Loss of Competitive Golfers @ Country Club

[dmblanch]

Our men's league is the same, so the attrition isn't limited to CC's. Used to have 75-100, now down to less than 30. The course no longer blocks out a nine for the afternoon of league night, they simply reserve three foursomes, maybe squeeze a fourth in if extras show up.

If you track down the guys who used to play, it's not that they have died or gone to other clubs. They just don't play, they do other things.

[helper_monkey]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410350409' post='10094365']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410348887' post='10094293']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410347049' post='10094239']Just my opinion, but 2 things have changed.

There's too much sandbagging going on in the handicap flights, so most "competitive" guys won't bother.

In the championship flights, it used to be that clubs had 20-30 guys with mid-single digit handicaps, anyone of whom could win. These days, there always seems to be 4 or 5 High School or College players who can shoot under par & and 4 or 5 more guys around Scratch of better. Not many 5 indexes have a chance against that competition.

I've belonged to 6 or 7 clubs through the years and up until 10 years ago or so, a pair of 76's would most likely win the Club Championships. These days? Someone's going to come in a couple over Par, at worst.

The dynamic of Club Membership as it applies to "players" has changed dramatically over the last 15 or so years. Now you have the typical 45-60 year olds who have been playing golf for 25+ years and may carry a mid-single digit ... then you have the "kids" of those members, who are going to clean everyone's clock by throwing up a 69/73.[/quote]

Are you at my club in NY? Lol


[/quote]

Nope, but all the Northeast clubs seem to be facing the same dynamics

i have no clue about the rest of the country, although I know Florida is similar.
[/quote]

We have the same issue with the Championship flight at my club in Alabama. A 4 or 5 handicap has almost no chance to win. The last three years the final score had been under par for the 3 rounds of the Championship flight. We don't really have a problem with sandbagging in the lower flights, though (or at least not in the first or second flight).

[Golfcat]

Some great thoughts.

Lets think about the personality style that it takes to be competitive. Planner....grinder...critical thinker.

As I think about it, many of these guys have left our club. They have been replaced with beer drinking bankers that only want to have fun. No way these ego gasbags would want a number put up on the board for the world to see.

Times are changing...

PR

[hayzooos]

[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1410356981' post='10094815']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1410356238' post='10094749']
On the flip side - what IS better/more fun are the member/guest tournaments. Those are over-subscribed and very popular and still somewhat competitive particularly if you're in the mix. But it still has sandbagging in it - just not as extreme.
[/quote]
I'd love to do my club's member/guest tournament and bring my father in law as my guest. But he's 70 years old, shoots low 100's most days, and doesn't carry an official GHIN. He tracks his scores via a scoring app, and it has him at a 28 index. But they would never give him a fair handicap because the app isn't "official".

So I don't bother to enter because we'd just get mauled. I might as well just bring him out there for a normal round of golf.
[/quote]

Which scoring app? I've used myscorecard.com and I can get a legit USGA cap through there so long as you're part of the right 'group'.

I used it in my father-in-law's member/guest (single day) just a month or so ago. Net best ball, like others are saying. Had a blast, took some money for 3rd place (won in a playoff). I played like garbage, pops-in-law played a solid round. I think we finished -9 (winner was -11) and didn't have any bogies on the card, which always helps.

[Petethreeput]

I think Brian hit it on the head. As the golf population ages they are stuck in a tough position. I always tell people, "The older I get, the better I was." Rarely does my statement bear out in numbers though.

Technology has made everyone longer, but the young guys that are consistently going at par 5s in two with an iron when I am D/3W/Wedge are going to score better more consistently. I know I am not going to win the thing, but I do like to compete against myself. I am not a banker, but I definitely am a "beer drinking gas bag" so I don't know if that holds water.

I think it comes down more to competitiveness and the aging process. On this board the young folks who join a private club note there aren't that many young folks willing to pay the money to play golf. As I get older (late 40s now) I am sure my vision of what golf is will change to a less competitive more social event. One in which I won't want to be paired with people I don't know as well so I can "compete." I will want to have fun.

Private course demographics are older, and older folks play for different reasons. I don't think its sandbagging so much as a change in priority.

As an 87 year old with whom I used to play a lot of golf with says, "That shot sucked, but, I am just lucky to be on TOP of the grass." He doesn't play in the events because he is just happy to be playing, not competing, playing.

