All Things Michigan Golf....the Mulligan (MOD EDIT: NO POLITICS, NO COVID-19, NO ECONOMICS)

[Openwater22]

[quote name='dozer996' timestamp='1426733305' post='11170813']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426730702' post='11170503'][quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426716427' post='11168979']
[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1426715666' post='11168917']
3JP, I was wondering the same thing regarding OD's driver. Not taking the other side of that bet!
[/quote]
Looking forward to the day 1 update in a few hours. I'm guessing he's in love with it after round 1.
[/quote]
Too many beers and black russians for a detailed post. Short version, for now the driver is safe, but we may be wedge shopping before tomorrow's round.[/quote]

Get that 14* bounce SW in his hands
[/quote]
I did, but he's not buying how well it works down here.

[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426736615' post='11171117']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426736124' post='11171065']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426730702' post='11170503']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426716427' post='11168979']
[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1426715666' post='11168917']
3JP, I was wondering the same thing regarding OD's driver. Not taking the other side of that bet!
[/quote]
Looking forward to the day 1 update in a few hours. I'm guessing he's in love with it after round 1.
[/quote]
Too many beers and black russians for a detailed post. Short version, for now the driver is safe, but we may be wedge shopping before tomorrow's round.
[/quote]
You have him try the 14* bounce wedge? Playing down there on courses that aren't overseeded is not a true reflection of your chipping ability.
[/quote]
Duh. This is WRX, it is always the equipment's fault. As far as the driver goes, I would bet it is only a few billy blocks away from the BST.
[/quote]
1 billy block yesterday

[Openwater22]

[quote name='BG5' timestamp='1426754136' post='11171697']
Bluefan,

Have had my eye on a few chippers lately . That would give me 18 clubs in the bag ��

Knicker,

I have never played BCCC but have heard it's amazing. I would love to have a chance to play it ����

OW,
You have to admit that the first 3 holes on the Signature course are pretty cool �� although I have always been a sucker for elevated tee shots.
[/quote]
i have nothing against Treetops, just one opinion that the signature course is way overrated by the media. Jones masterpiece and fazio premier are both better than Smith signature.

[odshot68]

Lots of rust yesterday from 5 months off. The XR Pro driver is solid. Its not coming out of the bag. The bermuda is nasty to chip out of, my low bounce 60 is worthless down here. Tried out the vokey K grind..awesome! Definitely need more bounce here. Cleveland wedges don't have the same feel as vokey wedges either.

[swizbeatz]

[quote name='odshot68' timestamp='1426763286' post='11171839']
Lots of rust yesterday from 5 months off. The XR Pro driver is solid. Its not coming out of the bag. The bermuda is nasty to chip out of, my low bounce 60 is worthless down here. Tried out the vokey K grind..awesome! Definitely need more bounce here. Cleveland wedges don't have the same feel as vokey wedges either.
[/quote]

Save your wedges, it's only the turf down there. It's muddy here and I didn't hit a single crappy chip like I regularly did down there. I almost blew up my wedges and I'm glad I didnt.

Good to hear the driver is working. I hit it yesterday and it feels hot, I'm not good enough for 45.5" or 440 CC to make sense though.

Unrelated note I'm -4 thru 2 MI rounds of golf. Shot a -3 69 round 2 which tied my low from last year. I 3 putted 2 par 5's for par and also the last par 5 for a bogey, greens were a smooth 7 on the stimp lol. I'm going to make so many more birdies on par 5's this year with the new top end setup.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426762903' post='11171825']
[quote name='BG5' timestamp='1426754136' post='11171697']
Bluefan,

Have had my eye on a few chippers lately . That would give me 18 clubs in the bag ��

Knicker,

I have never played BCCC but have heard it's amazing. I would love to have a chance to play it ����

OW,
You have to admit that the first 3 holes on the Signature course are pretty cool �� although I have always been a sucker for elevated tee shots.
[/quote]
i have nothing against Treetops, just one opinion that the signature course is way overrated by the media. Jones masterpiece and fazio premier are both better than Smith signature.
[/quote]
I thought you hated the Jones? Wasn't it you who wrote a post (maybe in the old MI thread) about how it was everything that was wrong with course design from when it was built--overly penal, etc.
I played the course for the first time in many years two years ago, and I basically agree with that assessment, and the only course at Treetops I'd rank behind it is the tradition, and that's only because it's really easy and short. It's one of only two courses on which I broke par last year.

