The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[kellygreen]

[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1401223291' post='9376155']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1400948122' post='9359993']

SNIP:

There is no group of professionals, physicians as a whole, and [s]surgeons[/s] [i]anesthesiologists [/i]in particular, where their tone of certainty soooooooo far exceeds their actual knowledge in areas outside of the professional knowledge and specialties. They are used to being the authority in the room, whether it be an operating room, an exam room or a bar room, lol, and they speak with the same tone of certainity, regardless of their locale or the topic, LMAO. Through osmosis, a physician can transfer their medical knowledge to any and all subjects. It really is amazing to watch, LMAO.

You weren't thin[color=#008000]K[/color]in[color=#008000]G[/color] of a certain WRXer, were you?

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]
[/quote]

Possibly.

But, as one of my professional mentors once told me:

[i]"The really annoying thing about you is that you are almost always right..." [/i]

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1401223291' post='9376155']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1400948122' post='9359993']
SNIP:

There is no group of professionals, physicians as a whole, and [s]surgeons[/s] [i]anesthesiologists [/i]in particular, where their tone of certainty soooooooo far exceeds their actual knowledge in areas outside of the professional knowledge and specialties. They are used to being the authority in the room, whether it be an operating room, an exam room or a bar room, lol, and they speak with the same tone of certainity, regardless of their locale or the topic, LMAO. Through osmosis, a physician can transfer their medical knowledge to any and all subjects. It really is amazing to watch, LMAO.

You weren't thin[color=#008000]K[/color]in[color=#008000]G[/color] of a certain WRXer, were you?

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]
[/quote]HaHa, no, absolutely not. I mean, I figured that there are docs on the board, and I saw a dentist or two, though I have no idea who the docs(MDs) are

Hell, they can't be any more obnoxious than I

Have a nice evening

My Best,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401226564' post='9376581']
[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1401223291' post='9376155']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1400948122' post='9359993']
SNIP:

There is no group of professionals, physicians as a whole, and [s]surgeons[/s] [i]anesthesiologists [/i]in particular, where their tone of certainty soooooooo far exceeds their actual knowledge in areas outside of the professional knowledge and specialties. They are used to being the authority in the room, whether it be an operating room, an exam room or a bar room, lol, and they speak with the same tone of certainity, regardless of their locale or the topic, LMAO. Through osmosis, a physician can transfer their medical knowledge to any and all subjects. It really is amazing to watch, LMAO.

You weren't thin[color=#008000]K[/color]in[color=#008000]G[/color] of a certain WRXer, were you?

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]
[/quote]

Possibly.

But, as one of my professional mentors once told me:

[i]"The really annoying thing about you is that you are almost always right..." [/i]
[/quote]LMAO, as did one of mine-

He quickly followed that up with-

"The only individual that people detest more than the individual who is right all of the time, is the individual who thinks that he right all of the time"

LMAO, I have that burnt into a wood block facing me on my desk, lol.

And FWIW, as I said, I don't know who's who or what they do here, though if I ever had a comment for someone, I would direct it at them, and there would be no doubt as to who I am addressing, lol. I'm not into the passive aggressive scene, lol

Have a great week

My Best,
Richard

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1401227494' post='9376681']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401226564' post='9376581']
[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1401223291' post='9376155']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1400948122' post='9359993']
SNIP:

There is no group of professionals, physicians as a whole, and [s]surgeons[/s] [i]anesthesiologists [/i]in particular, where their tone of certainty soooooooo far exceeds their actual knowledge in areas outside of the professional knowledge and specialties. They are used to being the authority in the room, whether it be an operating room, an exam room or a bar room, lol, and they speak with the same tone of certainity, regardless of their locale or the topic, LMAO. Through osmosis, a physician can transfer their medical knowledge to any and all subjects. It really is amazing to watch, LMAO.

You weren't thin[color=#008000]K[/color]in[color=#008000]G[/color] of a certain WRXer, were you?

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]
[/quote]

Possibly.

But, as one of my professional mentors once told me:

[i]"The really annoying thing about you is that you are almost always right..." [/i]
[/quote]LMAO, as did one of mine-

He quickly followed that up with-

"The only individual that people detest more than the individual who is right all of the time, is the individual who thinks that he right all of the time"

LMAO, I have that burnt into a wood block facing me on my desk, lol.

Have a great week

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

ROFL.

True that....

Reminds me of that bumper sticker I saw in high school: "[i]People who think they're always right just annoy the crap out of those of us who really are!!"[/i]

Actually, for me, the far more practical advice was the mentor who told me:

1.[i] Patients want to know how much you care, before they care how much you know.[/i]

[i]2. Taking care of the patients is the easy part, dealing with the personalities of surgeons is what will prematurely age you[/i].

What I tell my trainees is that:

[i]Whenever I come up with a plan to take care of a patient, I try to idiot-proof it. Because the first idiot I'm trying to protect the patient from is [u][b]ME[/b][/u]. [/i]

Take care.

[rafer11]

Good post.

I don't think many out there seriously believe Tiger took steroids. Those who use the phrase are typically in one of the following camps

1) Those who like to get a rise out of Tiger fanboys
2) Those who despise Tiger and use it as a dig. (We all do this to some extent. I think Milan Lucic is a great player, but if he's playing the Habs I'll be calling him all sort of things for the series. You won't hear me saying nice things about Tim Duncan come the NBA finals this year either )
3) Those who 'need' to believe it to keep from shattering their reality of what they believe the world is. (You'll often hear the middle class say "I don't need money" or "Money is not that important" etc to hold onto the belief that there must be some 'secret' in getting rich. Maybe a friend of their got rich and they think "Oh man. LUCKY [as if luck had anything to do with it] John. I wonder 'HOW' he did it" as if there is some magical secret and formula to getting rich. The majority of people believe this. It's called hard work. By this same token, people's realities can't accept that someone could be THIS successful without some 'secret', some formula, some '30 second abs' magic pill. Here's the reality. A guy like Tiger Woods, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, or insert your favorite capable human here... is simply harder working than you. You want to know their secret, read The Slight Edge. Their secret is that when put in in a situation and faced with a very small and insignificant decision... they make the correct decision every time.

