Where are you playing tomorrow - Chicago (Round2)

[stg099]

Yep, cart path only. When walking down the fairways, your footprints drew significant water, otherwise I would have walked it. Only had one drive actually roll out, on the 18th of port, as that fairway drains into the lake pretty readily. The rest stopped dead as soon as they hit the fairway. Greens were in beautiful shape though and were far firmer than I would have expected with all the rain this past week. the pace of play left MUCH to be desired, but they didn't have any rangers out since it was so early in the season. it was every bit of a 5 hour round due to slow foursomes ahead and cart path only.

[Argonne69]

Yep, cart path only. When walking down the fairways, your footprints drew significant water, otherwise I would have walked it. Only had one drive actually roll out, on the 18th of port, as that fairway drains into the lake pretty readily. The rest stopped dead as soon as they hit the fairway. Greens were in beautiful shape though and were far firmer than I would have expected with all the rain this past week. the pace of play left MUCH to be desired, but they didn't have any rangers out since it was so early in the season. it was every bit of a 5 hour round due to slow foursomes ahead and cart path only.

 

No surprise there. Having been built on a clay capped dump, the course has no real drainage. The greens stay in good shape because they're elevated for the most part. I normally play there at least a half dozen times at the end of the season, but last year I played only one round because it was week after week of cart path only. No thanks. I walked the course once when it was CPO, but they do a piss poor job grooming it for walkers. There are no walking paths mowed between the tee boxes and fairways, and none between the greens and the next tee box. Slogging through the knee-high wet grass was a chore. It's obvious they don't want to encourage walking, which is a pity, because it's a nice layout.

 

After they finish the bunker renovation, I hope they consider redoing the drainage in the low areas. They lose a ton of revenue when it's cart path only, and given the rain we've been having over the past few years, I don't think that's going to change.

[stg099]

Yep, cart path only. When walking down the fairways, your footprints drew significant water, otherwise I would have walked it. Only had one drive actually roll out, on the 18th of port, as that fairway drains into the lake pretty readily. The rest stopped dead as soon as they hit the fairway. Greens were in beautiful shape though and were far firmer than I would have expected with all the rain this past week. the pace of play left MUCH to be desired, but they didn't have any rangers out since it was so early in the season. it was every bit of a 5 hour round due to slow foursomes ahead and cart path only.

 

No surprise there. Having been built on a clay capped dump, the course has no real drainage. The greens stay in good shape because they're elevated for the most part. I normally play there at least a half dozen times at the end of the season, but last year I played only one round because it was week after week of cart path only. No thanks. I walked the course once when it was CPO, but they do a piss poor job grooming it for walkers. There are no walking paths mowed between the tee boxes and fairways, and none between the greens and the next tee box. Slogging through the knee-high wet grass was a chore. It's obvious they don't want to encourage walking, which is a pity, because it's a nice layout.

 

After they finish the bunker renovation, I hope they consider redoing the drainage in the low areas. They lose a ton of revenue when it's cart path only, and given the rain we've been having over the past few years, I don't think that's going to change.

 

I hear ya, There's a lot to love about the course and facilities, but unfortunately I've found that much like most Muni's around us, if you're not out before 7am in peak season, you're in for a 5+ hour round. I don't mind so much when it's a $30 golfnow hot deal at Maple Meadows or something, but when I paid $109 full fare for Harborside, I expect to be done in 4 hours tops and that just isn't ever the case. I really only play there spring and fall when they have discounted rates and I can rationalize the shortcomings of the place due to the discount. Makes a lot of sense on the drainage due to the clay caps that you mention, didn't think about that before.

[Argonne69]

Yep, cart path only. When walking down the fairways, your footprints drew significant water, otherwise I would have walked it. Only had one drive actually roll out, on the 18th of port, as that fairway drains into the lake pretty readily. The rest stopped dead as soon as they hit the fairway. Greens were in beautiful shape though and were far firmer than I would have expected with all the rain this past week. the pace of play left MUCH to be desired, but they didn't have any rangers out since it was so early in the season. it was every bit of a 5 hour round due to slow foursomes ahead and cart path only.

