The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[scotee]

[quote name='teckneeklyperfect' timestamp='1400867232' post='9355069']
Most PED's ( steroids )= modern medicine. Someday all this won't even be an issue, someday
[/quote]

You may be right. I'll have a little of what he is taking.

[attachment=2239213:Screen Shot 2014-05-23 at 11.09.45 AM.png]

[golfortennis]

[quote name='teckneeklyperfect' timestamp='1400867232' post='9355069']
Most PED's ( steroids )= modern medicine. Someday all this won't even be an issue, someday
[/quote]

This is where things start to get a little....not sur eo fthe term I want to use, but, confusing? After all, you hear of a couple of athletes using stuff, and all of a sudden, politicians looking to make a name for themselves are calling for banning this, banning that..... except that "this" or "that" can have some very real, very defensible, and very positive medical effects on people's lives. You have to start to question whether the fact a few guys tried to use it to hit a ball a little further, or whatever they used it for, is a good enough reason to throw out all the good that can comes from these things.

I'm almost wondering if we will start seeing professional athletes becoming the race cars of the human population. Nearly every advance in automobiles in the last half century can trace its roots back to development in auto racing. Perhaps athletes will be sort of the same "testing ground."

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400853934' post='9353533']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1400823723' post='9352219']
[quote name='pmo09' timestamp='1400647405' post='9337287']
Hopefully the name of this thread isn't breaking any rules, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Every time there is any type of article regarding Woods, there are always a ton of comments saying he uses steroids/PEDs, or other illegal substances and that is why he has accomplished what he has. Look, nobody knows the real truth except for Tiger, but the key point I want to make is that there is [b]literally no evidence, or hint of evidence to suggest that he has not been clean his entire career.[/b]

Take a minute to take that all in.

Those who argue for PED use tend to make 2 general arguments:[list]
[*]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005
[*]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED abuse
[/list]
Lets break these down into why they are ridiculous arguments

[u][b]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005[/b][/u]
This is the most common argument, and my favourite to dissect because it shows how little people actually know about fitness, and how desperately they feel the need to discredit others accomplishments to make themselves feel better.

First of all, yes, unquestionably Tiger got bigger from his first masters victory in 1997, to about 2005. What people need to understand, is that Tiger went from around 140lbs, to about 180-190lbs in 2005. At 6'1, 140lbs is grossly underweight, and 180-190 is normal. This is not taking into account for an athletic build.

Obviously, Tiger likes to workout, a fact that has been well documented over the years. To gain 40 pounds in 8 years is by no means suspicious, especially with a dedicated weight regime. He did not suddenly become big, it was very gradual. Also, Tiger is not at big as the media and TV people say he is. All this "football linebacker" and bodybuilder talk is incredibly exaggerated. 6'1 185lbs is nothing more than athletic. If you saw that walking down the street (and I bet you do every single day), you wouldn't look twice.

Adding fuel to the fire is that there is probably no other player on tour that looks like Tiger. Nobody else has lifted for power and explosiveness in the way in which he has. The media tries to play up guys like Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland as guys who are real muscular players, but in reality are beanpole thin. Then, there was the Camilo Villegagas 'bodybuilder' like talk for a period of 2008-2010. I would be surprised if camilo weighed more than 140lbs soaking wet

Secondly, part of human psychology is that people always like to try and discredit the accomplishments of others by blaming it on external factors to make themselves feel better. People see what they want to see, and if that means blaming all the majors on PED use rather than hard work and effort, than so be it. My questions is this - was Tiger on PED's when he was 2 and on national TV for his golf ability? What about when he was 5 and beating 10 year olds in local events? How about when he was winning state championships and US amateurs?

[u][b]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED Abuse[/b][/u]
In short - No, it doesn't.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim a 38 year old, aging athletes injuries are from PED use rather than from wear and tear on his body. Aside from golfing every day for probably almost his entire life, he was known to run 6 miles a day in his 20's, as well as to participate in Navy SEAL training missions (and in Haney's book, he mentions that Tiger's knee issues were caused from a Navy seal kicking him in the knee while off balance). Correlation does not mean causation.

He's getting old for his sport. He probably has 10 years ahead of him to be competitive, but like any athlete, he's done a lot to his body. To simply blame it on PED's is not only unfounded, but an insult to any other athlete who has seen performance suffer due to injury in his later years.


So lets say, for arguments sake, that Tiger did take some sort of PED in his career - what would the benefits be? Specifically speaking about steroids, they promote increased muscle development. Would this make Tiger hit the ball further? Maybe, but guys like Bubba, Mcilroy, and John Daly have shown us all sorts of body types get the job done in regards to distance. Surely they wouldn't help Tiger with his short game, putting, or focus. So what real benefit would that leave? A potential for an increase in distance? That's a really weak argument.
[/quote]
I don't have an opinion either way but I think you should include his dodgy doctor when mentioning arguments that has did take PEDs. That's almost a smoking gun.
[/quote]


You mean the "dodgy doctor" who has never accused Tiger of doing anything illegal, and has said DIRECTLY that Tiger had not...and that the only thing he did for Tiger was to spin down blood and inject platelets concentrates into his knee.