[knickerbocker]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426770748' post='11172303']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426762903' post='11171825']
[quote name='BG5' timestamp='1426754136' post='11171697']
Bluefan,

Have had my eye on a few chippers lately . That would give me 18 clubs in the bag ��

Knicker,

I have never played BCCC but have heard it's amazing. I would love to have a chance to play it ����

OW,
You have to admit that the first 3 holes on the Signature course are pretty cool �� although I have always been a sucker for elevated tee shots.
[/quote]
i have nothing against Treetops, just one opinion that the signature course is way overrated by the media. Jones masterpiece and fazio premier are both better than Smith signature.
[/quote]
I thought you hated the Jones? Wasn't it you who wrote a post (maybe in the old MI thread) about how it was everything that was wrong with course design from when it was built--overly penal, etc.
I played the course for the first time in many years two years ago, and I basically agree with that assessment, and the only course at Treetops I'd rank behind it is the tradition, and that's only because it's really easy and short. It's one of only two courses on which I broke par last year.
[/quote]

The Jones course is terrible. My favorite course at Treetops is the Fazio.

[HackerDave]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426773004' post='11172503']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426770748' post='11172303']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426762903' post='11171825']
[quote name='BG5' timestamp='1426754136' post='11171697']
Bluefan,

Have had my eye on a few chippers lately . That would give me 18 clubs in the bag ��

Knicker,

I have never played BCCC but have heard it's amazing. I would love to have a chance to play it ����

OW,
You have to admit that the first 3 holes on the Signature course are pretty cool �� although I have always been a sucker for elevated tee shots.
[/quote]
i have nothing against Treetops, just one opinion that the signature course is way overrated by the media. Jones masterpiece and fazio premier are both better than Smith signature.
[/quote]
I thought you hated the Jones? Wasn't it you who wrote a post (maybe in the old MI thread) about how it was everything that was wrong with course design from when it was built--overly penal, etc.
I played the course for the first time in many years two years ago, and I basically agree with that assessment, and the only course at Treetops I'd rank behind it is the tradition, and that's only because it's really easy and short. It's one of only two courses on which I broke par last year.
[/quote]

The Jones course is terrible. My favorite course at Treetops is the Fazio.
[/quote]

LOL! I think the opposite. I love the Jones course and would rank the Fazio last. My order is Jones, Smith, Traditions and Fazio. It just doesn't work for me. I think we have played it three times and every time I leave feeling the same way. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[HackerDave]

[quote name='mattsam' timestamp='1426723290' post='11169649']
[quote name='FSCMatt' timestamp='1426695055' post='11166655']
Funny that Harbor Shores doesn't even make the list yet it hosts a Senior PGA event.
[/quote]

I don't love Harbor Shores, but MAN does it get shafted in these rankings!

We took a golf trip up 2 years ago and my two buddies both liked Harbor Shores BETTER than Point O Woods, Kingsley, and Forest Dunes. They only had Arcadia ranked higher. I told them they were nuts. I had Kinglsey #1, Forest Dunes and Arcadia T2, Harbor Shores 3, then Point O Woods 4.
For What its worth, I had Dunes Club above them all!
[/quote]

I don't think Harbor Shores gets shafted in the rankings. It's a horrible course. The layout is strange and the only thing missing from the greens is the windmill and clowns mouth. I've only played it once and lucked out having a member play with me, otherwise I would have been all over the place.