 

No surprise there. Having been built on a clay capped dump, the course has no real drainage. The greens stay in good shape because they're elevated for the most part. I normally play there at least a half dozen times at the end of the season, but last year I played only one round because it was week after week of cart path only. No thanks. I walked the course once when it was CPO, but they do a piss poor job grooming it for walkers. There are no walking paths mowed between the tee boxes and fairways, and none between the greens and the next tee box. Slogging through the knee-high wet grass was a chore. It's obvious they don't want to encourage walking, which is a pity, because it's a nice layout.

 

After they finish the bunker renovation, I hope they consider redoing the drainage in the low areas. They lose a ton of revenue when it's cart path only, and given the rain we've been having over the past few years, I don't think that's going to change.

 

I hear ya, There's a lot to love about the course and facilities, but unfortunately I've found that much like most Muni's around us, if you're not out before 7am in peak season, you're in for a 5+ hour round. I don't mind so much when it's a $30 golfnow hot deal at Maple Meadows or something, but when I paid $109 full fare for Harborside, I expect to be done in 4 hours tops and that just isn't ever the case. I really only play there spring and fall when they have discounted rates and I can rationalize the shortcomings of the place due to the discount. Makes a lot of sense on the drainage due to the clay caps that you mention, didn't think about that before.

 

Someone also mentioned a while back that they have to overwater the turf to keep it green. Again, given the construction on an old dump, the soil doesn't retain water, so it's more or less continuously watered.

 

I've had decent luck in the past 2 years finishing in ~4:15 when starting between 8 and 8:30 am. I've certainly kvetched enough about the slow play in the previous years that it might have actually done some good. Of course, when it's cart paths only it's a death march.

[DavePelz4]

Has anyone driven past the redesign of Oak Meadows lately? The recent rains have been the first good test of the drainage and Greg Martin is either thinking "Hell yeah" or "uh....WT*."

[dhartmann34]

Has anyone driven past the redesign of Oak Meadows lately? The recent rains have been the first good test of the drainage and Greg Martin is either thinking "Hell yeah" or "uh....WT*."

I did Sunday. Looks great from the highway. Not sure how it is after the past few days of rain though. I hope it worked.

[geochitown]

yes they have been,

With the rains up until now, they had a pretty good margin before any of the playing surfaces would get flooded.

 

Current moisture might push it

 

I think hole 7 is the lowest point on the course (the old #3)

[Dickos]

From Crain's online this afternoon:

 

South Side golf course set for $1.7 million renovation

 

 

 

 

The 36-hole, publicly owned Harborside International Golf Center is getting a face-lift as the company that manages it looks to cut maintenance costs and boost revenue.

Northbrook-based KemperSports Management today announced it is beginning a $1.7 million renovation of the pair of courses between Lake Calumet and the Bishop Ford Freeway that will cut in half the acreage of bunkers on the links.

 

The project, which will be done in three phases, is designed to improve drainage on the course and lower the frequency of washouts after it rains. The 14 acres of bunkers on the course were difficult and costly to maintain for KemperSports, which leases the courses from the Illinois International Port District. At least 27 of the holds at Harborside will remain open during the renovation.

"We are confident that this renovation will set Harborside International on a path for continued success," KemperSports CEO Steve Skinner said in a statement. "This project will solidify Harborside's reputation as the finest-conditioned public golf course in the city."

Putting money into the course renovation comes two years after KemperSports made a similar investment to upgrade its clubhouse and dining room.

Reducing maintenance costs and maximizing profit at the 22-year-old course is key for KemperSports, which pays the Port District a management fee of at least $100,000 per year to run the facility. That minimum fee is guaranteed even if KemperSports falls short of it in course profits.

