no way a guy who is this crazy to try and come back from what he did, all of a sudden decides he's done. He's the greatest of all time because he's addicted to this, he's obsessed. Having that feeling again will drive him even more to keep going.

 

Yep, I think this will give him a huge boost of confidence in addition to the confidence he already gained at East Lake last year. The response of the fans at both events is only going to make him want to keep winning big events. It's gotta be an incredible thrill for him, especially after all the injury stuff. His strategy of skipping a recent tour event to protect his health paid off in a huge way this week. Validation for him that a cautious approach is the right approach.

[jdl]

Comparing across different eras is impossible, and the 18 number as some kind of absolute criteria is silly for that reason. I think Tiger and Jack are the top 2 and it's a long way to #3.

[highergr0und]

While I didn't see a Tiger that dismantled the course or crushed the field, I did see a legend of the game who desperately wanted to feel that old glory and found a way to do it through smart golf. No hero eagles, one amazing shot on 16, and some steady golf to shoot a 70 while others faltered. I dunno if that's the path to 19 majors but that's what his body will give him. Lot of hanging "ifs" out there on Sunday as guys faltered in the back nine. Maybe it was a bit of the old Tiger pressure causing others to falter, or maybe it was the format of 3-somes and starting super early for the leaders to try and beat the rain but it happened and he won.

 

I will admit, for the first time ever I am legitimately a fan of Tiger. I've been in awe of his golf during his prime years, but I never considered myself a fan as I just didn't like his attitude. But you could tell today he is very different. Rather than expecting to win, he was dying and hoping to win - and that made his celebration that much sweeter. Toss the kids in there and it was just fantastic.

[Golfnutgalen]

Tiger now has 81 wins compared to Jack's 73, but those numbers alone don't tell the full story:

Tiger: Jack:

15 majors 18 majors

2 Players 3 Players

64 Other PGA Tour Wins 52 other PGA Tour wins

 

It's that last category which doesn't get enough praise. 64 wins alone would place him tied for 3rd in the all time list with Ben freakin' Hogan! And Hogan's total included 8 team wins with tiny fields. 64 wins is 20 more than Phil Mickelson's 44.

 

 

 

[Forged4ever]

> @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

 

While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

 

Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

 

That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

 

 

Cheers?

RP

[Forged4ever]

> @puttfordoux said:

> > @3jacker said:

> > Jack has said Tiger is a better golfer than he was.

> > Tiger has never said Jack was better than him.

> > I don't see how you can argue with the 2 principals to that matter.

>

> Muhammad Ali said he was the greatest...does that mean he was? You could also argue it speaks to Jack's humility.

> I used to argue in basketball that Michael Jordan was the best individual player, and Magic Johnson the best team player. I could argue in golf that Jack was the best competitive golfer, but Tiger was more dominant. Does that make one better than the other? Not necessarily. They just got to the same place by different routes.

>

 

I’ve spoken to this before and Madison & I were having lunch with Jack and his son Steve, and this was in 2014, after Tiger had made it back to #1, and Jack was speaking to how well Tiger was striking the ball after yet another swing change and I asked Jack if it was fair to say that Tiger was the “greatest golfer ever and You are the Greatest Champion ever,” and he sorta laughed, Madison kicked me under the table, lol, and he replied “I wouldn’t disagree with that statement.”

 

Trust me here, Jack doesn’t give a s*** who you wanna say is a “better golfer,” or has a “better swing,” lol.

 

Hell, he’s said ad nauseam that Tom Weiskopf had “twice the swing that I had” and if he had had Weiskopf’s swing, he woulda won 10 more majors, and he was serious.

 

But you will NEVER EVER hear, see or view him stating that someone is a Greater Champion!!

 

Those other accolades like “best golfer,” greatest swing,” etc., are akin to runner-up finishes, lol

 

They don’t mean s*** to a Champion.

 

Ain’t no arguememt there Brother?

 

Nice post!

 

Stay well?

RP

[redfirebird08]

> @Forged4ever said:

> > @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

>

> While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

>

> Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

>

> That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

>

>

>

>

>

> Cheers?

