The GOAT (merged)

[redfirebird08]

> @lowheel said:

> > @redfirebird08 said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > I cant wait to see what he can do in the other majors this year to get a real idea. People who criticized him for taking a few weeks off for his neck can now see hes taking his health super seriously and wont risk playing in regular events if hes not 100%. its not worth it. Moving forward he should keep doing this.That will be his best chance at peaking at majors. As for your last sentence, he will not retire, come on!!! Guys like Phil and tiger will be in a wheel chair before they hang it up. they live for these opportunities

> >

> > Yeah, I don't think winning today will make him want to "quit on top" so to speak. I think it will fuel his fire to win more of these events in the future. Today must be a huge confidence boost for him. He got major payback on Koepka & Molinari for last year's majors.

> >

> > I agree 100% on the strategy with his schedule. Gotta protect his health. Regular events are just practice for him now. **I like what he's doing with his driver swing now too, which seems to help protect his back. Swing 80% instead of 100%. Also helps find more fairways. **

> yup thats the key. He checked his ego last year and changed shafts.

>

 

I have been wanting to see it for years. At some point you just gotta admit that the younger guys are stronger off the tee. But Tiger is still arguably the best iron player on the planet and arguably the smartest player on the planet. He now has a great short game again too. These are big time strengths.

 

He doesn't need to keep pace with the DJ/Koepka/McIlroy/Finau brigade off the tee. But he absolutely needs to watch out for his health! Smooth swing can help that in a big way while also putting him in better position (fairway).

 

[FargoRC]

Yeah, I think a big change is that he no longer cares or wants to overpower the golf course. He is attacking golf courses with his strengths, he was surgical on the back nine today. If he had this mentality 10 years ago, he would have 20 majors right now.

[lowheel]

> @youdamantiger said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @playa said:

> > > All doubt has been removed, Tiger is the greatest golfer to ever play the game. The way he dismantled that field on the back nine, at 43 years of age, is the greatest achievement in golf I've witnessed in my lifetime.

> > > Hopefully a few of the debates about Tiger that have been floating around here can now be put to bed. Today proves that prime Tiger would have crushed today's fields, and that it wasn't that the old fields were weaker, it's just that Tiger was and still is that good. Today he applied the blow torch on the back nine and they all collapsed under the pressure. Tiger coasted to the line today and crushed them without getting out of second gear, imagine what 2000 Tiger would do to these guys. He didn't even need the extra intimidation of Stevie on the bag to get it done ?

> > >

> > > In all honesty I think may be his last one, you could see how much it took out of him emotionally, and he said he has to get up at 4.45am just to have time to get his body ready for play. I got the impression that he had a point to prove, and now he's proven it he might give it all away. He has nothing more to prove, it wouldn't surprise me to see him retire. He came into majors on top winning his first attempt in 97, going out with a green jacket would be fitting.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Im super happy for him getting his jack in 86 monent but the hyperbole in your post is hilarious. You dont need to diminish Jack to elevate Tiger. It sounds like a desperate plea.If he finished 2nd today youd be saying the same thing.The debate is not closed.Lets enjoy the win and see what happens next. It could be his jack in 86 moment or he can possibly add to it. No one knows. He shot a 1 under 35 on the back with bookend bogeys."Hardly dismantled the field"on the back. He did what he had to and the guy in front backed up. Everything fell into place and he took his medicine when he had to. Molinari was up by 2 on 12, and had the honors, there was no torch applied, lets not rewrite what we just watched.I hope he breaks Jacks record or heck even tying it would be great but whether you like it or not today didnt settle anything.It added to his legacy.The thing im happiest about is that he came from behind finally in a major. He made some mistakes today but was steady.Played within himself and didnt give much away. I cant wait to see what he can do in the other majors this year to get a real idea. People who criticized him for taking a few weeks off for his neck can now see hes taking his health super seriously and wont risk playing in regular events if hes not 100%. its not worth it. Moving forward he should keep doing this.That will be his best chance at peaking at majors. As for your last sentence, he will not retire, come on!!! Guys like Phil and tiger will be in a wheel chair before they hang it up. they live for these opportunities

>

> I agree that today's events did nothing to change the minds of those in the eternal Jack vs Tiger Debate. Those who consider Jack the GOAT still have their 18>15 and those on Tiger's side of the fence only find their opinion bolstered by his win.