[mattsam]

[quote name='HackerDave' timestamp='1426774831' post='11172709']
[quote name='mattsam' timestamp='1426723290' post='11169649']
[quote name='FSCMatt' timestamp='1426695055' post='11166655']
Funny that Harbor Shores doesn't even make the list yet it hosts a Senior PGA event.
[/quote]

I don't love Harbor Shores, but MAN does it get shafted in these rankings!

We took a golf trip up 2 years ago and my two buddies both liked Harbor Shores BETTER than Point O Woods, Kingsley, and Forest Dunes. They only had Arcadia ranked higher. I told them they were nuts. I had Kinglsey #1, Forest Dunes and Arcadia T2, Harbor Shores 3, then Point O Woods 4.
For What its worth, I had Dunes Club above them all!
[/quote]

I don't think Harbor Shores gets shafted in the rankings. It's a horrible course. The layout is strange and the only thing missing from the greens is the windmill and clowns mouth. I've only played it once and lucked out having a member play with me, otherwise I would have been all over the place.
[/quote]

It takes someone to show you around the first time you play, I agree. But after that its straight forward. 1,2,4,10,11,12,13,14,17, and 18 are right out in front of you. No trickery. 3, 5, 6, 8, all you need to do is figure out what distance you need to hit off the tee.
The routing is what they had to work with. The condition of the course is TOP NOTCH. The yardage is short, but the greens make it challenging. 4 greens were softened this year- 17, 13, and I forget the other two.

[FSCMatt]

Harbor Shores deserves to be on this list. In the top 5 and maybe 10. Not a chance. But it should definitely be on there. The course is very playable, but hard to score on. I agree with the stupidity of the greens, but with them softening them it should help the course tremendously.

[3_Jack_Par]

SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!

[BillyZ2]

Anybody have any opinions on these courses?

Champion Hill
The Heathlands
Arcadia Bluffs (I know this one because I've played it)
Chestnut Hills
Bear Lake Highlands
Mountain Ridge/Crystal Mountain

Playing them Beginning of June

[dozer996]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

pure, scratch blades are really nice and actually pretty forgiving from when I tested them out. Enjoy

Speaking of enjoy, just popped the top on a KBS for the games.

[dozer996]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1426785710' post='11173989']
Anybody have any opinions on these courses?

Champion Hill
The Heathlands
Arcadia Bluffs (I know this one because I've played it)
Chestnut Hills
Bear Lake Highlands
Mountain Ridge/Crystal Mountain

Playing them Beginning of June
[/quote]

Out of the 2 courses at Crystal Mountain, the Mountain Ridge course is the better one. I've only played it a couple of times but from what I remember it is pretty good layout.

I played the Heathlands a while ago, and I do recall it being a fun course to play...with some dramatic elevation changes on a couple holes, especially a par 3. Course was in good shape.

Arcadia - Always in great shape and the views are great. Playing later in the day typically results in 5.5-6 hour round.

[knickerbocker]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

Money!

[Fellaheen51]

[quote name='dozer996' timestamp='1426786081' post='11174017']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1426785710' post='11173989']
Anybody have any opinions on these courses?

Champion Hill
The Heathlands
Arcadia Bluffs (I know this one because I've played it)
Chestnut Hills
Bear Lake Highlands
Mountain Ridge/Crystal Mountain

Playing them Beginning of June
[/quote]

Out of the 2 courses at Crystal Mountain, the Mountain Ridge course is the better one. I've only played it a couple of times but from what I remember it is pretty good layout.

I played the Heathlands a while ago, and I do recall it being a fun course to play...with some dramatic elevation changes on a couple holes, especially a par 3. Course was in good shape.

Arcadia - Always in great shape and the views are great. Playing later in the day typically results in 5.5-6 hour round.
[/quote]

Have good friends in this area, we are up there often during the summer. We play courses that are user friendly for the ladies as we all like to golf.

