The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[golfortennis]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]

Well hold on a second here. Are you restaring the "are golfers athletes" debate? Just because there isn't a running or jumping component, doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. Hell, his hand-eye coordination is probably as good or better than many, many professional athletes. Different sports have different requirements. Or, the decathlon is the only sport out there.

I can't believe I'm defending Woods....although I do think he did. This is all just reading too much like the Lance Armstrong script...

[hogans71]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1402590829' post='9480829']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]

Well hold on a second here. Are you restaring the "are golfers athletes" debate? Just because there isn't a running or jumping component, doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. Hell, his hand-eye coordination is probably as good or better than many, many professional athletes. Different sports have different requirements. Or, the decathlon is the only sport out there.

I can't believe I'm defending Woods....although I do think he did. This is all just reading too much like the Lance Armstrong script...
[/quote]

Not necessarily- I believe it takes a great deal of athletic skill to do what they do. and clearly he sits at or near the top for obvious reasons. But does that make him a "great" athlete? I suppose compared to most on Tour, yes. Generally speaking? In my opinion, no. And after watching the Chicago Blackhawks during their last playoff run, up close and personal twice, i can say THOSE guys are GREAT athletes. Speed, stamina, strength, ridiculous hand/eye coordination, all on skates, all the while wondering at what point your going to be bounced into the boards...


Yeah, little different..

[TraderDevil]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1402590829' post='9480829']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]

Well hold on a second here. Are you restaring the "are golfers athletes" debate? Just because there isn't a running or jumping component, doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. Hell, his hand-eye coordination is probably as good or better than many, many professional athletes. Different sports have different requirements. Or, the decathlon is the only sport out there.

I can't believe I'm defending Woods....although I do think he did. This is all just reading too much like the Lance Armstrong script...
[/quote]

Except it's nothing like the Lance Armstrong script.

[bscinstnct]

I understand Torreys speculation.

 

But in the end the facts only point to this,

 

TW is a great athlete who got injured.

 

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

 

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

 

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...

 

Look. Nike T-shirt. Backwards hat. Doesn't that qualify? And you gotta be an athlete to handle L-Vo, no?

 

; )

 

[hogans71]

I understand Torreys speculation.

 

But in the end the facts only point to this,

 

TW is a great athlete who got injured.

 

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

 

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

 

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...

 

Look. Nike T-shirt. Backwards hat. Doesn't that qualify? And you gotta be an athlete to handle L-Vo, no?

 

; )

 

 

Without a doubt- how'd I miss that? :)

[tembolo1284]

Good god she must just kill him. Twice a day minimum.

[farmer]

Sorry, but unless you're a welder, 38 is too old for a backwards cap. Lindsay is, in fact, a fine looking woman. Fact, something of a rarity in this thread.

[TorreyPines]

"He was a golf prodigy and dominated at every level he played before tapering off and slowing down in his mid 30s. If he was taking PEDs then he probably would have improved in his later years.

For someone with such a strong opinion and seems to know a lot about golf, I'm surprised he didn't come your radar until 2000. I think you would find that he probably hit the ball longer when he was younger, and practiced more when he was in college and in his 20s."

It’s my belief that Tiger stopped taking PEDs after Dr Galea was caught smuggling HGH into the U.S near the end of 2009 – Tiger was 33 at the time. Had he continued, I think he would have maintained the extraordinary consistency of performance attained during 2006-2009, the most productive period of his career and concurrent with the acceleration in his physical stature. From The Open championship in 2006 through the Tour Championship in 2009, Woods won 23 out of 45 PGA Tour events entered, finished inside the Top 10 in 38 of these, and also captured the unofficial season-ending Target World Challenge twice (in ’06 and ’07, missing ’08 and ’09 through injury and fallout from his “transgressions” respectively).

I was only 9 at the time of that famous win at Pebble Beach, so it’s not too surprising!

