Blade users thread (NO DEBATING CLUBHEADS! NO Buy Sell Trade!)

[Bigmean]

I am with NR and I think Bhelts on this, but I am not sure what you guys are exactly what you guys are talking about, but yes the SW is accounted for and maybe deninny is saying the "sweetspot" is not?

 

Anyway, I think the mechanical systems are fine for the purpose, and look at it this way, nice shafts are so expensive, I would love to plug and play and sell shafts etc, or keep them as I change heads. The real con is that there is not an ISO standarded hosel that all companies are forced to use so that you can maintain your shaft investments. Kinda like how you used to "lose" your cell number if you changed carriers. I hate that but I know it won't go that route.

[b.helts]

An industry standard adapter would be nice for compatibility among drivers from different manufacturers. But as you said, it's not likely to happen.

 

Of course the engineers behind the new designs took into account the adapter with regard to sweet spot and CoG. They'd have to. Since the bore of the hosel is so much bigger for the adapter than it would have been for a .335 or .350 shaft, it may be the case that it's negligible. I admit that I'm not sure on the specifics, but I guarantee the engineers at Ping or Taylormade or wherever sure are.

[mahonie]

I've had three adjustable drivers and after tinkering with the set ups until I got comfortable, I found that with each of them the face was set 'square' and the loft was set at between 10-10.25*. Could have saved myself a bit of trouble and bought a glued driver!

[Nard_S]

I'm agnostic about adapters in drivers because of the utility they afford. However my preference is bonded. Notable to me that Mizuno's premium MP woods are bonded. It's done for better feel and maybe even sound imo. Today's offering emphasize high launch low spin bombing so feel and spin control take a back seat. I have had 5 titanium drivers, 4 are bonded , the 1 w/adapter is a JDM bomber not unlike TM's SLDR, only nicer. When I clock that one I care little about feel or sound.

[DeNinny]

I think you're arguing from a false premise. Raw head weight of drivers is lower now than it was before the adjustable "revolution".

 

For example: The R510TP was one of my favorite heads of all time. It's head weight is around 203g. The callaway epic is 195g and the epic sub zero is 197g. +/- a bit for manufacturing tolerances etc etc. The manufacturers take into account the weight of the adapter when they design these heads, so that the heads perform similar to how they would if they were designed to be glued.

 

The only worthwhile conclusions that can be drawn from comparisons between glued and adjustable drivers, must take into account the adapter as part of the head, not part of the shaft.

 

Edit to respond to my "world view": I use blades and currently use a bonded driver and three wood. I definitely do not "limit my worldview to just what is 'for sale'". Another swing and a miss.

 

I think you are supporting my point without even knowing it. By adding the heavier adapter the manufacturer HAD to make the head lighter in order to get the SW and other things to line up with the glued drivers. LMAO you just gave me the data behind my point.

 

And furthermore you have no data (at least not disclosed) as to how the CG locations changed between those drivers, nor how the head MOI changed and various other things changed. I think that is your false premise that "they took everything into account". Maybe none of it mattered in the first place was my point.

 

Also you may have missed that I said ALL OTHER THNGS EQUAL precisely to address the fact that someone would miss this and nitpick it with a completely separate argument.

 

And as to my last "swing and a miss", you clearly limited your world view in the context of driver adapters, so my point hit the mark perfectly in that context. LMAO they were your own words. I'm glad you have a more open view with other topics, but to the point that you specifically made yourself, you clearly limited your world view.

 

You're arguing in circles. You are the one that claimed SW would be higher with a driver with an adapter in it because it would be heavier. That is wrong. Now you are saying that they had to make the head weight smaller to make the SW be similar. Circle.

 

I don't understand your response to my edit. I have not limited my world view, I'm arguing that you are wrong. That has nothing whatsoever to do with my world view.

 

I've not made any statement, one way or the other, about the manufacturers or their tactics. I am simply saying that when they design an adjustable driver, they take into account the adapter. If you don't believe that is the case, then I think you're wrong. Anything else is assumption on your part.

