The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[golfcarte]

He is not 185, at his peak in 2001-2002 he as at least 245. Even if he did not take anything, his

body could not hold that weight....

 

Here is Tiger in December 2002. If he is 245 then Phil and Freddie are like 490 ; )

 

 

with apologies to kadin, i must caption this picture...

 

tiger: even this guy has won the masters! (remember, this is 2002 we are talking about here.)

 

phil: you're kidding me, right?

 

tiger: i'll bet you $100.

 

phil: i'm checking my pockets right now, i don't have that kind of money on me. i just gave my last $100 to the locker room attendant.

[Scotty1140]

@bscinstnct

Not all, no. But I will agree with you for the most part. That's a pretty accurate statement.

But this is getting off topic (probably the best for this thread) so I don't want to keep this going cause I doubt anyone really cares haha.

[Tiger512]

[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400678982' post='9338607']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400667671' post='9337781']
After he won his last major (June 2008) he had knee surgery and took time off. It was also a month before the PGA started the drug testing, 7/08. Since then Tiger hasn't won a major.
[/quote]

And yet he's won more than anyone else on tour? I guess they really cracked down on the Major only PEDs he's been popping.
[/quote]

He can win all the tournaments he wants but he hasn't won a major since they started the drug testing. That's a long drought. Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1400812035' post='9351385']
@bscinstnct

Not all, no. But I will agree with you for the most part. That's a pretty accurate statement.

But this is getting off topic (probably the best for this thread) so I don't want to keep this going cause I doubt anyone really cares haha.
[/quote]

Cheers. You can juice and not gain. But then, why bother?

I will say, no juice for me but I guarantee I'll gain poundage this Memorial Day.

Led Zeppelin - Rock And Roll (Studio Version - Be…: http://youtu.be/P14ia9cKwVA

[Sean2]

Great song. :-)

[TheOne85]

I went from 150 to 190 in 6 months when I was 18. Lifting and taking weight gainers. 40 lbs in 6 years could be done without even trying.

[ExProGoingBack]

[attachment=2238591:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1400814386.046522.jpg]

I lift things up and put them down

[somaplr]

[quote name='bellview17' timestamp='1400784257' post='9348401']He is not 185, at his peak in 2001-2002 he as at least 245. Even if he did not take anything, his
body could not hold that weight....[/quote]

This is what the 245 range looks like, not Tiger sorry [attachment=2238615:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1400816636.655669.jpg]

[playa]

[quote name='pmo09' timestamp='1400647405' post='9337287']
Hopefully the name of this thread isn't breaking any rules, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Every time there is any type of article regarding Woods, there are always a ton of comments saying he uses steroids/PEDs, or other illegal substances and that is why he has accomplished what he has. Look, nobody knows the real truth except for Tiger, but the key point I want to make is that there is [b]literally no evidence, or hint of evidence to suggest that he has not been clean his entire career.[/b]

Take a minute to take that all in.

Those who argue for PED use tend to make 2 general arguments:[list]
[*]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005
[*]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED abuse
[/list]
Lets break these down into why they are ridiculous arguments

[u][b]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005[/b][/u]
This is the most common argument, and my favourite to dissect because it shows how little people actually know about fitness, and how desperately they feel the need to discredit others accomplishments to make themselves feel better.

First of all, yes, unquestionably Tiger got bigger from his first masters victory in 1997, to about 2005. What people need to understand, is that Tiger went from around 140lbs, to about 180-190lbs in 2005. At 6'1, 140lbs is grossly underweight, and 180-190 is normal. This is not taking into account for an athletic build.

Obviously, Tiger likes to workout, a fact that has been well documented over the years. To gain 40 pounds in 8 years is by no means suspicious, especially with a dedicated weight regime. He did not suddenly become big, it was very gradual. Also, Tiger is not at big as the media and TV people say he is. All this "football linebacker" and bodybuilder talk is incredibly exaggerated. 6'1 185lbs is nothing more than athletic. If you saw that walking down the street (and I bet you do every single day), you wouldn't look twice.