>

> The thing that makes Tiger so hard to beat at Augusta is that he simply never puts a big number in play. His career final round scoring average at Augusta is 70.3. Which means he's not going to go out there on Sunday and try to shoot a 65 by firing at No-No pins like Phil would do, but he's also not going to put a triple on the card like Phil would do. Nobody within striking distance this year put any heat on. The lowest round shot among the top 5-10 guys was a 68.

 

The scary part is that despite that its been 13 years since hes won there.Sure hes contended in a few but never in the last 2-3 groups for over 13 years.it shows how hard it is.Last 25 winners i think have come from the top 5 entering sunday. no margin for error. Thats why in the other i didnt vote yes or no if he would win another major because i knew he could but i didnt know if he would but i said he had to be in the last group in the lead or tied or barely behind and i figured his best chance is the masters as it is a limited field and he knows every corner of the place and he could catch fire. I never thought hed win like he did today though.I figured hed go full phil on a sunday and shoot a 31 on the back and walk it in with a hot putter. he really grinded it out today, very disciplined. Experience matters at augusta and hes got plenty

[Fairways_and_Greens]

We need another Tiger thread.

[dropkicked]


 

[JAMH03]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “What's been lost in recent discussion is all of Jacks top 3 finishes”

>

> This is mentioned almost nonstop since about 1999.

 

Looks like you're making my point... who else's top 5s do we track? Why or why not?

[JAMH03]

> @"A.Princey" said:

> Tiger's closing the actual WIN gap, better start pulling out obscure feats of losing, but being incredibly close to winning. It's called losing for a reason, don't add it to an argument about winning, please. Majors and wins only, Jack has Tiger until Tiger gets 18.

>

> /thread.

 

TW is making a move on Snead that is very impressive, chances of four more Majors are miniscule to the point of not worth talking about.

[Golfjack]

> @lowheel said:

> The scary part is that despite that its been 13 years since hes won there.Sure hes contended in a few but never in the last 2-3 groups for over 13 years.it shows how hard it is.Last 25 winners i think have come from the top 5 entering sunday. no margin for error. Thats why in the other i didnt vote yes or no if he would win another major because i knew he could but i didnt know if he would but i said he had to be in the last group in the lead or tied or barely behind and i figured his best chance is the masters as it is a limited field and he knows every corner of the place and he could catch fire. I never thought hed win like he did today though.I figured hed go full phil on a sunday and shoot a 31 on the back and walk it in with a hot putter. he really grinded it out today, very disciplined. Experience matters at augusta and hes got plenty

 

His composure was amazing. Molinari collapsed, and so did Finau although he did come back. Brooks was up and down and ultimately was a stroke or two short. Even DJ was surging from behind. Xander went at it too but didn't nail his shots last couple of holes. It was a very busy leaderboard and Tiger being able to win it has to be one of his best wins ever. Circumstances and all. He even missed a couple of putts last two holes which were very makable. His final score could have been 2 shots better easily. For them to finish this ahead of the weather was a true blessing. It made the win that much better too without extending into Monday.

Now it's time to win another few! He knows he's not getting any younger and not going at it as hard anymore. But if he keeps his iron game sharp as ever, it won't matter.

[bladehunter]

I don’t really need to gloat. Celebrate. ? Yes. But I’m not a big sore loser or sore winner. Those that were full of poopy know who they are. No need to tell them ... until .... they pop back up and forget ...

[golfnoob25]

How hard will it be?

 

[Hawkeye77]

Probably reworking the formula tonight.

[mosesgolf]

His win at Bethpage and Pebble should take care of #1. :wink:

[bladehunter]

If rose doesn’t break the current trend he will move to #5 pretty quickly. Lol.