REVENUE SHARING

The arrangement prevents the Port District from taking a loss on the course, but it can make more than the $100,000 fee if profit exceeds that figure.

If it does exceed $100,000, KemperSports gets a management fee of 3 percent of the course's revenue. If the course's profit exceeds $100,000 plus 3 percent of revenue, the next 3 percent of revenue beyond that goes into capital investments at the course.

KemperSports then gets another bonus equal to 1 percent of revenue if there are profits leftover after that. And the Port District and the company evenly split revenue beyond that.

KemperSports originally struck the 10-year deal in 2013 with the Port District, the city-state agency that oversees the Southeast Side complex used by companies that use Chicago's waterway system to transport bulk commodities. Last year, the two sides extended the deal by 10 years, which means Kemper will run the course through 2033.

The company last year paid the Port District around $400,000 in profit and $164,000 for capital investments, according to a KemperSports spokesman. That's a far cry from the annual losses the Port District endured running Harborside before privatizing its operations.

The agency lost $2.4 million on course operations between 2009 and 2011, according to its financial statements.

The spruce-up for Harborside also comes as a nearby public golf course that may compete with it for customers heads toward its own overhaul.

The Chicago Park District is pushing to transform its Jackson Park and South Shore golf courses along Lake Michigan into an 18-hole championship course designed by Tiger Woods with a $30 million renovation. The city even formed a new nonprofit organization, the Chicago Park Golf Alliance, to raise money for the effort to redo the links 7 miles north of Harborside.

[DavePelz4]

From Crain's online this afternoon:

 

South Side golf course set for $1.7 million renovation

 

 

 

 

The 36-hole, publicly owned Harborside International Golf Center is getting a face-lift as the company that manages it looks to cut maintenance costs and boost revenue.

Northbrook-based KemperSports Management today announced it is beginning a $1.7 million renovation of the pair of courses between Lake Calumet and the Bishop Ford Freeway that will cut in half the acreage of bunkers on the links.

 

The project, which will be done in three phases, is designed to improve drainage on the course and lower the frequency of washouts after it rains. The 14 acres of bunkers on the course were difficult and costly to maintain for KemperSports, which leases the courses from the Illinois International Port District. At least 27 of the holds at Harborside will remain open during the renovation.

"We are confident that this renovation will set Harborside International on a path for continued success," KemperSports CEO Steve Skinner said in a statement. "This project will solidify Harborside's reputation as the finest-conditioned public golf course in the city."

Putting money into the course renovation comes two years after KemperSports made a similar investment to upgrade its clubhouse and dining room.

Reducing maintenance costs and maximizing profit at the 22-year-old course is key for KemperSports, which pays the Port District a management fee of at least $100,000 per year to run the facility. That minimum fee is guaranteed even if KemperSports falls short of it in course profits.

REVENUE SHARING

The arrangement prevents the Port District from taking a loss on the course, but it can make more than the $100,000 fee if profit exceeds that figure.

If it does exceed $100,000, KemperSports gets a management fee of 3 percent of the course's revenue. If the course's profit exceeds $100,000 plus 3 percent of revenue, the next 3 percent of revenue beyond that goes into capital investments at the course.

KemperSports then gets another bonus equal to 1 percent of revenue if there are profits leftover after that. And the Port District and the company evenly split revenue beyond that.

KemperSports originally struck the 10-year deal in 2013 with the Port District, the city-state agency that oversees the Southeast Side complex used by companies that use Chicago's waterway system to transport bulk commodities. Last year, the two sides extended the deal by 10 years, which means Kemper will run the course through 2033.

The company last year paid the Port District around $400,000 in profit and $164,000 for capital investments, according to a KemperSports spokesman. That's a far cry from the annual losses the Port District endured running Harborside before privatizing its operations.

The agency lost $2.4 million on course operations between 2009 and 2011, according to its financial statements.