Adding fuel to the fire is that there is probably no other player on tour that looks like Tiger. Nobody else has lifted for power and explosiveness in the way in which he has. The media tries to play up guys like Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland as guys who are real muscular players, but in reality are beanpole thin. Then, there was the Camilo Villegagas 'bodybuilder' like talk for a period of 2008-2010. I would be surprised if camilo weighed more than 140lbs soaking wet

Secondly, part of human psychology is that people always like to try and discredit the accomplishments of others by blaming it on external factors to make themselves feel better. People see what they want to see, and if that means blaming all the majors on PED use rather than hard work and effort, than so be it. My questions is this - was Tiger on PED's when he was 2 and on national TV for his golf ability? What about when he was 5 and beating 10 year olds in local events? How about when he was winning state championships and US amateurs?

[u][b]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED Abuse[/b][/u]
In short - No, it doesn't.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim a 38 year old, aging athletes injuries are from PED use rather than from wear and tear on his body. Aside from golfing every day for probably almost his entire life, he was known to run 6 miles a day in his 20's, as well as to participate in Navy SEAL training missions (and in Haney's book, he mentions that Tiger's knee issues were caused from a Navy seal kicking him in the knee while off balance). Correlation does not mean causation.

He's getting old for his sport. He probably has 10 years ahead of him to be competitive, but like any athlete, he's done a lot to his body. To simply blame it on PED's is not only unfounded, but an insult to any other athlete who has seen performance suffer due to injury in his later years.


So lets say, for arguments sake, that Tiger did take some sort of PED in his career - what would the benefits be? Specifically speaking about steroids, they promote increased muscle development. Would this make Tiger hit the ball further? Maybe, but guys like Bubba, Mcilroy, and John Daly have shown us all sorts of body types get the job done in regards to distance. Surely they wouldn't help Tiger with his short game, putting, or focus. So what real benefit would that leave? A potential for an increase in distance? That's a really weak argument.
[/quote]
I don't have an opinion either way but I think you should include his dodgy doctor when mentioning arguments that has did take PEDs. That's almost a smoking gun.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

PEDs should be mandatory for every PGA Tour player. I want to see the long ball. We're the fans, guys. We can drive this change, so to speak.

[Shankieboink]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1400793779' post='9349481']
PEDs are not only steroids and HGH. Why does every thread about this topic always cocentrate on these two groups of substances?
[/quote]

In this case it's becuse some people think he bulked up to fast (steroids). That's why this discussion was started at all. However, if you ever been lifting or training at some what serious level you know it's totally absurd since the amount he gained is not that impressive at all. If you want to start an other thread on how Tiger might have cheated, feel free to do so becuse the muscle gaining argument is just stupid. I'm sure you guys are able to come up with something a bit more creative than this.

[flanker25]

[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1400807602' post='9350839']

But even then 'heavy' is a relative term. Just because you lift heavy doesn't mean you'll get big. Lifting for muscle gain and lifting for strength don't always mean the same thing. Strength and size don't always run parallel with each other.

I had a guy set a PR (personal record) with his conventional dead lift on Tuesday. He pulled 415 x 1......he weighed in at 171lbs that day! I'm 6'2" 195, 9.5% BF. Visually, I look much stronger than him. I haven't pulled more than 330 in probably 5 years. If I tried 415 today, I'd be next to Tiger on the operating table tomorrow haha.

Both sides of the coin here are making crazy leaps based on someone's athletic appearance. Both Lance Armstrong and Marc McGwire admitted to taking PED's (well Big Mac kind of 'admitted' haha). Talk about two different body types there. 'Steroids' can be a lot of things.

Tiger could be 20 lean lbs heavier and could be totally clean. He could also look exactly like he did when he was 20 and be dirty.
[/quote]

Lance Armstrong admitted to blood doping, that's quite a bit different from HGH.