Robert Herjavic told a story about how Woods was to play a game with himself and some others up in the Maritimes. In Tiger's contract, it states a pilot cannot land in an airport after dark if the pilot has not landed there before. The plane had to turn around, and he had to be flown by helicopter all the way there. Robert said Tiger arrived at something like 3am, dead tired, and was up at 4am in the Hotel gym working out. You see... when #3 is faced with this decision, he turns his alarm off for 'just 10 more minutes'. He wakes up at 10, and proceeds to do the same with every other little decision in his life. January 1st he heads to the gym to fulfill his yearly promise to himself, which no doubt will be broken in under 4 weeks. He goes on a diet as well. "Should I have this Snickers bar or this Carrot? Hmm. It's only this one little Snickers bar, plus I ran an extra half mile today so I can afford it." Thing is... every time #3 is faced with this decision... this seemingly small, unimportant decision... he chooses the impulse, the short term... not the long term goal. 3 weeks in he went to bed 'late' [2 hours] and in the morning he 'doesn't want to tax his body with only 5 of sleep and a workout' so he'll just 'go tomorrow'. This is the end of his yearly news year resolution. 365 days later, he's had the 'insignificant just one time' snickers bar worth 300 calories, which is packing on ~1lb every 2 weeks.

The majority of people are #3 type personalities. They cannot understand the likes of a successful person like Tiger Woods or Arnold without some sort explanation like cheating being behind it because it would shatter their reality of what is possible.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rafer11' timestamp='1401229443' post='9376981']
Good post.

I don't think many out there seriously believe Tiger took steroids. Those who use the phrase are typically in one of the following camps

1) Those who like to get a rise out of Tiger fanboys
2) Those who despise Tiger and use it as a dig. (We all do this to some extent. I think Milan Lucic is a great player, but if he's playing the Habs I'll be calling him all sort of things for the series. You won't hear me saying nice things about Tim Duncan come the NBA finals this year either )
3) Those who 'need' to believe it to keep from shattering their reality of what they believe the world is. (You'll often hear the middle class say "I don't need money" or "Money is not that important" etc to hold onto the belief that there must be some 'secret' in getting rich. Maybe a friend of their got rich and they think "Oh man. LUCKY [as if luck had anything to do with it] John. I wonder 'HOW' he did it" as if there is some magical secret and formula to getting rich. The majority of people believe this. It's called hard work. By this same token, people's realities can't accept that someone could be THIS successful without some 'secret', some formula, some '30 second abs' magic pill. Here's the reality. A guy like Tiger Woods, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, or insert your favorite capable human here... is simply harder working than you. You want to know their secret, read The Slight Edge. Their secret is that when put in in a situation and faced with a very small and insignificant decision... they make the correct decision every time.

Robert Herjavic told a story about how Woods was to play a game with himself and some others up in the Maritimes. In Tiger's contract, it states a pilot cannot land in an airport after dark if the pilot has not landed there before. The plane had to turn around, and he had to be flown by helicopter all the way there. Robert said Tiger arrived at something like 3am, dead tired, and was up at 4am in the Hotel gym working out. You see... when #3 is faced with this decision, he turns his alarm off for 'just 10 more minutes'. He wakes up at 10, and proceeds to do the same with every other little decision in his life. January 1st he heads to the gym to fulfill his yearly promise to himself, which no doubt will be broken in under 4 weeks. He goes on a diet as well. "Should I have this Snickers bar or this Carrot? Hmm. It's only this one little Snickers bar, plus I ran an extra half mile today so I can afford it." Thing is... every time #3 is faced with this decision... this seemingly small, unimportant decision... he chooses the impulse, the short term... not the long term goal. 3 weeks in he went to bed 'late' [2 hours] and in the morning he 'doesn't want to tax his body with only 5 of sleep and a workout' so he'll just 'go tomorrow'. This is the end of his yearly news year resolution. 365 days later, he's had the 'insignificant just one time' snickers bar worth 300 calories, which is packing on ~1lb every 2 weeks.

The majority of people are #3 type personalities. They cannot understand the likes of a successful person like Tiger Woods or Arnold without some sort explanation like cheating being behind it because it would shatter their reality of what is possible.
[/quote]

Agree with most of what you said....but would add a couple things.

1. I wouldn't say that "most" people are like your third personality type...but I woudl say that a LOT of people are like that. They--imo---are the people who, when confronted by greatness in others are not inspired by it. Instead they resent it. So, they wind up lashing out at it, or try to diminish it in whatever way the can.

2. Hard work is necessary-but-not-sufficient to success and greatness. There are VERY REAL talent gaps. We are equal under the law, but we are not born equal in every way. You could have put a basketball in my hands at age 3, and had me practicing for 10 hours a day growing up...you would NOT have turned me into a Michael Jordan or a LeBron James no matter how much effort you into it.

3. Guys like Jordan and Woods are extremely rare. I think a quote from an SI article about Jordan really sums up both men well. "[i]He is the rare occurence in sports when the game's greatest talent, its hardest worker, AND its fiercest competitor all reside in the SAME BODY." [/i]That convergence only happens once or twice a century in any given sport.

4. The other thing---that fuels alot of the animosity and resentment towards Woods---is that Woods embodies a changing America in a game that has a deeply reactionary history towards diversity..and that some people see as something of a refuge FROM that (for them) unwanted social change.

..and this kind of baseless back-biting and smearing is how they choose to vent that hostility.

[gmangolf]

gyeol

[cxx]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401230353' post='9377087']
[quote name='rafer11' timestamp='1401229443' post='9376981']
Good post.

I don't think many out there seriously believe Tiger took steroids. Those who use the phrase are typically in one of the following camps

1) Those who like to get a rise out of Tiger fanboys
2) Those who despise Tiger and use it as a dig. (We all do this to some extent. I think Milan Lucic is a great player, but if he's playing the Habs I'll be calling him all sort of things for the series. You won't hear me saying nice things about Tim Duncan come the NBA finals this year either )
3) Those who 'need' to believe it to keep from shattering their reality of what they believe the world is. (You'll often hear the middle class say "I don't need money" or "Money is not that important" etc to hold onto the belief that there must be some 'secret' in getting rich. Maybe a friend of their got rich and they think "Oh man. LUCKY [as if luck had anything to do with it] John. I wonder 'HOW' he did it" as if there is some magical secret and formula to getting rich. The majority of people believe this. It's called hard work. By this same token, people's realities can't accept that someone could be THIS successful without some 'secret', some formula, some '30 second abs' magic pill. Here's the reality. A guy like Tiger Woods, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, or insert your favorite capable human here... is simply harder working than you. You want to know their secret, read The Slight Edge. Their secret is that when put in in a situation and faced with a very small and insignificant decision... they make the correct decision every time.