[redfirebird08]

I would think he doesn't care at all about the rankings other than getting into big events like the U.S. Open or WGC's. All about staying healthy and peaking for majors. That's his only priority in golf now.

[RobotDoctor]

> @youdamantiger said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @playa said:

> > > All doubt has been removed, Tiger is the greatest golfer to ever play the game. The way he dismantled that field on the back nine, at 43 years of age, is the greatest achievement in golf I've witnessed in my lifetime.

> > > Hopefully a few of the debates about Tiger that have been floating around here can now be put to bed. Today proves that prime Tiger would have crushed today's fields, and that it wasn't that the old fields were weaker, it's just that Tiger was and still is that good. Today he applied the blow torch on the back nine and they all collapsed under the pressure. Tiger coasted to the line today and crushed them without getting out of second gear, imagine what 2000 Tiger would do to these guys. He didn't even need the extra intimidation of Stevie on the bag to get it done ?

> > >

> > > In all honesty I think may be his last one, you could see how much it took out of him emotionally, and he said he has to get up at 4.45am just to have time to get his body ready for play. I got the impression that he had a point to prove, and now he's proven it he might give it all away. He has nothing more to prove, it wouldn't surprise me to see him retire. He came into majors on top winning his first attempt in 97, going out with a green jacket would be fitting.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Im super happy for him getting his jack in 86 monent but the hyperbole in your post is hilarious. You dont need to diminish Jack to elevate Tiger. It sounds like a desperate plea.If he finished 2nd today youd be saying the same thing.The debate is not closed.Lets enjoy the win and see what happens next. It could be his jack in 86 moment or he can possibly add to it. No one knows. He shot a 1 under 35 on the back with bookend bogeys."Hardly dismantled the field"on the back. He did what he had to and the guy in front backed up. Everything fell into place and he took his medicine when he had to. Molinari was up by 2 on 12, and had the honors, there was no torch applied, lets not rewrite what we just watched.I hope he breaks Jacks record or heck even tying it would be great but whether you like it or not today didnt settle anything.It added to his legacy.The thing im happiest about is that he came from behind finally in a major. He made some mistakes today but was steady.Played within himself and didnt give much away. I cant wait to see what he can do in the other majors this year to get a real idea. People who criticized him for taking a few weeks off for his neck can now see hes taking his health super seriously and wont risk playing in regular events if hes not 100%. its not worth it. Moving forward he should keep doing this.That will be his best chance at peaking at majors. As for your last sentence, he will not retire, come on!!! Guys like Phil and tiger will be in a wheel chair before they hang it up. they live for these opportunities

>

> I agree that today's events did nothing to change the minds of those in the eternal Jack vs Tiger Debate. Those who consider Jack the GOAT still have their 18>15 and those on Tiger's side of the fence only find their opinion bolstered by his win.

>

> The thing that makes Tiger so hard to beat at Augusta is that he simply never puts a big number in play. His career final round scoring average at Augusta is 70.3. Which means he's not going to go out there on Sunday and try to shoot a 65 by firing at No-No pins like Phil would do, but he's also not going to put a triple on the card like Phil would do. Nobody within striking distance this year put any heat on. The lowest round shot among the top 5-10 guys was a 68.

 

What Tiger finally did today for the first time is what Jack did on a regular basis during his major championship career. He played well enough to make his presence known and the leaders faltered because of it. Did Tiger Woods play absolutely outstanding golf today, say like Nicklaus in 1986? No. The final 9 today was steady with timely birdies and smart shots. His play caused the field to make the mistakes and Tiger seized on their errors. Tiger was finally able to shed the “never winning a major trailing after 54 holes” monkey off his back. Tiger didn’t force good fortune to happen. He was patient. Because of this he was able to seize the opportunity and win the 2019 Masters tournament. It was a real pleasure to watch the Masters today.