> RP

 

Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

[2putttom]

> @redfirebird08 said:

> > @Forged4ever said:

> > > @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > > Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

> >

> > While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

> >

> > Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

> >

> > That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Cheers?

> > RP

>

> Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

 

I agree, interesting analogy

[pollock21]

> @highergr0und said:

> While I didn't see a Tiger that dismantled the course or crushed the field, I did see a legend of the game who desperately wanted to feel that old glory and found a way to do it through smart golf. No hero eagles, one amazing shot on 16, and some steady golf to shoot a 70 while others faltered. I dunno if that's the path to 19 majors but that's what his body will give him. Lot of hanging "ifs" out there on Sunday as guys faltered in the back nine. Maybe it was a bit of the old Tiger pressure causing others to falter, or maybe it was the format of 3-somes and starting super early for the leaders to try and beat the rain but it happened and he won.

>

> I will admit, for the first time ever I am legitimately a fan of Tiger. I've been in awe of his golf during his prime years, but I never considered myself a fan as I just didn't like his attitude. But you could tell today he is very different. Rather than expecting to win, he was dying and hoping to win - and that made his celebration that much sweeter. Toss the kids in there and it was just fantastic.

 

Make no mistake, I was lucky to have time to watch almost all of his golf this weekend, and Tiger absolutely dismantled this course tee to green. If he had his putter working and converted more of his 5-10 footers, this thing wouldn't have been close. I saw him miss so many putts he normally makes in big events. He always seemed to be able to make the putts when it really mattered. He didn't this tournament. To be honest, Adam Scott was amazing tee to green, but his putter let him down dearly or he'd have been there at the end. Brooks was in the same boat, a few more key putts and he'd have been there. It's all coulda/woulda/shoulda, but I wouldn't say he dinked it around the course (middle of green and taking two putts), he just didn't convert near as many of his really good chances as he normally does in these type of performances.

[redfirebird08]

> @pollock21 said:

> > @highergr0und said:

> > While I didn't see a Tiger that dismantled the course or crushed the field, I did see a legend of the game who desperately wanted to feel that old glory and found a way to do it through smart golf. No hero eagles, one amazing shot on 16, and some steady golf to shoot a 70 while others faltered. I dunno if that's the path to 19 majors but that's what his body will give him. Lot of hanging "ifs" out there on Sunday as guys faltered in the back nine. Maybe it was a bit of the old Tiger pressure causing others to falter, or maybe it was the format of 3-somes and starting super early for the leaders to try and beat the rain but it happened and he won.

> >

> > I will admit, for the first time ever I am legitimately a fan of Tiger. I've been in awe of his golf during his prime years, but I never considered myself a fan as I just didn't like his attitude. But you could tell today he is very different. Rather than expecting to win, he was dying and hoping to win - and that made his celebration that much sweeter. Toss the kids in there and it was just fantastic.

>

> Make no mistake, I was lucky to have time to watch almost all of his golf this weekend, and Tiger absolutely dismantled this course tee to green. If he had his putter working and converted more of his 5-10 footers, this thing wouldn't have been close. I saw him miss so many putts he normally makes in big events. He always seemed to be able to make the putts when it really mattered. He didn't this tournament. To be honest, Adam Scott was amazing tee to green, but his putter let him down dearly or he'd have been there at the end. Brooks was in the same boat, a few more key putts and he'd have been there. It's all coulda/woulda/shoulda, but I wouldn't say he dinked it around the course (middle of green and taking two putts), he just didn't convert near as many of his really good chances as he normally does in these type of performances.

 

He certainly did not run the tables on the greens. That has to be pretty encouraging for him that he was able to win without a lights out putter.

 

But I will say the lag putt from 70 feet at the 9th hole is one of the best putts of his career. Extremely dangerous putt from that distance on such a steep green. Could have turned into bogey or worse very easily and he gets an easy par instead. The 6 foot par save at the 12th was also huge. With Molinari, Koepka, & Finau all dropping 2 shots each at this hole, Tiger absolutely had to make that par putt to gain 2 shots on the guys around him.