Robert Herjavic told a story about how Woods was to play a game with himself and some others up in the Maritimes. In Tiger's contract, it states a pilot cannot land in an airport after dark if the pilot has not landed there before. The plane had to turn around, and he had to be flown by helicopter all the way there. Robert said Tiger arrived at something like 3am, dead tired, and was up at 4am in the Hotel gym working out. You see... when #3 is faced with this decision, he turns his alarm off for 'just 10 more minutes'. He wakes up at 10, and proceeds to do the same with every other little decision in his life. January 1st he heads to the gym to fulfill his yearly promise to himself, which no doubt will be broken in under 4 weeks. He goes on a diet as well. "Should I have this Snickers bar or this Carrot? Hmm. It's only this one little Snickers bar, plus I ran an extra half mile today so I can afford it." Thing is... every time #3 is faced with this decision... this seemingly small, unimportant decision... he chooses the impulse, the short term... not the long term goal. 3 weeks in he went to bed 'late' [2 hours] and in the morning he 'doesn't want to tax his body with only 5 of sleep and a workout' so he'll just 'go tomorrow'. This is the end of his yearly news year resolution. 365 days later, he's had the 'insignificant just one time' snickers bar worth 300 calories, which is packing on ~1lb every 2 weeks.

The majority of people are #3 type personalities. They cannot understand the likes of a successful person like Tiger Woods or Arnold without some sort explanation like cheating being behind it because it would shatter their reality of what is possible.
[/quote]

Agree with most of what you said....but would add a couple things.

1. I wouldn't say that "most" people are like your third personality type...but I woudl say that a LOT of people are like that. They--imo---are the people who, when confronted by greatness in others are not inspired by it. Instead they resent it. So, they wind up lashing out at it, or try to diminish it in whatever way the can.

2. Hard work is necessary-but-not-sufficient to success and greatness. There are VERY REAL talent gaps. We are equal under the law, but we are not born equal in every way. You could have put a basketball in my hands at age 3, and had me practicing for 10 hours a day growing up...you would NOT have turned me into a Michael Jordan or a LeBron James no matter how much effort you into it.

3. Guys like Jordan and Woods are extremely rare. I think a quote from an SI article about Jordan really sums up both men well. "[i]He is the rare occurence in sports when the game's greatest talent, its hardest worker, AND its fiercest competitor all reside in the SAME BODY." [/i]That convergence only happens once or twice a century in any given sport.

4. The other thing---that fuels alot of the animosity and resentment towards Woods---is that Woods embodies a changing America in a game that has a deeply reactionary history towards diversity..and that some people see as something of a refuge FROM that (for them) unwanted social change.

..and this kind of baseless back-biting and smearing is how they choose to vent that hostility.
[/quote]

Here we were speculating and having fun and you all had to go and get all psychological, speculating on everyone's motivations. So as long as we are here, I do think the 3rd personality type is a bit of a caricature rooted in some aspirational mantra. Fortune has something to do with success. You could be born with all the talents and drive in the world and happen to be born into the wrong century or country and your future would be severely limited. In fact, those gifts might be considered a curse. I'd give most the benefit of the doubt and attribute their motives to number 1.

As far as golf's reaction to social change and diversity, I am seeing a lot more Asian players in America. More power to them.

[farmer]

Hasn't Arnold admitted to massive steroid use?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401242230' post='9378659']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401230353' post='9377087']
[quote name='rafer11' timestamp='1401229443' post='9376981']
Good post.

I don't think many out there seriously believe Tiger took steroids. Those who use the phrase are typically in one of the following camps

1) Those who like to get a rise out of Tiger fanboys
2) Those who despise Tiger and use it as a dig. (We all do this to some extent. I think Milan Lucic is a great player, but if he's playing the Habs I'll be calling him all sort of things for the series. You won't hear me saying nice things about Tim Duncan come the NBA finals this year either )
3) Those who 'need' to believe it to keep from shattering their reality of what they believe the world is. (You'll often hear the middle class say "I don't need money" or "Money is not that important" etc to hold onto the belief that there must be some 'secret' in getting rich. Maybe a friend of their got rich and they think "Oh man. LUCKY [as if luck had anything to do with it] John. I wonder 'HOW' he did it" as if there is some magical secret and formula to getting rich. The majority of people believe this. It's called hard work. By this same token, people's realities can't accept that someone could be THIS successful without some 'secret', some formula, some '30 second abs' magic pill. Here's the reality. A guy like Tiger Woods, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, or insert your favorite capable human here... is simply harder working than you. You want to know their secret, read The Slight Edge. Their secret is that when put in in a situation and faced with a very small and insignificant decision... they make the correct decision every time.

Robert Herjavic told a story about how Woods was to play a game with himself and some others up in the Maritimes. In Tiger's contract, it states a pilot cannot land in an airport after dark if the pilot has not landed there before. The plane had to turn around, and he had to be flown by helicopter all the way there. Robert said Tiger arrived at something like 3am, dead tired, and was up at 4am in the Hotel gym working out. You see... when #3 is faced with this decision, he turns his alarm off for 'just 10 more minutes'. He wakes up at 10, and proceeds to do the same with every other little decision in his life. January 1st he heads to the gym to fulfill his yearly promise to himself, which no doubt will be broken in under 4 weeks. He goes on a diet as well. "Should I have this Snickers bar or this Carrot? Hmm. It's only this one little Snickers bar, plus I ran an extra half mile today so I can afford it." Thing is... every time #3 is faced with this decision... this seemingly small, unimportant decision... he chooses the impulse, the short term... not the long term goal. 3 weeks in he went to bed 'late' [2 hours] and in the morning he 'doesn't want to tax his body with only 5 of sleep and a workout' so he'll just 'go tomorrow'. This is the end of his yearly news year resolution. 365 days later, he's had the 'insignificant just one time' snickers bar worth 300 calories, which is packing on ~1lb every 2 weeks.

The majority of people are #3 type personalities. They cannot understand the likes of a successful person like Tiger Woods or Arnold without some sort explanation like cheating being behind it because it would shatter their reality of what is possible.
[/quote]

Agree with most of what you said....but would add a couple things.

