Jim Venetos golf swing?

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411133558' post='10146579']
It's not two different swings unless you exaggerate it. If you change ball position then your position on the arc naturally changes. His method with driver seems like it would have the problems people have with S&T that don't understand the system, except even more exaggerated.

Driver off the deck isn't useful unless you're in the first cut or playing at a course with long fairways. It's not physically possible to hit the ball anywhere near the COG for modern drivers off the deck unless the ball is sitting way up or you hit down so much that you hit the ball straight into the ground. 99 percent of people hit their 3 wood off the deck just as far or farther than driver off the deck and about 2x as consistent.
[/quote]

IMO, most amateurs should not even be thinking about hitting driver off the deck when they can't even hit a 3-wood consistently off the deck.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

I see his method much like I do SnT, it's designed to promote draw/hook swings for the chronic slicers and those who can't control where they get the club on the ball. It's intended for the novice golfer, not guys like you Tembo who want to fade it. I wouldn't promote that swing but I find the guy entertaining none the less.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1411146068' post='10148051']
I see his method much like I do SnT, it's designed to promote draw/hook swings for the chronic slicers and those who can't control where they get the club on the ball. It's intended for the novice golfer, not guys like you Tembo who want to fade it. I wouldn't promote that swing but I find the guy entertaining none the less.
[/quote]

He's definitely entertaining!

[ALIF]

I love the fade. This swing is not for me. It's a hooker's delight. Hooker's will have a ball with this swing! Lol. Anyone for salami and crackers?

[garyt]

So I tried out this swing today for the second time. 70/130 course. I shot a nice even 40 on the front with 18 putts! If I could've made anything, would've been sub 40. 5 of 7 fairways and 4 of 9 greens.
Kind of struggled on the back,got tired,just couldn't get any feel for the swing. Putting was way better,though. I was surprised when I added it up that I shot another 40 on the nose.Only 14 putts this time,which saved me,only hit a very few good shots on the back,which I attribute more to fatigue than the swing. Only 3-9 fw's and 3 gir on the back.
So an even 80, 8-14 fw's, 7 gir, and 32 putts.
I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy. I need to rewatch some videos to see if I pick something else up I've missed.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='garyt' timestamp='1411165001' post='10149839']
So I tried out this swing today for the second time. 70/130 course. I shot a nice even 40 on the front with 18 putts! If I could've made anything, would've been sub 40. 5 of 7 fairways and 4 of 9 greens.
Kind of struggled on the back,got tired,just couldn't get any feel for the swing. Putting was way better,though. I was surprised when I added it up that I shot another 40 on the nose.Only 14 putts this time,which saved me,only hit a very few good shots on the back,which I attribute more to fatigue than the swing. Only 3-9 fw's and 3 gir on the back.
So an even 80, 8-14 fw's, 7 gir, and 32 putts.
I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy. I need to rewatch some videos to see if I pick something else up I've missed.
[/quote]

I can't believe JV's thread lived. His swing in crap

[northgolf]

[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1411172072' post='10150399']
[quote name='garyt' timestamp='1411165001' post='10149839']
So I tried out this swing today for the second time. 70/130 course. I shot a nice even 40 on the front with 18 putts! If I could've made anything, would've been sub 40. 5 of 7 fairways and 4 of 9 greens.
Kind of struggled on the back,got tired,just couldn't get any feel for the swing. Putting was way better,though. I was surprised when I added it up that I shot another 40 on the nose.Only 14 putts this time,which saved me,only hit a very few good shots on the back,which I attribute more to fatigue than the swing. Only 3-9 fw's and 3 gir on the back.
So an even 80, 8-14 fw's, 7 gir, and 32 putts.
I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy. I need to rewatch some videos to see if I pick something else up I've missed.
[/quote]

I can't believe JV's thread lived. His swing in crap
[/quote]

I've devoted a large number of posts in this thread to illuminating that position.