[OBon18]

[quote name='Twitch12' timestamp='1410360282' post='10095079']I am lucky that my course has to turn players away for the CC. We have a huge turnout for the 3 day event and every flight is full. We had probably 20 players who are scratch or better and probably half of those are college players. There is a band on Saturday night, calcutta, great food and the pool is packed all day with the wives and kids. It really is a big family event. I credit the success of the event and amount of participation to the amount of cash games that are held on a regular basis. Our players are not scared of having their score posted and anyone that sandbags wold get called out in a heartbeat. We have a pro that is extremely involved with members and a very accomplished player in his day. He seem to understand what has to be done to drive interest in these events.[/quote]

There is a Calcutta for your club championship?

[Ballgofarboy]

I would think that country clubs exude smaller group concepts and there just are not that many good golfers at one club to make a tournament that dynamic. The Public links here is the same but also an issue we have is that summer time it is very hot and the snowbirds are north. Things tend to get busier in the fall / winter but also more pricey.

Then again when I look around courses all I see these days are gray headed old guys. They tend not to care about playing tournaments.

Some of the tourneys I see names that play and I have played with a number of them and they are fairly decent players until you put them in a tournament. Then it is CHOKEs away.

Cannot tell you the number of 4 hcps shooting in the mid 80's, it is laughable!

[2bGood]

This is not an issue at our club. We get around 150 players each year and have 4 flights for our three day event.

[Bogie_Nights]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1410365611' post='10095593']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410347049' post='10094239']
In the championship flights, it used to be that clubs had 20-30 guys with mid-single digit handicaps, anyone of whom could win. These days, there always seems to be 4 or 5 High School or College players who can shoot under par & and 4 or 5 more guys around Scratch of better. Not many 5 indexes have a chance against that competition.

I've belonged to 6 or 7 clubs through the years and up until 10 years ago or so, a pair of 76's would most likely win the Club Championships. These days? Someone's going to come in a couple over Par, at worst.

The dynamic of Club Membership as it applies to "players" has changed dramatically over the last 15 or so years. Now you have the typical 45-60 year olds who have been playing golf for 25+ years and may carry a mid-single digit ... then you have the "kids" of those members, who are going to clean everyone's clock by throwing up a 69/73.
[/quote]THIS is spot on regarding the Championship flight at my club, a top tier club Player wise, and of a few other clubs in town, Oakmont included. I have four Championships(1986/278, 1987/281, 1993/278 & '94/277, Par 70/280), though mine were won with a three day, 72 hole "Final Foursome" medal play with the final 36 holes being on Sunday. Starting in 1998, we cut the finals to a Sat-Sun 36 hole medal finals. Following a "rededication" in 2009-2012, where I took my cap from a 3 to a +1 to +2.58, I took runner-up in 2009, '10 & '12, where I went 138('09), 139('10 & '12), with a par of 70/140. I really preferred the 72 holes and 36 hole Sunday finale because I felt that it put a premium on one's mental game and introduced a modicum of "toughness" into a not too tough sport, lol. Needless to say, I was in the minority and it got voted down 7-2, lol.

In all three of my recent runner-ups, I lost to a college kid, in 2009, a +3 who played for a MAC school, and in '10 & '12 the same kid, a +3.5 who played for a Fla D II or III program. Where as there used to be 6-8 guys who could really challenge for the Championship, now, there are probably 12-15, with all of these kids, so that is good. The bar has definitely been raised, so to speak.

What was frustrating for me was that I did not loose these, as my final round of a 36 hole medal final were 68, 68, 69. I played my a** off and got beat by a better player that day. I can see how these other guys would get frustrated and not enter, though I'm delusional enough to believe that a putt here or an iron there, and I'm in the game, lol. Maybe I should accept reality and aging gracefully, LMAO.

However, as Brian said, and I know of 7-8 Players, all legit scratch to 4 caps, and 4 are prior Champions, who chose not to enter because they didn't feel that they could put the scores up to compete for the Championship.

I believe that 4 of them have the physical games to compete and go red in the final 36, though mentally, for whatever reason, they believed that they could not.

With me, just because you cap is +3.5, that doesn't mean s*** to me, lol. I wanna see you do that with me standing there, lol.

I'm gonna make you beat my a**.

A lot of guys obviously don't think that way.