1. I wouldn't say that "most" people are like your third personality type...but I woudl say that a LOT of people are like that. They--imo---are the people who, when confronted by greatness in others are not inspired by it. Instead they resent it. So, they wind up lashing out at it, or try to diminish it in whatever way the can.

2. Hard work is necessary-but-not-sufficient to success and greatness. There are VERY REAL talent gaps. We are equal under the law, but we are not born equal in every way. You could have put a basketball in my hands at age 3, and had me practicing for 10 hours a day growing up...you would NOT have turned me into a Michael Jordan or a LeBron James no matter how much effort you into it.

3. Guys like Jordan and Woods are extremely rare. I think a quote from an SI article about Jordan really sums up both men well. "[i]He is the rare occurence in sports when the game's greatest talent, its hardest worker, AND its fiercest competitor all reside in the SAME BODY." [/i]That convergence only happens once or twice a century in any given sport.

4. The other thing---that fuels alot of the animosity and resentment towards Woods---is that Woods embodies a changing America in a game that has a deeply reactionary history towards diversity..and that some people see as something of a refuge FROM that (for them) unwanted social change.

..and this kind of baseless back-biting and smearing is how they choose to vent that hostility.
[/quote]

Here we were speculating and having fun and you all had to go and get all psychological, speculating on everyone's motivations. So as long as we are here, I do think the 3rd personality type is a bit of a caricature rooted in some aspirational mantra. Fortune has something to do with success. You could be born with all the talents and drive in the world and happen to be born into the wrong century or country and your future would be severely limited. In fact, those gifts might be considered a curse. I'd give most the benefit of the doubt and attribute their motives to number 1.

As far as golf's reaction to social change and diversity, I am seeing a lot more Asian players in America. More power to them.
[/quote]

Understood.

Which is why I said that hard work was "necessary but not sufficient"...and I measure success relative to where one starts from. Although we like to talk about "equality" here in the US, we also love our class privilieges and stratification. H*ll, 90% of our politics these days are about how we can pander more effectively to rich and more creatively stick to the poor-and-powerless. So I consign relatively few people to "category 1", that is the have the talent and opportunities to succeed, but just aren't willing to put in the effort. In my experience lack of talent, and lack of opportunity trip up more people than lack of effort. Ninety-nine percent of kids who play baseball simply don't have the talent to ever make it to the majors. Hard work and opportunities are what sort out the remaining 1%.

Most people don't mind golf's changing face---like you seem not to. But there are many people who do....and most of them will deny that they mind it when pressed. But I've been around the block long enough to stop listening to what people say, and to simply stand back and watch what they do.

Those who resent that change usually "out" themselves...given enough time, manuvering room...and rope.

[cxx]

Actually, I was referring to type 1 of rafer11's post that you quoted.

Unlike most, the class structure in the US is relatively flexible, it's based on money for all but the uber old money and most of those were single generation made. I'd say that most people are one generation away from almost any class they would like to achieve. Whether they get there, or find it a worthwhile endeavor in the first place, is up to them.

It is funny how much weight we give to people who have money. They become the arbiter of taste, as long as they don't stray into nouveau territory, and are listened too by many. It doesn't seem to matter how they got it. A friend won the lottery and all of a sudden everyone was giving his every word more weight.

Hey, everyone hangs themselves given enough rope and encouragement. Maybe with the exception of Job.

[stage1350]

The only thing Tiger should definitely be on is a round of antibiotics from all the skanks he was banging. [/the drip]

[somaplr]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1401280845' post='9380813']
The only thing Tiger should definitely be on is a round of antibiotics from all the skanks he was banging. [/the drip]
[/quote]

OHmzzzzzzzggggg....zing...?

Great points Rafer - especially about the part that people's reality getting disrupted. You see this all the time in the fitness world. I would say more than half the people I meet, just assume I'm on 'roids. It's disheartening - when you explain what you have to do from a liftestyle perspective to manage your body like that - they still assume you're on steroids of some kind.

Just like with the current Tiger situation - people with little or no knowledge about fitness and diet - have to inject an outside substance in their thought process to make them feel better about themselves.

And to the poster above, yes Arnold has long admitted to using steroids. He used them for 3 decades. But, so did everyone else at the Olympia.

[QuigleyDU]

I would guarantee that everyone on this forum has taken a steroid or two in their life.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1401249922' post='9379551']
Hasn't Arnold admitted to massive steroid use?
[/quote]As Somaplr stated, Arnold did admit to using, decades ago(1977-78ish), and as Somaplr also stated, they all did "back then," both champions & contenders and most definitely, the pretenders, lol. And PEDs were more than rampant in the Cycling word, at least at the world-class level. Lance Armstrong was no different, nor did he do anything differently, than any of the Champions before him of shortly after him. It is the way that he handled the situation that disappointed me, not so much that he did them. That I could understand. It was his needlessly destroying good peoples' lives, the "scorched earth" strategy, if you will, when the gig was up, that disappointed me. He did it, he got caught, and there was no ifs, and or buts, they had irrefutable proof, and it's just my opinion that he should've "manned up."

There are a couple of things that I would like to say, and I only say them because again Somaplr(damn Dude, can I piggyback your post any more, LMAO) brought up a great point, well, actually a few, and I'd just like to expand on them, to hopefully give someone a little broader lens in which to view the world of PEDs, their effects, both performance wise, and post competition, when for many, their "deal with the devil," must be paid in full.

The first misconception out there amongst many, especially those who have never really competed at the highest levels, be it as an amateur or professional, is that an individual just takes a PED, and you can take your pick of drug and delivery system, and Presto, their performance jumps to world class levels, and all of a sudden, their bodies take on the look of a world class athlete, irrespective of their sport. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am 54yo, and having played D I football, I grew up/ played through the "vanilla" period, where we had access to your basic anabolic steroids, in either solution(injected) or pill(orally ingested) form. None of these exotic "designer" growth hormone PEDs, lol. I myself, hit college as a 19yo 223lb freshman ILB. I tore my knee up in camp and took a "red shirt."