[J13]

Being that I use to be heavily into the world of bodybuilding being a personal trainer working with some professionals they would laugh at the assumption that Tiger Woods did PED's like steroids. His weight gain was normal an actually could have been more if he was training differently. As for HGH Tiger shows zero signs of that.

Lots of uneducated people like to talk about this stuff and 95% of what they think or "know" is wrong. Heck most doctors have little to no idea about hormones trust me I work around them daily.

[27x10.5]

I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his overall physical makeup rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.

[epixep]

[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400813415' post='9351579']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400678982' post='9338607']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400667671' post='9337781']
After he won his last major (June 2008) he had knee surgery and took time off. It was also a month before the PGA started the drug testing, 7/08. Since then Tiger hasn't won a major.
[/quote]

And yet he's won more than anyone else on tour? I guess they really cracked down on the Major only PEDs he's been popping.
[/quote]

He can win all the tournaments he wants but he hasn't won a major since they started the drug testing. That's a long drought. Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know.
[/quote]

So the drug testing is preventing him from winning majors but not normal tour events?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400848247' post='9352919']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400813415' post='9351579']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400678982' post='9338607']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400667671' post='9337781']
After he won his last major (June 2008) he had knee surgery and took time off. It was also a month before the PGA started the drug testing, 7/08. Since then Tiger hasn't won a major.
[/quote]

And yet he's won more than anyone else on tour? I guess they really cracked down on the Major only PEDs he's been popping.
[/quote]

He can win all the tournaments he wants but he hasn't won a major since they started the drug testing. That's a long drought. Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know.
[/quote]

So the drug testing is preventing him from winning majors but not normal tour events?
[/quote]

Sounds like they found a way to test for the major only tiger secret drug he was taking.

[J13]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1400849240' post='9353009']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400848247' post='9352919']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400813415' post='9351579']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400678982' post='9338607']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400667671' post='9337781']
After he won his last major (June 2008) he had knee surgery and took time off. It was also a month before the PGA started the drug testing, 7/08. Since then Tiger hasn't won a major.
[/quote]

And yet he's won more than anyone else on tour? I guess they really cracked down on the Major only PEDs he's been popping.
[/quote]

He can win all the tournaments he wants but he hasn't won a major since they started the drug testing. That's a long drought. Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know.
[/quote]

So the drug testing is preventing him from winning majors but not normal tour events?
[/quote]



Sounds like they found a way to test for the major only tiger secret drug he was taking.
[/quote]

Looks like they found out about methylmajorosterone

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400813415' post='9351579']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1400678982' post='9338607']
[quote name='Tiger512' timestamp='1400667671' post='9337781']
After he won his last major (June 2008) he had knee surgery and took time off. It was also a month before the PGA started the drug testing, 7/08. Since then Tiger hasn't won a major.
[/quote]

And yet he's won more than anyone else on tour? I guess they really cracked down on the Major only PEDs he's been popping.
[/quote]

He can win all the tournaments he wants but he hasn't won a major since they started the drug testing. That's a long drought. Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know.
[/quote]

Its innuendo. That's what it is.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1400823723' post='9352219']
[quote name='pmo09' timestamp='1400647405' post='9337287']
Hopefully the name of this thread isn't breaking any rules, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Every time there is any type of article regarding Woods, there are always a ton of comments saying he uses steroids/PEDs, or other illegal substances and that is why he has accomplished what he has. Look, nobody knows the real truth except for Tiger, but the key point I want to make is that there is [b]literally no evidence, or hint of evidence to suggest that he has not been clean his entire career.[/b]

Take a minute to take that all in.

Those who argue for PED use tend to make 2 general arguments:[list]
[*]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005
[*]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED abuse
[/list]
Lets break these down into why they are ridiculous arguments

[u][b]He got bigger from the period of 1997-2005[/b][/u]
This is the most common argument, and my favourite to dissect because it shows how little people actually know about fitness, and how desperately they feel the need to discredit others accomplishments to make themselves feel better.