[KevCarter]

> @glcoach said:

> I can't believe it. I'm truly in awe of this win by Tiger. These past 22 years have gone by in a blink of an eye. I was 21, not a husband, not a father and played a lot of golf. Now I'm a husband, father of 4, still play a lot of golf and its hard not to get emotional about how the hug with his kids mirrors life for a lot of us. I'm no longer here for the arguments and swing discussions but ****, today was a great day.

 

Good to see your voice Coach. Very well said.

[kwcsports]

> @playa said:

> > @kwcsports said:

> > Anyone saying he dismantled the field watched a different back nine. Molinari made 2 doubles, Tiger won by 1 shot. Great win, good for him, but he never dismantled the field.

>

> I'm saying the perceived pressure and the way Tiger managed his game is the reason the other guys made doubles to hand it to him. They couldn't handle the intimidation factor that Tiger brings to the table.

> Tiger also won by one shot because that's all he needed to win by. He played very conservatively down the stretch once he got the buffer. He took no chances and played ultra safe. I think he had a couple of shots in reserve if he needed them, but like the total professional he is he took no risks and did what he had to do.

>

>

 

I don't think Molinari was intimidated on the 12th. I think he misjudged the wind. He did look nervous on 15 though. Hey, Tiger won, it was a great win for him and I don't take that away from him. All I'm saying is he shot 70, bogeyed the last and won by one. This was in no way a great final round.

[JAMH03]

> @JAMH03 said:

> lf you talk about GOAT, then you need standards. To be honest most people are not even equipped for the coversations. Is TW the GOAT? Entirely depends on HOW you measure. If you count by finishes in Majors then he does't have a realistic chance & hasn't for 15 years at least. What's been lost in recent discussion is all of Jacks top 3 finishes. If you go by finishes, wins vs strength of fields, or relative to peers you may come to a different answer. We lose so much by having these nebulous standards. I always ask myself if X is 1, Y is 2, then who are 3-4-5? Often it's enlightening. When Jack was understood to have passed Bobby Jones how much credance is given to how many more opportunities Jack had? That 50% of J's total opps B. Jones never had? That fully 6:18 of Jacks wins were in Bob's tourament? I do have an opinion, but I just ask that you try to treat the players somewhat fairly as you express yours. FWIW I think the longview suggests Young Tom, Varden, Jones, Hogan, Jack and TW are closer than many might think.

 

@easyyy No idea who merged my post but the idea of HOW to discuss all time greats is different, than who is greater X or Y. Which is why I started the topic as an adjunct to these conversations the nuance will definely be lost here.

[Forged4ever]

> @2putttom said:

> > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > @Forged4ever said:

> > > > @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > > > Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

> > >

> > > While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

> > >

> > > Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

> > >

> > > That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Cheers?

> > > RP

> >

> > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

>

> I agree, interesting analogy

 

Excellent analogy though Tiger has always been, and especially post-hydrant 2009, a very polarizing figure, and while I always separated his on course achievements from his off course behavior, there are many, it’s safe to say millions, that do not, and while his “star power” may or may not equal that of Mr. Palmer, it’s safe to say that he has never approached Arnold Palmer’s popularity with the masses.

 

I used to scoff when the older guys, the guys who were in their 20’s during Mr. Palmer’s hey days in the 1960’s, used to speak of his aura, magnetism and influence on those around him as though it was of some statistical relevance in measuring his Greatness when My Teacher’s Bro, Sam, had his greatness measured strictly by the numbers, and those numbers stated that he was arguably one of the top-3 or 4 ever to Play for Pay, his personality, aura and magnetism be da**.

 

Then I got to meet Mr. Palmer, first at his Club in Latrobe, then at our Club in Pittsburgh and then in my father’s office(he was Mr. Palmer’s doc/surgeon) and while we waited for my father to come over from the hospital, it was just Arnold Palmer and myself as my father was in surgery that afternoon and had told Mr. Palmer to meet him at 4:00 in his office and I was already there, waiting for my dad to head to club to hit some balls. I ran down to my car, grabbed my 8802 from the trunk and back to my dad’s office I went and though my dad had 3-4 putters in a corner in his office, Mr. Palmer would use my 8802 and we used a urine specimen cup as a hole and putted up and down the hall till my father showed up. Ironically, that 8802 is the same putter that Madison had Mr. Palmer sign for me five days prior to his passing 22+ years later. I only wish that I was still sitting with them to remind him him when he signed it, lol.