Note: Messed up the quote function, was trying to reply to 'nochct1' without also quoting all the people he had replied to!

And Richard, thank you for the welcome and for your insightful first-hand knowledge of the benefits of PEDs, that’s most interesting.

[golfer]

[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402532959' post='9476891']
[quote name='hazebronso' timestamp='1402521631' post='9475843']
So basically from what I've glimpsed in above article/post it would lead me to believe that Tigers incredible swing speed just suddenly came out of no where. Besides the well documented feats of Tiger Woods throughout his life including his measured swing speed of 120+ as an 18 year old amateur, I would be led to believe that like the baseball player with a career .220 avg that suddenly jumps to .320 while doubling his home run output that Tigers feats of greatness were not displayed well before 2005. Furthermore a change in physique by putting on 40 lbs of muscle over a 10 year span is hardly speculative of any PED use, ie Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant (25lbs in 2 years) and literally thousands of other high profile athletes.
[/quote]

Well, I never mentioned Tiger’s swing speed, or insinuated that PEDs might provide him with the ability to hit the ball further, so not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. Much of the concern around PEDs in golf is misplaced – the focus should be on physical advantages they promote such as the ability to practice for longer hours and still feel fresh at the business end of tournaments, as well as the state of mental bliss and absolute confidence that many users of testosterone and HGH report. Whether these hormones, for example, would help you hit the ball further, is debateable, and receives an inordinate amount of focus at the expense of more critical issues.

Also, there are several references in my post to the fact that Tiger was still pretty damn good before 2005, e.g.:

“His brilliance first came to my attention when he massacred the field in the 2000 US Open at Pebble Beach by an eye-watering fifteen strokes”

“So, am I saying that all of Tiger’s success was built on a foundation of lies? Not really. I don’t believe he was juicing earlier in his career, such as in 2000, which is rightly considered to be his finest year of Tour. With or without enhancements he would have been the greatest player in the world, just maybe not by quite such an astonishing distance.”

“Look at the absurd level of consistency from 2006-2009 and compare it to that of 2001-2002, two hugely impressive years but nowhere near as consistent.”

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402521937' post='9475863']
^ Good post Torrey

One question on this>

[b][color=#282828]"However, it is known that HGH can be administered in such a way as to make it extremely difficult to detect, hence why it is so popular and widespread throughout all of sport. Tiger had to retain his edge and athletic advantage over the rest of the field somehow, and it would make sense for this to be the one PED out of the three biggies to remain as part of the regime. Surely an HGH expert such as Dr Galea would be able to administer the hormone in such a way as to make it look natural?[/color]

[color=#282828]5. When Dr Galea was found guilty, that’s when the last of the cocktail of PEDs had to go. "[/color][/b]

[color=#282828]I believe that Galea made a deal with the Feds. Why didn't he say TW was on PEDs? In fact, seems like he went out of his way to say TW was not on PEDs. [/color]
[/quote]

Thank you, I appreciate it. That’s a good question, and probably the most difficult one to answer. My [i]guesses[/i] would be that either (a) he did just administer PRP upon visiting Tiger’s home in February and March 2009, but provided details of licensed practitioners in the US that could prescribe ‘other substances’, (b) not he, but rather one of his associates, such as Mark Lindsay or MaryAnne Catalano, provided Tiger with the PEDs, or, most unlikely by some distance © Tiger, quite possibly being a billionaire, paid Anthony Galea an extravagant sum for his treatment, on the grounds of unconditional confidentiality should anything find its way into the public domain regarding possible PED use.

[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1402524274' post='9476067']
You are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to express your opinion. You are entitled to "state my case".

Your "case" is filled with innuendo and conjecture but does not include an ounce of factual evidence that proves Tiger used "PEDs" or steroids.
[/quote]

[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402528263' post='9476443']
Actually...in a situation such as this, about the only factual evidence that could possibly surface is if Woods himself spilled the beans. Practically [b]anything[/b] short of that is as you say, "innuendo and conjecture".