(a "treatment" that probably did nothing but seperate Tiger from his money).
[/quote]

The dodgy doctor who denied giving Tiger PEDs like Victor Conte denied giving Bonds PEDs, and the dodgy doctors who denied Lance Armstrong's doping.

[epixep]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1400865353' post='9354897']
epixep, none of those directly help you score. Well, not on the course anyway. But depending what you take, they can make a world of difference in your ability to work out, recover, and/or practice a lot more. Like someone said earlier, he outworked everybody(or is the conventional wisdom). How much is "outwork"? 500 balls a day? 1,000? How many hours spent on the short game?

A guy with that violent a swing who has lived on a driving range since he was about 7 practicing might want to figure out a way to make sure he can still put in as much practice as he can.

There is no benefit to him directly from a strength perspective. Between the quality of his swing, the angles he creates, he has more than enough power for anything. He didn't want/need to get any longer. His increase in size is not something that can't be done by anyone who is religious about going to the gym.

Whatever he took, if he did(I think he did-the doctor connection is just wayyyyy too coincidental), he did so to ensure he could practice as hard as he always did/wanted to, and not be worn out by the time the tournaments came around.

Think about the last time any of you spent more than 2 hours on the range. My guess is 95%(including myself) are anywhere from sore to out of commission the next day. Now multiply that by likely at least 3, and do that day after day after day...... something is going to break down. Unless....
[/quote]

Personally, I think you're way off base. Hitting balls for hours and hours in the heat can be very exhausting. That being said, thousands of junior, collegiate, and professional players do it daily. Hitting balls for four hours isn't that bad after your body adjusts to the workload. Is it easy? No, it requires a great work ethic, a little fitness, a decent diet and time. It's far from impossible.

Now keep in mind, Tiger's body has adopted to the golf swing far more than we can imagine. He's probably been practicing for 6+ hours a in day since he was in middle school. Add his outstanding work ethic, his fitness levels, and he access to the best facilities and trainers that money can buy... he doesn't need PEDs.

I'll add: Tiger didn't outwork everyone. That is the public's ignorant way of explaining why he is/was the best golfer alive. Tiger had the strongest self-confidence out of anyone he's played with, and one of the most solid and practiced mental games ever. He won with his head, his creativity and his ability to focus. It's simple and easy to think X number of hours = greatness, but that's why the average handicap is higher than the average GDP.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400869387' post='9355345']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400853934' post='9353533']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1400823723' post='9352219']
[quote name='pmo09' timestamp='1400647405' post='9337287']
Hopefully the name of this thread isn't breaking any rules, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Every time there is any type of article regarding Woods, there are always a ton of comments saying he uses steroids/PEDs, or other illegal substances and that is why he has accomplished what he has. Look, nobody knows the real truth except for Tiger, but the key point I want to make is that there is [b]literally no evidence, or hint of evidence to suggest that he has not been clean his entire career.[/b]

Take a minute to take that all in.

Those who argue for PED use tend to make 2 general arguments:[list]
[*]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005
[*]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED abuse
[/list]
Lets break these down into why they are ridiculous arguments

[u][b]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005[/b][/u]
This is the most common argument, and my favourite to dissect because it shows how little people actually know about fitness, and how desperately they feel the need to discredit others accomplishments to make themselves feel better.

First of all, yes, unquestionably Tiger got bigger from his first masters victory in 1997, to about 2005. What people need to understand, is that Tiger went from around 140lbs, to about 180-190lbs in 2005. At 6'1, 140lbs is grossly underweight, and 180-190 is normal. This is not taking into account for an athletic build.

Obviously, Tiger likes to workout, a fact that has been well documented over the years. To gain 40 pounds in 8 years is by no means suspicious, especially with a dedicated weight regime. He did not suddenly become big, it was very gradual. Also, Tiger is not at big as the media and TV people say he is. All this "football linebacker" and bodybuilder talk is incredibly exaggerated. 6'1 185lbs is nothing more than athletic. If you saw that walking down the street (and I bet you do every single day), you wouldn't look twice.

Adding fuel to the fire is that there is probably no other player on tour that looks like Tiger. Nobody else has lifted for power and explosiveness in the way in which he has. The media tries to play up guys like Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland as guys who are real muscular players, but in reality are beanpole thin. Then, there was the Camilo Villegagas 'bodybuilder' like talk for a period of 2008-2010. I would be surprised if camilo weighed more than 140lbs soaking wet

Secondly, part of human psychology is that people always like to try and discredit the accomplishments of others by blaming it on external factors to make themselves feel better. People see what they want to see, and if that means blaming all the majors on PED use rather than hard work and effort, than so be it. My questions is this - was Tiger on PED's when he was 2 and on national TV for his golf ability? What about when he was 5 and beating 10 year olds in local events? How about when he was winning state championships and US amateurs?