[OrangeGravy]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @MaxBuck said:

> > > @youdamantiger said:

> > > I posted this after the 2018 Tour Championship:

> > >

> > > "The top 29 players in the world got beat today by a 42 year old man only 18 months removed from a spinal fusion and five years removed from his last win. Among the current crop of pros there isn't a truly generational player in the bunch. The only one to have even a remote claim to that title is Rory and he enjoys that status only because he went through two 10 month stretches during his career in which he putted half-way decent. These guys are simply posers. Just placeholders to bridge the gap between Tiger and Phil and the next era of history-book players. Similar to the way the players in the mid 90's bridged the gap between the era of Watson, Ballesteros, and Faldo and the era of Tiger and Phil.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Going forward, I hope Tiger gets back to number one and beats these guys like a drum. Just to show them what excellence, grit, and ​consistency really mean. I used to believe Tiger would have a hard time competing on the current Tour because these 'young guns' were sooo good. In short, I bought the hype. I realize now that I was wrong. They're pretenders content to cash their six-figure checks for second place and Instagram their brocations in the Bahamas. I'm sure a crop of players will emerge in the near future and take the game of golf to new heights of greatness but this current generation is about as bland as lukewarm tap water. If they enter the final round 10 shots out of the lead you can bet your **** they'll shoot a 64. If they're two shots off the lead heading into the final round you can bet your **** they'll shoot a 74. In the grand sweep of golf history these guys are going to be nothing but a blip on the radar. They have talent a mile wide and desire an inch deep."

> > >

> > > I posted this after Phil won in Mexico this year:

> > >

> > > "Not really apropos of his schedule but I was just thinking about how amusing it is that folks here spend so much time fluffing this new generation and how hard it is to compete on Tour and how everyone is so fit and how these bloodthirsty young golfers will rip your head off and **** down your neck. Yet last September they got beat by a 43 year old semi-retired dude coming off a back fusion. Then this week they got beat by a 48 year old fat guy with Psoriatic arthritis."

> > >

> > > Seems entirely appropriate to repost those now. Whether you come down on the Jack or the Tiger side of the GOAT debate, I think we can all agree that the current generation of players on Tour are soft as Charmin. Their musical chair mediocrity was laid bare today. bscinstnct made a really great point in another thread today when he said that, with this Masters win, Tiger destroyed "the mentality" that believes it's impossible to dominate on the modern Tour. And that's so true. It's that same mentality that made the generation of Faxon, Couples, Love, Wadkins, Jacobsen, et.al a placeholder generation. They thought the Tour couldn't be dominated either. Then Phil and Tiger came along and said "Eff that."

> > >

> > > I've heard the argument that because more players are participating now and the game has gone worldwide that the talent pool is much deeper and therefore pro golf can't be dominated like in the past. If that's true can someone please explain the NBA? It has hundreds of millions more participants than golf. There are youth NBA camps in almost every country in the world developing burgeoning talent. Basketball is more popular worldwide than golf, it is easier and cheaper to play, it has grown exponentially in popularity and participation the past 20 years, and the number of foreign players in the NBA have exploded. And yet there are still superstars in the NBA dominating the game.

> > >

> > > There is nothing inherently unique about the game of golf that insulates it from being dominated. Every field of human endeavor, from the arts to the sciences to sports has giants who stand head and shoulders above the crowd. Why would golf be any different? Looked at another way, over the past 10 decades, from the 1920s to the 2010s, golf has only had two decades (the 1990s and the 2010s) with no dominant players. The other eight decades did have dominant players. So why would anyone think non-dominance is the norm?

> > >

> > > Like bscinstnct said, the only thing holding back these players is their mentality. They're shackled by their own lack of self-belief. They're content. And contentment is the enemy of excellence. I have no doubt that within 10 years a young player will show up and beat the **** out of these guys. And they'll look around wide-eyed, wondering if anyone got the plate number of the bus that hit them.

> >

> > I'm honestly dismayed by the notion that appreciating the excellence of the winner isn't enough; it's obligatory also to depreciate those who failed to win.

>

> But this has been a long time coming.