[b]I suppose if Galea and crew came out and said he did, that would be damning. But I suspect that even that still wouldn't be enough proof for his ardent supporter[/b]s.
[/quote]

[b]Thanks Tim, that’s pretty much the gist of the reply I was going to give you, ‘golfer’.[/b]
[/quote]


The commentary from you and "Tim" is nothing more than biased conjecture.

By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]LMAO, Thank You!!

I've been askin(Saying) this for years, LMAO

That's why when Tiger was "playing" SEAL, well, that was amusing, good theater, LMAO

Oh wait, he ran on the beach in combat/work boots, LMAO

What an animal

Well Played!!

My Best,
Richard

Later Ed: 06/12/14, 3;32pm-> Make no mistake, I myself, consider Jack, Ben and he to be the three greatest of All-Time. He's a world class Player for the ages- RP II

[SilverBullets]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1402600904' post='9482061']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]LMAO, Thank You!!

I've been askin this for years, LMAO

Well Played!!

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

Guess it depends on if you view Golf as a game or as a sport. Either way, getting way to caught up on the term athlete.

[hogans71]

[quote name='SilverBullets' timestamp='1402601239' post='9482089']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1402600904' post='9482061']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402578022' post='9479373']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402541263' post='9477843']
I understand Torreys speculation.

But in the end the facts only point to this,

TW is a great athlete who got injured.
[/quote]

When I think of tw, the recurring theme is best/second best golfer of all time..

At no point would I consider him a great athlete- what exactly suggests that? Incredibly gifted golfer, certainly a high tolerance for pain, amazing hand/eye coordination, the ability to walk three odd miles of rolling terrain four days straight. All impressive in its own right but not quite worthy of a "great athlete" label...

Edit- and no, I don't believe for one moment he's used ped's...
[/quote]LMAO, Thank You!!

I've been askin this for years, LMAO

Well Played!!

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

Guess it depends on if you view Golf as a game or as a sport. Either way, getting way to caught up on the term athlete.
[/quote]

I don't disagree he's an athlete. My opinion is that he does not fall into the category of "great athlete" whatsoever. Not enough adjectives to describe how talented he is playing the game of golf. That does not make him a great athlete, however...

[TorreyPines]

"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.

[Ajlepisto]

Athletes don't use steroids to just bulk up. Lots of those that use them use them to recover from injury. Lots of them admit that they never took them until they got older or faced an injury. That's the biggest temptation...to try to maintain what you can achieve when you're young.

So...since it's pretty easy to beat testing standards, why hasn't he been able to recover from these injuries sooner? If he was juicing, he would be able to bounce back and heal quickly. Think NFL players who bounce back from ACL injuries in less than a year...

Also...just because he's going to a guy who was linked to PEDs doesn't necessarily mean that he was using them. If the guy is a specialist, there might be another reason. If might also mean that he WAS taking them, but it's not concrete evidence.

People are really quick to jump to conclusions, so I'm glad we don't have trials in the court of public opinion.

Sincerely,

Phil Mickelson

[golfer]

[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]


The reference to "proof" was directed to "Tim". .

If you honestly believe that [i]"glaring red flags"[/i] along with [i]"distinct possibility"[/i] or [i]"probability"[/i] equate to truth, then you are what I think you are, and what I think you are is completely void of anything remotely associated with endearment. Therefore, save your "pity" for yourself.


By the way, what's your case for offering [i]"glaring red flags"[/i], [i]"distinct possibility", [/i]or [i]"probability" [/i]that the "Tooth Fairy" and "Easter Bunny" actually exist?

[Redhill]

I sure hope that he stops taking them as the long term use of such drugs can and does lead to major prolems later in life.

[golfer]

[quote name='Redhill' timestamp='1402613216' post='9483317']
I sure hope that he stops taking them as the [b]long term use of such drugs can and does lead to major prolems later in life[/b].
[/quote]



As evident in your post.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]

What are the "glaring red flags"?