[u][b]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED Abuse[/b][/u]
In short - No, it doesn't.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim a 38 year old, aging athletes injuries are from PED use rather than from wear and tear on his body. Aside from golfing every day for probably almost his entire life, he was known to run 6 miles a day in his 20's, as well as to participate in Navy SEAL training missions (and in Haney's book, he mentions that Tiger's knee issues were caused from a Navy seal kicking him in the knee while off balance). Correlation does not mean causation.

He's getting old for his sport. He probably has 10 years ahead of him to be competitive, but like any athlete, he's done a lot to his body. To simply blame it on PED's is not only unfounded, but an insult to any other athlete who has seen performance suffer due to injury in his later years.


So lets say, for arguments sake, that Tiger did take some sort of PED in his career - what would the benefits be? Specifically speaking about steroids, they promote increased muscle development. Would this make Tiger hit the ball further? Maybe, but guys like Bubba, Mcilroy, and John Daly have shown us all sorts of body types get the job done in regards to distance. Surely they wouldn't help Tiger with his short game, putting, or focus. So what real benefit would that leave? A potential for an increase in distance? That's a really weak argument.
[/quote]
I don't have an opinion either way but I think you should include his dodgy doctor when mentioning arguments that has did take PEDs. That's almost a smoking gun.
[/quote]


You mean the "dodgy doctor" who has never accused Tiger of doing anything illegal, and has said DIRECTLY that Tiger had not...and that the only thing he did for Tiger was to spin down blood and inject platelets concentrates into his knee.

(a "treatment" that probably did nothing but seperate Tiger from his money).
[/quote]

The dodgy doctor who denied giving Tiger PEDs like Victor Conte denied giving Bonds PEDs, and the dodgy doctors who denied Lance Armstrong's doping.
[/quote]


But in both of those cases, you had others who were claiming to have witnessed the two of them using banned substances.

There has not been anyone who has had contact with Woods, who claims anything of the sort.

What you are doing is pure McCarthyism: "[i]I've got 70 names....." [/i]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400869695' post='9355393']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1400865353' post='9354897']
epixep, none of those directly help you score. Well, not on the course anyway. But depending what you take, they can make a world of difference in your ability to work out, recover, and/or practice a lot more. Like someone said earlier, he outworked everybody(or is the conventional wisdom). How much is "outwork"? 500 balls a day? 1,000? How many hours spent on the short game?

A guy with that violent a swing who has lived on a driving range since he was about 7 practicing might want to figure out a way to make sure he can still put in as much practice as he can.

There is no benefit to him directly from a strength perspective. Between the quality of his swing, the angles he creates, he has more than enough power for anything. He didn't want/need to get any longer. His increase in size is not something that can't be done by anyone who is religious about going to the gym.

Whatever he took, if he did(I think he did-the doctor connection is just wayyyyy too coincidental), he did so to ensure he could practice as hard as he always did/wanted to, and not be worn out by the time the tournaments came around.

Think about the last time any of you spent more than 2 hours on the range. My guess is 95%(including myself) are anywhere from sore to out of commission the next day. Now multiply that by likely at least 3, and do that day after day after day...... something is going to break down. Unless....
[/quote]

Personally, I think you're way off base. Hitting balls for hours and hours in the heat can be very exhausting. That being said, thousands of junior, collegiate, and professional players do it daily. Hitting balls for four hours isn't that bad after your body adjusts to the workload. Is it easy? No, it requires a great work ethic, a little fitness, a decent diet and time. It's far from impossible.

Now keep in mind, Tiger's body has adopted to the golf swing far more than we can imagine. He's probably been practicing for 6+ hours a in day since he was in middle school. Add his outstanding work ethic, his fitness levels, and he access to the best facilities and trainers that money can buy... he doesn't need PEDs.

I'll add: Tiger didn't outwork everyone. That is the public's ignorant way of explaining why he is/was the best golfer alive. Tiger had the strongest self-confidence out of anyone he's played with, and one of the most solid and practiced mental games ever. He won with his head, his creativity and his ability to focus. It's simple and easy to think X number of hours = greatness, but that's why the average handicap is higher than the average GDP.
[/quote]

The other thing is that Tiger (and Phil Mickelson) started playing golf at the age of 2.

The brain is extremely malleable at that age, so guys like Tiger and Phil likely wind up with larger parts of their brain dedicated to swinging a golf club than does someone who starts playing at an older age.

[PostandGhost]

This thread reminds me of a famous quote: "Those who walk with the wise shall become wise; but a companion of fools suffers harm"

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400871969' post='9355621']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400869387' post='9355345']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400853934' post='9353533']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1400823723' post='9352219']
[quote name='pmo09' timestamp='1400647405' post='9337287']
Hopefully the name of this thread isn't breaking any rules, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Every time there is any type of article regarding Woods, there are always a ton of comments saying he uses steroids/PEDs, or other illegal substances and that is why he has accomplished what he has. Look, nobody knows the real truth except for Tiger, but the key point I want to make is that there is [b]literally no evidence, or hint of evidence to suggest that he has not been clean his entire career.[/b]

Take a minute to take that all in.