>

> **Look, the young guns have no frame of reference. I dont blame them. Even the media got sucked into the notion that these guys are all so damm good, its as good as it gets.**

>

> Then

>

> Along comes old man, 4 back surgery, knee surgery, no acl, couldnt walk much less play not long ago, covered with mental scar tissue

>

> Tiger Woods

>

> And trashes them all in their primes and in their house ; )

>

> Makes us (and them) think a little. Right?

 

The bolded is the part that is lost in translation when discussing that young guns vs old guys. I don't think anyone on either side would credit any of the young gun hype to the players themselves. This 100% on the GOLF media hype machine in their panic to keep the momentum when Tiger started on his decline. In discussions (specially in written word only) it reads as trashing the players themselves, but I don't think anyone or at least very few carry that view.

 

I like many of the young guys, but personally really love the old guys getting their licks in. As a 45 year old, it gives my grumpy old man side great pleasure. The Young guys will get more than their fair share of the bounty going forward.

[playa]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “What's been lost in recent discussion is all of Jacks top 3 finishes”

>

> This is mentioned almost nonstop since about 1999.

 

And we will be brought up more the closer Tiger gets to 19 majors. The scary thing about Tiger is that if you are brutally honest, he lost 10 of his best years through injury and off course issues, and it could be argued that he actually has under achieved with 15 majors to this point. This week showed what he could have done over that time if his body was good. He didn't just get hot and fluke the win, he played sustained, high level, pressure golf that you get the impression he could easily repeat in other majors. I have said that he might be done after this one cause of his injury issues, but it wouldn't be hard to imagine at least 5 more majors if the injuries and other stuff never happened. 1 major every 2 years for a fit and healthy Tiger over those years would be low balling it.

[redfirebird08]

> @playa said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > “What's been lost in recent discussion is all of Jacks top 3 finishes”

> >

> > This is mentioned almost nonstop since about 1999.

>

> And we will be brought up more the closer Tiger gets to 19 majors. The scary thing about Tiger is that if you are brutally honest, he lost 10 of his best years through injury and off course issues, and it could be argued that he actually has under achieved with 15 majors to this point. This week showed what he could have done over that time if his body was good. He didn't just get hot and fluke the win, he played sustained, high level, pressure golf that you get the impression he could easily repeat in other majors. I have said that he might be done after this one cause of his injury issues, but it wouldn't be hard to imagine at least 5 more majors if the injuries and other stuff never happened. 1 major every 2 years for a fit and healthy Tiger over those years would be low balling it.

 

 

He also threw away 3 prime years on swing changes that he began right after winning 7 of 11 majors. One wonders how it would have played out if he stayed with Butch and didn't keep tinkering with the golf swing.

 

[hell_is_chrome]

> @lowheel said:

> > @hell_is_chrome said:

> > > @Ghostwedge said:

> > > Last i checked..... most guys measure GOAT by World Series, NBA Championships, Super Bowls and MAJORS won. Still 18-15 fan boys.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Do you really believe Bill Russell is better than Jordan?

>

> team sports versus individual sports is always the go to move in these debates and is disingenuous...

 

The person I replied to mentioned team championships in reference to GOAT status. I had no intention of being disingenuous.

[hell_is_chrome]

> @"A.Princey" said:

> I half wondered when I went to sleep last night, did Tiger make a deal with the devil to get back here, I'm dead serious.

 

My mom used to say that Tiger and Earl made a deal with the devil. I'm not sure if you can make a second deal.

[Hubijerk]

> @hell_is_chrome said:

> > @"A.Princey" said:

> > I half wondered when I went to sleep last night, did Tiger make a deal with the devil to get back here, I'm dead serious.

>

> My mom used to say that Tiger and Earl made a deal with the devil. I'm not sure if you can make a second deal.

 

Notah Begay says negotiations are ongoing.

[TheInfidel]

I for one am eating some crow on my toast this morning.

Beating his own path on the technical re-build of his swing post surgery is something that I was surprised at. At the end of the day TWs best game on the back 9 of a major seperates him from everyone else, plenty of people have let a major come to them, but TW went out there and took it, owned it. He will forever be the GOAT in that regard.