There was no gain in performance, as was the case with others. So, you have nothing there.

He gained the same amount of weight as millions do from early 20s-late 20s by working out.

Nothing there.

He hurt his leg and has had injuries.

As millions of athletes do.

Nothing.

Do you have one piece of actual evidence?

[golfs453]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402614237' post='9483399']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]

What are the "glaring red flags"?

There was no gain in performance, as was the case with others. So, you have nothing there.

He gained the same amount of weight as millions do from early 20s-late 20s by working out.

Nothing there.

He hurt his leg and has had injuries.

As millions of athletes do.

Nothing.

Do you have one piece of actual evidence?
[/quote]

Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.

[TorreyPines]

[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1402606878' post='9482709']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]


The reference to "proof" was directed to "Tim". .

If you honestly believe that [i]"glaring red flags"[/i] along with [i]"distinct possibility"[/i] or [i]"probability"[/i] equate to truth, then you are what I think you are, and what I think you are is completely void of anything remotely associated with endearment. Therefore, save your "pity" for yourself.


By the way, what's your case for offering [i]"glaring red flags"[/i], [i]"distinct possibility", [/i]or [i]"probability" [/i]that the "Tooth Fairy" and "Easter Bunny" actually exist?
[/quote]

Nope, I believe that “probability” equates to… probability (funnily enough!).

Nice attempt at a straw man argument by the way.

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402614237' post='9483399']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]

What are the "glaring red flags"?

There was no gain in performance, as was the case with others. So, you have nothing there.

He gained the same amount of weight as millions do from early 20s-late 20s by working out.

Nothing there.

He hurt his leg and has had injuries.

As millions of athletes do.

Nothing.

Do you have one piece of actual evidence?
[/quote]

There was a gain in performance. Let’s compare what are typically cited as Tiger’s four best consecutive years on tour (1999-2002) and an era in which I believe he was clean, with 2006-2009, which is [i]around[/i] the time I believe he was on a cocktail of performance enhancers:

[b][u]1999-2002[/u][/b]

Won 27 events out of 78 entered on the PGA Tour (34.615385%).

Finished in the top 10 in 55 of these 78 tournaments (70.512821%).

[b][u]2006-2009[/u][/b]

Won 25 events out of 54 entered on the PGA Tour (46.296296%).

Finished in the top 10 in 43 of these 54 tournaments (79.62963%).

A fairly significant difference, it must be said.

As for the weight gain, I have no qualms with the mass he added in his early to late 20s, which looked perfectly natural to me. However, the era I cite as an estimate for when he was receiving unethical advantages and bulking up at a much speedier rate is between 2005 and 2009, meaning his most impressive gains occurred after the age of 30, which is a tad suspicious.

Now let’s take a look at his injury record (bear in mind, it’s very late here and I’m listing these off the top of my head, so apologies if I miss any or get any details wrong):

December 1994 – Required knee surgery to remove scar tissue and two tumors from his left knee.

December 2002 – Surgery to remove fluid around his left ACL along with several cysts.

Summer 2007 – Ruptured his ACL whilst running, eventually required surgery after the 2008 Masters. Finds out shortly before the US Open that he also has two stress fractures in his left tibia, decides to play against doctor’s orders and is forced to miss the rest of the season.