Those who argue for PED use tend to make 2 general arguments:[list]
[*]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005
[*]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED abuse
[/list]
Lets break these down into why they are ridiculous arguments

[u][b]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005[/b][/u]
This is the most common argument, and my favourite to dissect because it shows how little people actually know about fitness, and how desperately they feel the need to discredit others accomplishments to make themselves feel better.

First of all, yes, unquestionably Tiger got bigger from his first masters victory in 1997, to about 2005. What people need to understand, is that Tiger went from around 140lbs, to about 180-190lbs in 2005. At 6'1, 140lbs is grossly underweight, and 180-190 is normal. This is not taking into account for an athletic build.

Obviously, Tiger likes to workout, a fact that has been well documented over the years. To gain 40 pounds in 8 years is by no means suspicious, especially with a dedicated weight regime. He did not suddenly become big, it was very gradual. Also, Tiger is not at big as the media and TV people say he is. All this "football linebacker" and bodybuilder talk is incredibly exaggerated. 6'1 185lbs is nothing more than athletic. If you saw that walking down the street (and I bet you do every single day), you wouldn't look twice.

Adding fuel to the fire is that there is probably no other player on tour that looks like Tiger. Nobody else has lifted for power and explosiveness in the way in which he has. The media tries to play up guys like Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland as guys who are real muscular players, but in reality are beanpole thin. Then, there was the Camilo Villegagas 'bodybuilder' like talk for a period of 2008-2010. I would be surprised if camilo weighed more than 140lbs soaking wet

Secondly, part of human psychology is that people always like to try and discredit the accomplishments of others by blaming it on external factors to make themselves feel better. People see what they want to see, and if that means blaming all the majors on PED use rather than hard work and effort, than so be it. My questions is this - was Tiger on PED's when he was 2 and on national TV for his golf ability? What about when he was 5 and beating 10 year olds in local events? How about when he was winning state championships and US amateurs?

[u][b]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED Abuse[/b][/u]
In short - No, it doesn't.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim a 38 year old, aging athletes injuries are from PED use rather than from wear and tear on his body. Aside from golfing every day for probably almost his entire life, he was known to run 6 miles a day in his 20's, as well as to participate in Navy SEAL training missions (and in Haney's book, he mentions that Tiger's knee issues were caused from a Navy seal kicking him in the knee while off balance). Correlation does not mean causation.

He's getting old for his sport. He probably has 10 years ahead of him to be competitive, but like any athlete, he's done a lot to his body. To simply blame it on PED's is not only unfounded, but an insult to any other athlete who has seen performance suffer due to injury in his later years.


So lets say, for arguments sake, that Tiger did take some sort of PED in his career - what would the benefits be? Specifically speaking about steroids, they promote increased muscle development. Would this make Tiger hit the ball further? Maybe, but guys like Bubba, Mcilroy, and John Daly have shown us all sorts of body types get the job done in regards to distance. Surely they wouldn't help Tiger with his short game, putting, or focus. So what real benefit would that leave? A potential for an increase in distance? That's a really weak argument.
[/quote]
I don't have an opinion either way but I think you should include his dodgy doctor when mentioning arguments that has did take PEDs. That's almost a smoking gun.
[/quote]


You mean the "dodgy doctor" who has never accused Tiger of doing anything illegal, and has said DIRECTLY that Tiger had not...and that the only thing he did for Tiger was to spin down blood and inject platelets concentrates into his knee.

(a "treatment" that probably did nothing but seperate Tiger from his money).
[/quote]

The dodgy doctor who denied giving Tiger PEDs like Victor Conte denied giving Bonds PEDs, and the dodgy doctors who denied Lance Armstrong's doping.
[/quote]


But in both of those cases, you had others who were claiming to have witnessed the two of them using banned substances.

There has not been anyone who has had contact with Woods, who claims anything of the sort.

What you are doing is pure McCarthyism: "[i]I've got 70 names....." [/i]
[/quote]

I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.

[Goldenhawk]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400793571' post='9349449']
[quote name='bellview17' timestamp='1400784257' post='9348401']
He is not 185, at his peak in 2001-2002 he as at least 245. Even if he did not take anything, his
body could not hold that weight....
[/quote]

Dude, what have you been smoking?

I saw Woods play---in person---at the peak of his powers in 2001 and 2002. Stood on the tee no less than 10 feet away from him. He is about 6' 1.5" tall and (at that time) weighed about 190lbs MAX. Someone 245lbs is NFL LINEBACKER material..and Tiger would have been considered short and small even for a cornerback or a reciever.
[/quote]
6' is a stretch. Tiger was not much taller than that when he came up to us at RTJ during the last time the Presidents Cup was held there. 245 lbs? Nowhere close.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400873024' post='9355705']
I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.
[/quote]


Spare me.