 

Actually you have been arguing with me based on misinterpreting what I posted.

 

If you reread my original post, I said ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL an adapter will add SW because it is heavier than not having an adapter. And to that point, my statement is 100% true. You have clearly missed this, but I can guarantee it is in my post. LOL please try to read more carefully. And yes I understand that drivers are made lighter to account for this, but I clearly covered my opening statement with that disclaimer.

 

Also you may want to reread that I stated *IF* (<- keyword, clearly documented iny post) you were to have a limited world view, again I said *IF*, then it is a pointless argument between us. By stating *IF* I was clearly open to the possibility that you DIDN'T have a limited world view, which you now clearly stated that you don't. So I hope you can now see it was you that made the assumption about me and what I stated about you and only *IF* you had a limited world view.

 

So to me you have not proven anything I said as wrong because I put conditions on my points. You have clearly not read my points enough to see these points and so I can see how you think it is circular. But LOL my points were clear, and in summary I said...

 

1) ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL, an adapter is going to add SW to a driver. (The only way this is wrong is *if* the adapter was lighter than the glue.)

 

2) *IF* your world view is making an argument based on only what is for sale, then we are having a pointless argument because you are missing my bigger point. (This cannot be proven right or wrong because of the word *IF*).

 

And as to manufacturers accounting for everything with adapters, all you have proven is that they accounted for the SW change. It is you making the assumption that they have covered everything else. I never made any assumptions myself. I'm open to the fact that everything is accounted for, but I'm also open to the fact that it is insignificant in the first place. Only real data on CG location, MOI, SW, etc, will prove anything and remove all assumptions...which you made about everything except SW.

 

And now it is clear you are arguing points that I never made, and I am spending more time highlighting that you didn't clearly read what I posted and my clarifiers, so I am done responding to you. Have a good one!

[b.helts]

LOL OK.

[kaaayelll]

bH, the sooner you realize that DeNinny is always right, the sooner the air can come back in the room and we can have broader participation again. Every time he gets on one of his pathological quests to prove his intellectual superiority (which spans every conceivable topic...in the name of science, of course), we lose contributors. I think we're down to about 10 regular contributors at this point. Ninny, you've got plenty to add around here, but you just don't know when to stop.

[b.helts]

bH, the sooner you realize that DeNinny is always right, the sooner the air can come back in the room and we can have broader participation again. Every time he gets on one of his pathological quests to prove his intellectual superiority (which spans every conceivable topic...in the name of science, of course), we lose contributors. I think we're down to about 10 regular contributors at this point. Ninny, you've got plenty to add around here, but you just don't know when to stop.

 

I've learned my lesson. Thanks!

[Kingcat990]

I actually prefer a really heavy driver. Not sold on the adjustable drivers. All of my best rounds and drives have always come from bonded drivers. Although my Yonex i-ezone 10° has just been a phenomenal driver. Very predictable. Looking forward to the MP driver.

 

 

[b.helts]

I actually prefer a really heavy driver. Not sold on the adjustable drivers. All of my best rounds and drives have always come from bonded drivers. Although my Yonex i-ezone 10° has just been a phenomenal driver. Very predictable. Looking forward to the MP driver.

 

The MP looks fantastic. I know they are Japan only, but if I can get a chance to hit one and like it, I'll find one.

[kaaayelll]

I'm with you on the heavy driver head preference. Around 207g is perfect for me and preferably smaller than 400cc. I've got some lovely JDM heads, but they are mostly too light without adding some weight with hot melt, polyfill, or something else. Speaking of which, I need to get on that...

[Kingcat990]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

[db2]

Shouldn't you be at the driving range testing your Masdas? Some of us are waiting to hear what you think.

[DeNinny]

Hey NRJ, those mechanical adapters add more weight to the head, no? They also change the CG location of the head too, relatively speaking.