[b]May 2010 – Forced to withdraw from the Players Championship due to a neck injury.[/b]

[b]December 2010 – Achilles injury.[/b]

[b]April 2011 – Achilles sprain, forced to miss his next tournament.[/b]

[b]May 2011 – Return of the Achilles injury, out for three months.[/b]

[b]March 2012 – Achilles, again.[/b]

[b]August 2012 – Stiff neck at the Barclays.[/b]

[b]May 2013 – Picks up an elbow injury during the weekend of the Players, continues to be a problem at the Memorial and the US Open.[/b]

[b]August 2013 – Stiff neck at The Barclays for the second year running, supposedly from sleeping on a too-soft hotel mattress. Has back spasms on the 13[sup]th[/sup] hole on Sunday, falling to the ground in pain.[/b]

[b]March 2014 – Back issues return, forced to have surgery. Already out of action for two and a half months, and not expected back for at least a month or so more.[/b]

All the injuries in bold are ones that have occurred post Dr Galea. Notice the sudden vast increase in ailments since the good doctor has no longer been available? If these injuries had started to pile up in say, 2013, then they could be dismissed as nothing more than the natural aging process taking its toll. However, his injuries started to mount up almost as soon as Galea was out of the picture (The Players 2010 was only his 3[sup]rd[/sup] event since Galea’s arrest, for crying out loud!) Also, Tiger’s injuries prior to 2010 were basically all confined to his knee; consistent problems with one or two particular joints is common for many people. But from 2010 onwards, it’s not just the knee anymore, but his whole body appears to be breaking down – neck, Achilles, elbow, back. Whatever next?

Anyway, it's almost 2am here and I'm exhausted. Off to bed but looking forward to more healthy debate tomorrow.

[golfheaven69]

Tiger's body is paying the price for his transgressions. It was worth it though like it has been for other high profile athletes who brought home fame and fortune doing the same thing.

Of course he will deny it until he is caught red handed. Kinda like his other issues. At that point if it comes golf will suffer.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402620190' post='9484069']
[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1402606878' post='9482709']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]


The reference to "proof" was directed to "Tim". .

If you honestly believe that [i]"glaring red flags"[/i] along with [i]"distinct possibility"[/i] or [i]"probability"[/i] equate to truth, then you are what I think you are, and what I think you are is completely void of anything remotely associated with endearment. Therefore, save your "pity" for yourself.


By the way, what's your case for offering [i]"glaring red flags"[/i], [i]"distinct possibility", [/i]or [i]"probability" [/i]that the "Tooth Fairy" and "Easter Bunny" actually exist?
[/quote]

Nope, I believe that “probability” equates to… probability (funnily enough!).

Nice attempt at a straw man argument by the way.

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402614237' post='9483399']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]

What are the "glaring red flags"?

There was no gain in performance, as was the case with others. So, you have nothing there.

He gained the same amount of weight as millions do from early 20s-late 20s by working out.

Nothing there.

He hurt his leg and has had injuries.

As millions of athletes do.

Nothing.

Do you have one piece of actual evidence?
[/quote]

There was a gain in performance. Let’s compare what are typically cited as Tiger’s four best consecutive years on tour (1999-2002) and an era in which I believe he was clean, with 2006-2009, which is [i]around[/i] the time I believe he was on a cocktail of performance enhancers:

[b][u]1999-2002[/u][/b]

Won 27 events out of 78 entered on the PGA Tour (34.615385%).

Finished in the top 10 in 55 of these 78 tournaments (70.512821%).

[b][u]2006-2009[/u][/b]

Won 25 events out of 54 entered on the PGA Tour (46.296296%).

Finished in the top 10 in 43 of these 54 tournaments (79.62963%).

A fairly significant difference, it must be said.

As for the weight gain, I have no qualms with the mass he added in his early to late 20s, which looked perfectly natural to me. However, the era I cite as an estimate for when he was receiving unethical advantages and bulking up at a much speedier rate is between 2005 and 2009, meaning his most impressive gains occurred after the age of 30, which is a tad suspicious.

Now let’s take a look at his injury record (bear in mind, it’s very late here and I’m listing these off the top of my head, so apologies if I miss any or get any details wrong):

December 1994 – Required knee surgery to remove scar tissue and two tumors from his left knee.

December 2002 – Surgery to remove fluid around his left ACL along with several cysts.