What you are doing is called---in political circles----"[b][i]Throwing it out there and letting the audience connect the dots". [/i][/b]

Its a way of steering people towards drawing a desired conclusion without having to level the specific accusation.

In this case by playing guilt-by-association, innuendo games.

THE FACT is---as I stated---[i][b]no one who would be in any position to know has accused Woods of any wrong doing[/b][/i].

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1400692864' post='9340353']
Ironic that the Title of this thread states that it "has to end"

OP-you just got it ramped up on the most popular golf website on the planet.
[/quote]LMAO, the only problem with "It has to end" is that it's never gotten started, until this thread, LMAO.

We have a sports radio broadcaster in town who's notorious for starting his shows with all of these bullsh*t "rumors" that he's heard on "the street," and I called in and asked "what street? A back alley with just you in it?"

The son of a b*tch called me a "typical Yunzer" and hung up on me, lol.

I do not ever, nor have ever, used the word "Yunz" or "Yinz," as in "where are yunz goin?"

He's a schmuck

Anyway, I put my feelers out, and people looked at me like I had three eyes, and the last person that I asked said, "yea, weren't people talkin about this a few years ago," LMAO?

So, I believe that with the help of this thread, the talk has indeed stopped

Do not ever underestimate the power of WRX with a determined member!!

Have a great holiday week-end my Friends,
Richard

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1400874021' post='9355787']
[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1400692864' post='9340353']
Ironic that the Title of this thread states that it "has to end"

OP-you just got it ramped up on the most popular golf website on the planet.
[/quote]LMAO,the only problem with "It has to end" is that it's never gotten started, until this thread,LMAO.

[i][b]We have a sports radio broadcaster in town who's notorious for starting his shows with all of these bullsh*t "rumors" that he's on "the street," and I called in and asked "[u]what street?[/u] [u]A back alley with just you in it?"[/u][/b][/i]

The son of a b*tch called me a "typical Yunzer" and hung up on me, lol.

I do not ever, nor have ever, used the word "Yunz" or "Yinz," as in "where are yunz goin?"

He's a schmuck

Anyway, I put my feelers out, and people looked at me like I had three eyes, and the last person that I asked said, "yea, weren't people talkin about this a few years ago," LMAO?

So, I believe that with the help of this thread, the talk has indeed stopped

Do not ever undersetimate the power of WRX with a determined member!!

Have a great holiday week-end my Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

ROFLMAO...

Oh,...God...I think I broke something...

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400873644' post='9355761']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400873024' post='9355705']
I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.
[/quote]


Spare me.

What you are doing is called---in political circles----"[b][i]Throwing it out there and letting the audience connect the dots". [/i][/b]

Its a way of steering people towards drawing a desired conclusion without having to level the specific accusation.

In this case by playing guilt-by-association, innuendo games.

THE FACT is---as I stated---[i][b]no one who would be in any position to know has accused Woods of any wrong doing[/b][/i].
[/quote]

The FACT is you are relying on denials by the very person whose best interest it is to deny.

Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of any wrong doing? If I recall correctly, his trainer even went to jail for contempt of court rather than testify. Relying on a star's close associates for accusations is about as reliable as relying on denials.

[502 to Right]

If it [i]has [/i]to stop why hasn't it stopped? We're 164 posts in.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400874483' post='9355817']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400873644' post='9355761']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400873024' post='9355705']
I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.
[/quote]


Spare me.

What you are doing is called---in political circles----"[b][i]Throwing it out there and letting the audience connect the dots". [/i][/b]

Its a way of steering people towards drawing a desired conclusion without having to level the specific accusation.

In this case by playing guilt-by-association, innuendo games.

THE FACT is---as I stated---[i][b]no one who would be in any position to know has accused Woods of any wrong doing[/b][/i].
[/quote]

The FACT is you are relying on denials by the very person whose best interest it is to deny.

Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of any wrong doing? If I recall correctly, his trainer even went to jail for contempt of court rather than testify. Relying on a star's close associates for accusations is about as reliable as relying on denials.
[/quote]

No...As only brought up the doctor to counter efforts at playing 'guilt-by-association".

As I stated earlier---with ALL of the guys who eventually were outed as using PEDs---there was a steady chorus of accusations. People who either claimed to have directly witnessed them using, or had knowledge that someone else had witnesse them using. The offenders denied these charges until the evidence finally mounted to the point where they could no longer deny it. In fact, such testimony is STILL the bulk of the case against Lance Armstrong.

NO ONE---who is in any position to have such knowledge--has EVER levelled such charges against Woods.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='502 to Right' timestamp='1400874629' post='9355829']
If it [i]has [/i]to stop why hasn't it stopped? We're 164 posts in.
[/quote]

Because some people don't care about living in a fact-free Universe.

They just want their pound of flesh, and don't care how low they have to stoop to try to get it.

[nochct1]

I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400875212' post='9355875']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400874483' post='9355817']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400873644' post='9355761']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400873024' post='9355705']
I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.
[/quote]


Spare me.