[no where to look]

[quote name='garyt' timestamp='1411165001' post='10149839']
So I tried out this swing today for the second time. 70/130 course. I shot a nice even 40 on the front with 18 putts! If I could've made anything, would've been sub 40. 5 of 7 fairways and 4 of 9 greens.
Kind of struggled on the back,got tired,just couldn't get any feel for the swing. Putting was way better,though. I was surprised when I added it up that I shot another 40 on the nose.Only 14 putts this time,which saved me,only hit a very few good shots on the back,which I attribute more to fatigue than the swing. Only 3-9 fw's and 3 gir on the back.
So an even 80, 8-14 fw's, 7 gir, and 32 putts.
I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy. I need to rewatch some videos to see if I pick something else up I've missed.
[/quote]


garyt,
are you hitting fades too?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afk7nLcLQU4#t=86"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afk7nLcLQU4#t=86[/url]

Ben Hogan could hit fades from a closed stance. Moved the ball back and kept face open to the path.

[oikos1]

[i] I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy.[/i]

And there is JV's target audience. It's an 80's shooter swing that gets you around the course respectably. Nothing wrong with that. That power stuff is fluff to make his student's feel better, but I'm sure he has many happy clients...

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='oikos1' timestamp='1411231122' post='10153047']
[i] I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy.[/i]

And there is JV's target audience. It's an 80's shooter swing that gets you around the course respectably. Nothing wrong with that. That power stuff is fluff to make his student's feel better, but I'm sure he has many happy clients...
[/quote]
Totally agree with you. People need to learn who these methods are targeted at. Better players need a little more perspective. If you're at or near scratch and take this at face value for what it is, then there's no need to bash. Let people decide for themselves what they need to do to stop hitting for 40 yard bananas.

[MMB1500]

I have read this thread with interest.

I have some genuine questions about this swing borne out of curiosity (though not a desire to try it myself).

1) Where does the 'consistent power' come from in the swing? I understand JV's argument about hitting consistent distances, which is how he seems to define power (something which is really not as hard to understand as others have made out). What I fail to see is what the source of that power is. I have watched the original video several times and the swing appears to be nothing more that an arm lift and swipe with roll-over release. I can't see any torso rotation, use of ground forces or, as has been discussed, lateral weight shift.

2) Given the 'armsy' nature of the swing is the release in this method not highly timing dependent?

3) Exactly how does this set-up promote a shallow swing? From what I can see, everything about it promotes the exact opposite i.e. a steep OTT move. I'd be surprised if most people who tried this didn't end up taking crater-type divots several feet deep.

This isn't a personal attack on JV and I'm not saying this method couldn't work for the right person. However I would genuinely like to know the answer to these questions. No one of any merit in the history of golf has played like this, so if someone is going to posit a 'new and improved' methodology, I would like to see some detailed reasoning behind it.

[no where to look]

[attachment=2426839:Ben_Hogan impact lateral move.jpg][attachment=2426841:hogan leadbetter.JPG]No one of any merit in the history of golf has played like this, so if someone is going to posit a 'new and improved' methodology, I would like to see some detailed reasoning behind it.



[center]Its not new.[/center]
Ben Hogan for one, had a severe inside to outside swing path. His go to shot was the draw(starts right of target and ‘draws’ back to the target). He also hit a fade(started left of target and ‘faded’ back to the target, from same closed stance.


Moe Norman preset a closed position, with his feet and torso and ball position.

Ben Hogan’s impact position was remarkably similar to JV’s. Both are ahead of the ball prior to impact.
Neither is behind the ball. Behind the ball is for those who think power is from weight transfer.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411249531' post='10154041']
[attachment=2426839:Ben_Hogan impact lateral move.jpg][attachment=2426841:hogan leadbetter.JPG]No one of any merit in the history of golf has played like this, so if someone is going to posit a 'new and improved' methodology, I would like to see some detailed reasoning behind it.



[center]Its not new.[/center]
Ben Hogan for one, had a severe inside to outside swing path. His go to shot was the draw(starts right of target and ‘draws’ back to the target). He also hit a fade(started left of target and ‘faded’ back to the target, from same closed stance.


Moe Norman preset a closed position, with his feet and torso and ball position.