Summer 2007 – Ruptured his ACL whilst running, eventually required surgery after the 2008 Masters. Finds out shortly before the US Open that he also has two stress fractures in his left tibia, decides to play against doctor’s orders and is forced to miss the rest of the season.

[b]May 2010 – Forced to withdraw from the Players Championship due to a neck injury.[/b]

[b]December 2010 – Achilles injury.[/b]

[b]April 2011 – Achilles sprain, forced to miss his next tournament.[/b]

[b]May 2011 – Return of the Achilles injury, out for three months.[/b]

[b]March 2012 – Achilles, again.[/b]

[b]August 2012 – Stiff neck at the Barclays.[/b]

[b]May 2013 – Picks up an elbow injury during the weekend of the Players, continues to be a problem at the Memorial and the US Open.[/b]

[b]August 2013 – Stiff neck at The Barclays for the second year running, supposedly from sleeping on a too-soft hotel mattress. Has back spasms on the 13[sup]th[/sup] hole on Sunday, falling to the ground in pain.[/b]

[b]March 2014 – Back issues return, forced to have surgery. Already out of action for two and a half months, and not expected back for at least a month or so more.[/b]

All the injuries in bold are ones that have occurred post Dr Galea. Notice the sudden vast increase in ailments since the good doctor has no longer been available? If these injuries had started to pile up in say, 2013, then they could be dismissed as nothing more than the natural aging process taking its toll. However, his injuries started to mount up almost as soon as Galea was out of the picture (The Players 2010 was only his 3[sup]rd[/sup] event since Galea’s arrest, for crying out loud!) Also, Tiger’s injuries prior to 2010 were basically all confined to his knee; consistent problems with one or two particular joints is common for many people. But from 2010 onwards, it’s not just the knee anymore, but his whole body appears to be breaking down – neck, Achilles, elbow, back. Whatever next?

Anyway, it's almost 2am here and I'm exhausted. Off to bed but looking forward to more healthy debate tomorrow.
[/quote]

Suffice it to say.

TW was #1 and the dominant player for both periods you mention. No increase in swing speed or athletic key indicators, he just got better at his craft.

Injuries is sports happen and compound. Always been the case.

[Tim Meitner]

[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']

Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.

[golfer]

[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402620190' post='9484069']
[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1402606878' post='9482709']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]


The reference to "proof" was directed to "Tim". .

If you honestly believe that [i]"glaring red flags"[/i] along with [i]"distinct possibility"[/i] or [i]"probability"[/i] equate to truth, then you are what I think you are, and what I think you are is completely void of anything remotely associated with endearment. Therefore, save your "pity" for yourself.


By the way, what's your case for offering [i]"glaring red flags"[/i], [i]"distinct possibility", [/i]or [i]"probability" [/i]that the "Tooth Fairy" and "Easter Bunny" actually exist?
[/quote]

Nope, I believe that “probability” equates to… probability (funnily enough!).

Nice attempt at a straw man argument by the way.

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1402614237' post='9483399']
[quote name='TorreyPines' timestamp='1402604049' post='9482429']
"By the way, "proof" is not defined as someone making an accusation."

I never mentioned anything about "proof", but if you honestly don't believe there are enough glaring red flags to suggest Tiger having dabbled with PEDs during the past as a very distinct possibility (probability actually) then I pity your naiveity, though it is quite endearing.
[/quote]

What are the "glaring red flags"?

There was no gain in performance, as was the case with others. So, you have nothing there.

He gained the same amount of weight as millions do from early 20s-late 20s by working out.

Nothing there.

He hurt his leg and has had injuries.

As millions of athletes do.

Nothing.

[b][color=#ff0000]Do you have one piece of actual evidence?[/color][/b]
[/quote]

There was a gain in performance. Let’s compare what are typically cited as Tiger’s four best consecutive years on tour (1999-2002) and an era in which I believe he was clean, with 2006-2009, which is [i]around[/i] the time I believe he was on a cocktail of performance enhancers:

[b][u]1999-2002[/u][/b]

Won 27 events out of 78 entered on the PGA Tour (34.615385%).