What you are doing is called---in political circles----"[b][i]Throwing it out there and letting the audience connect the dots". [/i][/b]

Its a way of steering people towards drawing a desired conclusion without having to level the specific accusation.

In this case by playing guilt-by-association, innuendo games.

THE FACT is---as I stated---[i][b]no one who would be in any position to know has accused Woods of any wrong doing[/b][/i].
[/quote]

The FACT is you are relying on denials by the very person whose best interest it is to deny.

Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of any wrong doing? If I recall correctly, his trainer even went to jail for contempt of court rather than testify. Relying on a star's close associates for accusations is about as reliable as relying on denials.
[/quote]

No...As only brought up the doctor to counter efforts at playing 'guilt-by-association".

As I stated earlier---with ALL of the guys who eventually were outed as using PEDs---there was a steady chorus of accusations. People who either claimed to have directly witnessed them using, or had knowledge that someone else had witnesse them using. The offenders denied these charges until the evidence finally mounted to the point where they could no longer deny it. In fact, such testimony is STILL the bulk of the case against Lance Armstrong.

NO ONE---who is in any position to have such knowledge--has EVER levelled such charges against Woods.
[/quote]
Thanks for not answering the question. Says a lot.

There have been plenty of accusations. Do an internet search. They get discounted like everyone discounted the ones against Armstrong and Bonds. Are the accusations reliable? Who knows. A survey of his peers shows that 1/4 of them believe he did take PEDs. Higher percentage than I thought would.

[albiefresh]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876055' post='9355947']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400875212' post='9355875']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400874483' post='9355817']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400873644' post='9355761']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400873024' post='9355705']
I am simply pointing out that relying on the accused's denial is not convincing.

McCarthyism .... too funny. There is no denying that the doctor treated Tiger. Both have admitted as much. And I haven't accused anybody of anything. Just pointing out that your reliance on denials is weak.
[/quote]


Spare me.

What you are doing is called---in political circles----"[b][i]Throwing it out there and letting the audience connect the dots". [/i][/b]

Its a way of steering people towards drawing a desired conclusion without having to level the specific accusation.

In this case by playing guilt-by-association, innuendo games.

THE FACT is---as I stated---[i][b]no one who would be in any position to know has accused Woods of any wrong doing[/b][/i].
[/quote]

The FACT is you are relying on denials by the very person whose best interest it is to deny.

Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of any wrong doing? If I recall correctly, his trainer even went to jail for contempt of court rather than testify. Relying on a star's close associates for accusations is about as reliable as relying on denials.
[/quote]

No...As only brought up the doctor to counter efforts at playing 'guilt-by-association".

As I stated earlier---with ALL of the guys who eventually were outed as using PEDs---there was a steady chorus of accusations. People who either claimed to have directly witnessed them using, or had knowledge that someone else had witnesse them using. The offenders denied these charges until the evidence finally mounted to the point where they could no longer deny it. In fact, such testimony is STILL the bulk of the case against Lance Armstrong.

NO ONE---who is in any position to have such knowledge--has EVER levelled such charges against Woods.
[/quote]
Thanks for not answering the question. Says a lot.

There have been plenty of accusations. Do an internet search. They get discounted like everyone discounted the ones against Armstrong and Bonds. Are the accusations reliable? Who knows. A survey of his peers shows that 1/4 of them believe he did take PEDs. Higher percentage than I thought would.
[/quote]

Oh please.

I can find anyone willing to say anything on the internet if I'm willing to swill the backwaters deep enough....and set aside my critical reasoning skills long enough to start buying into conspiracy theories.

All it takes is someone with a computer and the lack of integrity to exploit the lax libel laws that surround public figures. Classic example was the guy on YouTube last year who swore up and down that Tiger took an illegal drop at the 14th at Sawgrass. Even though EVERYONE who was actually THERE on the TEE agreed that the drop was proper.

Just like there are people on this thread insisting that they could tell he was "juicing" just by "looking at him"...and that he was "245lbs"....when I know for a fact the guy couldn't have been more than 190, soaking wet. Because I've stood close enough to the guy at tournaments to see whether he'd shaved that day or not.

As I said, NO ONE [i][b]who would have been in a position to KNOW[/b][/i] has levelled any accusations.

[albiefresh]

Same as Bonds.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876194' post='9355953']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.
[/quote]

False equivalency.

Armstrong had been dogged for over a decade by accusations---by people who knew him WELL---that he was cheating. IT was just that no one could ever come up with any evidence to substantiate their accusations. By-and-large they STILL haven't found any physical evidence that I'm aware of.

It's just that the weight of all those accusations from people who were in a position to know, finally reached such a crescendo that the investigating body decided to act against him.

OTOH, with Woods, you got nothing but random, conspiracy theory noise by people who simply don't like Woods, and want to discredit his accomplishments.

[nochct1]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876194' post='9355953']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.
[/quote]

The Lance Armstrong issues started because he had urine samples that tested positive. Various organizations eventually got involved etc etc.