 

This was the first encounter of many over the next 22+ years and while I will always have a soft spot for Sam and his achievements on the course, I came to see that day in my dad’s office what these older men meant when they spoke almost reverently of Mr. Palmer, and one said, “he’s one of us.”

 

Was he??

 

Of course not, lol

 

But he had a way of making you feel as though you were the most important individual in his world when he was looking you in the eye and speaking to you and I never ever one single time saw him get short, appear hurried, though many times he definitely had more “important” places to be aside from in front of whomever it was that had approached him, or duck away from someone, ever, and I’m talking dozens of times.

 

So while Tiger May be as recognizable, he will never ever be mistaken for being “one of us,” nor would he want to be.

 

Same with Sam, who could be downright rude if ya caught him on a bad day.

 

Mr Palmer??

 

He was good with it, and relished in it.

 

I came to understand what all those guys were talking about when they spoke of Mr. Palmer, and the one, my parent’s electrician, didn’t even Play the friggin game, lmao. I’ll never forget when my father got him two weekend tickets to the ‘73 Open over at Oakmont and Mr. Palmer, who shared the 54 hole lead with Julius Boros, John Schlee and Jerry Heard, had the gallery in a frenzy. The electrician and a couple of his friends, none of whom golfed, were living and dying with every shot that Mr. Palmer hit that day and I’d say half of his gallery was like the electrician and his buds, they didn’t know s*** about the game but they knew that a blue collar guy from Western PA was on the verge of turning back the clock and it was more like a Steeler game than a USGA tourney, lmao.

 

Although maybe yesterday at Augusta was as loud as that Sunday at Oakmont. I’m glad that the crowd was into it cuz Tiger deserved that.

 

If it was the coupe de grace, then I think that THAT is the Major that he should go out on as it was the one that introduced him to us though I hope that he has a few more in him.

 

Not three, lol

 

Two!!

 

Lolol, I’m such an a**hole, lol??

 

Stay well Bros?

RP

 

[redfirebird08]

> @Forged4ever said:

> > @2putttom said:

> > > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > > @Forged4ever said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > > > > Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

> > > >

> > > > While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

> > > >

> > > > Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

> > > >

> > > > That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Cheers?

> > > > RP

> > >

> > > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

> >

> > I agree, interesting analogy

>

> Excellent analogy though Tiger has always been, and especially post-hydrant 2009, a very polarizing figure, and while I always separated his on course achievements from his off course behavior, there are many, it’s safe to say millions, that do not, and while his “star power” may or may not equal that of Mr. Palmer, it’s safe to say that he has never approached Arnold Palmer’s popularity with the masses.

>

> I used to scoff when the older guys, the guys who were in their 20’s during Mr. Palmer’s hey days in the 1960’s, used to speak of his aura, magnetism and influence on those around him as though it was of some statistical relevance in measuring his Greatness when My Teacher’s Bro, Sam, had his greatness measured strictly by the numbers, and those numbers stated that he was arguably one of the top-3 or 4 ever to Play for Pay, his personality, aura and magnetism be ****.

>

> Then I got to meet Mr. Palmer, first at his Club in Latrobe, then at our Club in Pittsburgh and then in my father’s office(he was Mr. Palmer’s doc/surgeon) and while we waited for my father to come over from the hospital, it was just Arnold Palmer and myself as my father was in surgery that afternoon and had told Mr. Palmer to meet him at 4:00 in his office and I was already there, waiting for my dad to head to club to hit some balls. I ran down to my car, grabbed my 8802 from the trunk and back to my dad’s office I went and though my dad had 3-4 putters in a corner in his office, Mr. Palmer would use my 8802 and we used a urine specimen cup as a hole and putted up and down the hall till my father showed up. Ironically, that 8802 is the same putter that Madison had Mr. Palmer sign for me five days prior to his passing 22+ years later. I only wish that I was still sitting with them to remind him him when he signed it, lol.