The spruce-up for Harborside also comes as a nearby public golf course that may compete with it for customers heads toward its own overhaul.

The Chicago Park District is pushing to transform its Jackson Park and South Shore golf courses along Lake Michigan into an 18-hole championship course designed by Tiger Woods with a $30 million renovation. The city even formed a new nonprofit organization, the Chicago Park Golf Alliance, to raise money for the effort to redo the links 7 miles north of Harborside.

 

Helluva first post after 3 years of observing!

[Argonne69]

Wow. So how mismanaged was the facility? Going from over $800,000 a year in losses to a $400,000 profit is some turn around, no? I know they raised rates, but that can't account for the difference. More banquets? Cheaper supplies through bulk purchases?

[adschus]

Have harborside always had leagues and those early 5:30a special tee times?

[Argonne69]

Have harborside always had leagues and those early 5:30a special tee times?

 

I didn't know raccoons played golf. Is the sun even up at 5:30 am?

 

Yeah, they've had various leagues for years I believe.

[ldchristopher]

Have harborside always had leagues and those early 5:30a special tee times?

 

I didn't know raccoons played golf. Is the sun even up at 5:30 am?

 

Yeah, they've had various leagues for years I believe.

In Chicago in July the sun comes up at between 5:19-5:43 AM. On weekends in the summer, I book one of the first three or four tee times whenever possible. Generally, that means getting a pre-6:00 AM time. It's the only way to play in three hours or less and avoid waiting on every tee. Plus, I can get a bite to eat in between rounds and can grab a second time at around 11:30 after the rush has passed. Honestly, I don't know how you guys can book times between 8:00-10:00 AM and deal with waiting on every shot. All it takes is a few hackers or a group that thinks they're on tour and needs to take two dozen practice swings and mark balls that are 3 feet from the hole for rounds to end up averaging 5 hours.

[Argonne69]

Have harborside always had leagues and those early 5:30a special tee times?

 

I didn't know raccoons played golf. Is the sun even up at 5:30 am?

 

Yeah, they've had various leagues for years I believe.

In Chicago in July the sun comes up at between 5:19-5:43 AM. On weekends in the summer, I book one of the first three or four tee times whenever possible. Generally, that means getting a pre-6:00 AM time. It's the only way to play in three hours or less and avoid waiting on every tee. Plus, I can get a bite to eat in between rounds and can grab a second time at around 11:30 after the rush has passed. Honestly, I don't know how you guys can book times between 8:00-10:00 AM and deal with waiting on every shot. All it takes is a few hackers or a group that thinks they're on tour and needs to take two dozen practice swings and mark balls that are 3 feet from the hole for rounds to end up averaging 5 hours.

 

Lol. 'Depends on the course. I've had good luck in the past two years with tee times ranging from 8 to 8:30 am during mid-season. Of course, we're talking 4 hours or so, not 3 hours.

[Argonne69]

OK, so the article says that 27 holes will be open at Harborside during the bunker project. They play up the StarPort routing. So what are they going to do with the other 9 holes? I assume StarPort is only for the start of the season, and then they'll open the other 9, and start groups on 2 nines like they do at Cantigny?

[zer0]

Sweet, can't wait to play $160 round of golf at Harborside after the renovation!

[Argonne69]

Sweet, can't wait to play $160 round of golf at Harborside after the renovation!

 

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? They turned a profit last year, and perhaps the improved conditions will bring in more business. I have to imagine that rates will go up, but how much? They had rate increases in 2014 and 2015, but remained flat last season.

[zer0]

Considering they already had an extremely inflated self worth and consistently raised prices when the course was beat up and sand-less I think it's a safe assumption that they will hike the prices considerably after the renovation.

 

They'll cite the cost of the renovation while at the same time claiming they are now the premiere public golf destination in the Chicago area, ahead of Dubs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went as high as $150. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went higher.