First of all, yes, unquestionably Tiger got bigger from his first masters victory in 1997, to about 2005. What people need to understand, is that Tiger went from around 140lbs, to about 180-190lbs in 2005. At 6'1, 140lbs is grossly underweight, and 180-190 is normal. This is not taking into account for an athletic build.

Obviously, Tiger likes to workout, a fact that has been well documented over the years. To gain 40 pounds in 8 years is by no means suspicious, especially with a dedicated weight regime. He did not suddenly become big, it was very gradual. Also, Tiger is not at big as the media and TV people say he is. All this "football linebacker" and bodybuilder talk is incredibly exaggerated. 6'1 185lbs is nothing more than athletic. If you saw that walking down the street (and I bet you do every single day), you wouldn't look twice.

Adding fuel to the fire is that there is probably no other player on tour that looks like Tiger. Nobody else has lifted for power and explosiveness in the way in which he has. The media tries to play up guys like Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland as guys who are real muscular players, but in reality are beanpole thin. Then, there was the Camilo Villegagas 'bodybuilder' like talk for a period of 2008-2010. I would be surprised if camilo weighed more than 140lbs soaking wet

Secondly, part of human psychology is that people always like to try and discredit the accomplishments of others by blaming it on external factors to make themselves feel better. People see what they want to see, and if that means blaming all the majors on PED use rather than hard work and effort, than so be it. My questions is this - was Tiger on PED's when he was 2 and on national TV for his golf ability? What about when he was 5 and beating 10 year olds in local events? How about when he was winning state championships and US amateurs?

[u][b]His injuries for the later half of his 30s supposedly show signs of PED Abuse[/b][/u]
In short - No, it doesn't.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim a 38 year old, aging athletes injuries are from PED use rather than from wear and tear on his body. Aside from golfing every day for probably almost his entire life, he was known to run 6 miles a day in his 20's, as well as to participate in Navy SEAL training missions (and in Haney's book, he mentions that Tiger's knee issues were caused from a Navy seal kicking him in the knee while off balance). Correlation does not mean causation.

He's getting old for his sport. He probably has 10 years ahead of him to be competitive, but like any athlete, he's done a lot to his body. To simply blame it on PED's is not only unfounded, but an insult to any other athlete who has seen performance suffer due to injury in his later years.


So lets say, for arguments sake, that Tiger did take some sort of PED in his career - what would the benefits be? Specifically speaking about steroids, they promote increased muscle development. Would this make Tiger hit the ball further? Maybe, but guys like Bubba, Mcilroy, and John Daly have shown us all sorts of body types get the job done in regards to distance. Surely they wouldn't help Tiger with his short game, putting, or focus. So what real benefit would that leave? A potential for an increase in distance? That's a really weak argument.
[/quote]
I don't have an opinion either way but I think you should include his dodgy doctor when mentioning arguments that has did take PEDs. That's almost a smoking gun.
[/quote]


You mean the "dodgy doctor" who has never accused Tiger of doing anything illegal, and has said DIRECTLY that Tiger had not...and that the only thing he did for Tiger was to spin down blood and inject platelets concentrates into his knee.

(a "treatment" that probably did nothing but seperate Tiger from his money).

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?

[nochct1]

Alright, after 5 pages, I think I figured it our.....he decided to take PEDs after struggling as an Amateur and then not living up to the expectations when he turned pro. He was a skinny guy growing up, and was at a disadvantage when playing against bigger opponents. He struggled to keep up with their distance and wasn't able to win those big USGA events.

And when he turned pro, he realized that he was still skinny and wouldn't be able to win at the pro level unless he took PEDs in order to keep up with the older guys on tour.

Those PEDs eventually made him a bigger and stronger player. So big in fact that number of NFL teams were asking him to play strong safety, or in some cases linebacker. Once he got to 245lbs he decided to cut back on the PEDs because the tour started testing. And while he eventually got back to number 1 in the world (after a divorce, a year of bad publicity and a swing change), he is unable to win a major because he has stopped taking PEDs. Of course he is still able to win 5 times in one year, including the Players Championship and WGC, but in the past he was taking special PEDs that knew that the Players Championship wasn't the 5th major and never was going to be.