Subsequently, and "naturally," through a more rigorous and regimented training/diet regime than I had been exposed to in HS, I got my weight to 235-237lbs by my sophomore year. This was 1980. I was a good sized ILB. However, being young, dumb and with dreams that far exceeded my natural ability, and teammates/best friends/roomies who were dumber than me, lol, with even larger dreams, well, they got me to try something that I had absolutely no reason or business trying, because I was big enough, fast enough and good enough "naturally," though as I said, while intellectually & academically I was brighter than your average AP chemistry or biology student(or so my tests stated, lol), this was not a chemistry lab or bio class, and the guys that I was competing against weren't shooting for med or dental school, lol, so when my Father would later say that basic, "I thought that you were brighter than that," well, I responded like your typical dumb *ss 20yo, lol,ie., inapropriately

So, as I lived with 2 DTs, a NG and an OG, I was the smallest guy in the house, lol, and I was ok with that. I was larger than average and could use my weight to my advantage, they called it leverage and tenacity, lol. It's just that I had this number in my mind- 245lbs, and if you asked me "why that number," well, I have no idea, it's just the number that I picked. And for about 6-8 months, I stayed away from the stuff. I worked out side by side with my roomies/teammates, and while I busted my *ss, many times going until I literally was on my knees, and a few times, vomiting, my teammates would keep going. I'd be shot, and they'd get one more set, or 8-10 more reps. Well you multiply those sets/reps but the hundreds of workouts that we did, and you get tens of thousands of "extra" reps and thousands of sets.

The results of those reps and sets were the difference in them and their work-out and me and mine. And don't get me wrong. I would keep lifting after I vomited, though where they added weight or did more reps/sets, I would have to take some off and/or do less. They all injected, though I've always had, to this day, an almost phobia of needles, which is ironic, cuz as I type this, I've got two in my arm, lol. So I took an oral, and I'll just use the trade name here, Dianabol. But I didn't get it from the same Cincy gym that my teammates got theirs. No, I had a reputation and image to protect, lol. You see, I wasn't your typical "jock." Didn't dress like one, didn't speak like one, and I didn't act like one. And while my roomies/teammates would have probably killed for me, and they did at minimum do severe physical damage to the two players, who through cheap hits, caused me to leave a field by stretcher, and they looked at me as one of them, they would tell me that they respected the fact that I could leave the field and leave that world behind, lol.

So, I did some research and found that a division of the pharm company that made one of the kidney transplant anti-rejection drugs that my father and his hospital used also made Dianabol. Well, you can put the rest of the story together. So I start takin the pills, LMAO, cuz I'm thinkin of the poster in here that was gonna "bet" that Tiger did "at least 2 cycles." LMAO, and Bro, this isn't on you, cuz hell, maybe you do know what a cycle consists of, and the proper way to "cycle on" and "cycle off," but back then, I sure the hell didn't, LMAO. You certainly know more than I did, cuz I was runnin blind, as were my teammates. So, at the end of day 5, I go to the bathroom. And I happen to look down and it's red. I'm not talkin pinkish-yellow or even pink, but frickin scarlet red. No burning, no pain, nothin, but a red stream.

Needless to say, I panicked. Well, my relationship with my Father is such(Very clinical, LMAO), that I could and did call him immediately and told him everything. He skipped the lecture, with the exception of call me a dumb *ss, and told me to immediately cease taking the pill and see what my urine looked like in 24 hours. If it was as red(it couldn't have gotten much redder, lol), he would fly me home and have a work-up done. Long story short, there was no further damage, and I was back to "normal" within like 3-4 days. So my inability to have my body break down the drug basically, as I see it, saved me.

However, one of my teammates, and one of my two closest friends, wasn't so lucky. He injected, got huge(6'2", 292-295lbs) and played OG in the NFL for 2 years and the USFL for another 3 1/2 years, before he blew out a knee. Well, he lived on the stuff. He might miss a meal, though I never knew him to miss his shot. Long story short, he ended up on the kidney transplant list at the age of 42yo, and ironically, had he lived to get his transplant, my father would have been his surgeon. And my Father really liked "Smitty." I've only seen my Father cry one time in my life, ever, and I was at his hip for thousands of surgeries, going back to when he first took me into an OR as a child. That was the day that they called him, and he walked up to me at the club to give me the news. He didn't break down, though when I saw the water in his eyes, I knew. I was headed to the hospital to visit my friend.

But quickly, I'll recount a conversation that we had about 2-3 weeks before, I at his hospital bed. Looking at this Guy, who I knew a a massive body of energy and seriously, he had a defensive player's mentality and edge, and I always said that it was a waste of perfectly good nastiness putting him on the offensive side of the ball, LMAO, though here he was, 150-155lbs, almost half his former self.

So I started to ask him the question, "Bro, if you could......," he interrupted me and replied, "I wouldn't change a thing. Not a f*ckin thing. Jake, I ran with the best. I ran against the best. That's all that I wanted."

So, you see, when someone is laying on their death bead, and I can't convey the conviction and intensity that he responded with, except to say, that it was the same level that he played with, however, unless you've been exposed to that type of thinking, well, you have absolutely no idea, nor can you put yourself in the shoes of my former teammate, or Arnold, or Lance or Tiger.

It's easy to sit back and cast stones or give opinions, though unless you've at least, been on the field, course, track or stage that those that you are judging has stood and competed on, then with all due respect, you don't know sh*t.

For some, the shot at that glory, that moment in time of being THE BEST or taking your best shot at being THE BEST, or competing at the highest level against THE BEST, is worth any price.

And, who the hell am I to judge them?

I understand em.

I may not agree with em, though I definitely can understand why they would do what they may or may not have done.

Hell, it was a thrill to run out into a college stadium with 45-92,000+ fans.

It was crazy.

But to run into a NFL stadium?

Or to be riding a bike in the Swiss Alps?

Or, if it would help, to tee it up on Thursday on Tour?

I can definitely understand their thought processes.

And for those that can't, that's fine, however, don't judge them as though we're speaking of some 5 cap in a league match, LMAO.

Thanks for reading

Have a great day!

My Best,
Richard

[rafer11]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401275274' post='9380383']
[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401242230' post='9378659']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1401230353' post='9377087']
Agree with most of what you said....but would add a couple things.

1. I wouldn't say that "most" people are like your third personality type...but I woudl say that a LOT of people are like that. They--imo---are the people who, when confronted by greatness in others are not inspired by it. Instead they resent it. So, they wind up lashing out at it, or try to diminish it in whatever way the can.

2. Hard work is necessary-but-not-sufficient to success and greatness. There are VERY REAL talent gaps. We are equal under the law, but we are not born equal in every way. You could have put a basketball in my hands at age 3, and had me practicing for 10 hours a day growing up...you would NOT have turned me into a Michael Jordan or a LeBron James no matter how much effort you into it.