Finished in the top 10 in 55 of these 78 tournaments (70.512821%).

[b][u]2006-2009[/u][/b]

Won 25 events out of 54 entered on the PGA Tour (46.296296%).

Finished in the top 10 in 43 of these 54 tournaments (79.62963%).

A fairly significant difference, it must be said.

As for the weight gain, I have no qualms with the mass he added in his early to late 20s, which looked perfectly natural to me. However, the era I cite as an estimate for when he was receiving unethical advantages and bulking up at a much speedier rate is between 2005 and 2009, meaning his most impressive gains occurred after the age of 30, which is a tad suspicious.

Now let’s take a look at his injury record (bear in mind, it’s very late here and I’m listing these off the top of my head, so apologies if I miss any or get any details wrong):

December 1994 – Required knee surgery to remove scar tissue and two tumors from his left knee.

December 2002 – Surgery to remove fluid around his left ACL along with several cysts.

Summer 2007 – Ruptured his ACL whilst running, eventually required surgery after the 2008 Masters. Finds out shortly before the US Open that he also has two stress fractures in his left tibia, decides to play against doctor’s orders and is forced to miss the rest of the season.

[b]May 2010 – Forced to withdraw from the Players Championship due to a neck injury.[/b]

[b]December 2010 – Achilles injury.[/b]

[b]April 2011 – Achilles sprain, forced to miss his next tournament.[/b]

[b]May 2011 – Return of the Achilles injury, out for three months.[/b]

[b]March 2012 – Achilles, again.[/b]

[b]August 2012 – Stiff neck at the Barclays.[/b]

[b]May 2013 – Picks up an elbow injury during the weekend of the Players, continues to be a problem at the Memorial and the US Open.[/b]

[b]August 2013 – Stiff neck at The Barclays for the second year running, supposedly from sleeping on a too-soft hotel mattress. Has back spasms on the 13[sup]th[/sup] hole on Sunday, falling to the ground in pain.[/b]

[b]March 2014 – Back issues return, forced to have surgery. Already out of action for two and a half months, and not expected back for at least a month or so more.[/b]

All the injuries in bold are ones that have occurred post Dr Galea. Notice the sudden vast increase in ailments since the good doctor has no longer been available? If these injuries had started to pile up in say, 2013, then they could be dismissed as nothing more than the natural aging process taking its toll. However, his injuries started to mount up almost as soon as Galea was out of the picture (The Players 2010 was only his 3[sup]rd[/sup] event since Galea’s arrest, for crying out loud!) Also, Tiger’s injuries prior to 2010 were basically all confined to his knee; consistent problems with one or two particular joints is common for many people. But from 2010 onwards, it’s not just the knee anymore, but his whole body appears to be breaking down – neck, Achilles, elbow, back. Whatever next?

Anyway, it's almost 2am here and I'm exhausted. Off to bed but looking forward to more healthy debate tomorrow.
[/quote]


Maybe this will help you understand the question pertaining to "evidence":


[b]ev·i·dence[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3][i]noun[/i][/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3][background=rgb(232, 236, 245)] [/background][/size][/color][color=#717274][size=3]\ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]: [b]something which shows that something else exists or [color=#ff0000]is true[/color][/b]
: a visible sign of something
: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

[b] [/b][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=3][b]spec·u·la·tion[/b]

[i]noun[/i][background=rgb(232, 236, 245)] [/background][color=#717274][size=3]\ˌspe-kyə-ˈlā-shən\[/size][/color]

: [b]ideas or guesses about something that is not known[/b]

[b] [/b][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=3][b]cir·cum·stan·tial[/b]

[i]adjective[/i][background=rgb(232, 236, 245)] [/background][color=#717274][size=3]\ˌsər-k[sup]ə[/sup]m-ˈstan(t)-shəl\[/size][/color]