[Playaway]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400855418' post='9353711']
[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?
[/quote]

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1400857183' post='9353941']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400855418' post='9353711']
[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?
[/quote]

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. [b]Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.[/b]

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.
[/quote]

You have a point there as far as TW not seeming satisfied. But I don't see where the benefit of PEDs is for TW given his existing skills. To me, it just looks like he took fitness seriously and worked very hard.

He should get respect not suspicion.

In the case of Bonds, Mac, Sosa. They were already really good, but wanted to be the best. I think Arod said he wanted to hit 800 hr.

In TWs case, he was always the best by a wide margin. More likely that the guys on the bubble or trying to chase TW took steroids than he did.

[farmer]

The spoon stirring the pot is the knee-Galea connection. And Kelly may be right, the only juicing was Galea's bank account. He was just so good at his peak that it's hard for some to imagine that he wasn't doing something. My opinion, completely unsubstantiated, is that he skipped holes.

[klbrown514]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1400857183' post='9353941']

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [b][u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.[/b]

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.
[/quote]

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but just to clarify Lance Armstrong was "blood doping". That is the process of increasing red blood cells in the body in order to increase aerobic capacity. That is something that a golfer would not need. It doesn't help with injuries, it doesn't help with concentration and it doesn't help you hit a golf ball any farther, The Lance Armstrong analogy just doesn't jive when it comes to Tiger. Apples and cinder blocks would have more in common.

[somaplr]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1400857183' post='9353941']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400855418' post='9353711']
[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?
[/quote]

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.
[/quote]

The vehicle?

Little footnote here - all great athletes are great b/c they out trained the next guy. That's what the best of the best do. It has no bearing whatsoever. As mentioned, above Lance was blood doping, and it's what, in the past, about 50% of the guys did. Cycling is the dirtiest sport there...there is absolutely zero comparison between the two. Again, people need to educate themselves here a little before assuming what's going on.

Stenson, Tiger and the like, again, are not big people.

How many guys that think Tiger took steroids actually lift weights 4-5 times a week and follow a 40/40/20 diet? Zero.

[epixep]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1400857183' post='9353941']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400855418' post='9353711']
[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?
[/quote]

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.
[/quote]

McGuire and Armstrong have admitted their doping.

Sosa, Bonds and McGuire used steroids to hit a baseball as far as possible regardless of direction or finesse. Lance Armstrong blood doped to increase his endurance because he was riding a bike for literally hundreds of miles. Tiger walks 18 holes, with someone else carrying his bag, playing a game that requires far more touch and feel than it does strength.

He could very well be doping, but I wouldn't care and (for me) it would take nothing away from his career. That goes for any professional golfer. Now, if someone was uses beta blockers - that's a different discussion (and one could argue that a lack of emotion is a bad thing in golf). Either way, golf is a game of mental fortitude at the highest level. Tiger Woods didn't win 13 majors because he was the strongest or the longest (he wasn't in either category), or the best putter, or the best wedge player (neither in both, as well).

Have you ever done anabolic steroids, peptides, or growth hormone? They don't help you score.

[golfortennis]

epixep, none of those directly help you score. Well, not on the course anyway. But depending what you take, they can make a world of difference in your ability to work out, recover, and/or practice a lot more. Like someone said earlier, he outworked everybody(or is the conventional wisdom). How much is "outwork"? 500 balls a day? 1,000? How many hours spent on the short game?

A guy with that violent a swing who has lived on a driving range since he was about 7 practicing might want to figure out a way to make sure he can still put in as much practice as he can.

There is no benefit to him directly from a strength perspective. Between the quality of his swing, the angles he creates, he has more than enough power for anything. He didn't want/need to get any longer. His increase in size is not something that can't be done by anyone who is religious about going to the gym.

Whatever he took, if he did(I think he did-the doctor connection is just wayyyyy too coincidental), he did so to ensure he could practice as hard as he always did/wanted to, and not be worn out by the time the tournaments came around.