>

> This was the first encounter of many over the next 22+ years and while I will always have a soft spot for Sam and his achievements on the course, I came to see that day in my dad’s office what these older men meant when they spoke almost reverently of Mr. Palmer, and one said, “he’s one of us.”

>

> Was he??

>

> Of course not, lol

>

> But he had a way of making you feel as though you were the most important individual in his world when he was looking you in the eye and speaking to you and I never ever one single time saw him get short, appear hurried, though many times he definitely had more “important” places to be aside from in front of whomever it was that had approached him, or duck away from someone, ever, and I’m talking dozens of times.

>

> So while Tiger May be as recognizable, he will never ever be mistaken for being “one of us,” nor would he want to be.

>

> Same with Sam, who could be downright rude if ya caught him on a bad day.

>

> Mr Palmer??

>

> He was good with it, and relished in it.

>

> I came to understand what all those guys were talking about when they spoke of Mr. Palmer, and the one, my parent’s electrician, didn’t even Play the friggin game, lmao. I’ll never forget when my father got him two weekend tickets to the ‘73 Open over at Oakmont and Mr. Palmer, who shared the 54 hole lead with Julius Boros, John Schlee and Jerry Heard, had the gallery in a frenzy. The electrician and a couple of his friends, none of whom golfed, were living and dying with every shot that Mr. Palmer hit that day and I’d say half of his gallery was like the electrician and his buds, they didn’t know s*** about the game but they knew that a blue collar guy from Western PA was on the verge of turning back the clock and it was more like a Steeler game than a USGA tourney, lmao.

>

> Although maybe yesterday at Augusta was as loud as that Sunday at Oakmont. I’m glad that the crowd was into it cuz Tiger deserved that.

>

> If it was the coupe de grace, then I think that THAT is the Major that he should go out on as it was the one that introduced him to us though I hope that he has a few more in him.

>

> Not three, lol

>

> Two!!

>

> Lolol, I’m such an a**hole, lol??

>

> Stay well Bros?

> RP

>

 

Arnold was a special guy for sure. Treated people with respect when he did not have to. He'll always be The King for that reason.

[Brock Savage]

> Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

 

I grew up watching Arnie and Jack play, and at different times they were both my favorite golfer. But Tiger is clearly a bigger star. Arnie and Jack were the biggest names in golf; Tiger was, and now is again, the biggest name in all of sports.

 

 

[Forged4ever]

> @"Brock Savage" said:

> > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

>

> But Tiger is clearly a bigger star. Arnie and Jack were the biggest names in golf; Tiger was, and now is again, the biggest name in all of sports.

>

>

Mr. Palmer graced the covers of more than a few non-golf/sports magazines and he was also one of GQ’s “Twenty-Five Coolest Athletes of All-Time.”

 

Jack & Tiger??

 

Yea, right, lmao.

 

Pudgey Bear & Erkel??

 

I’m glad that Tiger made it back to the mountain top?!!

 

Cheers?

RP

 

 

 

[RobotDoctor]

> @Forged4ever said:

> > @2putttom said:

> > > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > > @Forged4ever said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > > > > Personally I don't think major titles alone are the litmus for GOAT. I remember golf pre Tiger and post Tiger, and to me no one has had a more profound impact than Tiger - in so many ways. Sorry to others, but to me Tiger is GOAT for now because there will be another to come along to challenge and I will hopefully be a witness to it...

> > > >

> > > > While Tiger most definitely impacted the landscape within the golfing world, and definitely more so than Jack, there is one man who was bigger than Tiger was is or will ever be.....

> > > >

> > > > Tiger is an incredible Champion, no doubt, however as I measure GOAT by the number on the wall, well, it’s obvious who my GOAT is, till someone hangs 19.

> > > >

> > > > That being said, there was, is and will probably forever only be one Man, who approached being bigger than the game itself, at least the Professional game, and that man ain’t Jack and it sureTF ain’t Tiger, though He is probably the greatest golfer ever, with Jack, at least as it sits today, the GOAT.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Cheers?