 

Excited to see him at the major venues later in 2019 which he has already said he's a fan of. Some have said that no one moves the needle like Tiger. In the modern era Tiger is the needle, he commands the movement.

[mosesgolf]

How about Jack and Tiger are the two GOATS?

Jack has his 18 but Tigers 15 imo were in a bigger and tougher field. Plus Tiger just beat one of the most talented and stacked leaderboards ever. And Tigers isn’t done yet.

 

Jack has 1986 and Tiger has 2019. These are two of the most iconic wins at Augusta. They’re both eerily similar in their mental toughness and their ability to will a win. They just knew/know how to win. There is no wrong choice in saying who is GOAT. If Tiger gets to 18 I give it to Tiger and if Tiger gets to 19 no more arguments. Until then it’s a tie.

[Dave230]

I don't know if Tiger is better than Jack, I would say at his best he was, over their careers it's pretty much dead even at this point, but Tiger still has a few years left potentially to push ahead. What I'm pretty sure of, however, is that there will be no player after Tiger that will be greater than him until pretty much the day I die. Can't envisage another player getting that close to him.

 

Could see another great player who may only be a kid now who may not have been born yet getting to 50/60 wins/10-12 majors, but I just can't see anyone touching the greatness of performance over a career.

[3jacker]

Jack has said Tiger is a better golfer than he was.

Tiger has never said Jack was better than him.

I don't see how you can argue with the 2 principals to that matter.

[Ferguson]

Tiger will retire in 2026 as the Goat with 92 wins and 19 majors. A record that will NEVER be touched.

The next 4 majors:

16 - PGA 2019

17 - Masters 2020 (yes, he will repeat)

18 - British 2021

19 - Masters 2022

 

[legitimategolf]

> @"15th Club" said:

> > @legitimategolf said:

> > Beating this current era makes a strong argument for GOAT. Look at this leaderboard goddamnit.

>

> When Nicklaus won the 1975 Masters, the Sunday round started with this leaderboard:

> Weiskopf

> Nicklaus*

> J. Miller*

> Watson*

> Casper *

> Nichols

> Allin

> Green*

> A. Miller

> Palmer*

> Trevino*

> *Member of the World Golf Hall of Fame. Six hall of famers in addition to Nicklaus. And Bobby Nichols and Tom Weiskopf, both major winners, are arguable hall of fame material.

 

Pfft. Can any of those guys bench 225, or dunk a basketball? That's what I thought.

[Hawkeye77]

> @legitimategolf said:

> > @"15th Club" said:

> > > @legitimategolf said:

> > > Beating this current era makes a strong argument for GOAT. Look at this leaderboard goddamnit.

> >

> > When Nicklaus won the 1975 Masters, the Sunday round started with this leaderboard:

> > Weiskopf

> > Nicklaus*

> > J. Miller*

> > Watson*

> > Casper *

> > Nichols

> > Allin

> > Green*

> > A. Miller

> > Palmer*

> > Trevino*

> > *Member of the World Golf Hall of Fame. Six hall of famers in addition to Nicklaus. And Bobby Nichols and Tom Weiskopf, both major winners, are arguable hall of fame material.

>

> Pfft. Can any of those guys bench 225, or dunk a basketball? That's what I thought.

 

Well, Lucy Van Pelt, unlike Beethoven I'm pretty sure many of them had their pictures on bubblegum cards!

 

Seriously, it's about who plays the best golf and the context of the era. And a guy who can't do what you just described just beat all those other guys (and I'd bet there are easily less than a handful on the PGA Tour who can dunk, as if that matters, lol). Way too much being assumed about how much the current PGA pros are versatile athletes and the extent to which they are.

[3jacker]

Yup. Give them the new ball and 460cc drivers and all of a sudden they're uber athletes which didn't exist until this century.

[redfirebird08]

> @3jacker said:

> Jack has said Tiger is a better golfer than he was.

> Tiger has never said Jack was better than him.

> I don't see how you can argue with the 2 principals to that matter.

 

Actually, Tiger's response to that question was simply "He has 18, I have 14." Guess we can say that is now 18-15 and we'll see where it goes from here.