3. Guys like Jordan and Woods are extremely rare. I think a quote from an SI article about Jordan really sums up both men well. "[i]He is the rare occurence in sports when the game's greatest talent, its hardest worker, AND its fiercest competitor all reside in the SAME BODY." [/i]That convergence only happens once or twice a century in any given sport.

4. The other thing---that fuels alot of the animosity and resentment towards Woods---is that Woods embodies a changing America in a game that has a deeply reactionary history towards diversity..and that some people see as something of a refuge FROM that (for them) unwanted social change.

..and this kind of baseless back-biting and smearing is how they choose to vent that hostility.
[/quote]

Here we were speculating and having fun and you all had to go and get all psychological, speculating on everyone's motivations. So as long as we are here, I do think the 3rd personality type is a bit of a caricature rooted in some aspirational mantra. Fortune has something to do with success. You could be born with all the talents and drive in the world and happen to be born into the wrong century or country and your future would be severely limited. In fact, those gifts might be considered a curse. I'd give most the benefit of the doubt and attribute their motives to number 1.

As far as golf's reaction to social change and diversity, I am seeing a lot more Asian players in America. More power to them.
[/quote]

Understood.

Which is why I said that hard work was "necessary but not sufficient"...and I measure success relative to where one starts from. Although we like to talk about "equality" here in the US, we also love our class privilieges and stratification. H*ll, 90% of our politics these days are about how we can pander more effectively to rich and more creatively stick to the poor-and-powerless. [b]So I consign relatively few people to "category 1", that is the have the talent and opportunities to succeed, but just aren't willing to put in the effort. In my experience lack of talent, and lack of opportunity trip up more people than lack of effort. Ninety-nine percent of kids who play baseball simply don't have the talent to ever make it to the majors. Hard work and opportunities are what sort out the remaining 1%.[/b]

Most people don't mind golf's changing face---like you seem not to. But there are many people who do....and most of them will deny that they mind it when pressed. But I've been around the block long enough to stop listening to what people say, and to simply stand back and watch what they do.

Those who resent that change usually "out" themselves...given enough time, manuvering room...and rope.
[/quote]

I'm in the other boat completely, but it depends what we're talking about. If we are just talking about the few major North American sports, than natural born talent and opportunity weight heavily into it. Heavily! And I agree with that. With millions of people competing for a league such as the NBA which rosters ~360 people... being born to reach a maximum height of 5'0... no amount of hard work is going to get you into the league. I'm speaking on the whole of society and everything it offers. Not just professional sports. Starting your own business, moving up the corporate ladder, [url="http://rapgenius.com/Kanye-west-gold-digger-lyrics#note-37755"]or what have you[/url]. Whatever a person considers success, lowering their handicap 10 strokes or whatever. Seeing most people in the corporate world, or back throughout university, most people are contented with doing the bare minimum IMO. They are happy to get through their day so they can get home and turn on the TV within 5 seconds of coming through the door. They have a goal to lower their handicap 5 strokes this year, but rather than go work on it, their 'tired' and instead they've ordered the new 'swingtron omega' which promises to lower their handicap one stroke for every 30 seconds of work put into it. While that ships to their house, they'll hunker down and gorge on an entire season of Breaking Bad all at once. Day in Day out, they're contented spending 90% of their time watching TV and surfing the net. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this. I just describe this as the every man, the ones who lash out at the Tiger's for 'using PED's' because there is no way someone could be so successful. Or the Arnold's, or MJ's, or Robert Herjavic's, or Elon Musk's, etc.

For this every man... it shatter's their map of reality to believe success is most often attained not by cheating... but by hard work. While they watch Sportscenter, Tiger is setting a new personal best bench press. While they finish Good Morning America, Tiger finishes a daily morning 6K. While they hunker down after 'work' to relax from their exhausting day', Tiger has not only lifted and ran, but also hit 500 balls, played 36 holes, chipped and putted for 2 hours, etc. Every day.

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1401286055' post='9381363']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1401280845' post='9380813']
The only thing Tiger should definitely be on is a round of antibiotics from all the skanks he was banging. [/the drip]
[/quote]

OHmzzzzzzzggggg....zing...?

Great points Rafer - especially about the part that [b]people's reality getting disrupted. You see this all the time[/b] in the fitness world. I would say more than half the people I meet, just assume I'm on 'roids. It's disheartening - when you explain what you have to do from a liftestyle perspective to manage your body like that - they still assume you're on steroids of some kind.

Just like with the current Tiger situation - people with little or no knowledge about fitness and diet - have to inject an outside substance in their thought process to make them feel better about themselves.

And to the poster above, yes Arnold has long admitted to using steroids. He used them for 3 decades. But, so did everyone else at the Olympia. A
[/quote]

I'm about to get widely off topic now to describe the phenomena of 'why people feel the need to say Tiger's has abused Steroids'. There's a psychotherapy called NLP that uses a description of people's perception called 'maps of reality'. You've got 7 billion people with their own 'map of reality'... the thing they use to perceive the 'reality' and things around them. 2 identical twins are split at birth, and raised by different parents. Maybe an overall positive household, and negative household. The two reunite at some points and are walking through a mall. A group of teenagers pass snickering. Twin A and her map of reality might believe it was because one of the passing teens liked her and was nervously laughing as they passed. Twin B and her map believes they are laughing at 'her nose'. It's so big and ugly and everywhere she goes 'people stare it'. Now, in reality the teens were laughing at a picture on one of their phones and were completely oblivious to the passing twins. But to Twin A, and B... what happened in their reality... is REALITY... even though it was not. The belief is so strong, it IS what happened, and it's the way they'll remember it forever. They can't help but think another way. The negative twin was raised in a negative household for so long, that everything in her reality seems to be similar.

Imagine for a second, that something comes out and it 100% irrefutably proves that no god exists. Imagine taking all the 'believers' who have believed for at least 30 year. How many do you think would change their minds. I would argue slim to none. It would not only shatter the only reality they've ever known... but it would shatter their identity and who it has made them. They would pass it off as 'the devil playing his tricks' and go on believing.

The same goes for people's perception of success, whether it's professional sport, owning a successful business, working out, etc. They are so set in their own reality and identity that 'success comes from luck, perfect opportunity, and some secret' that to think that anyone, even they, could achieve it via hard work and determination blows away their reality and identity. They can't accept it much like the religious fanatic. So they disregard it, choosing to stay in their little comfort bubble of reality.