> > > > RP

> > >

> > > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

> >

> > I agree, interesting analogy

>

> Excellent analogy though Tiger has always been, and especially post-hydrant 2009, a very polarizing figure, and while I always separated his on course achievements from his off course behavior, there are many, it’s safe to say millions, that do not, and while his “star power” may or may not equal that of Mr. Palmer, it’s safe to say that he has never approached Arnold Palmer’s popularity with the masses.

>

> I used to scoff when the older guys, the guys who were in their 20’s during Mr. Palmer’s hey days in the 1960’s, used to speak of his aura, magnetism and influence on those around him as though it was of some statistical relevance in measuring his Greatness when My Teacher’s Bro, Sam, had his greatness measured strictly by the numbers, and those numbers stated that he was arguably one of the top-3 or 4 ever to Play for Pay, his personality, aura and magnetism be da**.

>

> Then I got to meet Mr. Palmer, first at his Club in Latrobe, then at our Club in Pittsburgh and then in my father’s office(he was Mr. Palmer’s doc/surgeon) and while we waited for my father to come over from the hospital, it was just Arnold Palmer and myself as my father was in surgery that afternoon and had told Mr. Palmer to meet him at 4:00 in his office and I was already there, waiting for my dad to head to club to hit some balls. I ran down to my car, grabbed my 8802 from the trunk and back to my dad’s office I went and though my dad had 3-4 putters in a corner in his office, Mr. Palmer would use my 8802 and we used a urine specimen cup as a hole and putted up and down the hall till my father showed up. Ironically, that 8802 is the same putter that Madison had Mr. Palmer sign for me five days prior to his passing 22+ years later. I only wish that I was still sitting with them to remind him him when he signed it, lol.

>

> This was the first encounter of many over the next 22+ years and while I will always have a soft spot for Sam and his achievements on the course, I came to see that day in my dad’s office what these older men meant when they spoke almost reverently of Mr. Palmer, and one said, “he’s one of us.”

>

> Was he??

>

> Of course not, lol

>

> But he had a way of making you feel as though you were the most important individual in his world when he was looking you in the eye and speaking to you and I never ever one single time saw him get short, appear hurried, though many times he definitely had more “important” places to be aside from in front of whomever it was that had approached him, or duck away from someone, ever, and I’m talking dozens of times.

>

> So while Tiger May be as recognizable, he will never ever be mistaken for being “one of us,” nor would he want to be.

>

> Same with Sam, who could be downright rude if ya caught him on a bad day.

>

> Mr Palmer??

>

> He was good with it, and relished in it.

>

> I came to understand what all those guys were talking about when they spoke of Mr. Palmer, and the one, my parent’s electrician, didn’t even Play the friggin game, lmao. I’ll never forget when my father got him two weekend tickets to the ‘73 Open over at Oakmont and Mr. Palmer, who shared the 54 hole lead with Julius Boros, John Schlee and Jerry Heard, had the gallery in a frenzy. The electrician and a couple of his friends, none of whom golfed, were living and dying with every shot that Mr. Palmer hit that day and I’d say half of his gallery was like the electrician and his buds, they didn’t know s*** about the game but they knew that a blue collar guy from Western PA was on the verge of turning back the clock and it was more like a Steeler game than a USGA tourney, lmao.

>

> Although maybe yesterday at Augusta was as loud as that Sunday at Oakmont. I’m glad that the crowd was into it cuz Tiger deserved that.

>

> If it was the coupe de grace, then I think that THAT is the Major that he should go out on as it was the one that introduced him to us though I hope that he has a few more in him.

>

> Not three, lol

>

> Two!!

>

> Lolol, I’m such an a**hole, lol??

>

> Stay well Bros?

> RP

>

 

I love that recollection. Arnold Palmer was the King and will forever be Golf's King. I wish I could have met him. I have a letter from him. I cherish that. Thanks for sharing the story!!!

[Brock Savage]

> @Forged4ever said:

> > @"Brock Savage" said:

> > > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

> >

> > But Tiger is clearly a bigger star. Arnie and Jack were the biggest names in golf; Tiger was, and now is again, the biggest name in all of sports.