In Tigers case, he has never tested positive. There are no newspapers breaking stories of positive tests. He never had a spoke in performance (his performance has been pretty consistent since he was about 5 years old).

So I don't really see the Armstrong / Woods comparison. The accusations against Armstrong came from positive test results. The accusations against Tiger come from a bunch of nut jobs on message board who just don't like the guy.

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400876810' post='9356019']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876194' post='9355953']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.
[/quote]

False equivalency.

Armstrong had been dogged for over a decade by accusations---by people who knew him WELL---that he was cheating. IT was just that no one could ever come up with any evidence to substantiate their accusations. By-and-large they STILL haven't found any physical evidence that I'm aware of.

It's just that the weight of all those accusations from people who were in a position to know, finally reached such a crescendo that the investigating body decided to act against him.

OTOH, with Woods, you got nothing but random, conspiracy theory noise by people who simply don't like Woods, and want to discredit his accomplishments.
[/quote]

That is part of the point. He had as many staunch defenders as Tiger does here, despite the accusations.

If you want, look at the discussions about Bonds and you will find the same thing. Who were his close associates that accused him of steroid use? Maybe I missed them.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876671' post='9356003']
Same as Bonds.
[/quote]

No...not the same as Bonds.

Again, false equivalency.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876978' post='9356025']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400876810' post='9356019']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876194' post='9355953']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.
[/quote]

False equivalency.

Armstrong had been dogged for over a decade by accusations---by people who knew him WELL---that he was cheating. IT was just that no one could ever come up with any evidence to substantiate their accusations. By-and-large they STILL haven't found any physical evidence that I'm aware of.

It's just that the weight of all those accusations from people who were in a position to know, finally reached such a crescendo that the investigating body decided to act against him.

OTOH, with Woods, you got nothing but random, conspiracy theory noise by people who simply don't like Woods, and want to discredit his accomplishments.
[/quote]

That is part of the point. He had as many staunch defenders as Tiger does here, despite the accusations.

If you want, look at the discussions about Bonds and you will find the same thing. Who were his close associates that accused him of steroid use? Maybe I missed them.
[/quote]


Neither here nor there. The issues is not who does or does not have "defenders'. The issue is the CREDIBILITY of the accusations. Lance was being accused by people who were in a position to know.

Bonds got caught up in the BALCO scandal because there was concrete evidence that the facility he was involved with was supplying PEDs to several baseball players, and Bonds himself had undergone a dramatic change in physique very late in his athletic "lifespan". At the end of the day what ultimately did him in, was that Bonds couldn't keep his own lies straight...and ultimately perjured himself before a grand jury. Grand jury testimony that was then leaked to the public.

Now, I'm assuming YOU can produce some sort of evidence that Woods got caught in a lie regarding the use of PEDs?

No..cause it doesn't exist. What you're doing is playing pure "guilt by association". Which was McCarthy's favorite smear tactic.

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400877018' post='9356033']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876671' post='9356003']
Same as Bonds.
[/quote]

No...not the same as Bonds.

Again, false equivalency.
[/quote]
Nope - nobody associated with Bonds accused him and people argued about it for years. Up until BALCO, everybody on the internet could make the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT about Bonds as you are making about Tiger. Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of taking steroids before BALCO? I'd be interested to know. Even when BALCO got caught, they continued to deny giving any steroids to Bonds, to the point of his trainer going to jail. It was why Bonds was not convicted of perjury.

Label it a false equivalency all you want. Doesn't make it so.

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400877323' post='9356055']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876978' post='9356025']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400876810' post='9356019']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876194' post='9355953']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1400875675' post='9355915']
I wonder if this thread would still be open if it was about other players and illegal drug use?
[/quote]
It would have died on its own because people on both sides would not be as adamant in their beliefs. Look at internet discussions from 4 years ago about Lance. They are a lot like this one.
[/quote]

False equivalency.

Armstrong had been dogged for over a decade by accusations---by people who knew him WELL---that he was cheating. IT was just that no one could ever come up with any evidence to substantiate their accusations. By-and-large they STILL haven't found any physical evidence that I'm aware of.

It's just that the weight of all those accusations from people who were in a position to know, finally reached such a crescendo that the investigating body decided to act against him.

OTOH, with Woods, you got nothing but random, conspiracy theory noise by people who simply don't like Woods, and want to discredit his accomplishments.
[/quote]

That is part of the point. He had as many staunch defenders as Tiger does here, despite the accusations.

If you want, look at the discussions about Bonds and you will find the same thing. Who were his close associates that accused him of steroid use? Maybe I missed them.
[/quote]


Neither here nor there. The issues is not who does or does not have "defenders'. The issue is the CREDIBILITY of the accusations. Lance was being accused by people who were in a position to know.

Bonds got caught up in the BALCO scandal because there was concrete evidence that the facility he was involved with was supplying PEDs to several baseball players, and Bonds himself had undergone a dramatic change in physique very late in his athletic "lifespan". At the end of the day what ultimately did him in, was that Bonds couldn't keep his own lies straight...and ultimately perjured himself before a grand jury. Grand jury testimony that was then leaked to the public.