[DavePelz4]

Considering they already had an extremely inflated self worth and consistently raised prices when the course was beat up and sand-less I think it's a safe assumption that they will hike the prices considerably after the renovation.

 

They'll cite the cost of the renovation while at the same time claiming they are now the premiere public golf destination in the Chicago area, ahead of Dubs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went as high as $150. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went higher.

 

It doesn't hold a candle to The Highlands of Elgin...at less than half the price.

[zer0]

Considering they already had an extremely inflated self worth and consistently raised prices when the course was beat up and sand-less I think it's a safe assumption that they will hike the prices considerably after the renovation.

 

They'll cite the cost of the renovation while at the same time claiming they are now the premiere public golf destination in the Chicago area, ahead of Dubs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went as high as $150. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went higher.

 

It doesn't hold a candle to The Highlands of Elgin...at less than half the price.

 

Is there any course in Illinois that can stack up to HOE when you factor in price? Might not be too many courses in the whole USA that can.

[dhartmann34]

Considering they already had an extremely inflated self worth and consistently raised prices when the course was beat up and sand-less I think it's a safe assumption that they will hike the prices considerably after the renovation.

 

They'll cite the cost of the renovation while at the same time claiming they are now the premiere public golf destination in the Chicago area, ahead of Dubs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went as high as $150. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went higher.

 

It doesn't hold a candle to The Highlands of Elgin...at less than half the price.

 

Is there any course in Illinois that can stack up to HOE when you factor in price? Might not be too many courses in the whole USA that can.

I love highlands. I think Shepherd's Crook, Oak Grove and Blackstone are up there as well. Shepherd's for $25 walking at 2pm on a weekend is one of my favorite grabs. We tend to get a little better value here up north though.

[DavePelz4]

Considering they already had an extremely inflated self worth and consistently raised prices when the course was beat up and sand-less I think it's a safe assumption that they will hike the prices considerably after the renovation.

 

They'll cite the cost of the renovation while at the same time claiming they are now the premiere public golf destination in the Chicago area, ahead of Dubs. I wouldn't be surprised if they went as high as $150. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went higher.

 

It doesn't hold a candle to The Highlands of Elgin...at less than half the price.

 

Is there any course in Illinois that can stack up to HOE when you factor in price? Might not be too many courses in the whole USA that can.

 

Oak Grove is right up there...Whitetail Ridge is a great track/value...Blackstone...

[geochitown]

maybe Oak Meadows will give HoE a good run for the money...

[dhartmann34]

maybe Oak Meadows will give HoE a good run for the money...

It'll be interesting to see the new prices for the redo.

[DavePelz4]

maybe Oak Meadows will give HoE a good run for the money...

It'll be interesting to see the new prices for the redo.

 

What's your guess on the new rate?

[dhartmann34]

maybe Oak Meadows will give HoE a good run for the money...

It'll be interesting to see the new prices for the redo.

 

What's your guess on the new rate?

I honestly don't know but I'd guess in the$75-$85 range for weekends.

[geochitown]

I've heard $89 w/ cart as peak rate.

There would be a discount for walking

[Waterboy]

It's always the demand that drives up those green fees. Now we know the demand for harborside isn't much in this thread but when the course is there to provide something close to get to for he residents of Chicago, they are going to charge what people will pay.

 

Oak Grove gets very little play compared to a western burb course so the rate is way less. People will drive to oak meadow, a fraction of that will drive to Harvard.

 

I'm a fan being close to some of these outlier courses that have the low rates

[DavePelz4]

For those who don't mind a few miles for their value, Prairie View in Byron and Timber Pointe are high on the list...

[dhartmann34]

For those who don't mind a few miles for their value, Prairie View in Byron and Timber Pointe are high on the list...

I LOVE both of those courses!! We usually play them each a couple of times a year. PV in the morning and TP in the afternoon. Sometimes we mix in Aldeen, but that course seems a tad overrated in my book.