Ben Hogan’s impact position was remarkably similar to JV’s. Both are ahead of the ball prior to impact.
Neither is behind the ball. Behind the ball is for those who think power is from weight transfer.
[/quote]

Who is ever behind the ball at impact....? No one except the people with no shaft lean and maybe people hitting up a good bit on driver. You can't really do that with an iron off the deck and have it be successful. You're attacking a concept that no one does. The reason a lateral shift is more effective for power is that it physically allows you to use more musculature and gives more time for that musculature to speed up the club. Is staying centered good for contact? Yeah. Can you get large amounts of speed from a centered swing? Yeah. Can you get the amount of speed needed to compete in LD with a centered swing? Not really. The guys that rip it with centerish swings, they all will get a little shift once they start trying to rip it. It's just a natural athletic motion. What do you do when you line up for a haymaker? Different body motions than a jab or hook.

[garyt]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411221266' post='10152495']
[quote name='garyt' timestamp='1411165001' post='10149839']
So I tried out this swing today for the second time. 70/130 course. I shot a nice even 40 on the front with 18 putts! If I could've made anything, would've been sub 40. 5 of 7 fairways and 4 of 9 greens.
Kind of struggled on the back,got tired,just couldn't get any feel for the swing. Putting was way better,though. I was surprised when I added it up that I shot another 40 on the nose.Only 14 putts this time,which saved me,only hit a very few good shots on the back,which I attribute more to fatigue than the swing. Only 3-9 fw's and 3 gir on the back.
So an even 80, 8-14 fw's, 7 gir, and 32 putts.
I still think this swing has a shot to be the one I stick with. I'm never going to be a great golfer,but if I can find a limited maintenance swing to keep me in the 8 hdcp range,I'm happy. I need to rewatch some videos to see if I pick something else up I've missed.
[/quote]


garyt,
are you hitting fades too?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afk7nLcLQU4#t=86"]http://www.youtube.c...fk7nLcLQU4#t=86[/url]

Ben Hogan could hit fades from a closed stance. Moved the ball back and kept face open to the path.
[/quote]

Haven't tried it. I'm just concentrating on hitting it straight. I don't really get the draw he says you'll get,it just falls off to the left,mostly.

[no where to look]

No one except the people with no shaft lean and maybe people hitting up a good bit on driver.



So which pga players don't hit up a good bit on driver?
Their all behind the ball. Check their trail hip relative to the back of the ball.

I bet you wont find one current pga player today with trail hip ahead of the ball at impact....$$

If your not ahead of the ball at impact, your behind it.

Moe Norman bragged he came to impact with true loft of the club. Ben Hogan did the same.
Hands ahead of the back of the ball, but no excess shaft lean; due to being ahead of the ball, like JV.

I am not recommending JV's method.
Just saying he makes some valid points.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411256155' post='10154423']
No one except the people with no shaft lean and maybe people hitting up a good bit on driver.



So which pga players don't hit up a good bit on driver?
Their all behind the ball. Check their trail hip relative to the back of the ball.

I bet you wont find one current pga player today with trail hip ahead of the ball at impact....$$
[/quote]

? The average is still like -1 AoA so......

[no where to look]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411256397' post='10154453']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411256155' post='10154423']
No one except the people with no shaft lean and maybe people hitting up a good bit on driver.



So which pga players don't hit up a good bit on driver?
Their all behind the ball. Check their trail hip relative to the back of the ball.

I bet you wont find one current pga player today with trail hip ahead of the ball at impact....$$
[/quote]

? The average is still like -1 AoA so......
[/quote]

so where is trail hip relative to the back of the ball at impact.....

[bph7]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1411146068' post='10148051']
I see his method much like I do SnT, it's designed to promote draw/hook swings for the chronic slicers and those who can't control where they get the club on the ball. It's intended for the novice golfer, not guys like you Tembo who want to fade it. I wouldn't promote that swing but I find the guy entertaining none the less.
[/quote]

I agree with this, but that's why it's all the more surprising the Jim and all his cronies got so upset when I said it was a good swing for OTT hackers/slicers. I mean all swings can't be all things to all people, and the fact that Jim doesn't seem to understand his target demographic makes me question his entire body of knowledge.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411257329' post='10154521']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411256397' post='10154453']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411256155' post='10154423']
No one except the people with no shaft lean and maybe people hitting up a good bit on driver.