[i]law[/i] : [b]based on information which suggests that something is true but does not prove that it is true[/b]
: [u]providing or including the details of a particular situation or event[/u]

[b] [/b][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=3][b]con·jec·ture[/b]

[i]noun[/i][background=rgb(232, 236, 245)] [/background][color=#717274][size=3]\kən-ˈjek-chər\[/size][/color]

: [b]an opinion or idea formed without proof or sufficient evidence[/b]


[b] [/b][/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3][b]li·bel[/b]

[i]noun[/i][background=rgb(232, 236, 245)] [/background][color=#717274][size=3]\ˈlī-bəl\[/size][/color]

: [b]the act of publishing a false statement that causes people to have a bad opinion of someone[/b][/size][/color]

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402622961' post='9484453']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']

Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.
[/quote]

Why do you think he is clean?

Hard question considering the fact that his character is questionable in other areas.

Compartmentalization.

One can, per the records of many high performers across sports, politics, business, act on the highest levels of ethics in their profession/passion. Yet act in an improper way in other areas of their life.

[golfs453]

[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402622961' post='9484453']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']
Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.
[/quote]

It's a difference between someone's speculation versus the people directly related to the story saying Tiger did not take PEDs.

[hogans71]

[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402624039' post='9484577']
[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402622961' post='9484453']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']
Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.
[/quote]

It's a difference between someone's speculation versus the people directly related to the story saying Tiger did not take PEDs.
[/quote]


Who exactly are those people?

And again for the record, I don't believe he actually did partake...

[Lennon Mccartney]

Great point Dave

[golfs453]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402624233' post='9484591']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402624039' post='9484577']
[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402622961' post='9484453']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']
Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.
[/quote]

It's a difference between someone's speculation versus the people directly related to the story saying Tiger did not take PEDs.
[/quote]


Who exactly are those people?

And again for the record, I don't believe he actually did partake...
[/quote]


[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6760484/tiger-woods-use-peds-patient-says-lawyer-anthony-galea-assistant"]http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6760484/tiger-woods-use-peds-patient-says-lawyer-anthony-galea-assistant[/url]

[url="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/sports/os-mike-bianchi-hank-haney-0403-20120402_1_galea-hank-haney-tiger-woods"]http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/sports/os-mike-bianchi-hank-haney-0403-20120402_1_galea-hank-haney-tiger-woods[/url]

[Tim Meitner]

[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402625241' post='9484685']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1402624233' post='9484591']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402624039' post='9484577']
[quote name='Tim Meitner' timestamp='1402622961' post='9484453']
[quote name='golfs453' timestamp='1402615254' post='9483497']
Not to mention people actually saying Woods did not use PEDs.
[/quote]


But according to "golfer", just as someone's say-so isn't proof of guilt, the same should apply with those that are adamant about innocence. Unless this is only a one-way street we're talking about here.

I happen to believe that he's been clean.

But, considering he has been found to have committed numerous acts of adultery, it wouldn't be all that much of a reach for some to call his moral compass into question, and as a result suspect that he could have cheated in other ways.
[/quote]

It's a difference between someone's speculation versus the people directly related to the story saying Tiger did not take PEDs.
[/quote]


Who exactly are those people?

And again for the record, I don't believe he actually did partake...
[/quote]


[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6760484/tiger-woods-use-peds-patient-says-lawyer-anthony-galea-assistant"]http://espn.go.com/g...galea-assistant[/url]

[url="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/sports/os-mike-bianchi-hank-haney-0403-20120402_1_galea-hank-haney-tiger-woods"]http://articles.orla...ney-tiger-woods[/url]
[/quote]

So the [b]lawyer[/b] for the [b]assistant[/b] for the [b]doctor[/b] who treated [b]Woods [/b]sounds ironclad to you? Or is it a case of them telling us what we want to hear?

Haney said he [b]believes[/b] Tiger didn't take PED's.....hardly a "he did NOT" take PED's.