> >

> >

> Mr. Palmer graced the covers of more than a few non-golf/sports magazines and he was also one of GQ’s “Twenty-Five Coolest Athletes of All-Time.”

>

> Jack & Tiger??

>

> Yea, right, lmao.

Thanks for the great cover photos. I was just a young kid when my dad took me to my first PGA event, the 1963 LA Open, which Arnie won. Most people today are used to seeing Arnie as a genial old man, and don't realize what a sex symbol he was. The GQ cover gives you an idea. The women were absolutely flocking around him. My dad jokingly warned me to watch out for the puddles.

 

So I understand what you're saying, but you're still wrong. Arnie was the perfect guy to come along just when golf was starting to be shown on TV, and golf can never repay its debt to him. There is also no question that he was infinitely more fan friendly than Tiger.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Arnie was a golf star, and Tiger was a superstar. I said in my last post that he wasn't just the biggest name in golf, but the biggest name in sports. But it was even beyond that. For a while, he was one of the biggest celebrities of any kind, period, as big as any rock star or movie star. The only athletes who may have been bigger in their times were Ali and Ruth. Tiger's name became part of the vernacular --- if somebody won, say, a Nobel Prize, then articles trying to explain things for a non-scientific audience would say he was the Tiger Woods of physics. I never saw that with Arnie or Jack.

[Forged4ever]

> @"Brock Savage" said:

> > @Forged4ever said:

> > > @"Brock Savage" said:

> > > > Arnold's influence is extremely important for sure. Tiger's star power is every bit as strong as Arnold's ever was. Tiger also has achievements similar to Nicklaus. He's basically a hybrid between those two guys.

> > >

> > > But Tiger is clearly a bigger star. Arnie and Jack were the biggest names in golf; Tiger was, and now is again, the biggest name in all of sports.

> > >

> > >

> > Mr. Palmer graced the covers of more than a few non-golf/sports magazines and he was also one of GQ’s “Twenty-Five Coolest Athletes of All-Time.”

> >

> > Jack & Tiger??

> >

> > Yea, right, lmao.

> Thanks for the great cover photos. I was just a young kid when my dad took me to my first PGA event, the 1963 LA Open, which Arnie won. Most people today are used to seeing Arnie as a genial old man, and don't realize what a **** symbol he was. The GQ cover gives you an idea. The women were absolutely flocking around him. My dad jokingly warned me to watch out for the puddles.

>

> So I understand what you're saying, but you're still wrong. Arnie was the perfect guy to come along just when golf was starting to be shown on TV, and golf can never repay its debt to him. There is also no question that he was infinitely more fan friendly than Tiger.

>

> But that doesn't change the fact that Arnie was a golf star, and Tiger was a superstar. I said in my last post that he wasn't just the biggest name in golf, but the biggest name in sports. But it was even beyond that. For a while, he was one of the biggest celebrities of any kind, period, as big as any rock star or movie star. The only athletes who may have been bigger in their times were Ali and Ruth. Tiger's name became part of the vernacular --- if somebody won, say, a Nobel Prize, then articles trying to explain things for a non-scientific audience would say he was the Tiger Woods of physics. I never saw that with Arnie or Jack.

 

We tend to see what we want to see in these types of discussions and I never looked at anyone with a differing opinion from mine as being “wrong,” any more than I see myself as being “right,” lol.

 

I didn’t realize that this was a right/wrong, black/white situation, lolol ?

 

Apologies as I forgot for a second where I was, lmao???

 

Anyhoo, if indeed I am judged by my peers to be wrong, so be it, I’m good with it, lolol?

 

Arnold Palmer transcended the game and sport in which he participated and put the game on the map for the every day “Joe.”

 

One thing that Tiger had and while it may not be at the pre-hydrant level cuz that whole situation shook him to his core however there is absolutely no one who ever Played for Pay that intimidated like Tiger, without even hitting a shot.

 

That’s why I was so happy to see him s*** it down yesterday cuz I get tired of listening to these kids chirpin about how all these twenty somethings were too young to remember THE Tiger, lmao.