So which pga players don't hit up a good bit on driver?
Their all behind the ball. Check their trail hip relative to the back of the ball.

I bet you wont find one current pga player today with trail hip ahead of the ball at impact....$$
[/quote]

? The average is still like -1 AoA so......
[/quote]

so where is trail hip relative to the back of the ball at impact.....
[/quote]
In front of it, unless they have no shaft lean or are hitting up on driver. It's funny because you don't realize that the specific piece your looking at is indicative of a pressure shift. The more you get your hips in front of the ball, the more you shifted pressure to get there. Really easy to see, stand up keep the pressure in your feet the exact same and try to get to that position. it won't happen unless you do it at 2 mph. no matter how many times this is drilled people don't get it. a lack of a lateral shift is not indicative of a lack of pressure shift.

Hogan lifted his left foot when he swung. That alone is complete proof against what you're saying.

[no where to look]

Bubba and Jack got ahead of the ball as Ben Hogan did and JV
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEFLbehtP5k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEFLbehtP5k[/url]

Jack Nicklaus:
But a lot of people have misinterpreted Jack's swing, believing he drove his legs to power the ball. I asked Jack how much his first teacher, Jack Grout, worked with him on leg action. He said zero. They focused on his feet. So think footwork, not leg drive.

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-09/flick-nicklaus-transition"]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-09/flick-nicklaus-transition[/url]




JV’s point is, Source of power in the golf swing is not weight shift.

You’ve turned that into
Left heel lifting, AofA, and whatever.

Clearly ADD.

[MMB1500]

Can you clarify what you mean by 'ahead of the ball'?

[no where to look]

[quote name='Eagle006' timestamp='1411305801' post='10156637']
Can you clarify what you mean by 'ahead of the ball'?
[/quote]

ahead of the ball....torso and our head on target side of back of the ball at impact,
as illustrated by Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus.

[MMB1500]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411307767' post='10156759']
[quote name='Eagle006' timestamp='1411305801' post='10156637']
Can you clarify what you mean by 'ahead of the ball'?
[/quote]

ahead of the ball....torso and our head on target side of back of the ball at impact,
as illustrated by Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus.
[/quote]

Sorry, still not entirely clear what you mean. Do you mean head closer to the target at impact than the ball? That's a fast way to a steep OTT hook as far as I can tell.

The best ball strikers demonstrated spine tilt [i]away[/i] from the target at impact i.e. the opposite of what you appear to be saying. I think that's a pretty well established fact.

[attachment=2427329:Spine Tilt.JPG]

[attachment=2427331:Hogan Life Image 3.jpg]

[no where to look]

[size=2][color=#222222]Pinhigh27 wrote: Who is ever behind the ball at impact....?[/color]

[color=#222222]You seem to be saying .....everyone[/color]



[color=#222222]With exception of Ben Hogan, I'm with you. Just about everyone is behind the ball at impact.[/color]

[color=#222222]Funny Ben Hogan eliminated pull and pull/hook from his game. Has Rory? et al?[/color]



[color=#222222]If you establish the spine, as an axis of rotation pointing at the lead heel, as JV does, with closed stance there is no tilting.[/color]
[color=#222222]A straight spine is established at address, angled/ pointing to the left heel..[/color]

[color=#000000](with a spine axis perpendicular to the ground, and no closed positioning of feet /torso, [/color]
[color=#000000]yes torso and our head ahead of the ball at impact will be steep/ott )[/color]


[color=#222222]What Moe Norman and Ben Hogan did was similar at address, but they let their torso move, from ground up so they rotated around that axis which was pointing to the lead heel.[/color]



[color=#222222]If your torso and head are behind the ball at impact you have to add tilt/bending... an unnecessary complication/sress on spine.[/color]





[color=#222222]there are many 'well established facts' accepted about the golf swing that are wrong. IMO[/color]

[color=#222222]pick your poison.[/color][/size]

[oikos1]

[i]Jack Nicklaus:
But a lot of people have misinterpreted Jack's swing, believing he drove his legs to power the ball. I asked Jack how much his first teacher, Jack Grout, worked with him on leg action. He said zero. They focused on his feet. So think footwork, not leg drive.[/i]

Interesting. Here's what he said in "Golf My way":

"Thus I belong very definitely to the "legs and body" school of golfing thought rather than to the "hands and arms" club. Possibly, if I were differently endowed physically I'd play differently. As it is, [b][u]to me the legs and body are the engine of the golf swing; they fuel and drive it[/u][/b]."