Pinecroft - decent user friendly course with some great views of Crystal Lake. Priced right, especially the twilight that starts at 3.

Heathlands - an off the radar course in Onekema. A favorite high value, modest cost course. Its never been crowdwd when we have played it. As mentioned, well maintained with the second nine being the more difficult because of the elevation changes and being more wooded. The ladies play here, when we played Arcadia. Zero 19th hole options, just a tiki hut. Just drive up the road to Arcadia for libations and appetizers on the veranda.

Crystal Mountain - friend works part time here, so we always play it for free. Mountain Ridge is the so called Championship course. Seems to become more difficult as one progress thru the round. Fairly generous landing areas. Betsie Valley is the other course at CM, the older resort course. Nice it's own right, find that one needs to be more careful off the tee than MR. Both are well maintained.

Bear Lake Highlands - played in once. Wasn't impressed, prettty uninspiring.

Champion Hill - companion course to Pinecroft (IIRC). Like the latter better if for no other reason than the views.

Cannot always be rolling at the big $ courses when usually paying for two. Always on the lookout for decent quality, modest cost tracts that she can play without being intimitated by the difficulty.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426787600' post='11174149']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

Money!
[/quote]
Yes, lots of it...

Also got the call today that some KBS I have reserved is ready to be picked up, as well! Any other day, that would be the most exciting news of the day.

[O.D.underpar]

[quote name='dozer996' timestamp='1426785857' post='11174001']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

pure, scratch blades are really nice and actually pretty forgiving from when I tested them out. Enjoy

Speaking of enjoy, just popped the top on a KBS for the games.
[/quote]

Good choice doz. We have it on tap up here.

[knickerbocker]

KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426795059' post='11174937']
[quote name='dozer996' timestamp='1426785857' post='11174001']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

pure, scratch blades are really nice and actually pretty forgiving from when I tested them out. Enjoy

Speaking of enjoy, just popped the top on a KBS for the games.
[/quote]

Good choice doz. We have it on tap up here.
[/quote]
Where is that?

[O.D.underpar]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426799726' post='11175391']
KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.
[/quote]
I love founders. Dirty bastxxx and all day ipa are great. Their tap house in gr has all kind of other greatness.

[O.D.underpar]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426799810' post='11175405']
[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426795059' post='11174937']
[quote name='dozer996' timestamp='1426785857' post='11174001']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426785518' post='11173977']
SB-1s are ready! Picking them up tomorrow!
[/quote]

pure, scratch blades are really nice and actually pretty forgiving from when I tested them out. Enjoy

Speaking of enjoy, just popped the top on a KBS for the games.
[/quote]
Bowling alley/sports bar in big rapids. It is the only reason we are here. But the tvs are big and the kbs is spectacular.

Good choice doz. We have it on tap up here.
[/quote]
Where is that?
[/quote]
Bowling alley/ sports bar in big rapids. We are just here for the KBS. But the tvs are big and the KBS is spectacular.

[Cspackler6]

[quote name='HackerDave' timestamp='1426774831' post='11172709']
[quote name='mattsam' timestamp='1426723290' post='11169649']
[quote name='FSCMatt' timestamp='1426695055' post='11166655']
Funny that Harbor Shores doesn't even make the list yet it hosts a Senior PGA event.
[/quote]

I don't love Harbor Shores, but MAN does it get shafted in these rankings!