However Brian nailed it and though a lot of these kids do indeed play the "circuits," Junior and others, many still throw their hats in the Club's ring. I would say that at least half of the spots are taken by HS and college kids, all scratch or Plus. Ironically, I feel that a 72 hole, 36 hole Sunday would even things out with some of the older guys and make these kids work a little harder, though my trying to reintroduce that format was shot down in 2010, lol.

As I've said before, I see nothing wrong with that. They are members in good standing, they are amateurs and I would never want that crystal knowing that there was another Player in my club walking around thinking that he could beat me but chose not to enter.

We have an 18 hole qualifier for 30 spots because the Prior year's Champion & Runner-Up get byes into the Match-Play. We then play Match-Play down to a "Final Foursome," which plays a Sat-Sun 36 hole medal finals. We used to have 40-50 guys sign up(4 cap/below), and there now is 30-35, with 4-5 years where they didn't have the 30 needed to fill the bracket, though in the past 5-6 years we have been able to fill them.

Also, I am single, and I literally lived at the club from 2009-2012, playing and practicing every evening that it wasn't raining. A married man with a wife and/or family just can't do that. They have a life. I had none, outside of golf and my company, lol.

Regarding the cap flights, yep, Brian hit it, sandbaggers.

As a board member, I know that we do everything that we can to limit this, and the one thing that I do state at our annual season kick-off Stag dinner, is that you will only "bag" us one time, so that crystal better had be worth it, because you will not get a second shot. Ironically, we really have to watch the upper flights, and those guys are so damned erratic, and their scores really are all over the map, well, I'm only in charge of the Championship Flight and the first two net flights, lol. That's enough

The times, they are a changing.

Great points Bro!

I hope all's well

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

These "badass kids" kill it in the CCs, but then they give it a try in the mini-tours and shlt gets real. Their turn to get pounded, and they come running back to their local course...

Always someone better than you, unless I see you on TV during the weekends... Even then, there's a Tiger/Phil/Rory/Adam/Bubba/Sergio etc... that'll kick your azz...

[4Par]

[quote name='helper_monkey' timestamp='1410386057' post='10097591'][quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410350409' post='10094365']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410348887' post='10094293']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410347049' post='10094239']Just my opinion, but 2 things have changed.

There's too much sandbagging going on in the handicap flights, so most "competitive" guys won't bother.

In the championship flights, it used to be that clubs had 20-30 guys with mid-single digit handicaps, anyone of whom could win. These days, there always seems to be 4 or 5 High School or College players who can shoot under par & and 4 or 5 more guys around Scratch of better. Not many 5 indexes have a chance against that competition.

I've belonged to 6 or 7 clubs through the years and up until 10 years ago or so, a pair of 76's would most likely win the Club Championships. These days? Someone's going to come in a couple over Par, at worst.

The dynamic of Club Membership as it applies to "players" has changed dramatically over the last 15 or so years. Now you have the typical 45-60 year olds who have been playing golf for 25+ years and may carry a mid-single digit ... then you have the "kids" of those members, who are going to clean everyone's clock by throwing up a 69/73.[/quote]

Are you at my club in NY? Lol


[/quote]

Nope, but all the Northeast clubs seem to be facing the same dynamics

i have no clue about the rest of the country, although I know Florida is similar.
[/quote]

We have the same issue with the Championship flight at my club in Alabama. A 4 or 5 handicap has almost no chance to win. The last three years the final score had been under par for the 3 rounds of the Championship flight. We don't really have a problem with sandbagging in the lower flights, though (or at least not in the first or second flight).[/quote]

As a 4 or 5 I don't care if I don't stand a chance... I'm there for the camaraderie and to say I participated.....

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410401825' post='10098917']
[quote name='helper_monkey' timestamp='1410386057' post='10097591'][quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410350409' post='10094365']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410348887' post='10094293']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410347049' post='10094239']Just my opinion, but 2 things have changed.

There's too much sandbagging going on in the handicap flights, so most "competitive" guys won't bother.

In the championship flights, it used to be that clubs had 20-30 guys with mid-single digit handicaps, anyone of whom could win. These days, there always seems to be 4 or 5 High School or College players who can shoot under par & and 4 or 5 more guys around Scratch of better. Not many 5 indexes have a chance against that competition.

I've belonged to 6 or 7 clubs through the years and up until 10 years ago or so, a pair of 76's would most likely win the Club Championships. These days? Someone's going to come in a couple over Par, at worst.