 

Well, Yesterday May or may not have been THE Tiger, but it was better than anyone else on planet earth had to offer. For a golfer, he rewrote the book on intimidation and no one is even close, including my GOAT, lol.

 

Also, I’ve never ridden shotgun nor been a wingman for anyone, nor would I, though for one of the Twenty-Five Coolest Athletes ever??

 

Yea, I’d run wing for an evening on the town with Mr. Palmer, lol

 

Provided Maddie was ok with it, lolol??

 

Stay well?

RP

 

 

 

 

[jjr]

I'm with writer Tom Callahan.

" When Woods won the U.S. Open by 15 shots and then a month later the British Open by eight, to me there’s nothing on Jack Nicklaus’s resume that can touch that. I kind of put my money on what Tom Watson said. He and Nicklaus were at an event watching Tiger on a TV monitor, and Watson turned to Nicklaus, and said, “Bear, he’s the best, isn’t he?” And Jack said, “Yes, he is.” "

[Mr. Grumpy]

This is my perspective, I'm not speaking for all fans...

This is why I should not post in threads like this. It soon becomes nostalgic pissing contest - Either new to history or you walked to school 5 miles in snow barefoot. Every generation has a KING in sports and a few of those transcend that title. Even fewer are those that go farther and transform that sport from all angles, spectators to players. It's bigger than a number and is really, really hard to quantify.

As a kid,I had sports idols. Rod Carew, Catfish Hunter, Reggie Jackson, Dr. J, etc. etc. etc. Did they transform the game from all angles? My answer would be no, but they were fantastic to watch and excelled in their sport to the highest levels.

I think much of this consideration of GOAT is a modern thing which had us older folk step up to defend our eras champions. I am fortunate enough to admire players from the late 60's on, but my first "holy crap" realization was watching Jordan. I mean, I am a sports fan, but many of my fellow artists care nothing about sports. Jordan was the first to actually entice us to have parties to watch him play. He was among many other greats, but none of them drew the wide attention, and that includes Bird and Magic. Jordan had it all and ushered many non sports watchers to a seat at the game.

 

I freakin dig Arnie and Jack, plus others, but I was usually the only one of my group who regularly sought out the footage or watched tv coverage of golf. Tiger changed this much like Jordan. There was a huge swing to the game by those usually not interested. Other golfers noticed too and changed the way they did business, as did the producers and sponsors.

 

I place Tiger in that GOAT territory because of this.. It's not just about Majors to me.. I may be alone thinking like this and that is fine. I dunno,, this is my quick trip down memory lane.

I am thankful these conversations inspire that. Thanks!

[jmvargas]

In over-all golf ability wise Tiger has the edge over Jack ...

why?..his short game is much much better..

 

in all other aspects of the game they were pretty close but their biggest advantage vs the rest is their mental strength---no other golfer comes close!!

 

and that' s why they are the TGOAT---Two Greatest Of All Time!!

 

[Hawkeye77]

Arnold Palmer transcended golf and yes, a "superstar". Visible, known, marketable, whatever over 60+ years and up there with the big boys in other sports in endorsement income, for example, LONG after he won his last PGA Tour event. He is a phenomenon of sport.

 

This article just talks about money, but interesting. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2017/12/13/the-25-highest-paid-athletes-of-all-time/#38aa46894b64

 

And just talking about money doesn't do Arnold justice. So yes, on the list of iconic men in sport he has always been up there and still is. Don't know how anyone else defines "superstar" but his pic would be in the dictionary along with very few others as one of the first modern (and continuing) examples.

 

Read up on almost every article written when Arnold Palmer passed - what word was used to describe him as often as any other if not more? "Superstar" - bestowed by virtually every form of media from sport and across all genres of media.

 

He was more often than not referred to as "superstar" or "living legend" most of the later years of his life and before.

 

Too much smoke and a very real fire!

 

RIP.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

The question of the day is how did I come to the site this evening to find it very -------- red/pink/I don't know what? It's like the aisle only my wife used to shop in at Walmart.