We took a golf trip up 2 years ago and my two buddies both liked Harbor Shores BETTER than Point O Woods, Kingsley, and Forest Dunes. They only had Arcadia ranked higher. I told them they were nuts. I had Kinglsey #1, Forest Dunes and Arcadia T2, Harbor Shores 3, then Point O Woods 4.
For What its worth, I had Dunes Club above them all!
[/quote]

I don't think Harbor Shores gets shafted in the rankings. It's a horrible course. The layout is strange and the only thing missing from the greens is the windmill and clowns mouth. I've only played it once and lucked out having a member play with me, otherwise I would have been all over the place.
[/quote]

I have to disagree about harbor shores. The routing is funky for sure. There are can be multiple breaks on many greens if not close to the pin. I one i could classify as a funhouse green would be #10 which I happen to like. it is obvious on the approach where the ball should and should not be. Some of the other real difficult putts out there are my fault not the courses, IMO.

[knickerbocker]

[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426801050' post='11175525']
[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426799726' post='11175391']
KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.
[/quote]
I love founders. Dirty bastxxx and all day ipa are great. Their tap house in gr has all kind of other greatness.
[/quote]

I don't like All Day - but I am not a big session fan. I am not a DB fan either. Centennial is just ok to me. I have been to the tap house a few times and had some solid beers. But Bell's is my wife and Shorts is my Mistress.

I know my opinion is biased, but I think Kzoo beer scene beats GR with Bells. Arcadia, and places like Gonzos, Boatyard, and Lattitude 42. I like Perrin, Founders is ok, and not a fan of Vivant (although the brewery is really cool).

[1puttTUT]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426809785' post='11176445']
[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426801050' post='11175525']
[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426799726' post='11175391']
KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.
[/quote]
I love founders. Dirty bastxxx and all day ipa are great. Their tap house in gr has all kind of other greatness.
[/quote]

I don't like All Day - but I am not a big session fan. I am not a DB fan either. Centennial is just ok to me. I have been to the tap house a few times and had some solid beers. But Bell's is my wife and Shorts is my Mistress.

I know my opinion is biased, but I think Kzoo beer scene beats GR with Bells. Arcadia, and places like Gonzos, Boatyard, and Lattitude 42. I like Perrin, Founders is ok, and not a fan of Vivant (although the brewery is really cool).
[/quote]

I'm with you on most points here. Session IPA's just don't make sense to me. If I wanted less alcohol in my system then I would just drink one less beer and have a little more water instead. Don't dilute my IPA's!

Kzoo scene is great, but can't knock GR either. I have close ties to both places, and both put out great beer.

Traverse City has an up-and-coming beer scene as well. I was a judge in a the TC IPA championship last fall, one of the beer week events that take place every November in TC.

On a side note, I will be heading to Asheville, NC in a couple weeks for work. Last year it tied GR for the 'Beer City USA' title. I'm planning on getting a few holes of golf in while I'm there as well, and will report back on the results.

After that it's on to Naples, FL for a few more days of work at our facility that we share with Harley Davidson.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this trip is all for the development of the 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee, but it's really more about the beer and golf right?

[itw419]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426809785' post='11176445']
[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426801050' post='11175525']
[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426799726' post='11175391']
KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.
[/quote]
I love founders. Dirty bastxxx and all day ipa are great. Their tap house in gr has all kind of other greatness.
[/quote]

I don't like All Day - but I am not a big session fan. I am not a DB fan either. Centennial is just ok to me. I have been to the tap house a few times and had some solid beers. But Bell's is my wife and Shorts is my Mistress.

I know my opinion is biased, but I think Kzoo beer scene beats GR with Bells. Arcadia, and places like Gonzos, Boatyard, and Lattitude 42. I like Perrin, Founders is ok, and not a fan of Vivant (although the brewery is really cool).
[/quote]

Not including Shorts because I like them a lot but the rest of your statement I am on the opposite side of you. now I haven't been to Gonzos, or Latitude 42 and Boatyard but Arcadia doesn't really do anything for me and Bells has a few beers I like. Two Hearted and Black Note are fantastic and Hopslam and Expedition are both really good but I think they make a lot of mediocre beers. I love Founders seasonal and speciality offerings. Not to mention mainstays like All Day and Porter. I always have a good time at their tap room too. Vivant always has good beers on tap but I think a lot of their canned beers are just ok. The Mitten is pretty cool and I think Perrin is awesome. The Original Hopcat is has lost some luster because there are more locations now but it still adds to the beer scene.