"But a warning: This is [i]my[/i] way. It does not disqualify the fact that some excellent golf has been played with the accent on hands and arms--viz. by Arnold Palmer."

[eightiron]

I have not seen a swing where Hogan has his head target side of the ball at impact . NWTL can you provide a swing showing this scenario?

[MMB1500]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411311416' post='10156985']
[size=2][color=#222222]Pinhigh27 wrote: Who is ever behind the ball at impact....?[/color]

[color=#222222]You seem to be saying .....everyone[/color]



[color=#222222]With exception of Ben Hogan, I'm with you. Just about everyone is behind the ball at impact.[/color]

[color=#222222]Funny Ben Hogan eliminated pull and pull/hook from his game. Has Rory? et al?[/color]



[color=#222222]If you establish the spine, as an axis of rotation pointing at the lead heel, as JV does, with closed stance there is no tilting.[/color]
[color=#222222]A straight spine is established at address, angled/ pointing to the left heel..[/color]

[color=#000000](with a spine axis perpendicular to the ground, and no closed positioning of feet /torso, [/color]
[color=#000000]yes torso and our head ahead of the ball at impact will be steep/ott )[/color]


[color=#222222]What Moe Norman and Ben Hogan did was similar at address, but they let their torso move, from ground up so they rotated around that axis which was pointing to the lead heel.[/color]


[color=#222222]If your torso and head are behind the ball at impact you have to add tilt/bending... an unnecessary complication/sress on spine.[/color]



[color=#222222]there are many 'well established facts' accepted about the golf swing that are wrong. IMO[/color]

[color=#222222]pick your poison.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is 'wrong' that the best ball strikers did not have secondary spine tilt i.e. tilt away from the target?

Show me one single photo of Hogan, Nicklaus or indeed any other great ball striker who had their head and torso ahead of the ball (and thus nearer the target) at impact.

A straight spine, perpendicular to the ground (when viewed from in front) will more than likely result in a steep AoA, chunks and/or hooks. I'd say 'poison' is the right word for idea that this is a desirable position to try and achieve.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411305366' post='10156613']
Bubba and Jack got ahead of the ball as Ben Hogan did and JV
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEFLbehtP5k[/media]

Jack Nicklaus:
But a lot of people have misinterpreted Jack's swing, believing he drove his legs to power the ball. I asked Jack how much his first teacher, Jack Grout, worked with him on leg action. He said zero. They focused on his feet. So think footwork, not leg drive.

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-09/flick-nicklaus-transition"]http://www.golfdiges...laus-transition[/url]




JV’s point is, Source of power in the golf swing is not weight shift.

You’ve turned that into
Left heel lifting, AofA, and whatever.

Clearly ADD.
[/quote]

What do you think his feet are doing.... Applying the musculature of the legs and thus causing pressure shift.... It's not like the feet have giant muscles in them that can produce tons of force on their own... Both jack and bubba almost completely lift their front foot when they swing. Unless they are wearing a jetpack, they are shifting pressure. A LOT

[pinhigh27]

It's funny too how I hear stuff like " Hogan eliminated the hook and pull from his game." Alright so if he was so precise and such an amazing striker, why didn't he win every tournament he played in? I get that the dude was good, but some of the crap you guys say is just moronic.

[no where to look]

Hogan eliminated the hook and pull from his game."[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411319433' post='10157485']
It's funny too how I hear stuff like " Hogan eliminated the hook and pull from his game." Alright so if he was so precise and such an amazing striker, why didn't he win every tournament he played in? I get that the dude was good, but some of the crap you guys say is just moronic.
[/quote]

Hogan eliminated the hook and pull from his game."

If your going to quote moronic, quote accurately:

"eliminated pull and pull/hook" there is a big difference; but you wont know that.