The dynamic of Club Membership as it applies to "players" has changed dramatically over the last 15 or so years. Now you have the typical 45-60 year olds who have been playing golf for 25+ years and may carry a mid-single digit ... then you have the "kids" of those members, who are going to clean everyone's clock by throwing up a 69/73.[/quote]

Are you at my club in NY? Lol


[/quote]

Nope, but all the Northeast clubs seem to be facing the same dynamics

i have no clue about the rest of the country, although I know Florida is similar.
[/quote]

We have the same issue with the Championship flight at my club in Alabama. A 4 or 5 handicap has almost no chance to win. The last three years the final score had been under par for the 3 rounds of the Championship flight. We don't really have a problem with sandbagging in the lower flights, though (or at least not in the first or second flight).[/quote]

As a 4 or 5 I don't care if I don't stand a chance... I'm there for the camaraderie and to say I participated.....
[/quote]THIS is a great attitude and what it's all about, at least from my perspective!!

Very Well Played 4P!

Continued Success

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[golfortennis]

We had our club championship over labor day weekend, and sort of the same thing. We have 5 flights in the men's division, play 54 holes. We had 14 guys in champ flight this year, but 19 in A flight where I was, and 24 in B flight. Champ flight is course hcp +-4, A 5-8, B 9-12. 30% of each flight gets cut after two rounds, Champ off gold tees, A,B,C off blue, D off white.

The total number of guys has been relatively steady, but the composition was different. 14 is the smallest champ flight l can recall in my 5 years here. There was one guy who is over 60 and his factor has brought him down to A flight, and another couple guys who are right around the threshold, who fell into A this year. But I do know one guy played up. Since I finished second this year(which gets my name on a board) I'm thinking of playing up myself. I think I would have made the cut this year, but last year was a very tough field. 78-78 did not make it last year, and that's a good score on our course from there.

The event is flighted, so other than massaging the index to get into a lower flight, which may have happened, but it's still being looked into, the sandbagging isn't rampant. Slow play is a big reason, though. One of our top players is slower than molasses, so if he goes out early, it can really cause issues. Our new HP was on top of things a little more than the old, but it was still nearly a 5 hour round each day.

I think part of it may be, though, the changes outside as well. For instance, here in Ontario, we have a cash-grab, er, I mean law, that results in an automatic fine and 3-day suspension of your license if you blow between .05 and .08. So do you really have that extra beer? And while some guys actually stay and party like in the old days, that, among other things, has really dampened the club C spirit with a lot of people. I am in a small minority who are there to compete, and consider the competition fun. Yeah I don't mind having some laughs afterwards, but being under the gun on the course is the fun for me. But I'm a small minority.

And then there is the date: labor day weekend. A lot of guys decide(or have it decided for them) that they are doing something else that weekend. We have a long weekend in August that it could be moved to, but I suspect you would just have different people missing it, rather than higher attendance.

We pay $100, and that gets us 3 lunches, and a great dinner. I assume some goes into the prize pool as well. Our flight paid out 8 guys, with the biggest GC being $100(winner also gets a trophy). So there is some incentive, but not enough to cheat.

I used to think I had an answer, but as time goes by, I really don't know what the answer is. We have a decent pool of competitive players, but....

[Pepperturbo]

I keep hearing society is changing, maybe it is... Its hard for me to accept the possible reality, too many golfers are afraid of getting beat by younger players, so they elect not to play in the Championship flight. Maybe its that many competitive members are getting older and lose interest after playing so many years. One thing I see in business, 20-40 something youth don't have nearly the competitive desire (away from the computer) or fortitude as my generation.

[hayzooos]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1410463561' post='10102839']
I keep hearing society is changing, maybe it is... Its hard for me to accept the possible reality, too many golfers are afraid of getting beat by younger players, so they elect not to play in the Championship flight. Maybe its that many competitive members are getting older and lose interest after playing so many years. [b]One thing I see in business, 20-40 something youth don't have nearly the competitive desire (away from the computer) or fortitude as my generation.[/b]
[/quote]

Being 31, I can understand where you're coming from. I'm at that point where I'm on the cusp because I don't think that mindset quite pertains to people about 35+. That's the cutoff I've been seeing personally. I've always fallen closer to the 'older guard' my entire life. Maybe it was the way I was raised, who knows, but I've been referred to as 'old school' by many. Still hold doors open for ladies, always take my hat off inside (regardless of what my hair looks like, it's the polite thing to do.) Still stay 'sir' and 'ma'am' due to my time close to the south. Some people don't think NORTH Carolina is quite south, but I'd venture it is.

Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

So you have a handful (not a majority) of people in that age range who have figured that out. They know a company's biggest expense is always going to be employees, so those will be the first things to go when times get tough. You don't see people work for the same company for 40 years anymore. It's not always on the employee either. So you have a few people who know what they've been taught their entire lives is a complete lie. The problem with people not having 'fortitude' as you call it is really the ones who have figured out there's an issue, but they don't know the solution. They feel stuck in a losing system. They realize they're working their balls off for someone else only to fall ever so slightly further behind than they were before.

I've been fortunate enough to be around some pretty smart people in my life, so I understand the only way people are going to get ahead in today's world is by having multiple streams of income because one ain't going to cut it anymore. Thing is, so many companies now give you this impression if you're not at the office for 60+ hours a week, you ain't doing your job. No, I am, just way more productive than most others. So I take the time away from the office and do other things to ultimately create passive sources of income. It's the only way to go and if people think they can rely on one job for the rest of their lives, they're freaking crazy. In the blink of an eye it can be gone and if that's your only meal ticket, what are you going to do?

People will spend every dollar they earn (sometimes and then some) and get hosed if they get laid off or don't get a promotion, whatever. Save some of that money and invest into other things so at least you can have [i]something [/i]coming in should source #1 dry up or go bye bye to someone younger, or someone in another country.

Apologies if this came off as a rant, but I'm pretty peeved when I'm lumped into a generation of people I see some serious issues with just because of my age.

[Mike_C]

I was runner up in my club championship in 2011 and 2012 back in NC. Both years I lead after the first round, fell to second after the second and couldn't keep up. We had a good group of low handicappers, from +2 to about 4-5, maybe a only a dozen or so of us, most in their late 30s/early 40s, I was over 50, we also had one guy in his 60s who was an awesome player for his age, hit it longer than me and was a scratch. They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.

I lost in 2011 to the former assistant pro at the club who quit being a pro, started selling insurance and got his amateur status back that year, I shot 71-79-73, I think lost by 4 that year. The 79 was literally in a hurricane, the guy who won shot 73 that day, my 79 was second best in the second round, brutal conditions The next year I lost to a 25 year old kid who had been playing on his Dad's membership his whole life, grew up on the course, just turned 25 and got his own membership about a month before so he could play in the CC. He had gotten a full ride to UNC Chapel Hill. Very good player, long hitter. I shot 71-73-78, I think he shot 75-68-73, I had pulled even after 3 on the last day, but then my putter let me down.... I think he has won it the next two years also.

I wasn't a member of anywhere last year, moved, changed jobs, only played about a dozen times. Now I am at a club that probably has about the same number of low handicappers, and has a good tradition of having some really good players, but I haven't even really got to know many people at the club this year, and my game has fallen apart. They had the CC in June, which was way too early for me to get my game in shape after feeling like I took the year before off. Also, I hurt my arm the day before practicing, called to cancel the morning of the CC, and found they had me playing in the first flight, not the championship flight (my handicap had gone up to 5). The first flight only plays two rounds instead of three. I called them back and said with one more day rest, I might give it a shot on Saturday. I did, but played horribly, didn't even finish in the money in the first flight, it was embarrassing. I'll give it a shot next year...

I do get the sense that their aren't as many good players here as there used to be, but its hard to tell....

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1410463561' post='10102839']
I keep hearing society is changing, maybe it is... Its hard for me to accept the possible reality, too many golfers are afraid of getting beat by younger players, so they elect not to play in the Championship flight. Maybe its that many competitive members are getting older and lose interest after playing so many years. [b]One thing I see in business, 20-40 something youth don't have nearly the competitive desire (away from the computer) or fortitude as my generation.[/b]
[/quote]

Being 31, I can understand where you're coming from. I'm at that point where I'm on the cusp because I don't think that mindset quite pertains to people about 35+. That's the cutoff I've been seeing personally. I've always fallen closer to the 'older guard' my entire life. Maybe it was the way I was raised, who knows, but I've been referred to as 'old school' by many. Still hold doors open for ladies, always take my hat off inside (regardless of what my hair looks like, it's the polite thing to do.) Still stay 'sir' and 'ma'am' due to my time close to the south. Some people don't think NORTH Carolina is quite south, but I'd venture it is.

Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

So you have a handful (not a majority) of people in that age range who have figured that out. They know a company's biggest expense is always going to be employees, so those will be the first things to go when times get tough. You don't see people work for the same company for 40 years anymore. It's not always on the employee either. So you have a few people who know what they've been taught their entire lives is a complete lie. The problem with people not having 'fortitude' as you call it is really the ones who have figured out there's an issue, but they don't know the solution. They feel stuck in a losing system. They realize they're working their balls off for someone else only to fall ever so slightly further behind than they were before.

I've been fortunate enough to be around some pretty smart people in my life, so I understand the only way people are going to get ahead in today's world is by having multiple streams of income because one ain't going to cut it anymore. Thing is, so many companies now give you this impression if you're not at the office for 60+ hours a week, you ain't doing your job. No, I am, just way more productive than most others. So I take the time away from the office and do other things to ultimately create passive sources of income. It's the only way to go and if people think they can rely on one job for the rest of their lives, they're freaking crazy. In the blink of an eye it can be gone and if that's your only meal ticket, what are you going to do?

People will spend every dollar they earn (sometimes and then some) and get hosed if they get laid off or don't get a promotion, whatever. Save some of that money and invest into other things so at least you can have [i]something [/i]coming in should source #1 dry up or go bye bye to someone younger, or someone in another country.

Apologies if this came off as a rant, but I'm pretty peeved when I'm lumped into a generation of people I see some serious issues with just because of my age.
[/quote]

Don't worry - I heard the same thing about myself from my father; and he did about himself from my grandfather.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']

Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

[/quote]

If we can get that global economy thing eliminated, there's no question participation would go up in Club Championships.

[hayzooos]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410477037' post='10104083']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']
Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

[/quote]

If we can get that global economy thing eliminated, there's no question participation would go up in Club Championships.
[/quote]

Heh, that's what you took from that? Got it.

[fishstix94]

I recently stopped participating in all tournaments held at my club, the sandbagging has become unbearable!!! I am a low single digit handicap and I consistently shoot in the low 70s in tournaments and I finish last almost every time.. The last one I played in we had a 14 handicap shoot 72 and a 8 handicap shot a 67....

The 8 handicap is one of the better golfers I have played with and every round that I have played with him this year he has broken par.. The whole system is a joke and I have voiced my opinions to the pro and he basically told me to not get rapped up in the competition but to view tournaments as a way for me to support him.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410494753' post='10105401']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410477037' post='10104083']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']
Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

[/quote]

If we can get that global economy thing eliminated, there's no question participation would go up in Club Championships.
[/quote]

Heh, that's what you took from that? Got it.
[/quote]

I hope this sound encouraging - I'm raising children now who are facing the same "problem" that you think you have.

I agree that the old way isn't entirely relevant to today's world. But it's not all bad advice. It's just different. In the past - the US was able to raise 3 generations of "work hard, go to school, get a job - live the American Dream". You are right - I agree - you can't follow your father's path in the same way he did, and end up in the same place. But so what??? But that doesn't mean that there isn't a different way to get to the same place - and it certainly doesn't mean that you can't do BETTER than your dad.

Some people see a path - and love to follow it. That path though - could lead you over a cliff. And some people see a new path and are excited to take it to see where it leads. I think for many folks in the future they will take the hybrid. They have to.

You can do anything...ANYTHING you want. I'm a big believer in thinking that it's better and more fulfilling to try and create your own perfect job, than it is to expect someone else to give it to you. Don't give in and look at the negative. Look at it positively. The world is a little different than Dad's world - but that's not a bad thing at all. You're still in the US - the best place in the world to reap rewards for working hard. But I agree - you can't simply "show up and get a prize" - the world is more competitive...but just a little. Don't be so down in the mouth.

You want a tip? If you want to be around some of the most creative minds of people who are innovative and trying to improve the world's condition - go to Silicon Valley...and see what's cooking. I spend a lot of time out there...and I work with entrepreneurs and finance people (I'm a hybrid). But on the innovation side - the things that go on out there are simply amazing. Don't spend a ton of time with the financial guys they'll make you want to suck on a pistol. But the energy of the startups is infectious. And at 30-something you're the perfect age to go in any of a million wonderful directions.

Good luck.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410494753' post='10105401']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410477037' post='10104083']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']
Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

[/quote]

If we can get that global economy thing eliminated, there's no question participation would go up in Club Championships.
[/quote]

Heh, that's what you took from that? Got it.
[/quote]

I didn't think the Forum nor this thread, was the place for the rant nor a more complete response.