[itw419]

[quote name='1puttTUT' timestamp='1426811766' post='11176667']
[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426809785' post='11176445']
[quote name='O.D.underpar' timestamp='1426801050' post='11175525']
[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1426799726' post='11175391']
KBS is terrific. But really the only Founder's beer I get excited about.
[/quote]
I love founders. Dirty bastxxx and all day ipa are great. Their tap house in gr has all kind of other greatness.
[/quote]

I don't like All Day - but I am not a big session fan. I am not a DB fan either. Centennial is just ok to me. I have been to the tap house a few times and had some solid beers. But Bell's is my wife and Shorts is my Mistress.

I know my opinion is biased, but I think Kzoo beer scene beats GR with Bells. Arcadia, and places like Gonzos, Boatyard, and Lattitude 42. I like Perrin, Founders is ok, and not a fan of Vivant (although the brewery is really cool).
[/quote]

I'm with you on most points here. Session IPA's just don't make sense to me. If I wanted less alcohol in my system then I would just drink one less beer and have a little more water instead. Don't dilute my IPA's!

Kzoo scene is great, but can't knock GR either. I have close ties to both places, and both put out great beer.

Traverse City has an up-and-coming beer scene as well. I was a judge in a the TC IPA championship last fall, one of the beer week events that take place every November in TC.

On a side note, I will be heading to Asheville, NC in a couple weeks for work. Last year it tied GR for the 'Beer City USA' title. I'm planning on getting a few holes of golf in while I'm there as well, and will report back on the results.

After that it's on to Naples, FL for a few more days of work at our facility that we share with Harley Davidson.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this trip is all for the development of the 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee, but it's really more about the beer and golf right?
[/quote]

Wicked Weed, Olde Hickory, Foothills and NODA( Hop Drop and Roll is awesome) are some NC breweries to look into.

[dozer996]

A friend of mine is the co-owner of Perrin so I'm partial to their brewery but the Mitten has fantastic beer. A mutual friend is one of the Brewers there and hooks up Growlers at our summer parties. He makes a peanut butter beer once in a while, he said he hates it because of the cleanup but it's dang good.

The Score on the North side if GR has Palm trees in the summer and 126 beers on tap plus bikini Volleyball leagues

[odshot68]

Chipping is definitely different than back home. The 54.14 full sole is money down here. I definitely want to try back in Michigan before making any decisions.

[Openwater22]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1426770748' post='11172303']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1426762903' post='11171825']
[quote name='BG5' timestamp='1426754136' post='11171697']
Bluefan,

Have had my eye on a few chippers lately . That would give me 18 clubs in the bag ��

Knicker,

I have never played BCCC but have heard it's amazing. I would love to have a chance to play it ����

OW,
You have to admit that the first 3 holes on the Signature course are pretty cool �� although I have always been a sucker for elevated tee shots.
[/quote]
i have nothing against Treetops, just one opinion that the signature course is way overrated by the media. Jones masterpiece and fazio premier are both better than Smith signature.
[/quote]
I thought you hated the Jones? Wasn't it you who wrote a post (maybe in the old MI thread) about how it was everything that was wrong with course design from when it was built--overly penal, etc.
I played the course for the first time in many years two years ago, and I basically agree with that assessment, and the only course at Treetops I'd rank behind it is the tradition, and that's only because it's really easy and short. It's one of only two courses on which I broke par last year.
[/quote]
Context my friend...context. The Jones course is overly penal and is the poster child for everything gone wrong with 70's/80's/90's course design, but it's still better than Signature. The opinion here is, neither have a place in any "best of" ranking of Michigan courses. The national rags are going to include a "Treetops" course though, so it should be the Jones or fazio over the Smith course.