Think about the last time any of you spent more than 2 hours on the range. My guess is 95%(including myself) are anywhere from sore to out of commission the next day. Now multiply that by likely at least 3, and do that day after day after day...... something is going to break down. Unless....

[teckneeklyperfect]

Most PED's ( steroids )= modern medicine. Someday all this won't even be an issue, someday

[Playaway]

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1400861120' post='9354405']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1400857183' post='9353941']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1400855418' post='9353711']
[quote name='27x10.5' timestamp='1400846642' post='9352791']
I hate the argument that 'he wasn't big enough to Have taken roids'. It's not about getting big, I'm sure what he may have allegedly taken would be for[b] recovery, reflexes, concentration and anti-aging[/b]. Like I said before, the couple guys talking about it were commenting on his [b]overall physical makeup[/b] rather than sheer size in like 2007 that would suggest he was taking something. I'd never fault him for it if he did, stuff is going to be legal within 10 years, guaranteed. HGH is like the craziest anti-aging substance out there..just no good for those with a high risk of cancer because it can accelerate cancer cell reproduction.
[/quote]

Top player in the game, in his 20s when the body recovers fastest, outstanding natural reflexes and concentration ability off the charts.

What would the purpose be? He was already kicking the crap out of everyone.

More likely that everyone else took PEDs to keep up with him.

And his "overall physical makeup"?

You mean looking like a normal 6', 185lb guy who works out?
[/quote]

Well, when you frame it like that then there might be something there. Tiger was one to always want to improve, no matter what.

Yes, he was kicking the crap out of everyone. But, IMHO, that wasn't enough. He wanted to pinch of their heads and sh*t down their throats, kinda like Pebble in 2000.

Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Armstrong . . . . all supermen. And all denying it, even to this day.

And the theory of Tiger not getting big enough (the bodybuilder guys) what the heck was [u]Lance Armstrong[/u] using? He didn't get big. He looked like a fit, sweaty mosquito. But he dominated.

Armstrong wanted to out-train the next guy. Sounds like Tiger dead on.

IMO, Tiger was great because he outworked everybody.

You see some guys today who work on it and have a great stretch. Look at Kaymer right now. He is fit as a fiddle and absolutely strumming it. Instead of picking strawberries, he is working on his game, hard. Same with Stenson (course, he looks a little too buffed too)

You never know how good these guys could be if they all worked on it like Tiger did. That was the difference, and Tiger's little helper was, in part, the vehicle.
[/quote]

The vehicle?

Little footnote here - all great athletes are great b/c they out trained the next guy. That's what the best of the best do. It has no bearing whatsoever. As mentioned, above Lance was blood doping, and it's what, in the past, about 50% of the guys did. Cycling is the dirtiest sport there...there is absolutely zero comparison between the two. Again, people need to educate themselves here a little before assuming what's going on.

Stenson, Tiger and the like, again, are not big people.

How many guys that think Tiger took steroids actually lift weights 4-5 times a week and follow a 40/40/20 diet? Zero.
[/quote]

Yes, the vehicle. I am not saying he may have taken anything to make him bigger. I am saying that he may have taken something that allowed him to work harder and recover faster which is well documented that some of this stuff can do. Same thing with the cardio/Lance thing. It enhances his ability to work on his game.

It comes to a point where there are just too many coincidences to ignore. But I know that in your mind, Tiger can do no wrong. I was with ya until he f*cked around his wife and children with all the Perkins, Rachael stuff. We saw the REAL Tiger there. That is a distinct character flaw and one that dovetails into cheating in golf, or anything he does.

I don't think he was doing anything illegal in 2000/early in his career. He was awesome. Skinny, but awesome.

IMHO, he may have gone a little too far trying to improve or keep his margin between himself and his competition. If you don't know it now you will know soon that as you age it is tougher to stay fit. There is more pain and you must work harder. Taking something to make the recovery faster would be nirvana.