[cheetah440]

[quote name='Yrrdead' timestamp='1400804820' post='9350549']
[quote name='cheetah440' timestamp='1400801521' post='9350255']
[quote name='ExProGoingBack' timestamp='1400800542' post='9350147']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400800030' post='9350109'][quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1400787879' post='9348813']
Wait did I just read correctly Tiger is 245 lbs? Haha. Wow lots of ignorance about exercise, muscle gain and what a steroid is in this thread from BOTH sides of the coin.
[/quote]

If he had taken juice, the way he trained, he *would* have been 230+

All I see is a "hard gainer" who lifted his *ss off and only gained 20-30lbs over a long period of time, *years*, as he hit his early-mid 20s. Maybe hit 200lbs.

Anybody on the breakfast of champions who lifts and eats big can gain 25lbs

In 3 months.

I've seen it, when you see it, you know it.[/quote]
Anyone? I guess I have hope then....
[/quote]
Yes, anyone. Provided you actually lifted heavy and ate, yes. You can't just take it and sit on the couch. Contrary to popular myth, you actually have to still work out......
[/quote]

Actually you can just take it and sit on the couch.

[url="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101#t=articleTop"]http://www.nejm.org/...01#t=articleTop[/url]
[/quote]

Wow, great study....certainly does answer a lot of questions about some very lazy looking lifters......And I mean lazy, little effort, waling around barely working and getting big week after week...

[QuigleyDU]

You can call me a cynic of you want. I am ok with that. But in todays sporting world with paydays that are available. I think they are all guilty.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='cheetah440' timestamp='1401294268' post='9382313']
[quote name='Yrrdead' timestamp='1400804820' post='9350549']
Actually you can just take it and sit on the couch.

[url="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101#t=articleTop"]http://www.nejm.org/...01#t=articleTop[/url]
[/quote]

Wow, great study....certainly does answer a lot of questions about some very lazy looking lifters......And I mean lazy, little effort, waling around barely working and getting big week after week...
[/quote]As one who deals with medical/surgical studies for a living, and KellyGreen is far more qualified to speak to this if he would like, and that is that a study, even with the controls such as these, usually, show what someone, some where associated with the study, wants them to show. Call it a close cousin to "confirmation bias," if you will, lol. As long as human beings are involved in the chain, especially a "light" study such as this steroid/HGH "study," I would take it with a grain of salt, though if it confirms your previously held beliefs or opinions, or can be used to support your side of a discussion, hey, all's good, lol. And yes, I realize that it's from the NEJM, though as I said, you tell em what color you'd like, and what flavor, and they'll serve it up to you, showing what you need to show, LMAO.

So, excuse me if I look at this particular "blind" one with skepticism, lol. LMAO, as they freely admit that 4 of the participants developed acne, with 3 being in the testosterone grouping, so right there, without even digging further, they've compromised 4 of their 11 participants in that group(27.27%), so forget "blind" regarding them, as if you have an IQ over 90, and you're past puberty or your teens(which they were), and you've heard of the potential side effects of androgenic steroids, then you can successfully guess which group that you were in, though in full disclosure, one individual from the placebo group developed acne. They tried to play that off because they didn't know what group that they were in, LMAO. I'll betcha they guessed correctly, lol. And I believe that 1 or 2 developed breast sensitivity, which again, is a side effect. So, now you have 6 participants comprimised. My only point is that "blind" and even a "double blind" is relative, lol.

I have never seen, though again, in full disclosure, while prior to my health issues, I worked out in a gym, it's been over 20 years since since I've been in the type of gym that I worked out in in college and into my early 30's, that being one with "serious" lifters and amateur and professional body-builders such as Somaplr, so I have been out of the loop, if you will, of being around those that could truly benefit from PEDs. That being said, I have never seen someone who, #1, spent the coin that has to be spent for a legitimate PED program, and they either did nothing, or just walked around a gym, looking in a mirror, watching & waiting to get huge, lol, especially getting cut, because, and Somaplr can speak to this much better than I, though diet is HUGE, in developing the cut mass.

Most steroids are synthetic derivatives of testosterone. Testosterone in and of itself is anabolic(supports muscle growth) as well as androgenic(supports and manifests male characteristics). Some anabolic steroids are produced to take advantage of all of the anabolic effects without the androgenic ones. It all depends on the compound that you are using. I think the two most popular ones, at least from what I can remember, are testosterone and Deca(Nandrolone).

1) Testosterone- Whether you work out or not, testosterone will cause your libido to go through the rough. It will support moderate weight loss and you can also gain a little weight(in the form of H2O, fat with a tad of muscle thrown in). And yes, testosterone is SO anabolic, that you will gain a little muscle even if you do not work out. You may not notice it in the mirror or on the scale, though it will happen. You will also get the regular "nasty" androgenic side effects and estrogen side effects if ancillary drugs are not used. You have to trust me here, though a PED program is not for the fantasy filled minds of an idiot. This can be some nasty sh*t.

2) Deca( Nandrolone)- This is an anabolic steroid with minimal androgenic side effects. Using this and not working out will greatly inhibit and potentially shut down natural testosterone production, and it will also put the kabosh on your ability to "perform." This is usually countered by exogenous, counter acting compounds, though again, unless you've got a doc on your "team," do you really wanna mess with this stuff, lol? You may gain a little weight, though little or no muscle unless you work out. It's related to "Wolff's Law," it's immutable and in stone.

As I said earlier, and I'm guessing here, though I'd say that GOOD growth is about 70-75% DIET. The dramatic gains that are associated with PEDS take place when an individual has a the right stuff, in the right amount combined with the right workout program and diet.

And it depends greatly on the compound(s) that you are using. There are hundreds of compounds, and I know of 8-10 different estrified testosterone types and literally hundreds of anabolics used by athletes. The stuff that the top athletes use, be they amateur or pro, though the PEDs that these athletes are using is very, very expensive. You're talking about stuff that the oversight & testing organizations don't even know exists at this time, LMAO.

Bottom line, I just couldn't see spending the money, and taking the risks, to just ingest a PED with no further effort.

That would have to be one wealthy, clueless individual, LMAO, though I guess that we've got a few of those around;)

Though this as gotten off of the topic, lol, I was skeptical of the topic in the first place, and it's just hard to sit back and have Guys posting stuff, and making comments about stuff, that are blatantly inaccurate, and if an individual reads them and gives them credibility or takes them as accurate or fact, well, they can do serious harm to themselves. I'm obviously speaking to some of the younger members who peruse these pages.