 

They account for that when they design the drivers. :)

 

 

I'm not saying this is at all bad, it just highlights how trivial "CG location" and "clubhead MOI as it rotates around the CG" are with respect to the marketing of their "importance". Prior to the implementation of adapters, the industry push was to keep making the head lighter and club longer and then all of a sudden these heavier adapters come along and reset the head weight to be heavier again. LOL for convenience, all of a sudden weight and weight distribution become secondary to the "design".

 

If you're talking about the amount of CG movement involved in things like MWT, yes, it's fairly trivial. Though it *does* have some effect. Anecdotally speaking, a friend of mine with a fade just moved his R15 weights to the "both in the heel" location, and his fade straightened out. Insert sample size caveat here, lol.

 

 

My bigger, but still minor, issue with adapters are that they are a mechanical "seal" (if you will) and typically glue seals are better. With a mechanical seal there will be (theoretically) some slippage between the two connected objects as compared to them being glued together. But this is admittedly nitpicky on my part.

 

Understandable. Most (all?) of the adapters all have something physical about their design to keep them from slipping. Like the notches on the Cobra adapter and top of the hosel. Still mechanical, but at least they're not relying purely on the force applied by the torque wrench to keep things in place. ;)

 

It maybe isn't ideal, but IMHO the positives outweigh the negatives. Being able to unplug a shaft and replace it with another in less than a minute, or being able to theoretically fit multiple golfers with the same clubhead by merely using different adapter positions, is nothing short of amazing.

 

Folks who need an open clubhead can now have it without having to resort to extremes. Folks who need a closed clubhead can now have it, again without having to resort to extremes.

 

It's a beautiful thing. :)

 

I guess there's little mystery on where I stand, eh? LOL

 

It's so refreshing to have a DISCUSSION with you on this topic! There is a reason I addressed the point to you and not anybody else. It's because I know we can share our differing views without it resorting to t** for tat nitpicky arguments and because you clearly read what I state and respond without making any assumptions as to the point(s) I'm making. LOL to ASSume makes an Word not allowed out of 'u' and 'me'!

 

So as to adjusting for CG with an adapter, how do you know that for sure? I have never seen the technology that would counterweight the adapter weight. Maybe there is some weighting inside the head near the toe with adapter drivers, but I can't see it. By adding weight near the hosel, the adapter is going to pull the CG closer to it, and...LOL...wait for it...by the laws of physics, there needs to be some counterweight on the other side of the CG so that it will bring it back away from closer to the hosel, and I simply don't see this in adapter driver designs. And you know that I am OPEN to the possibility that this has been accounted for and so if you could illuminate me on your logic that CG location is in fact "accounted for", I would appreciate it. Although LOL later you conceded the point anyway that there is an anecdotal observation of it. (And remember, I was also making the point that it may not matter anyway.)

 

Here is my take on it: the effect of adding the heavier adapter pulls the CG in closer to the hosel much like the "draw" setting of an adjustable weight driver where you can set weight at the toe for a fade and set it at the hosel for a draw. So just for arguments sake, let's ASSUME that the CG isn't counterweighted. That driver with adapter is nothing more than the adjustable driver 'stuck' at the draw setting with the weight closer to the hosel.

 

And I'm NOT saying this is a bad thing nor permanent issue. A golfer will simply adjust to that adapted driver's new CG location and maybe have a slightly different swing/swing timing with it than one without the adapter. No big deal. (Which was my point that CG location isn't as significant as we think.)

 

And the bigger picture of what I'm getting at is that with the heavier adapter, the 460cc titanium driver head MUST be made lighter somehow to keep the SW the same as a glued driver. So now a manufacturer can put more plastic or carbon fiber or anything lighter and cheaper and weaker than titanium in the head and save on the cost because titanium is VERY expensive relative to the other head materials.