IMO, the content of your post, is a perfect illustration of why my generation is concerned for the generation behind us. Some days it seems the entire generation is suffering from Dunning-Kruger effect.

[4Par]

[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410514914' post='10105799']
[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....
[/quote]

Age limit on the Club Championship is weird and something I haven't heard of. If you are the best player at the club you are the best player at the club.

Sounds like some older fellows on the board didn't like losing the trophy to some whippersnappers...

[BrianL99]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1410519757' post='10105889']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410514914' post='10105799']
[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....
[/quote]

Age limit on the Club Championship is weird and something I haven't heard of. If you are the best player at the club you are the best player at the club.

Sounds like some older fellows on the board didn't like losing the trophy to some whippersnappers...
[/quote]

Every club I've belonged to has tried to implement some such rule, to prevent the "kids" from winning. Luckily, most of them have failed. It's not a new phenomena.

Back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine almost won the Vermont Open as a 15/16 year old ... they immediately adopted a minimum age standard.

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410520780' post='10105913']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1410519757' post='10105889']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410514914' post='10105799']
[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....
[/quote]

Age limit on the Club Championship is weird and something I haven't heard of. If you are the best player at the club you are the best player at the club.

Sounds like some older fellows on the board didn't like losing the trophy to some whippersnappers...
[/quote]

Every club I've belonged to has tried to implement some such rule, to prevent the "kids" from winning. Luckily, most of them have failed. It's not a new phenomena.

Back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine almost won the Vermont Open as a 15/16 year old ... they immediately adopted a minimum age standard.
[/quote]

That is sad, doesn't surprise me in the least bit though hearing stories from other club pros of some of the debauchery that went on at their previous private clubs. I am in the resort golf business now and while it does come with its own set of headaches, members are actually a welcome change of pace.

[Mike_C]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410520780' post='10105913']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1410519757' post='10105889']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410514914' post='10105799']
[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....
[/quote]

Age limit on the Club Championship is weird and something I haven't heard of. If you are the best player at the club you are the best player at the club.

Sounds like some older fellows on the board didn't like losing the trophy to some whippersnappers...
[/quote]

Every club I've belonged to has tried to implement some such rule, to prevent the "kids" from winning. Luckily, most of them have failed. It's not a new phenomena.

Back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine almost won the Vermont Open as a 15/16 year old ... they immediately adopted a minimum age standard.
[/quote]

This was the first real private club I had been a member of. I can see the rationale, the club championship is for dues paying members, most have jobs, responsibilities, etc. they aren't some 17 year old kid who play/practices 8-10 hours a day. If they wouldn't have had this rule in place, the guy who is the current club champion, and beat me in 2012, probably would have won the thing now for at least 10 years straight, he was a high school all american, was a great player from the time he was probably 14. Also, they had a junior club championship, that is where these kids were supposed to play. I do remember some grumblings about not letting another college kid play while I was there. Son of one of the guys on the golf committee, good player, not great, he tried to get the rule changed, and was shot down.

I used to play at a public course when I lived in Michigan, we had our own club championship, and it usually was won by one of the college kids, every now and then one of the older guys would win. I remember finishing 3rd my last year living there, first and second were two kids who were playing in college, I declared myself the club's middle age champion...... Should have demanded my own trophy.....

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410528674' post='10106317']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410520780' post='10105913']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1410519757' post='10105889']
[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1410514914' post='10105799']
[quote name='Mike_C' timestamp='1410472975' post='10103747']They did exclude kids, you had to be a member, could be a junior member, but you couldn't play on your Mom and Dad's membership.
....[/quote]

IMO that is a ridiculous policy.... Any club that has that type of attitude wouldn't get my $$$....
[/quote]

Age limit on the Club Championship is weird and something I haven't heard of. If you are the best player at the club you are the best player at the club.

Sounds like some older fellows on the board didn't like losing the trophy to some whippersnappers...
[/quote]

Every club I've belonged to has tried to implement some such rule, to prevent the "kids" from winning. Luckily, most of them have failed. It's not a new phenomena.