Now, I'm assuming YOU can produce some sort of evidence that Woods got caught in a lie regarding the use of PEDs?

No..cause it doesn't exist. What you're doing is playing pure "guilt by association". Which was McCarthy's favorite smear tactic.
[/quote]

Let's change a couple of words in your sentence. "[s]Bonds[/s] [u]Tiger [/u]got caught up in the [s]BALCO[/s] [u][color=#333333]Anthony Galea [/color][/u]scandal because there was concrete evidence that the [s]facility[/s] [u]doctor [/u] he was involved with was supplying PEDs to several [s]baseball players[/s] [u]athletes[/u]." Nice work.

Bonds perjured himself to a grand jury? I think you are wrong on that one. Go look up his conviction.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400877435' post='9356067']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400877018' post='9356033']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876671' post='9356003']
Same as Bonds.
[/quote]

No...not the same as Bonds.

Again, false equivalency.
[/quote]
Nope - nobody associated with Bonds accused him and people argued about it for years. Up until BALCO, everybody on the internet could make the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT about Bonds as you are making about Tiger. Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of taking steroids before BALCO? I'd be interested to know. Even when BALCO got caught, they continued to deny giving any steroids to Bonds, to the point of his trainer going to jail. It was why Bonds was not convicted of perjury.

Label it a false equivalency all you want. Doesn't make it so.
[/quote]

Again, you're flailing.

No one accused Bonds, because no one caught him doing anything that looked suspicious...but people had long been scratching their heads over his SUDDEN change in physique in his late 30s and his SUDDEN increase in power at the plate. So when the BALCO scandal broke, and it became clear that Bonds might have had access to steroid creams and ointments---which are MUCH easier to keep concealed than the injection requiring blood doping that Armstrong was involved in---people started asking questions.

...and when people started asking questions, Bonds couldn't keep his lies straight...and he eventually "outed" himself.

There is no equivalency here because here was such change in Woods power. He was RIDICULOUSLY long even as an amatuer, and was hitting 9-irons into Augusta's par 5s even when he was built like a stick in 1997. What allowed Tiger to dominate in 2000-2002 was not an increase in power...but an increase in ACCURACY both from the tee and into the greens.

Now, would you like to tell me WHICH PED will give a golfer a more ACCURATE golf swing?? A more CONSISTENT golf swing?

[albiefresh]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400878000' post='9356129']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400877435' post='9356067']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1400877018' post='9356033']
[quote name='albiefresh' timestamp='1400876671' post='9356003']
Same as Bonds.
[/quote]

No...not the same as Bonds.

Again, false equivalency.
[/quote]
Nope - nobody associated with Bonds accused him and people argued about it for years. Up until BALCO, everybody on the internet could make the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT about Bonds as you are making about Tiger. Who in the position to know ever accused Bonds of taking steroids before BALCO? I'd be interested to know. Even when BALCO got caught, they continued to deny giving any steroids to Bonds, to the point of his trainer going to jail. It was why Bonds was not convicted of perjury.

Label it a false equivalency all you want. Doesn't make it so.
[/quote]

Again, you're flailing.

No one accused Bonds, because no one caught him doing anything that looked suspicious...but people had long been scratching their heads over his SUDDEN change in physique in his late 30s and his SUDDEN increase in power at the plate. So when the BALCO scandal broke, and it became clear that Bonds might have had access to steroid creams and ointments---which are MUCH easier to keep concealed than the injection requiring blood doping that Armstrong was involved in---people started asking questions.

...and when people started asking questions, Bonds couldn't keep his lies straight...and he eventually "outed" himself.

There is no equivalency here because here was such change in Woods power. He was RIDICULOUSLY long even as an amatuer, and was hitting 9-irons into Augusta's par 5s even when he was built like a stick in 1997. What allowed Tiger to dominate in 2000-2002 was not an increase in power...but an increase in ACCURACY both from the tee and into the greens.

Now, would you like to tell me WHICH PED will give a golfer a more ACCURATE golf swing?? A more CONSISTENT golf swing?
[/quote]

I think it is you who are flailing. Changing your argument every time you post. Now talking about golf swings?

I guess you didn't find that perjury conviction, or Bonds's close associates who accused him of steroid use.

Let's go back to YOUR statement, modified to fit the circumstances. It is priceless: [color=#282828] "[/color][s]Bonds[/s][color=#282828] [/color][u]Tiger [/u][color=#282828]got caught up in the [/color][s]BALCO[/s][color=#282828] [/color][u][color=#333333]Anthony Galea [/color][/u][color=#282828]scandal because there was concrete evidence that the [/color][s]facility[/s][color=#282828] [/color][u]doctor [/u][color=#282828]he was involved with was supplying PEDs to several [/color][s]baseball players[/s][color=#282828] [/color][u]athletes[/u][color=#282828]." [/color]