 

This to me is entirely why manufacturers are trying so hard to make a clubhead with less and less titanium. Now they would NEVER market this, instead they would tie it to some (often pointless) "science" but at the end of the day they haven't improved any driver performance over older all titanium 460cc drivers. They just ended up using cheaper materials to sell the club at the same price as before!

 

With or without the "technology" advancing, today's drivers are being made with less titanium as before. And LOL I'm seeing posts about how the plastic or carbon fiber heads are having manufacturing issues like the plastic separating or bulging from the stress of impact. These weren't issues back when heads were all titanium!

 

Now am I saying this was the grand and devious plot behind adapter drivers? Heck no, but I am saying that cost is driving the "technology" of clubs more so than the supposed "advancement" of it due to a real and significant change. Adapters are just a bit player in the bigger picture of it.

 

Same thing is happening with blades made from (more) expensive forged carbon steel. Instead manufacturers want you believing that there is "better" iron "technology" out there but at the end of the day it is at best the same performance but with cheaper materials like cast carbon steel and plastic/carbon fiber.

 

Biggie nailed it earlier. It is amazing how perspectives change from challenging perceptions. HALF-TRUTH carney manufacturers only want the ignorant golfer to blindly accept their presented "science".

[DeNinny]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

 

Perhaps it is the all titanium head driver that you prefer. They happen to be heavier, all other things equal, than today's half plastic heads. But also they will feel more solid at impact and likely last longer after prolonged use. Just a thought.

 

And yes, what is going on with those Masdas? They are a beautiful design. I'm waiting for your validation that they are as good, if not better, as they look!

[Bigmean]

I started lead taping my driver and 3 wood and I really like the feel of the head with it. I think I had D6 on driver last I put it on a scale but I just sorta do it to feel. Again, driver is my weak point, but what sucks is my good drives are good, but I could go 9/14 fairways and 3 of those 5 misses could be double bogey. My real problems are when I miss, I miss double cross big and while I am short by wrx standards, I am legit 265-300+ conditions dependent so I am long enough to get in real trouble with direction misses. Just wanted to clarify that before someone reads it and says "why would I want to put tape on a driver when the guy who always says how much they suck at driving says he likes it", which is a fair point LOL.

 

 

 

Shouldn't you be at the driving range testing your Masdas? Some of us are waiting to hear what you think.

 

Yeah dude WTF?

[Kingcat990]

Well, I've slept at work the last 4 nights due to a scheduled shutdown. Next Wednesday I'll be going out. I'm not even taking them to the range, they're going straight to the course.

 

Wednesday night I'll have feedback.

[DeNinny]

Well, I've slept at work the last 4 nights due to a scheduled shutdown. Next Wednesday I'll be going out. I'm not even taking them to the range, they're going straight to the course.

 

Wednesday night I'll have feedback.

 

Ooh going straight to the course is soooo Blade and heavy driver head user like. It's really the only way to break in a sexy set of blades. Skip the handjob on the range and hit that $hit hard on the course like a pimp Blade user!

 

Based on what I see in the design and assuming the steel is top quality, I'm going to predict good chills up and down your spine and hands and unstoppable smiles from every pure strike with those.

 

I feel you re: plant shutdowns. I have them too at my work and they are always on weekends and holidays. And often on excellent days to golf.

[Sir edward of putternut]

Just got my muirfield irons in this afternoon And holy rabies are those small heads...really really small. Even side by side with the hogan pc they were significantly tiny..i really excited to try them out, weather permitting (also got an m2 3 wood but more excited about the irons).

With all the chatter about the nippons latetly i took out my 120s and 130s. Still odd to me the 130 is lighter than the 120....does not feel that way too me at all...i almost think the 120 stiffs feel whippy while the 130s feel just great.