Back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine almost won the Vermont Open as a 15/16 year old ... they immediately adopted a minimum age standard.
[/quote]

This was the first real private club I had been a member of. I can see the rationale, the club championship is for dues paying members, most have jobs, responsibilities, etc. they aren't some 17 year old kid who play/practices 8-10 hours a day. If they wouldn't have had this rule in place, the guy who is the current club champion, and beat me in 2012, probably would have won the thing now for at least 10 years straight, he was a high school all american, was a great player from the time he was probably 14. Also, they had a junior club championship, that is where these kids were supposed to play. I do remember some grumblings about not letting another college kid play while I was there. Son of one of the guys on the golf committee, good player, not great, he tried to get the rule changed, and was shot down.

I used to play at a public course when I lived in Michigan, we had our own club championship, and it usually was won by one of the college kids, every now and then one of the older guys would win. I remember finishing 3rd my last year living there, first and second were two kids who were playing in college, I declared myself the club's middle age champion...... Should have demanded my own trophy.....
[/quote]

Now if a Junior CC is available for the younger players to compete in than that is a different ballgame. If there isn't than I personally think any member of a club, junior or not should be allowed to compete. If they are good enough to place or even win in the gross Championship flight I think that is awesome. To leave a player out, young or old, because they can practice more than "a working man" member I don't see how you can draw that line. What if one of those "working man" members had a job that allowed him to be at the course practicing just as much as the college kid? Should he be out too?

Like I stated above, sounds like members that want to limit their competition and taking out the better, younger players was what was attempted. Glad it didn't work.

[golfortennis]

On one level I can understand the desire to limit things. The full dues paying members do carry the freight. We have a "secondary" promotion where people not married/related to a primary can pay about half the dues, have the same restrictions as spouses who play off secondary memberships, but are given full access to club events. On the one hand, I could see it sucking to lose to one of those guys, but on the other hand, the whole point of the promotion is that hopefully they like it so much they ante up. So can you really keep them out of Club C and expect them to get a good feel for the place?

We have a junior club championship, and if the junior winner is eligible for champ flight, then they get to play. So this year there was no junior. But intermediates, secondaries, everyone else is in. I don't have a problem with that. I do know that one year the club "sponsored" a kid who went to NC State, and I don't think he was eligible, but he also basically didn't pay any dues.

What really irked me was years ago at my old semi-private, I was on an intermediate membership. I wouldn't have been able to play in Club C if it was overbooked, but if you were intermediate and one of your parents was a full member, then you'd be ok. I thought that was wrong, but it ended up not being an issue.

[hayzooos]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410513921' post='10105779']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410494753' post='10105401']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1410477037' post='10104083']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1410470057' post='10103473']
Here's a reason why, I think. Our whole lives we've been fed the line of go to school, get a good degree, get a good job, work hard, and everything will be fine and you can retire. Here's the problem though...that doesn't work anymore. It's complete BS. The global economy (among other things) changed all that.

[/quote]

If we can get that global economy thing eliminated, there's no question participation would go up in Club Championships.
[/quote]

Heh, that's what you took from that? Got it.
[/quote]

I didn't think the Forum nor this thread, was the place for the rant nor a more complete response.

IMO, the content of your post, is a perfect illustration of why my generation is concerned for the generation behind us. Some days it seems the entire generation is suffering from Dunning-Kruger effect.
[/quote]

So you're saying we all think we're better than we are? Like entitlement mentality? That's a real problem and I absolutely loathe it. I've always understood to get ahead, you must work harder AND smarter than the other guy. I see a whole lot of people wanting more, but refusing to actually do anything to get there or just expect it'll be handed to them. Drives me nuts. If people would just take more personal responsibility for their actions and the outcomes, it would be a much better place.

But, I'll end with the completely off topic nonsense and get back to more golf related talk. Apologies for de-railing the thread.

[ChipDriver]

Around DC/MD/VA and the SF area - if you're a member of a country club - then your spouse and children are NOT members - they are family of the member and accorded MOST of the privileges of the club, but they are not considered members. Very old fashioned that way. But in theory if you had 500 paying members of a club, you could in theory have over 1500 actual golfers using the course if you include the spouses and children.

Popular events like a Club Championship or a Member/Guest only allow about 100-120 participants...and they are often over-subscribed and have waiting lists. That's not even enough space for all the Members to play....so it stands to reason that they aren't going to allow a non-member to take the place of members. We have that same situation for Member/Guest tourneys.

Fast forward to today - the CC is under-subscribed - but they are creating a reason to exclude non-members again...perhaps for ego purposes. I don't agree with clubs that do that - but I certainly understand why they would want to do t**.