I do not have an opinion, one way or the other regarding Tiger. I respect him as an athlete and competitor.

Regardless of what he does or doesn't do, at the end of the day, or I guess, the end of the hole, the only thing that matters is "how many?"

And last time I looked, there wasn't a PED to lower that number.

Have a great evening.

My Best,
Richard

[topr]

I need adderall just to make it all way through some of these posts.

[cxx]

[quote name='topr' timestamp='1401328105' post='9386117']
I need adderall just to make it all way through some of these posts.
[/quote]
Some do test the reader's stamina.

[bellview17]

[quote name='QuigleyDU' timestamp='1401289993' post='9381831']
I would guarantee that everyone on this forum has taken a steroid or two in their life.
[/quote]

Everyday, nose spray for allergies..... (wait tiger has allergies doesn't he)

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='bellview17' timestamp='1402015253' post='9439201']
[quote name='QuigleyDU' timestamp='1401289993' post='9381831']
I would guarantee that everyone on this forum has taken a steroid or two in their life.
[/quote]

Everyday, nose spray for allergies..... (wait tiger has allergies doesn't he)
[/quote]

Shhhhhh. You're giving away the golfwrx secret to 390 drives, man.

[king_biscuit]

[quote name='rafer11' timestamp='1401229443' post='9376981']
Good post.

I don't think many out there seriously believe Tiger took steroids. Those who use the phrase are typically in one of the following camps

1) Those who like to get a rise out of Tiger fanboys
2) Those who despise Tiger and use it as a dig. (We all do this to some extent. I think Milan Lucic is a great player, but if he's playing the Habs I'll be calling him all sort of things for the series. You won't hear me saying nice things about Tim Duncan come the NBA finals this year either )
3) Those who 'need' to believe it to keep from shattering their reality of what they believe the world is. (You'll often hear the middle class say "I don't need money" or "Money is not that important" etc to hold onto the belief that there must be some 'secret' in getting rich. Maybe a friend of their got rich and they think "Oh man. LUCKY [as if luck had anything to do with it] John. I wonder 'HOW' he did it" as if there is some magical secret and formula to getting rich. The majority of people believe this. It's called hard work. By this same token, people's realities can't accept that someone could be THIS successful without some 'secret', some formula, some '30 second abs' magic pill. Here's the reality. A guy like Tiger Woods, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, or insert your favorite capable human here... is simply harder working than you. You want to know their secret, read The Slight Edge. Their secret is that when put in in a situation and faced with a very small and insignificant decision... they make the correct decision every time.

Robert Herjavic told a story about how Woods was to play a game with himself and some others up in the Maritimes. In Tiger's contract, it states a pilot cannot land in an airport after dark if the pilot has not landed there before. The plane had to turn around, and he had to be flown by helicopter all the way there. Robert said Tiger arrived at something like 3am, dead tired, and was up at 4am in the Hotel gym working out. You see... when #3 is faced with this decision, he turns his alarm off for 'just 10 more minutes'. He wakes up at 10, and proceeds to do the same with every other little decision in his life. January 1st he heads to the gym to fulfill his yearly promise to himself, which no doubt will be broken in under 4 weeks. He goes on a diet as well. "Should I have this Snickers bar or this Carrot? Hmm. It's only this one little Snickers bar, plus I ran an extra half mile today so I can afford it." Thing is... every time #3 is faced with this decision... this seemingly small, unimportant decision... he chooses the impulse, the short term... not the long term goal. 3 weeks in he went to bed 'late' [2 hours] and in the morning he 'doesn't want to tax his body with only 5 of sleep and a workout' so he'll just 'go tomorrow'. This is the end of his yearly news year resolution. 365 days later, he's had the 'insignificant just one time' snickers bar worth 300 calories, which is packing on ~1lb every 2 weeks.

The majority of people are #3 type personalities. They cannot understand the likes of a successful person like Tiger Woods or Arnold without some sort explanation like cheating being behind it because it would shatter their reality of what is possible.
[/quote]

Where did you get your degree in sociology?

[Sean2]

My own personal opinion? (And that's what all these are is opinions)

I don't think Mr. Woods took any PEDs. Why? He would want to win on his own merits. For example, he would want to beat Mr. Nicklaus straight up. If he won with the help of PEDs he would know that he really didn't win, and I don't think that would sit right with him.

Granted, I may not be Mr. Woods greatest fan, but he strikes me as the type who takes pride in doing it "on his own". I just don't think he is a PED type guy.

ps: speaking of bumper stickers. Back in 1971, I was on my way to a Grateful Dead concert and saw this on the back of a VW bus: Don't switch Dick's in the middle of a screw, vote for Nixon in '72.

[king_biscuit]

Here is my opinion: whether Tiger took PEDs or not only he and his "doctors" know. I do believe that Tiger would use whatever advantage he could get away with to win, as he doesn't strike me as particularly honest or ethical.

[rbhan12]

I didn't even know this was a rumor?

This was him in 94.

[attachment=2261995:tiger_94.jpg]

This is him this year (or close).

[attachment=2261997:tiger_2014.jpg]

I'd believe (and happily do) that over 20 years, he could easily gain that amount of muscle.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='king_biscuit' timestamp='1402019700' post='9439673']
Here is my opinion: whether Tiger took PEDs or not only he and his "doctors" know. I do believe that Tiger would use whatever advantage he could get away with to win, as he doesn't strike me as particularly honest or ethical.
[/quote]

Here's an "advantage"

; )

http://youtu.be/fae3RhlIJVo

You think he was taking peds here?

[king_biscuit]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402023386' post='9440049']
[quote name='king_biscuit' timestamp='1402019700' post='9439673']
Here is my opinion: whether Tiger took PEDs or not only he and his "doctors" know. I do believe that Tiger would use whatever advantage he could get away with to win, as he doesn't strike me as particularly honest or ethical.
[/quote]

Here's an "advantage"

; )

[media=]http://youtu.be/fae3RhlIJVo[/media]

You think he was taking peds here?
[/quote]

Who knows, but I can hit a nine 150 yards too. I'll bet he can hit it closer to 200 now

[golfortennis]

Pheww, I was starting to worry that the "speculation needs to end" was losing steam. Good to see it brought back to its rightful place.