 

First side by side are 2 9 irons

Second is obviously an mp 64 3 iron beside the murifield 5

[Sir edward of putternut]

Pics

[aliikane]

I have the Taylormade MBs. Great blades. Excellent feel and well balanced. Slightly larger head with a touch more offset than old school blades. Sole is thin with average bounce. My problem with them is I haven't found a good shaft for them. They came with the KBS Tour 120 but I found that shaft to be too active for me. Just reshafted with the KBS C-Tapers but not sure I like them either. I keep going back to the original Dynamic Gold S300.

[Sir Slicealot]

Well Sir Ed, you're either going to hit the ball on the sweet spot, or miss it completely. That's a bigggg golf ball you got there. LOL

[Bigmean]

Sir Edward, the 130s are like 5 grams heavier than 120s...and I am in love with them.

 

The 125s are heavier, but those are a lot less common. I had 'them in a set once, and l don't recall being enommored with them as I am the 130.

[Nard_S]

I actually prefer a really heavy driver. Not sold on the adjustable drivers. All of my best rounds and drives have always come from bonded drivers. Although my Yonex i-ezone 10° has just been a phenomenal driver. Very predictable. Looking forward to the MP driver.

 

The MP looks fantastic. I know they are Japan only, but if I can get a chance to hit one and like it, I'll find one.

 

It's a beauty, I have the the MP 650 metals and probably will end up getting the Type II someday, the shaft is really the hard choice.

[bodhi555]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

 

That sucks - as I have a Covert, do I have to trade the blades in for some shovels?

 

I do have a Powerbilt TPS Persimmon in my practice bag, I think my handicap might suffer if I use it all the time though :)

[kaaayelll]

Those Muirfields are great heads. Enjoy them!

[kadillackountry]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

 

That sucks - as I have a Covert, do I have to trade the blades in for some shovels?

 

I do have a Powerbilt TPS Persimmon in my practice bag, I think my handicap might suffer if I use it all the time though :)

I'd argue that the science of a driver is still being perfected, while the science behind an iron has already been perfected with the blade.

[MillerLowLife]

I have the Taylormade MBs. Great blades. Excellent feel and well balanced. Slightly larger head with a touch more offset than old school blades. Sole is thin with average bounce. My problem with them is I haven't found a good shaft for them. They came with the KBS Tour 120 but I found that shaft to be too active for me. Just reshafted with the KBS C-Tapers but not sure I like them either. I keep going back to the original Dynamic Gold S300.

 

I agree that it's a great blade as I play the same ones. S300 is a great shaft but you should look into Nippon for sure. It'll be tough to test them out but I took the risk and got a set of pulls through my WTB add here based on information I gathered on the site. There are a couple threads about them.

[bodhi555]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

 

That sucks - as I have a Covert, do I have to trade the blades in for some shovels?

 

I do have a Powerbilt TPS Persimmon in my practice bag, I think my handicap might suffer if I use it all the time though :)

I'd argue that the science of a driver is still being perfected, while the science behind an iron has already been perfected with the blade.

 

Phew, I can keep the blades and the Red Mist in tandem then :)

[kadillackountry]

Alright. So we are in agreement. This is the blade users and heavy driver thread. Any deviation of heavy drivers makes you one of them perimeter weighted vageena types.

 

Today is the launch of a new beginning for this thread.

 

That sucks - as I have a Covert, do I have to trade the blades in for some shovels?

 

I do have a Powerbilt TPS Persimmon in my practice bag, I think my handicap might suffer if I use it all the time though :)

I'd argue that the science of a driver is still being perfected, while the science behind an iron has already been perfected with the blade.

 

Phew, I can keep the blades and the Red Mist in tandem then :)

Though I've never hit a driver as well as an older Cleveland Launcher 330 that I gamed about 10 years ago. Dropped bombs with that. Famously (albeit with a slight breeze on my back), I hit a ball so far with that club that the head pro at my Dad's course didn't even think it was possible to get that far. My bright shining moment in a career of "average" golf. Had an 8 iron into a par 5 from the first cut of rough (because it doglegs for the traditional 3rd shot)...at least a 370 drive on a course that got almost no roll due to constant moisture.